Scott Forstall's refusal to sign iOS Maps apology letter contributed to departure, sources say - Page 4

As I understand it, Maps works great in the US. My experience bears this out. I've used Maps dozens of times, twice for a trip to the next state (different cities), twice to cities about an hour away, as well as a lot more local routes. Apple Maps generally makes better routes than the competition. The larger "road sign" theme for telling you your next turn is a lot better than before, where it was tiny text in a tiny gray header bar.

Outside the US is where it gets problematic.


Huh. I didn't think about that. But when I tried to force the location to be in Spain by saying "Grenada, Spain", it doesn't consider that I might have misspelled the location name, and doesn't bother to consider that Spain as a country might be what I want. I get Spain's Supermarket in Grenada Mississippi in Apple Maps, Google shows me Granada, Spain.

Here's a question to ask yourself:

At the time of the iPhone 5 rollout, how many senior executives at Apple were unaware of the deficiencies of the new maps app?

Given the answer to the above, raises a lot of other interesting questions.

IMO, this [MapsGate] is a BS reason ginned up by the tech press and blogs...

@ "Sign a letter? I'd tellem it was my department- I take the blame, but they can take that letter and shove it!"

I think I'm going to put a variation of the Scott Forstall forced outage in my kitbag of questions posed to division-level hiring candidates. Whether they answer much as "andysol" or more along the lines of the philosophical "solipsismx" will give me an interesting datapoint concerning how higher-level potential hires may fit into our corporate culture.

Yes, I agree! One of the deficiencies of Apple maps as compared to Google maps is poor search results.... Or, maybe, the requirement for more precise search input.

I hope that this is a temporary advantage for Googlee -- in that they have a very broad and deep history of searches with which to determine the user's intent and filter the search results. If Apple has done a correct job of implementing the search algorithm, it will flesh itself out as it processes more searches over time.

I agree with Forstall. There was no need to apologize for the maps app. An apology does not satisfy any disgruntled users. It actually encourages them to intensify their ranting and whining. Just take a look at the Apple discussions forums. Tim Cook's apology hasn't changed a thing. Not a single user has accepted the apology and it has instead thrown gasoline on the fire. And as a user who has had no problems with the maps app I see the apology as weakness in the face of unwarranted criticism. Apple's enemies have a new weapon to wield too. The apology is a lose/lose for Apple and has damaged their image more then the maps flap ever could have. Apple is now going to be required to apologize for any perceived flaw in any hardware or software.

I don't see how Siri can be his brainchildren, when its initial form was purchased from the company Siri.

Why should he be depressed for a long time, he will get another job, since he has lApple ongiveity and he could sell the issue as a difference of characters, i.e., himself and Tim Cook, since Tim became CEO. Beleive me I seen people get fired and end up with a better job, one year later and actually get a 2 level jump in their next job. If you read about Apple a lot, there has been mention of his relationship with other apple empolyees in the past. Additionally, he has at least USD$19 million cash from the sale of his shares this year (taking the fact, he paid 50% tax as the worst case). I think he needs to reflect on what went wrong, ensure he has learned from his mistakes and get a another job.

 

As for John Browett, he going have a more diffcult sell to potential new employers, but he also will land on his feet, since what startegy is not good for Apple will suit some other comapny.

I agree.  I live in china and some of the places I like to go are actually in the right spot in Apples's maps vs. not in the right spot in Google.  My experience is there are many items in Google's maps that are not exactly right.

deleted

Edited by MacRulez - 1/23/13 at 6:07am

Apple's results are sometimes location-dependent. The result I got is be more apropos if you weigh locality. Like how Motorola made hay about that park address in Manhattan. But there, at least you could add "Manhattan" and get the result you were seeking. Being in North America, directions to the country Spain doesn't make sense.

I wonder what the result would be if you typed "Grenada" while you were in Spain.

 

Except, again, Phil Schiller and several other Apple employees that over the years they have designated as being official commenters. 

I dont see Apple apologizing for everything they've done wrong, like Scuffgate. Instead they just tightened the noose around Foxconn's neck, in which it happens behind closed doors. 

 

To say that Maps wasnt worth an apology to its users when a significant amount of users were having issues, from some being mild like Flyover (a highly touted feature) to being incredibly severe (miles off on map locations with blurred or basic grid data with no detail) is a slap in the face to people who buy their products. This wasn't a Beta product, and it was touted as being far superior than what it replaced. 

