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Apple's new Fusion Drive debuts in latest iMacs, Mac minis - Page 3

post #81 of 115

Because if its an OS independent hybrid drive that comes in a standard form factor, a commodity item, it could be used to upgrade other machines.

post #82 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary54 View Post

Because if its an OS independent hybrid drive that comes in a standard form factor, a commodity item, it could be used to upgrade other machines.

IF YOU WANT A FUCKING HYBRID DRVE INSTALL A FUCKING HYBRID DRIVE. APPLE DOESN'T HAVE TO PUT ONE IN YOUR HANDS FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO USE ONE IN YOUR MAC. IF YOU CAN"T FIGURE HOW TO BUY ONE ONLINE THEN YOU SURELY CAN"T FIGURE OUT HOW TO HAVE ONE INSTALLED.

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post #83 of 115

You're making me laugh now. LOL Get a grip. I am a parts person. A builder. An upgrader. I shop for parts all over the place. You want to see my parts bill for the last year?

 

Reinventing the wheel = Taking a commodity connector or part which in reality does nothing more or less than a standard form factor and remaking it so it can only be used in the model it was delivered in or connecting to the Apple specific device it was designed for. ie: The ADC 

 

Now YOU described this drive as a standard form factor self contained unit functioning via its own firmware. Which more or less describes a drive unit like the Momentus XT with more flash memory. Its functional operation sounds to me like an XT with more flash memory. I do not know if that is the case or not, nor do I think you have any basis at this moment of time for making that or any other assertion.

 

We really have to wait and find out.


Edited by Gary54 - 10/27/12 at 1:00pm
post #84 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary54 View Post

You're making me laugh now. LOL

We now know your feigned ignorance is you trolling. My fault for thinking you were actually curious. My mistake. You win.
Edited by SolipsismX - 10/27/12 at 12:56pm

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post #85 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary54 
Just so, it was just announced. Calm down. You are making the statement of what it is. I don't know what it is and what it isn't yet. I'm waiting to find out.

I said "sounds like a Momentus XT" It does.
 
Have you used it? Had you hands on it? Read the reviews of the testers? Its strengths and limitations? Form factor? What if anything else it can be adapted to?

Bare Feats doesn't appear to know what it is or what it isn't yet. iFixit has no tear down review yet. How is it you are so adamant what it is and what it isn't yet?

There was a link posted earlier:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6406/understanding-apples-fusion-drive

It appears to be the same blade SSD seen in the Air and MBP combined with a standard hard drive. They are used as a single drive though.

The caching means that one of the slowest actions standard hard drives do (random writes) should go much faster. They can write many small files to a fast cache and then sync it to the main drive without slowing down the user.

The SSD having the OS and apps installed already immediately gives users fast performance and for a lot of people, they might never have more than 128GB of files so their experience should be as good as using an SSD.

Devices like the Seagate Hybrid only have 4-16GB of flash memory so don't offer anywhere near the benefit of 128GB SSD.

It's more like Intel's SRT:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/248828/how_to_setup_intel_smart_response_ssd_caching_technology.html

except you don't have to set it up yourself (driver installs etc) and Intel's is limited to 64GB.

There are limitations with Apple's one too though. It only supports one extra partition and Bootcamp isn't supported at all on the 3TB version.

As for using the solution in another machine, they could have built it as a single drive but it would have been a non-standard form factor. Hybrid drives only have a small cache. Plus, you might be able to use the SSD blade with an adaptor (mSATA to SATA) and enable Intel's SRT.
post #86 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


There was a link posted earlier:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6406/understanding-apples-fusion-drive
It appears to be the same blade SSD seen in the Air and MBP combined with a standard hard drive. They are used as a single drive though.
The caching means that one of the slowest actions standard hard drives do (random writes) should go much faster. They can write many small files to a fast cache and then sync it to the main drive without slowing down the user.
The SSD having the OS and apps installed already immediately gives users fast performance and for a lot of people, they might never have more than 128GB of files so their experience should be as good as using an SSD.
Devices like the Seagate Hybrid only have 4-16GB of flash memory so don't offer anywhere near the benefit of 128GB SSD.
It's more like Intel's SRT:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/248828/how_to_setup_intel_smart_response_ssd_caching_technology.html
except you don't have to set it up yourself (driver installs etc) and Intel's is limited to 64GB.
There are limitations with Apple's one too though. It only supports one extra partition and Bootcamp isn't supported at all on the 3TB version.
As for using the solution in another machine, they could have built it as a single drive but it would have been a non-standard form factor. Hybrid drives only have a small cache. Plus, you might be able to use the SSD blade with an adaptor (mSATA to SATA) and enable Intel's SRT.

