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2014 Mac mini Wishlist - Page 23

post #881 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

I am not purchasing a refurbished Ivy Bridge mini because the HD 4000 is not that big of a jump from the HD 3000. I was not placing all my chips on if a new mini would be announced yesterday because last week I purchased Pokemon X and a 2DS so that has filled the void I was seeking for the time being. : P
Yeah, I'm not sure about people that would recommend Ivy Bridge over Haswell if the person is interested in GPU performance. iris performance can be pretty interesting and really lays to rest many of the integrated GPU woes of the past.
Quote:
I am either looking for Iris 5100 or Iris Pro 5200 (more likely the former since it is closer to my budget, also I want flash storage and 128 GB will suffice for me although 256 GB would be better) or else I will wait to see if they update it for Broadwell.

I'm with you on this one, I'm not sure why the Mini wasn't revved. It is perhaps the machine that could most benefit from Haswell.
post #882 of 1301
Thread Starter 
There's a possibility they are indeed working on a smaller form factor and are saving it for a future release date. That does seem unlikely though. Just do a silent release already. Ah well... I will continue to follow the rumors.
post #883 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

There's a possibility they are indeed working on a smaller form factor and are saving it for a future release date. That does seem unlikely though. Just do a silent release already. Ah well... I will continue to follow the rumors.
What rumors? This is the problem I've heard zip about the Mini, nothing at all about an upgrade nor a replacement. It is sad it is almost the end of the year.
post #884 of 1301

While I'd like it ASAP, it does make sense to upgrade it alongside the new Display and Mac Pro in December.

 

Despite the fact that it's good for the money, Apple's going to need something to deflect the $2999. Mac Pro price, and an upgraded $599. Mini (with perhaps a prosumer $999. model) might do the trick nicely. Otherwise, all we're going to hear on FaceBook and Twitter all day is how expensive Macs are.

 

The only flaw in this thinking is if Apple decides that a more capable Mini is too much competition for the 21" iMac. Personally, I don't know why anyone still buys the 21", since the hardwired RAM and non-accessible HD shortens the life of the machine, which is supposedly for the budget-conscious. IMO, the 27" adds enough value (in screen size, RAM addition, graphics cards and expansion) to make up for the non-replaceable drive.

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post #885 of 1301

The problem I see is that Mac Mini shouldn't be in competition with iMac on any level.  They aren't the same.  iMac is an all in one, which is great if you don't already have awesome displays and see the built-in display in the iMac as pointless, and a waste of money.  The Mac Pro is a revolutionary design, with a huge price tag.  My Mac is long in the tooth and doesn't run any of the currently offered apps with the exception of iTunes.  I'm going to wait until the end of January.  If the Mac Mini isn't updated with the latest and greatest, I'm going to have to buy a current Mac Mini.  I'm two OS's behind now and can not upgrade.  

 

I have to admit that being in this position is rather depressing.  There's no way I need an iMac, laptops also come with screens I don't need, and the Mac Pro is $3k+.  Apparently, I'm in a group of Mac users so inconsequential that Apple sees no reason to bother with us.  I liked Apple more when they weren't this massive company.

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post #886 of 1301

Hopefully maybe a new Mac Mini will come out soon. The new Mac Pro is very expensive and a lot of people cannot afford to buy this now especially in this economy of ours.

post #887 of 1301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

What rumors? This is the problem I've heard zip about the Mini, nothing at all about an upgrade nor a replacement. It is sad it is almost the end of the year.

This and other sites hoping that maybe something leaks. Then again there wasn't much said about the iMac and all of a sudden an update appeared.
post #888 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

There's a possibility they are indeed working on a smaller form factor and are saving it for a future release date. That does seem unlikely though. Just do a silent release already. Ah well... I will continue to follow the rumors.

Think it will be black to match the apple TV/Mac Pro?

post #889 of 1301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelsalt View Post

Think it will be black to match the apple TV/Mac Pro?

I hope not as I like the silver and black color scheme. It matches my Oakland Raiders.

On a serious note, I just saw that Iris 5100 is a 65% performance boost over the HD 4000. I wonder how much faster it is over the Intel HD 3000 and imagine if they offer an Iris Pro model for $800 or so. That would be awesome.
post #890 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

I hope not as I like the silver and black color scheme. It matches my Oakland Raiders.

