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post #161 of 226
I liked Forstall... But I guess he was not a good team player -- and that is required in the absence of Steve Jobs

I certainly hope that Scott's employment agreement has a strong non-compete clause!
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 10/29/12 at 5:16pm
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post #162 of 226
suddenly newton: If Ive is in charge of UI then you can say goodbye to skeuomorphic designs, which I *really* like!
post #163 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

I like all the trolls jumping in here proclaiming Forstall was 'holding iOS back'. Unbelievable. Didn't SJ promise him that he'd 'always have a place' at Apple before he left? I guess not. 

And he has one. He's the advisor to the CEO.

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post #164 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovitt View Post

As for the Dixons guy, well, what did ya expect from a Dixons guy, lettin' a fool like that in and look what he did, kick him the hell out!
I like the line up: no women and no political correctness, just the right people for the job!

So you can't have the right people for the job if there are any women? WTF?! Next you'll tell us that if Sandy is a legitimate hurricane that nature has ways of shutting it down.

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post #165 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovitt View Post

suddenly newton: If Ive is in charge of UI then you can say goodbye to skeuomorphic designs, which I *really* like!

I wouldn't count on that. Some of it might stay just a bit toned down. Some of the chintz like the 'knob' shadows that move will be what is sure to go

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post #166 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHoule View Post

Forstall's exit says a lot about who is in control at Apple. This is a strong, gutsy move by Cook, one I would have never predicted given Forstall's long tenure and key position. But Jobs wouldn't and didn't hand over the company to someone not up to the job. 

 

Today, John Gruber suggested that Forstall's "design taste, engineering management, abrasive style and the whole iOS Maps thing" led to his demise. Gruber described him as a polarizing executive.

I think you're right.  Tim Cook is a strong man.

post #167 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shameer Mulji View Post

I don't put any stock, no pun intended, in the stock market or what Wall Street says. They're like vampires.

 

Goog point; I totally agree!   Wall Street is like a tail and no way should we allow it to wag the dog.

post #168 of 226
Tim Cook is the Mitt Romney of Apple. Nobody really likes him, he doesn't have much charisma, but he's here to stay, so get used to it!
post #169 of 226

Forstall sold off all of his Apple Stock a few months ago, long before the Maps drama. This has been in planning for a while, probably since Job's exit as CEO.

post #170 of 226
Good thing if Jonny Ive oversees UI desiign, some of the recent decisions about icons and apps are just too literal and could do with a more streamlined and aesthetic makeover. If his hardware decisions are anything to go by he can do this. Pity about Scott Forstall though, he was a likeable guy and had enthusiasm and stage presence! Compared to him Tim Cook has the demeanour of John Hodgeman - the nice but uncool 'PC' actor. Steve is a hard act to follow. Sorry Tim!
post #171 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

Tim Cook is the Mitt Romney of Apple. Nobody really likes him, he doesn't have much charisma, but he's here to stay, so get used to it!

 

I'm not sure what you mean.  I like Tim Cook quite a bit and I doubt that I'm the only one.  On top of that, I don't know that he's flip flopped over and over again.  

post #172 of 226
The problem with Scott Forstall was that Steve Jobs had his back and Steve Jobs is now dead.

I think Jony Ive having full control over UI and hardware design is a masterful decision.
post #173 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkevwill View Post

I like the Mapsgate comment. I have responded in other forums, who complained about how bad it was, and how Steve would have handled that. Well, now we know how Tim handled it. I liked Forstall's presentation skills, and he obviously did a HUGE amount for Apple, but we have all read stories how he had a big head, and was a pain in the ass to work with. The Maps?.........well, the buck stops (software wise) with Scott, and he screwed up big time IMHO.

I met him several years ago at Macworld, and was very impressed with him. However, stories started to build year after year, about him taking credit when credit was not totally due, and it might just have eventually bit him in the butt.

Oddly, I am using iOS 6 maps to quickly locate the areas of NYC that are in the Sandy.storm news (crane dangle, building facia collapse) and compare them in 3D Flyover... Really addicting...
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post #174 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

 

As a former colleague of Scott's the comment is that of a fool. As a former colleague of his at NeXT and Apple the notion that one person [outside of Steve] makes the design decisions for the architecture and UI implementations is insulting to the teams of folks that do the heavy lifting. One only realizes how highly focused, detailed oriented and passionate the teams are at Apple, relative to the rest of the industry, after one leaves to try out new digs.