Thank you! Now we are getting somewhere. So its two separate physical parts joined as a single volume via software. A proprietary non commodity item. All I wanted to know.


Edited by Gary54 - 10/27/12 at 1:50pm
post #87 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


IF YOU WANT A FUCKING HYBRID DRVE INSTALL A FUCKING HYBRID DRIVE. APPLE DOESN'T HAVE TO PUT ONE IN YOUR HANDS FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO USE ONE IN YOUR MAC. IF YOU CAN"T FIGURE HOW TO BUY ONE ONLINE THEN YOU SURELY CAN"T FIGURE OUT HOW TO HAVE ONE INSTALLED.

As an FYI ... I already have a 512 SSD in my MBP. Which I bought and put in myself without paying Apples highway robbery prices. (Oh ..did I mention I got my A+ and MCSE Cert both back in the dinosaur age?) It works great thanks.


Edited by Gary54 - 10/27/12 at 1:42pm
post #88 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary54 View Post

Thank you! Now we are getting somewhere. So its two separate physical parts joined as a single volume via software. A proprietary non commodity item. All I wanted to know.

1) So you went off half-cocked about how it's just like the Momentus XT without actually looking it up, reading anything about it, or listening to a goddamn thing in this article and thread? For fucks sake man!

2) Also, as previous stated, it's OS level so your whining about it being proprietary means you are complaining about their OS being proprietary. However it's odd that you haven't once cried foul that Seagate's implementation isn't propriety.

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post #89 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Devices like the Seagate Hybrid only have 4-16GB of flash memory so don't offer anywhere near the benefit of 128GB SSD

Or the controller to speed up the operation to SSD speeds minus overhead. I have read about hybrids HDDs with actual SSDs attached, not just NAND for faster performance but I've never read about any actually in production at this point. What MS and Apple are doing looks to be a more well rounded and better option for storage, cost and overall drive performance.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #90 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by polymnia View Post

Well you are clearly way smarter than I am at posting on AppleInsider.
I still think you are wrong in thinking you can outsmart the software/firmware and do a better job of managing the SSD vs. HDD in a new iMac or Mini.
As you seem to think your modification of your MBP is the model of performance tweak, I suppose I'll share my mod as well: my older MacMini that came with a DVD drive was getting long in the tooth, so I got a couple of SSDs & an OWC mounting kit to replace the DVD & HDD drive with a the SSDs. I then RAIDed them together into a striped volume. It's pretty nice and I kept my iTunes on this setup for a while (until I replaced the Mini with a newer model). It performed well, but I knew that there were playlists I listened to often enough to be worth putting on the SSD just to save wear & tear on the HHD not to mention power consumption, but of course, with all my media living on external disks, it was impractical to move only the commonly used files to the SSD.
A 3TB Fusion drive would not just place my OS & Apps on the SSD, but also my most commonly accessed media, and anything else I might not think of that is accessed frequently, I don't know about you, but this is exactly the kind of thing that the machine should handle, not me!
On my iMac where I do my freelance graphic & phot work its doubly true. I don't want to have to manually move projects to the inactive, HDD storage as I complete them. I want the Mac to just figure out the project I've worked on everyday this week should be moved to SSD storage. In fCt, every new file should start life on the SSD & move to HDD if not accessed again soon. Then when my current project has been inactive for a time, the next active project will take its place on the SSD automagically.

I am sure the auto system Apple have is going to be fantastic for many however there are some pretty obvious limitations for video when capturing long HD video clips and editing them in a system that only has a 128 GIG SSD and a 5400 rpm HDD no matter how clever the AI is at where data goes. Obviously in a Mac Pro I used RAID and 7200 RPM drives but more and more folks are using iMacs and MacBook Pros with FCPro X including myself and that's my concern for this. For that a custom set up seems better suited. I think this drive is excellent for average users. The truth of course is this is a stop gap until 1 and 2 TB SSDs are $100 a TB and what would be really nice ... have a at least one that's hot swappable (i.e. in addition to the system boot drive.).
Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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post #91 of 115
If the troll wants a machine made from commodity parts he can buy a Dell.