On a serious note, I just saw that Iris 5100 is a 65% performance boost over the HD 4000. I wonder how much faster it is over the Intel HD 3000 and imagine if they offer an Iris Pro model for $800 or so. That would be awesome.

Iris is nothing to sneeze at. There will be little reason for people to complain about integrate graphics for mainstream use.

Beyond that I had a nasty thought as I pulled up this thread. I'm thinking this will have to be turned into a "2014 Mac Mini wish list". It is hard to believe how dry the rumor mill is of late.
post #891 of 1301
Originally Posted by joelsalt View Post
Think it will be black to match the apple TV/Mac Pro?

 

Maybe red?

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post #892 of 1301

Maybe hot pink who knows.

post #893 of 1301
Thread Starter 
If it is indeed a case of waiting until 2014, I would rather it have Broadwell over Haswell depending on how late it gets released.
post #894 of 1301
Originally Posted by Winter View Post
If it is indeed a case of waiting until 2014, I would rather it have Broadwell over Haswell depending on how late it gets released.

 

But there aren’t Broadwell desktop chips.

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post #895 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

If it is indeed a case of waiting until 2014, I would rather it have Broadwell over Haswell depending on how late it gets released.

There was a rumor regarding Broadwell delays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

But there aren’t Broadwell desktop chips.


The Mini hasn't used desktop chips so far. Winter has always expressed interest in the Mini.

post #896 of 1301
Thread Starter 
Won't they use Broadwell mobile chips?
post #897 of 1301

That was my point. If they stick to the current strategy of hardware shared with the notebooks, you would see a broadwell mini. Typically the mini comes out some time after notebook refreshes, as I would assume Apple prioritizes initial supply for the notebooks. It might also have something to do with costs, although I'm not sure.

post #898 of 1301
Thread Starter 
I went back and looked for the past few years because that makes me a little bit optimistic, hmm. In January and June of 2009, they updated the MacBook Pro. In March and October of 2009, they updated the Mac mini. In April of 2010, they updated the 13" MacBook Pro and in June they updated the Mac mini. In 2011, the MacBook Pro was updated in February and the Mac mini in July. In October 2012, they introduced the 13" rMBP and Mac mini side by side.
post #899 of 1301
Quote:
 I went back and looked for the past few years because that makes me a little bit optimistic, hmm. In January and June of 2009, they updated the MacBook Pro. In March and October of 2009, they updated the Mac mini. In April of 2010, they updated the 13" MacBook Pro and in June they updated the Mac mini. In 2011, the MacBook Pro was updated in February and the Mac mini in July. In October 2012, they introduced the 13" rMBP and Mac mini side by side.

 

So it seems as though a reasonably optimistic expectation would be December. I can handle that. I do remember a few years back when I was able to purchase a Mini on Black Friday from Amazon for a $100 discount. No matter - I will buy a Mini no matter what the update, as soon as the revisions are released.

post #900 of 1301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolHandPete View Post

No matter - I will buy a Mini no matter what the update, as soon as the revisions are released.

Now see that's where I'll disagree with you because Iris and Iris Pro are the selling points. If the mini is updated and there is no Iris/Iris Pro, I save my money for other things.
post #901 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post


Now see that's where I'll disagree with you because Iris and Iris Pro are the selling points. If the mini is updated and there is no Iris/Iris Pro, I save my money for other things.

I guess I am assuming Iris will be included in the next update, just because it would be glaringly absent if it weren't. My dilemma is, I don't need an iMac, I don't want to pay for another laptop just to run my multiple monitors, and I don't want to get a year-old Mac Mini that's going to be obsolete pretty soon. I just need a Mac-in-a-box, that's all.

post #902 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolHandPete View Post