 

And if he hated the skewmorphic designs they would have been DOA and ended up in the digital dumpster.  The designer at the top of food chain sets the tone for the entire team.  If he or she doesn't then you end up with a jumbled ass of a UI.

 

 

Quote:

Most people in the industry are hacks. Most computer science majors consider themselves Engineers. 

 

Most CS majors consider themselves coders. 

 

 

Quote:

They aren't. They never will be. Completely different disciplines. Most people in this industry are ill-suited to being in this industry, much like the Medical world. People go where the money flows and it often results in a complete waste of time for them and confrontations with driven people who have zero tolerance for ill-suited bodies filling up slots other people more well-suited should occupy.

 

Good coders are worth more than good "software engineers" of which you generally only need a few on any given project.  As far as people going where the "money flows" as near as I can tell an insufficient number of people are going comp sci.  And I haven't been overly impressed with "engineers" who do coding because they couldn't find real work as a EE, AE, ME, etc.

 

You are right that software development is not an engineering discipline so applying engineering practices against it generally leads to poor results outside of mission/life critical domains that demands a high level of rigor.

 

 

Quote:
Being both a M.E. and CS gives me that unique understanding.

 

As a CS and Software Engineer (yah, that's really a major and engineering discipline*) I'd say you have an overinflated opinion of engineers and engineering.  I've seen just as many craptastic results and dysfunctional hardware engineering teams as for software.

 

 

* SE PE exams start in 2013 which I might decide to do but probably won't since it's been 15 years since grad school and I'd have to refresh some stuff I don't do much of and there are no study materials for it.  The FE exams will actually be harder.  Undergrad was 30 years ago and honestly I only want P.E. on my business card so uppity MEs and EEs will STFU about how software engineering isn't engineering blah blah...

 

Actually SwE isn't really engineering IMO but I guess if they let Systems Engineers (IMO not really engineering either) into the club they had to let us in too.

post #175 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

And if he hated the skewmorphic designs they would have been DOA and ended up in the digital dumpster.  The designer at the top of food chain sets the tone for the entire team.  If he or she doesn't then you end up with a jumbled ass of a UI.

 

 

 

Most CS majors consider themselves coders. 

 

 

 

Good coders are worth more than good "software engineers" of which you generally only need a few on any given project.  As far as people going where the "money flows" as near as I can tell an insufficient number of people are going comp sci.  And I haven't been overly impressed with "engineers" who do coding because they couldn't find real work as a EE, AE, ME, etc.

 

You are right that software development is not an engineering discipline so applying engineering practices against it generally leads to poor results outside of mission/life critical domains that demands a high level of rigor.

 

 

 

As a CS and Software Engineer (yah, that's really a major and engineering discipline*) I'd say you have an overinflated opinion of engineers and engineering.  I've seen just as many craptastic results and dysfunctional hardware engineering teams as for software.

 

 

* SE PE exams start in 2013 which I might decide to do but probably won't since it's been 15 years since grad school and I'd have to refresh some stuff I don't do much of and there are no study materials for it.  The FE exams will actually be harder.  Undergrad was 30 years ago.

 

You won't be able to test for the PE until you have the years under the PE in the first place to sign off on your work.

 

Hardware Engineering is a completely different beast than Mechanical Engineering and sorry, but Software Engineer is a title, not a discipline. There are no Laws of Software Engineering. We aren't discussing universal applications of Heat Transfer or Power Systems. Just because you've had morons graduate in Hardware Engineering takes nothing away from reality--Computer Science is not an Engineering Discipline.

 

There is a reason it takes decades before disciplines become Engineering Disciplines. It took Mechanical. Electrical, Chemical, Structural, Civil and more 60+ years for their status to be codified.

 

Software Engineer is a major Universities are pushing because the IT Industry called Software Programming and Engineering title long before it could justify it. They still cannot. It is the same reason Electrical Engineering in most ABET accredited US Universities oversee the CS Departments and how come half of the curriculum is EE based.

 

With your Undgrad in 1982 you damn well know there was no such thing as a Software Engineering Field. It was Computer Science. Hell, when I graduated in '93 and later in '96 it was just at the tail end of '98 when Computer Engineering was beginning to be recognized as an Engineering Field.

post #176 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

Let it be... The stock is irrelevant.