Problem solved.
post #92 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

If the troll wants a machine made from commodity parts he can buy a Dell.
Problem solved.

If you are referring to me, I build my own thanks.

post #93 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) So you went off half-cocked about how it's just like the Momentus XT without actually looking it up, reading anything about it, or listening to a goddamn thing in this article and thread? For fucks sake man!
2) Also, as previous stated, it's OS level so your whining about it being proprietary means you are complaining about their OS being proprietary. However it's odd that you haven't once cried foul that Seagate's implementation isn't propriety.

For all your noise and bru-ha--ha, it is essentially like a Momentus XT. Which uses an algorithm to  save commonly used files on flash. The only real difference is the capacity of the flash. What distinguishes a proprietary item from a commondity item in context is whether or not the part is available on the open market from a variety of vendors and/or interchangeable with other units.

 

 

Apple apologists are just as fanatically unrealistic and tunnel visioned as MS apologists. They always overlook those profits and profit margins come out of your pocket.

 

There never was any real difference between an Apple or a PC floppy drive other than the software eject for which the Apple floppy drive cost three times as much. Dating back to the special screws they used on the original Mac to keep the owners from getting into the case. Which they still do. Processor Direct Slots. Remember those? Video connectors. Serial cable connectors. The list is a long one that either you are not aware of or or simply turn a blind eye to. That's your issue. not mine.


Edited by Gary54 - 10/27/12 at 9:09pm
post #94 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary54 View Post

If you are referring to me, I build my own thanks.

 

So you're here why?  Ah right...blocked.

post #95 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary54 View Post

For all your noise and bru-ha--ha, it is essentially like a Momentus XT. Which uses an algorithm to  save commonly used files on flash. The only real difference is the capacity of the flash. What distinguishes a proprietary item from a commondity item in context is whether or not the part is available on the open market from a variety of vendors and/or interchangeable with other units.


Apple apologists are just as fanatically unrealistic and tunnel visioned as MS apologists. They always overlook those profits and profit margins come out of your pocket.

There never was any real difference between an Apple or a PC floppy drive other than the software eject for which the Apple floppy drive cost three times as much. Dating back to the special screws they used on the original Mac to keep the owners from getting into the case. Which they still do. Processor Direct Slots. Remember those? Video connectors. Serial cable connectors. The list is a long one that either you are not aware of or or simply turn a blind eye to. That's your issue. not mine.

1) You mean the many clear explanations that you ignored.

2) So now all algorithms are the same, regardless of where or how they are implemented. That's right, Apple has never had done anything on their own¡

3) Yes, anyone who says that Fusion Drive is not the same as NAND caching on a HDD is an Apple apologist, even after they compare it to ReadyBoost released in 2006 on Vista¡

4) Again, you're either choosing not to understand or just trolling to say a sub-OS system is the same as an integrated OS level understanding of what lies will benefit from loading from an SSD and/or caching.

5) No fucking idea why you mean by Apple floppy drives as it's something I, and the rest of the world, have forgotten long ago. PS: Disco is dead.

6) It's great that you can build your HW with "commodity parts" that have absolutely no way for being optimized for a specific task or OS. How is that homemade notebook PC, smartphone, an tablet working out for you?

7) Thank for calling yourself a Dinosaur. I wasn't going to make a personal attack but since you seem to be aware of that 'one' thing, well..,

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #96 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

2) Also, as previous stated, it's OS level so your whining about it being proprietary means you are complaining about their OS being proprietary. However it's odd that you haven't once cried foul that Seagate's implementation isn't propriety.

 

Given it's using features in CoreStorage it's like complaining about features of the file system not being present on other OS's.

 

Honestly, I'd much rather have the data integrity features from zfs and manage my own ssd/hdd allocations but I guess most folks prefer speed over integrity.

post #97 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

7) Thank for calling yourself a Dinosaur. I wasn't going to make a personal attack...