I guess I am assuming Iris will be included in the next update, just because it would be glaringly absent if it weren't.
Glaring would be the word. Without Iris Apple would give up a performance increase from the GPU of around 60%.
Quote:
My dilemma is, I don't need an iMac, I don't want to pay for another laptop just to run my multiple monitors,
I hate the iMac so I'm unlikely to go that route in the future. For me the Minis problem are these: the lack of a decent GPU and less than stellar performance in the up sell models. Haswell can address the GPU issue very well and performance could be addressed by upping the power capacity of the box.
Quote:
and I don't want to get a year-old Mac Mini that's going to be obsolete pretty soon. I just need a Mac-in-a-box, that's all.
Yep a huge problem seeing that Haswell is such a step forward when Iris is added. Ideally we will get TB2 and other optimizations. In a nut shell the Mini needs an overhaul.
post #903 of 1301
Thread Starter 
I will never expect the mini to have discrete graphics. If I want a system with powerful discrete graphics, I will pay the money to do so be it on the Mac side or the Windoze side.

I simply want exactly what the $1,500 13" retina MacBook Pro has. Dual-core processor, Iris graphics, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB PCIe SSD. Quad-core and Iris Pro will work well for me too but I think Apple will price it out of reach for me for the time being. I only work part time retail. : /
post #904 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Haswell can address the GPU issue very well and performance could be addressed by upping the power capacity of the box.

 

Isn't that the exact opposite of what Thunderbolt expansion is about?

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post #905 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Isn't that the exact opposite of what Thunderbolt expansion is about?

I'm not sure whatnot are asking for here! TB expansion was never intended to support GPUs and frankly what we are talking about has little to do with expansion.

Look at what I have said Haswell addresses the GPU performance issue which has nothing to do with TB expansion. Further upping the power capacity of the machine would allow Apple more room to support higher performance Haswell chips and I/O support. For example each TB has a power budget of some 10+ watts or power!so adding two more ports means either upping the power supply capacity or saving power someplace else. Considering the beefed up power demands from USB3, Apple has to budget a considerable amount of the total power supply budget just to support connected I/O.

Honestly I'm not sure what you think TB is all about.
post #906 of 1301

I was thinking that GPU expansion might soon be possible with TB 2.0.

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post #907 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
 

I was thinking that GPU expansion might soon be possible with TB 2.0.


I have yet to see a really well tested solution, meaning one that reliably passes data and can keep up entirely with the bandwidth of a card across all situations. The typical demos that pop up on youtube don't really constitute thorough testing, especially as most of those guys do claim that it took some work. In typical cases they aren't hot pluggable, therefore not certifiable. I am curious whether NVidia will continue to pay attention to OSX given that an increasing number of Macs will not employ anything beyond  the basic integrated graphics. Another thing of importance is that the prior after market cards were basically variants of cards that worked in the mac pro. This meant mostly NVidia cards that worked without boot screens or after market Mac Pro upgrade cards. While the new cards are modular plugins, it seems highly unlikely that third party ones will show up. It would take a lot of work where the current ones such as the 680 mac edition use the same board layouts as those sold for Windows.

 

I guess my point is do not get too excited about any perceived potential here.

post #908 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

I went back and looked for the past few years because that makes me a little bit optimistic, hmm. In January and June of 2009, they updated the MacBook Pro. In March and October of 2009, they updated the Mac mini. In April of 2010, they updated the 13" MacBook Pro and in June they updated the Mac mini. In 2011, the MacBook Pro was updated in February and the Mac mini in July. In October 2012, they introduced the 13" rMBP and Mac mini side by side.

 

The mini is typically last, but I never suggested they wouldn't update it this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

I will never expect the mini to have discrete graphics. If I want a system with powerful discrete graphics, I will pay the money to do so be it on the Mac side or the Windoze side.

I simply want exactly what the $1,500 13" retina MacBook Pro has. Dual-core processor, Iris graphics, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB PCIe SSD. Quad-core and Iris Pro will work well for me too but I think Apple will price it out of reach for me for the time being. I only work part time retail. : /

 

It was pointed out to me that iris graphics are slower than iris pro. If they could get quad + iris pro into the $800 model at that price, it would be a solid little machine, especially if you max the ram.

post #909 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I was thinking that GPU expansion might soon be possible with TB 2.0.
To be perfectly honest with you I'm not sure how this external GPU desire got started. The way to the future is for the GPU to be tightly coupled with the CPU. It is what AMD and Intel are striving for and get closer to with each new processor release. There is little future in discrete GPUs for normal system support.