 

What is relevant is that apple is the only tech company that "get's it" and is willing to do something better. The others are parasites.

 

I fail to see why this cannot be a great move in every way. 

 

The day-to-day stock price is something that shouldn't be worried over for longs, however a strong stock that continues an upward trend is important for Apple employees and the massive numbers of AAPL shareholders.

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post #177 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 
Google around. Forstall is known for being a corporate infighter and a total a**hole.
 
What the **** is your point? SJ was also known to be an asshole. That doesn't take away from the other qualities he had. These are character flaws that you put up with, when the person brings so much else to the table. You don't look for Mother Theresa in these positions. You find people who have vision, drive, skill, and can execute. He's also the only guy I think can do a half decent job in presenting, compared to Steve. 

My guess is that it takes a strong, driving personality like Steve's to keep Scott's similar personality focused on the task at hand. Tim has a different personality and management style and, likely, Scott was disruptive to the new management order.

Not too unusual to see this kind of management reshuffle following the loss of a strong leader.
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post #178 of 226

I think the reason for this is hiding in plain sight. iOS and OS X are being integrated. There can only be one guy in charge of OS development and they chose Federighi over Forstall. There will still be two different operating systems for consumers but they'll share much more code, be developed in tandem by the same team and will be a single platform as far as developers are concerned.

post #179 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

As noted by someone on Twitter this might be the first time the comment 'This wouldn't have happened if Steve Jobs were alive" might actually be reasonable.

 

To put this in a political perspective, I'd equate Steve Jobs to Saddam Hussain, a leader who kept his people and neighboring countries roiling in terror. Once the leader was gone, the power struggles began in earnest. In the case of the Middle East, the entire region became unbalanced.

 

Of course this is an extreme comparison for entertainment only, but a strong leader removed from a company has the same effect on the internal balance of a company's people and political structure.

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post #180 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I like the direction of these changes. Ive and Mansfield both getting more influence and responsibility. Browett is out, thank Tim. Forstall? Not sure about that one, but Jony Ive should have say over UI design.

 

It's indeed good that Browett is out. It shows that Tim doesn't tolerate deviation from the game plan. Didn't Mansfield become a special adviser not long ago? Now he has more responsibilities than ever. Wonder if Forstall will follow in those footsteps.

 

I disagree about the last part. It's rare that an individual truly gets mechanical/industrial design and UI design. Jobs was sort of talented that way but only at an experiential level. The head of mobile development (or desktop) has to be a software person, one with a strong UI background. There are many talents out there who would dearly love to join Apple.

post #181 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

Permanent advisor = demotion and a that "Your department's being downsized." "You're part of an outplacement." "We're going in a different direction." "We're not picking up your option." Take your pick. I got more. 

 

Yah think Scott will stick around for that?  Nah, I think he's rather go out and try to form the next NeXT.

 

Yep. He has the money and ambition to make his own mark.

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post #182 of 226
I second that.
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post #183 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I liked Forstall... But I guess he was not a good team player -- and that is required in the absence of Steve Jobs
I certainly hope that Scott's employment agreement has a strong non-compete clause!

 

You above most people should know that non-competes are unenforceable in California. NDAs are a different matter.

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post #184 of 226
1oyvey.gif

Bye Scott,
Bye Apple,

• My worst fears are finally coming true. It is because of SCOTT FORSTALL that the Mac's UX is peerless (and not for lack of trying by competitors).

• It is because of SCOTT FORSTALL that iOS is OS X based. It is because of SCOTT FORSTALL that there is an App Store with 700,000+ Apps (Steve Jobs originally wanted only a handful of Apple-made apps à la a P.I.M./Phone), creating an annual multi-billion dollar revenue stream for Apple.

• It is SCOTT FORSTALL that led the creation of the [insert your own superlative] iOS SDK.

• If not for SCOTT FORSTALL, "App" would not be a word in America's common vernacular. (The ad campaign that put the word on the map: "Yeah, there's an App for that.")

• Apple customers and shareholders will rue this day, marking the end of Scott Forstall's removal from the Apple Inc. ecosystem.

• Politics drove this decision. To get things done, you have to ruffle a few feathers, and Scott indeed did his share of that. What if Steve Jobs had not?