 

8) Or you could stop being pissed about a troll and drop him into your blocked list...

post #98 of 115

I read in some review somewhere, I forget where, that the new 27" iMac's Fusion drive option would have a 256GB SSD. Is that correct?

post #99 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomac View Post

I read in some review somewhere, I forget where, that the new 27" iMac's Fusion drive option would have a 256GB SSD. Is that correct?

I believe the minimum you can order is 128GB with a maximum size of 768GB. I assume they'll have at least one other size in between but 128, 256, 512 and 768 seem more likely.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #100 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I believe the minimum you can order is 128GB with a maximum size of 768GB. I assume they'll have at least one other size in between but 128, 256, 512 and 768 seem more likely.

No, I meant the SSD part of the Fusion drive.

post #101 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I believe the minimum you can order is 128GB with a maximum size of 768GB. I assume they'll have at least one other size in between but 128, 256, 512 and 768 seem more likely.

 

 

And no, the configure option says "or 768GB SSD". no mention of "up to 768GB"
post #102 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomac View Post

No, I meant the SSD part of the Fusion drive.

I'm not following. It's OS software that will create a single logical drive from an SSD+HDD. I think you can go from 128GB-768GB on the SSD and 1TB-3TB on the HDD. There is no separate SSD for the Fusion Drive as it's whatever SSD you choose with your iMac purchase.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #103 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomac View Post

And no, the configure option says "or 768GB SSD". no mention of "up to 768GB"

Interesting. "Configurable to 3TB hard drive, 1TB or 3TB Fusion Drive, or 768GB of flash storage." The wording is suspect as 'to' can refer to an upper limit. In the past they've offered different ranges of drive but perhaps they've found that people only buy the min and max options anyway. I'll heck out the keynote again...

edit: You're right. Fusion only comes as 128GB, it's if it you only get the SSD you can get up to 768GB. That's interesting as I'd think Apple would want to sell people a larger SSD if possible and I'm sure many will think that 128GB isn't enough yet I'm still less than 50% usage on my 80GB SSD, which I pair with a 1TB HDD.
Edited by SolipsismX - 10/28/12 at 7:57am

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post #104 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX 
I'd think Apple would want to sell people a larger SSD if possible and I'm sure many will think that 128GB isn't enough yet I'm still less than 50% usage on my 80GB SSD, which I pair with a 1TB HDD.

You wouldn't really need more than 128GB with Fusion as it mirrors the data on the SSD. If you had 768GB with a 1TB HDD, it would pretty much make the HDD redundant and defeats the cost advantage of the setup. With the 3TB it might make sense but not much reason for Apple to offer it.

I wonder if it will be possible to setup with a 3rd party SSD or if Apple's software will require a 128GB blade drive.
post #105 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I wonder if it will be possible to setup with a 3rd party SSD or if Apple's software will require a 128GB blade drive.

I sure hope so.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #106 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary54 View Post

If you are referring to me, I build my own thanks.

I used to do the same, but I now find the notion that people "build" their own computers hilarious. It's just screwing together half a dozen off the shelf components, connecting a few cables and installing an OS. It's not exactly an avenue for craftsmanship unless you're into metal work.

I used to want to make my own *TX case design out of machined aluminum, but I quickly realized how much work that would take and let it go.

Anyways, you're posting here, complaining about a new feature Apple is adding, but you don't sound like someone that's going to buy any Apple products anyway. So, let's make it direct: why the heck are you here?
Edited by JeffDM - 10/28/12 at 11:23am
post #107 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


You wouldn't really need more than 128GB with Fusion as it mirrors the data on the SSD. If you had 768GB with a 1TB HDD, it would pretty much make the HDD redundant and defeats the cost advantage of the setup. With the 3TB it might make sense but not much reason for Apple to offer it.
I wonder if it will be possible to setup with a 3rd party SSD or if Apple's software will require a 128GB blade drive.

Fusion doesn't mirror the data. It's moved from the HDD to the SSD.

JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #108 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL 
Fusion doesn't mirror the data. It's moved from the HDD to the SSD.

Oh yeah, that's what the Anandtech article says. You get the sum of both storage so in that case, a bigger SSD would be beneficial.