 

If Jobs were still alive i'd say Forstall probably wouldn't have made it this long without getting toasted, since Jobs was strict about the DRI and that would have meant Forstall's ass. Remember the MobileMe catastrophe? When it comes to software, everyone expects Apple to be on their game.

Everyone is focused on how lousy the map app is - and I think a lot of that is anti-Apple media hype - but there have been a ton of other software issues that have upset a good portion of our community.  Just off the top of my head:

 

• Apple TV home screen layout
• Separating podcasts from music in iOS 6

 

Personally, I could care less about the Maps app because I use Waze, which I found superior to Google Maps anyway.  But there have been enough "hiccups" over the past year+ to make Forstall's departure inevitable in the nearer-than-later term.  That's MY opinion, yo.

 

Once again, someone shows just how little they actually know about anything.

I don't understand why ifail's opinion "shows just how little they actually know about anything."  What was Jobs' record when it came to firing software engineers?  I honestly don't know.

First of all, an apology letter for Maps was absolutely the right course of action. It shows concern from a company obsessed with customer satisfaction. It shows that Apple is listening and that it cares not only about its customers, but its own reputation. It took a lot of humble pie for Cook to write and sign that apology letter.

 

However, I don't feel that it would have been appropriate for Scott to sign that letter. Ultimately it's Steve Cook who is responsible for everything that Apple does. Just like President Obama accepts all responsibility for what happened in Benghazi, even though supposedly it was Hillary's call, Cook must accept responsibility with Maps. As I've said in the past, Cook is a delegator. Did Cook not use Maps before it was released? How could Cook have even allowed such a flawed product to launch as anything but a "beta"? Cook has a different management style than Jobs. He's not as "hands-on".

 

In some respects, management got rid of Forstall because it could not properly manage him or his products. It sounds like Forstall didn't play well at Apple and was buffered by Steve Jobs. I think Forstall was Jobs' protege, and now that Jobs is gone Forstall has nobody to protect him anymore. Also, Forstall has not risen up the executive ranks at Apple - while he held the SVP title, he was solely in charge of iOS. Federighi was promoted to oversee all software development, not Forstall, so something wasn't meshing.

 

I don't think the media has wrapped its collective head around what really happened. I don't think it was due to any single event. I have a feeling that there was a lot of internal strife at Apple regarding Forstall. It is being reported now that many at Apple are quietly celebrating. It doesn't sound like this guy was beloved. The consolidation of Forstall's responsibilities across various other SVP's makes a lot of sense and has Cook's fingerprints all over it. Cook is an operations guy, having Jonny Ive handle UI and Federighi iOS makes total sense. Apple also needs to better converge iOS with OS X, so Forstall's departure also signals a probably shift in focus towards consolidating both operating systems.

 

Having been to an Apple Store recently, I can say that I'm glad to see Browett go. In fact, I would like the door to hit his *ss on the way out. He was just the absolute wrong fit for Apple and Cook made a big mistake hiring him. Apple needs someone who is a good fit with their customer-centric culture, not a vulture who wants to generate profits at the expense of staff. Most retail execs can't understand Apple's culture because it is so different.

 

+1.   ^ This

 

I misread- I thought it was an internal letter, not the public apology one.

is that you?... Scott forstall... LOL

but, 'ifall' has a point, Steve Jobs would have "cracked the whip" in order for the maps app to be perfect because Apple wrote the google-data-using-map-app... so if Scott Forstall did a good job on the original maps app, why couldn't he do a good job on the new maps app?
they were both written by Apple and By extension Scott Forstall.
he is responsible for both.
So what is the difference? one was managed by Steve Jobs and the other was managed by Scott Forstall.
so who do you think is responsible for the map app new? Scott Forstall...

Also because Scott Forstall managed the first one, he had more than enough experience to do the second maps app.

And in effect the only difference between the two maps apps is the data...
so Scott Forstall should have been figuring out why the map data doesn't work as well as it should and if he couldn't get it done he should've told someone else to get it done...