• The "bean counters" are in charge at Apple now, and it will show — glaringly. Kill innovation, focus on numbers. Apple Inc. is a Balance Sheet.

• Cook: "I want to thank Scott for all of his many contributions to Apple over his career." The understatement of the century.

• When Scott leaves Apple, he will, of course, sign a non-compete clause and a promise not to use Apple IP at any other company. Those agreements are usually a joke. Scott is young, and whatever company gets him after Apple will be hugely fortunate, and Apple's dominant position (it IS possible for fortunes to change — especially in the volatile tech market. Witness Palm, RIM Blackberry, Motorola, Nokia, Microsoft, HP, Dell, the IBM PC, and on...) is NOT a given, in perpetuity. No company is too big to fail (unless they are thrown bushels of T.A.R.P. dollars).

• Don't expect to see another new Apple Store that is a spectacle and an international tourist attraction. Those stores were all money foolishly wasted, of course. Time to crack down!

• Tim Cook will surely make sure "the trains run on time."

• I'm glad I sold all of my AAPL shares at $700.

• Now begins the slow torturous decline of Apple.

1hmm.gif
Edited by AppleOmbudsman - 10/29/12 at 5:52pm
post #185 of 226

This was bound to happen whenever there was a CEO change.  Truth is, in most companies, a good number of people who report to the CEO will think they themselves could do the job and should be successor.  That being the case, when the CEO goes, some people are going to be disappointed.  Some react well and stay, some react badly and leave.  Weak CEOs allow the ones who act badly to not leave, then they have a disaster on their hands.

 

When I was at Applied Materials there was a CEO change, and one guy in particular, Sass Somekh, who was one of the most important hardware guys in the history of AMAT was clearly put out by not being given the CEOs role.  He spent some time kicking up a fuss about various things until he left to be President at Novellus, where by all accounts he proved to be un-inspired.  Sadly for AMAT, the CEO they did get proved to be un-inspired as well, but there we go.

 

Maybe that's happened here.  If Forstall was acting up because he was upset at Cook getting the CEO role over him, then Cook has done the right thing.  A loose cannon at the top can be a dangerous thing.
 

Whether Cook will prove to be the right choice as CEO, who knows?  It'll take longer than 18 months to find out.

post #186 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

Tim Cook is the Mitt Romney of Apple. Nobody really likes him, he doesn't have much charisma, but he's here to stay, so get used to it!

 

Not quite. Besides, Mitt's wife insisted he won't run again after this election.

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post #187 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

Forstall sold off all of his Apple Stock a few months ago, long before the Maps drama. This has been in planning for a while, probably since Job's exit as CEO.

 

He sold a large chunk of it, if I recall correctly, but he did not sell all of it.

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post #188 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by jca666us View Post

The problem with Scott Forstall was that Steve Jobs had his back and Steve Jobs is now dead.
I think Jony Ive having full control over UI and hardware design is a masterful decision.

 

But Craig Federighi will actually be in charge of iOS and OSX, right? So Federighi will report to Ive?

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post #189 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

I think the reason for this is hiding in plain sight. iOS and OS X are being integrated. There can only be one guy in charge of OS development and they chose Federighi over Forstall. There will still be two different operating systems for consumers but they'll share much more code, be developed in tandem by the same team and will be a single platform as far as developers are concerned.

 

I wonder if Jony will be pushing his minimalist ethos to the UI, or will he simply set the general direction and let Federighi drive development.

 

Whatever happens, I hope to goodness they fix their buggy, non-intuitive iOS dev tools.

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post #190 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post

I doubt Forstall's departure had anything to do with Maps. He's been there forever and was close to Jobs. If he's leaving, I'm guessing it was his own decision.

Browett, however, seems like it wasn't a good fix and Tim dropped the axe.

That seems most likely to me too. Sometimes you just get fed up working on the same things. He has over $40m, I'm pretty sure most people here would have retired much sooner.

It must be funny working at Apple having loads of random people talking about you like this, deciding what kind of people they are, based on really small amounts of information. How bad would people feel if that was them going into work every day just doing their job and thousands of strangers start blogging about them?

There were only minor issues with Maps, iOS is awesome and Scott always made great presentations. It's sad to see him go but I expect more senior staff will want to be moving on soon.

Of course he might just be looking for the kind of deal Mansfield got.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpellerin 
Good riddance to Browett. That was a bad fit from the get go.