I'm not a fan of the computer doing copies and deletes in the background - duplicates I'm ok with - but I suppose verifying the write should be secure enough.
post #109 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Oh the memories ... I agree we thought nothing of the price of drives back then. It was just so amazing not to need tape! Hey, were you ever tempted by a Cube? I saw a demo of their wavelet technology and my draw dropped then I saw the price and it dropped again. Then I went back to my suite of Media 100 stations and waited for rendering...

 

 

I remember buying my first HD.  Loud as heck, slow as a turtle and all mine for a sweet $500 (or something like that).

 

For a hefty, huge, enormous 20MB.  Yep: M, not G.

 

 

- - - - - -

 

The Fusion pulls in at $250.

 

Any guesses as to what Apple will ask for the 768GB flash drive?  $800?  More?


Edited by Bergermeister - 10/29/12 at 6:47am

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #110 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I am sure the auto system Apple have is going to be fantastic for many however there are some pretty obvious limitations for video when capturing long HD video clips and editing them in a system that only has a 128 GIG SSD and a 5400 rpm HDD no matter how clever the AI is at where data goes. Obviously in a Mac Pro I used RAID and 7200 RPM drives but more and more folks are using iMacs and MacBook Pros with FCPro X including myself and that's my concern for this. For that a custom set up seems better suited. I think this drive is excellent for average users. The truth of course is this is a stop gap until 1 and 2 TB SSDs are $100 a TB and what would be really nice ... have a at least one that's hot swappable (i.e. in addition to the system boot drive.).

 

I finally see your point. I guess I agree, given the current state of the art and your usage profile. When used to stream multiple HD videos through an editing workflow the Fusion Drive would not be as good as the traditional external RAID or a big, expensive SSD. And I see why one would want to have all that self-contained in the internal iMac drive for a reasonable price.

 

For the vast majority of us who are not doing large project FCP work on our iMacs often enough for this to be a major problem, the Fusion Drive is a huge improvement. I think of my typical 10GB of RAW files from a photo shoot, which then spawn maybe 20GB of PSD files all managed in Adobe Lightroom, this would all fit nicely into the 128GB high-speed SSD portion of the Fusion Drive while I work on it. Then it would eventually be moved off the SSD (automatically!) as my next big project replaces it.

 

I kind of feel bad because I will likely be getting a Retina MBP for my next Mac so I'll completely miss the boat on this tech! I'll be manually removing completed files like it's the stone age or something! But I need the mobility as I find myself doing more on-site freelancing these days and I oftentimes don't care for the Mac I am provided, and care even less for copying to & from my USB HDD at the beginning & end of each day's work.

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post #111 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL View Post

Fusion doesn't mirror the data. It's moved from the HDD to the SSD.

...save for the 4GB cache on the SSD.

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post #112 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


You wouldn't really need more than 128GB with Fusion as it mirrors the data on the SSD. If you had 768GB with a 1TB HDD, it would pretty much make the HDD redundant and defeats the cost advantage of the setup. With the 3TB it might make sense but not much reason for Apple to offer it.
I wonder if it will be possible to setup with a 3rd party SSD or if Apple's software will require a 128GB blade drive.

That brings up some VERY interesting possibilities if you could empty your optical bay, or even merge an external thunderbolt SSD option/platter solution into a custom built 'fusion' drive. 

 

iMac 27" 2.8 Quad i7 / 24" Dual Core 3.06 / 17" Macbook Pro Unibody / Mac Mini HTPC / iPhone 4
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post #113 of 115

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #114 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Speed tests are beginning to come out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0M6pv9qAH4&list=UUDlQwv99CovKafGvxyaiNDA&index=1&feature=plcp

Looks nice.

Awesome! Thanks. Now

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #115 of 115

Have a Mac mini on order that should arrive any day now...  

 

BTO: 2.6Ghz, 16GB, 1TB Fusion

 

Got it primarily as a rendering machine and for burning BluRay (send jobs to it and let in churn away while I can still work on my main machine).  If it performs well, I will add another one in a stack formation.  Access is by screen sharing so no cables (it can also serve as a backup machine driving a Cintiq).

 

Will post some results as soon as I can.


Edited by Bergermeister - 11/24/12 at 12:54am

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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