I have a feeling there's a lot more to it than not signing a letter. It seems like the iOS team is under some pressure to innovate and Scott even sent an email to his team asking for bigger ideas. Perhaps Apple was unhappy with iOS 6 as a whole and the direction of the software, or maybe it was Scott that was unhappy. All I know is that in just about every media publication I read reviewing iPhone 5 they criticized iOS for being safe and static, and then the issues with bugs and poor maps support blew up as well. So the software chief being ousted seems a bit more complex than just a letter.

Maps is plenty fine.  I don't get it- it's not a colossal failure at all.  Passbook... now that's a failure (in it's current form at least).  Talk about squandered potential- that was a potential game changer and it does nothing.

 

Oh, sure! He's also implying 

 

1. That they aren't now or didn't initially, or that they wouldn't have ever done so with Steve gone.

2. Information about Forstall, et. al. that we do not know, and therefore is just conjecture.

 

 

They did a great job with it. The UI is amazing.

 

 

And, by extension, the code was also written by Phil Schiller, Jonathan Ive, Bob Mansfield, and even Tim Cook himself. 

 

See how that doesn't work? We don't know if Forstall even wrote a line of code for this, even if he was directly responsible for a "Maps team". We don't even know the hierarchy there at all, if he just oversaw everything or if he was directly in charge. 

 

Exactly. Forstall wrote a great application. The application is great. The back-end data wasn't the best at launch and remains not necessarily the best. We can guess as to why that is, but that's a separate topic. The point is, it's not Apple's data. And where this differs from the old arrangement is in the number of sources from which they're pulling. 

 

If Forstall is directly responsible for any of this at all, the only place he has dropped the ball is on the aggregation of that data into a fashion most readable by the application (the great application) they wrote. That is something Apple didn't have to do previously. They were given Google's data, straight up, and documentation for it. It would be "this data point corresponds to this thing", and they'd plug it into their app where that belongs.

 

Instead of tab A into slot A, Apple's now in charge of creating the tabs first. Or, if you want to look at it another way, they have the telephone lines strung, the phones installed in everyone's house, the wires all leading up to the building, the control board built… but they don't have the operators trained or the little cables to plug and unplug manufactured yet. 

 

As a reason to fire Scott, I feel the same way yes. Was probably not the only reason (if a reason at all). Is it pure speculation? Yes, until someone proves that it was a reason (extremely unlikely to happen).

Forstall may have a lot of faults but the Maps debacle is entirely related to the company's famous secrecy policy. In the Bay area, the maps are amazing but the program lacks sufficient data to meet the needs of a world-wide customer base. How hard would it have been to get 1,000 iPhone 4s with a beta of the new Maps app into the hands of willing fan boys and pay them to drive around, getting directions to places and then going there to see if it worked, then reporting back with pictures and documentation?

I wouldn't have signed that lame apology either. The map criticisms like everything directed at Apple these days was over blown. The worst thing Apple did was not label the product a beta. Forstall's loss will be felt at Apple. He came with Jobs from NeXt computing, and knows an awful lot about the workings of iOS and OSX. Unless he signed a no-compete agreement, he will be working at Google or Microsoft real soon. 

 

 

I agree. Apple should have treated Maps like a beta. When it first rolled out Safari and Siri, they were referred to as Beta products. A comprehensive product like that needs to be in the publics hands for a while. Google's Maps was a beta product forever.

 

 

I disagree with the apology letter, but agree ultimately the captain must take the blame. Cook should have throughly reviewed Maps, understood like Siri it is a complex piece of software, and release it as a Beta. However, the media over blew the extent of maps problems. Cooks should have merely issued a statement explaining Apple is aware some of its users are experiencing problems with the Maps app; explained why it updated the App (e.g. it wanted to give users more features like Turn-by turn and vector graphics, which Google was denying Apple); emphasized the new features and the complexity involved in bringing to market such an app, reclassify the app as a Beta, and let people know Apple will be rapidly addressing concerns. 

 

Forstall actually goes back to NeXt. He, however, is a millionaire many times over and nobody needs to cry for him. 

 

So was Avie Tevanian and a host of other former very key Apple folks.  Each one was replaced and Apple moved forward. If those guys hadn't left Scott probably wouldn't have had his shot.

 

The only one irreplaceable was Jobs but Apple soldiers on anyway.  Without Jobs some things evidently aren't as workable as before.  Scott probably felt he should have been CEO or at least first among equals of the SVPs.