Now attaching an external GPU or something like a XEON Phi over TB, to support software as computation nodes is a different discussion. Even here how well that would work is very very application dependent to the point it isn't worth a discussion unless you have the ability to test or know the behavior of the hardware really well. Like it or not TB is no where near as fast as the latest 16x PCI Express port.

By the way, I've seen mention of the use of external GPUs to drive monitors for gaming with laptops like MBA. Frankly the economics of doing such just isn't there. Basically if you want to game you purchased the wrong laptop. In a nut shell, the reason you don't see external GPUs for this purpose is that they would end up being very expensive due to low volume and the fact that you are basically buying a whole new computer.
post #910 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post


I have yet to see a really well tested solution, meaning one that reliably passes data and can keep up entirely with the bandwidth of a card across all situations. The typical demos that pop up on youtube don't really constitute thorough testing, especially as most of those guys do claim that it took some work. In typical cases they aren't hot pluggable, therefore not certifiable. I am curious whether NVidia will continue to pay attention to OSX given that an increasing number of Macs will not employ anything beyond  the basic integrated graphics.
NVidia is in a tough position right now, it isn't just Mac sales that are drying up, they are about to loose a major portion of their income stream. AMD has had good enough integrated GPUs for over a year now and Haswell is now to that point in many variants. The need really isn't there anymore for a decent discrete GPU. By this time next year, the only chips NVidia will be selling will be for high end gaming or workstation machines. Given that I would suspect that they will try hard to get designed into the Mac Pro, especially if the machine takes off sales wise.
Quote:
Another thing of importance is that the prior after market cards were basically variants of cards that worked in the mac pro. This meant mostly NVidia cards that worked without boot screens or after market Mac Pro upgrade cards. While the new cards are modular plugins, it seems highly unlikely that third party ones will show up. It would take a lot of work where the current ones such as the 680 mac edition use the same board layouts as those sold for Windows.
Well I haven't seen the physical hardware yet but GPU upgrades seem to be very possible in the new Mac Pros. The problem is; does it make sense to do so anymore? Honestly I see us coming to a time where it doesn't make any sense at all to upgrade GPUs in these sorts of machines. 2-4 years from now the Mac Pro could be entirely built around a 14 nm process vastly changing its characteristics. At 14 nm the CPUs and GPUs could easily double in capacity over today's hardware so it really makes piece meal upgrades look ill advised.
Quote:

I guess my point is do not get too excited about any perceived potential here.

I've never understood how people latched on to this external GPU baloney. I still see the major problem being one of economics followed very closely by the huge performance compromises such arrangements produce.
post #911 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I've never understood how people latched on to this external GPU baloney. I still see the major problem being one of economics followed very closely by the huge performance compromises such arrangements produce.

 

Well that's because they are just so expensive not just for the enclosure which borders on the absurd but the Mac specific card aren't cheap either.

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post #912 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


NVidia is in a tough position right now, it isn't just Mac sales that are drying up, they are about to loose a major portion of their income stream. AMD has had good enough integrated GPUs for over a year now and Haswell is now to that point in many variants. The need really isn't there anymore for a decent discrete GPU. By this time next year, the only chips NVidia will be selling will be for high end gaming or workstation machines. Given that I would suspect that they will try hard to get designed into the Mac Pro, especially if the machine takes off sales wise.

Nvidia still outsells ATI in the discrete graphics card market, low, mid and high end,  that probably won't change for a long while. I don't think the Mac Pro is a big enough market to really matter to Nvidia anyway and I can only imagine the large price reductions ATI had to make to be used by Apple.

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post #913 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


Well I haven't seen the physical hardware yet but GPU upgrades seem to be very possible in the new Mac Pros. The problem is; does it make sense to do so anymore? Honestly I see us coming to a time where it doesn't make any sense at all to upgrade GPUs in these sorts of machines. 2-4 years from now the Mac Pro could be entirely built around a 14 nm process vastly changing its characteristics. At 14 nm the CPUs and GPUs could easily double in capacity over today's hardware so it really makes piece meal upgrades look ill advised.