From his point of view, if someone offers you $56m:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/electronics/9641863/Former-Dixons-boss-John-Browett-leaves-Apple-after-just-six-months.html

you're going to have a go at it no matter how much you screw it up. He probably didn't get anywhere near that but his pay was likely in the millions for just the few months he was there. Most people in the world will work their entire lives and not make anything near that.

There are lots of people that float around between these big companies for short periods. Given half the chance, we'd all do the same.

option a: work for 40 years doing a tedious job making an average salary
option b: work for 6 months, possibly screw it up and walk away a multi-millionaire
post #191 of 226
What's funny is that in reading this- I totally forgot about passbook. What a collossal failure. I actually love maps, turn by turn, etc. no qualms at all.

But passbook has even MORE potential, but is completely useless. Completely. And it could've and should be a game changer!

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post #192 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

What's funny is that in reading this- I totally forgot about passbook. What a collossal failure. I actually love maps, turn by turn, etc. no qualms at all.
But passbook has even MORE potential, but is completely useless. Completely. And it could've and should be a game changer!

 

What about iWork? GarageBand? Final Cut Pro? All of the other apps that only occasionally receive a touch-up, but largely sit idle until a big push internally comes along?

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post #193 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

I think the reason for this is hiding in plain sight. iOS and OS X are being integrated. There can only be one guy in charge of OS development and they chose Federighi over Forstall. There will still be two different operating systems for consumers but they'll share much more code, be developed in tandem by the same team and will be a single platform as far as developers are concerned.

if it means i don't have to pay for iOS & OSX apps separately, I'm all for it.  Don't be surprised if iOS remains for the iPhone & OSX ( in some form) comes "down" to the iPad.

post #194 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post

 

It's indeed good that Browett is out. It shows that Tim doesn't tolerate deviation from the game plan. Didn't Mansfield become a special adviser not long ago? Now he has more responsibilities than ever. Wonder if Forstall will follow in those footsteps.

 

I disagree about the last part. It's rare that an individual truly gets mechanical/industrial design and UI design. Jobs was sort of talented that way but only at an experiential level. The head of mobile development (or desktop) has to be a software person, one with a strong UI background. There are many talents out there who would dearly love to join Apple.

"There are many talents out there who would dearly love to join Apple."

 

Maybe that will happen now.

post #195 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

 

Not quite. Besides, Mitt's wife insisted he won't run again after this election.


LOL!

post #196 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shameer Mulji View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And come on, this has nothing to do with Maps. If Apple didn't have faith in Maps or thought it had failed, they would have simply switched back. 

On skeuomorphism, it has a place, period. Yellow leather is garish, I agree, but do you people REALLY want Windows 8-style minimalism in your applications? I don't care if the answer is yes; the answer's no. I think Jony will still do skeuomorphism, but beautifully, simplistically, incorporating raw "materials" and a contrast between them.

"What, you mean like the brushed metal UI in Panther/Tiger?"


We must never speak of that again. lol.gif

"At least it wasn't pinstripes…"


Well, there's that.
No disrespect to Ive, but what does a hardware design guy know about software UI design? they're two different worlds.

I disagree! Hardware and UI design have a single objective... To get out of the way!
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post #197 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post

I think the reason for this is hiding in plain sight. iOS and OS X are being integrated. There can only be one guy in charge of OS development and they chose Federighi over Forstall. There will still be two different operating systems for consumers but they'll share much more code, be developed in tandem by the same team and will be a single platform as far as developers are concerned.


Disagree completely.

 

The answer, arguably, is in plain sight. The Maps fiasco and copious bugs in new iOS releases would be enough to get an executive fired at other companies too.

post #198 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


And he has one. He's the advisor to the CEO.

 

What part of 'leaving Apple next year' did you miss? 

post #199 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

 

But Craig Federighi will actually be in charge of iOS and OSX, right? So Federighi will report to Ive?

Federighi reports to Tim Cook as do all SVP's.

post #200 of 226

Scott Forstall had a presentation delivery better than Steve Jobs. He speaks measured and eloquently. I thought he exuded a certain intelligence that any company would be glad to have. I should imagine he has the BIG picture of iOS like no other. Those will be a hard shoes to fill. 

It looks like Browett's early release reflects poorly on Tim Cook's judgement of character. 

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