 

 

Don't bet on that. Apple needs to retain leadership who worked with Jobs. Losing one or two people is meaningless, but you don't want to see to many of the top people go. The retail guy hasn't been at Apple long, so he isn't going to be missed. I wonder if he is responsible for the hiring freeze at Apple and the letting go of people recently hired. 

and once again, you come off as if you know EVERYTHING.

People come and go in corporations.

 

Big freakin' deal.

 

I have not had a single problem with the maps program and the turn-by-turn directions have been pretty damn accurate.

 

-----------------------

 

New CEO's routinely clean house and bring in "their" people.  My bet is that Forstall was a sacred cow that nobody liked, and Cook took the opportunity to deal with him.

Apple has to compete with the current version of Google Maps and other mapping programs, not what was released 5 years ago.

Edited by Haggar - 10/30/12 at 3:33pm

That story from the front is a total bs.

Look at it a bit deeper. A decision like this is not made overnight.

Gosh, he didn't need to wait the official shipment date of a product to know the Maps won't work well! In May 2012, Forstall cashes in 95% of his Apple shares, worth some $36 million or so.
Hey, 95%! What that tells you? He's leaving the boat.

iOS 6 features were nailed down long before the product was shipped, and the decision to switch from Google maps to Apple's own was a strategic move from the very beginning of iOS 6 development plans, a calculated risk and the CEO has blessed it. Perhaps even enticed it.

Now, why would Forestall apologise for the 'blunder' of Maps? First of all, only CEO of the company has to apologise publicly, he or she is company's public voice %u2014 not some VP no one knows about.

But as a VP and a head of the iOS development, I bet Forstall was against such a move at that stage of the iOS 6 application development %u2014 because he knew that for such application to function well a huge engineering infrastructure is required, which Apple has only partially completed. He'd need pushing engineers from different depts.

So what the consequences will be? Knowing it, and being a perfectionist himself, he probably didn't support such decision %u2014 it's his department that must take responsibility and shame for company's own strategic agenda. So he knew that well ahead, and prepared himself.

The whole MAP app thing is a smokescreen, a total bs. And that decision could be just one of many company compromises that, in his mind, should never happen. Perhaps he is of SJ's own mentality %u2014 and wanted to push other departments too to deliver results in time, like SJ would, and refused to be 'calm and peaceful'. So perhaps, he decided to stop pushing, stop arguing in the new climate of the company, and turn another page in his life.

Forestall himself weights now as much as some countries' premium lottery jackpot! He can do whatever he wishes. I wish him luck.

 

Bleh the mac pro thing was a little weird. They marked the 2 year old stuff as new again. Interestingly a lot of other companies still sell the westmere machines alongside the newer ones. I don't recall such things lasting this long in prior generations, so I'm not sure what to think of that. Maps and Siri could have been delayed if they weren't considered ready. Google has a lot of resources in this area, and quite a lot of experience. What could possibly be wrong with delaying a free bundled app if you don't feel okay with putting the company name on it at that time? The most likely situation is that they declared a deadline that was too aggressive for the level of polish that they wanted.

 

In that case, do you think people from Apple's marketing department should get chewed out or axed?

Depends on if they were directly involved with any incorrect marking and if there was anyone that purposely tried to misled customers, which I would bet against.

Bottom line, Apple is not in a position where it can stumble and get away with it. Every hiccup becomes front page news (and every one their competitors would change places with them in a heart beat) so they need to think or and work to counteract every possible way that a misstep could be blown out of proportion just as they have to have tighter controls in production in ways that other companies don't have to protect much of anything whilst Apple has to keep even their ribbon connections under heavy lock down as they will get photographed and spread like wildfire across the nets.

 

If you'd like to pretend that's what I said, that's fine. You've no reason to believe that from what I've said, but you can pretend just about anything these days. 

Completely agree with "slurpy". If Apple management are removing Forstall for so-called misses with Maps, Siri and passbook, then I fear we are heading down a dark road of Apple being steered by the popular tech media and reactionaries!

Does anyone else see the similarities here with the ousting of SJ under Sculley?

 

I disagree with the examples you have posted, but I'll leave this point with the following: 

 

"iPhone 5".