I just wouldn't count on it. First it's possible that these gpus may have to be installed in pairs. Even if they're in a replaceable card form, we don't know if Apple will actually sell them as after market parts through their site as they did with the 5870 and prior models. We don't know whether connectors will change between one generation and the next. I was saying not to count on a company like Sapphire to do it this time, as they appear to be custom boards rather than the same form  factor as PC equivalents.
 

Quote:

I've never understood how people latched on to this external GPU baloney. I still see the major problem being one of economics followed very closely by the huge performance compromises such arrangements produce.

 

I found it a bit silly, but I find many gpu discussions to be silly, as they often center around discrete vs integrated like the people involved are somehow unaware that at 650m is not remotely comparable in performance to a 680. There's that, and few people will shell out several hundred for a notebook dock if it only brings a 25% performance improvement. Even if they can get a solution together that works acceptably under a variety of conditions, the price barrier would be quite polarizing. Even adding a couple hundred to the price of a card will dissuade a lot of people who believe themselves to be interested.

post #914 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

 

Well that's because they are just so expensive not just for the enclosure which borders on the absurd but the Mac specific card aren't cheap either.

The mac specific cards are typically $100 more in the US a year after the original cards hit the market. They aren't exactly a high priority for these companies, but what I mentioned below can work.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

Nvidia still outsells ATI in the discrete graphics card market, low, mid and high end,  that probably won't change for a long while. I don't think the Mac Pro is a big enough market to really matter to Nvidia anyway and I can only imagine the large price reductions ATI had to make to be used by Apple.


That is very true, although I haven't kept up with where they're used in embedded areas such as consoles at the moment.  Some of NVidia's cards did unofficially work with Mountain Lion if you were okay with no boot screens.

post #915 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
There's that, and few people will shell out several hundred for a notebook dock if it only brings a 25% performance improvement. Even if they can get a solution together that works acceptably under a variety of conditions, the price barrier would be quite polarizing. Even adding a couple hundred to the price of a card will dissuade a lot of people who believe themselves to be interested.

Oh gosh me too, I have never understood that. That amount of overclocked GPU options on the market has to make you wonder what idiots think that a 10% performance gain is worth such a heft pricetag, especially when you can overclock the GPU yourself.

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post #916 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

I guess my point is do not get too excited about any perceived potential here.

 

Good to know. I just remembered the speculation back when TB was announced. I know little about the tech itself.

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post #917 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

The mini is typically last, but I never suggested they wouldn't update it this year.

It was pointed out to me that iris graphics are slower than iris pro. If they could get quad + iris pro into the $800 model at that price, it would be a solid little machine, especially if you max the ram.

Yep a very solid machine. The only problem I have is that a more robust thermal budget for the Intel chip could lead to even better performance. Iris Pro is a pretty demanding chip power wise.

I'm waiting to see what Apple does here. The Mini has always frustrated me with its less than stellar GPU performance, Haswell could change that dramatically. That will only happen though if Apple sees the need and goes for it.
post #918 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
 

 

Good to know. I just remembered the speculation back when TB was announced. I know little about the tech itself.

Wizard is right, if it isn't on the motherboard close to the CPU it just isn't worth the enormous costs to go external, even with Thunderbolt 2. Your better off buying a new machine that fits your needs better.

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post #919 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Well that's because they are just so expensive not just for the enclosure which borders on the absurd but the Mac specific card aren't cheap either.

The mass market isn't there so you end up paying higher prices for everything associated with an external GPU. Even if somebody went with a design in a purpose built box, with a tailored power supply the costs would never be reasonable.
post #920 of 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Nvidia still outsells ATI in the discrete graphics card market, low, mid and high end,  that probably won't change for a long while.
Ah but it is foolish to look at the GPU market and only consider the discrete units. AMD has effectively displaced many of NVidias low and mid market GPUs with its APUs. You will see a rapid collapse of income at NVidia over the next year or so if they can't come up with new products the market wants.
Quote:
I don't think the Mac Pro is a big enough market to really matter to Nvidia anyway and I can only imagine the large price reductions ATI had to make to be used by Apple.

The Mac Pro could bring some additional respectability to AMDs professional chips. This should worry NVidia because they have staked a good portion of their future on GPU compute. NVidia can't afford to loose professional computing but they are under extreme pressure from the OpenCL crowd. The next few years will be very tough on NVidia.
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