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Scott Forstall's refusal to sign iOS Maps apology letter contributed to departure, sources say - Page 2

post #41 of 167

LOL, how to get rid of an inconvenient VP:

 

1. assign impossible task (but seemingly possible enough so that the mile-high ego VP signs on)

2. don't veto the release of the results from this task

3. let the shit hit the fan

4. issue apology letter and let that VP lose face

5. make the case for this VP dismissal in front of the board. Because the failure cost Apple a fortune in reputation.

6. FIRED !!!

post #42 of 167
These are really sad news. It is stupid that Apple had to apologize for ignorant riotty people that make a huge deal out of the smallest things.

Wasn't just a coincidence that that antenna issue only affected customers in the US? When I first got my iPhone I use to hide in the closet and crush the metal band with my hand or tried to short circuit them with a piece of wire or aluminum in order to make them fail and verify whatever was going on and couldn't. Houses in my country are made out of concrete and rebar and stone making them a Wi-Fi nightmare but strong cell tower signals had no problem. This was a network issue.

Google Maps had never worked, directions were always wrong and my typing my address in would take me to another place in the country, not even in the city. To date, Google Maps still doesn't have the data right, even though there is Street View of my place. Association with TomTom changed all that, now I can safely ask for directions without the fear of it taking me to streets in the opposite way or streets that aren't there.

I'm glad Tim has taken Apple to a place where they finally have a strong lineup yet saddened that he's such a pushover. Apple shouldn't be apologizing for people's stupidness.
post #43 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

P.S. am I the only one that has no problems with Apple maps? I have used the Siri GPS function at least 10 times so far without a hitch. I have found no difference between this and the Google app version, other than the Apple app is much more elegant. 

I've voiced my opinions of Maps for a long time now from an objective PoV.The first two betas were slow on my iPhone 4 but I don't count pre-release SW in my overall opinion of a shipping product. I've also voiced my concern over the lack of a Street View replacement, a feature I do use.

That said, anecdotally i've found Maps to be a treat and great upgrade from the previous Maps app (emphasis on app). My issue has been that they "over promised and under delivered" a service by selling in a very specific way that would end up backfiring when there was more than enough excellent parts to showcase about their budding new app and service.

As a company with so much mindshare Apple can't do what others are doing and expect the same result. Apple is under the microscope with everything they do so they have to be sure what they claim will hold up in a much wider market. it's not a bad place to be and any reasonable company would trade places with them.

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post #44 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Solips... Is this true??? You don't know how to code a "Hello World"?? Say it ain't so! 1smile.gif

I got to Hell and never finished.

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post #45 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

 

You may think he's the greatest business executive after Jobs but if nobody wants to work with him he's basically useless for Apple.  There are very few people who have enough stature and prestige to be able to get away with your much cherished "F.U." attitude.  In business, Steve Jobs did.  Winston Churchill, in politics.  Douglas MacArthur in the military.  Who is Scott Forstall that he would be able to strut around as if he were Steve Jobs?  Especially towards his colleagues at Apple?  You think Ive, Schiller, & Mansfield, not to mention Tim Cook, would put up with an erstwhile colleague who starts acting like a self-appointed Steve Jobs mini-me?

Totally agree, unless you own the company, own all the shares, have no employees, then you better not have FU attitude. Btw Steve Jobs knew how to charm people, when it was needed to be done and did that very well!! 

post #46 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Knight View Post

Thank you for making my point.

what was your point???? You reply does not tell us what point, you were making or who you referring to, has helped you to make your point.

post #47 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

AND RIGHTLY SO!

Screw that. They don't have to apologize for ANYTHING. He knows how good it WILL be; why would he apologize for that? That's like Einstein's parents apologizing because their two year old was 'unruly'. Put it in context and it's not really important.

They did have to apologize. Just as I was stating since the first Beta, it wasn't the same experience that they showcased during the demo. Whether that is Forestall's doing or not, Apple had to apologize for raising expectations well above was feasible for their entry into a maps service.

Now Apple Maps is good, it's not Google Maps good on the backend, but it's still good with many great aspects to it, and as we've discussed ad nauseum they had no choice but to release this year to bring iOS out of the lack of TbT and bitmaps that we would have been saddled with for another year if they had stuck with Google Maps.

So giving Forestall the benefit of the doubt here and suggesting that he wanted a more timid Maps demo that didn't happen and sometimes you have to take one for the team so I think he should have signed the apology.

I think a better approach would have been to call a press event:
1) Tim make the apology as he did
2) Turn the session over to Scott
3). Scott tell what steps they are taking ti address the problems (more detail) and the long term advantages of staying the course
4). Back to Tim who summarizes the above

It's called T3:
1) Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
2) Tell 'em
3). Tell 'em what you told 'em

This would have been a better apology, and allowed the opportunity for Scott learn [the advantage of] humility by putting it to practice.
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post #48 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


I think a better approach would have been to call a press event:
1) Tim make the apology as he did
2) Turn the session over to Scott
3). Scott tell what steps they are taking ti address the problems (more detail) and the long term advantages of staying the course
4). Back to Tim who summarizes the above
It's called T3:
1) Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
2) Tell 'em
3). Tell 'em what you told 'em
This would have been a better apology, and allowed the opportunity for Scott learn humility by putting it to practice.

Yep that would have been a better approach, since the apology letter as you have stated, does not tell us, how Apple going to refine Maps (did not use the word 'fix', since it is refinement to ensure majority of users, enjoy the experience).

 

Edit: I know this is not related to discussion, very excited at getting my iPhone 5 on 5th November in India. The launch is 2nd, but I am away on business and could not get a flight back to pick up this beauty and get back to my meetings...lol

post #49 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

AND RIGHTLY SO!

Screw that. They don't have to apologize for ANYTHING. He knows how good it WILL be; why would he apologize for that? That's like Einstein's parents apologizing because their two year old was 'unruly'. Put it in context and it's not really important.

And that is why you are not running Apple.

 

Isn't this they guy who pushed a virtual leather address book???

post #50 of 167

Its also interesting the waited until after the earnings report. This has been in works for a while and they choose this day, week intentionally.

post #51 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think a better approach would have been to call a press event:
1) Tim make the apology as he did
2) Turn the session over to Scott
3). Scott tell what steps they are taking ti address the problems (more detail) and the long term advantages of staying the course
4). Back to Tim who summarizes the above
It's called T3:
1) Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
2) Tell 'em
3). Tell 'em what you told 'em
This would have been a better apology, and allowed the opportunity for Scott learn [the advantage of] humility by putting it to practice.

I disagree. I think the better approach was to been more transparent about Maps during the original demo to the point of preventing an impromptu apology and/or press event from being needed.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #52 of 167

2 words. Lazy media. No they did not have to apologize . 100 million people now have iOS on their devices and there is not the rioting outside of the Apple stores the media lead us to believe would happen due to how bad the Maps supposedly was. Guess what? It's not that bad and is in fact pretty good. Whatever Apple does there will be people in media who find it is easier to get web hits sensationalizing "news" than actual investigating an issue. 

post #53 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

And that is why you are not running Apple.

 

Touche!

post #54 of 167

Forstall lacks integrity: he oversold Maps and lacks an effective RDF. I can understand his not wishing to sign an apology letter--only because it's not in him. So he's gone and that's life. Survival of the fittest.

 

Federighi is highly accomplished yet humble.


Edited by Cpsro - 10/29/12 at 9:57pm
post #55 of 167
WOT...

Someone suggested that they should have named the recent hurricane "A-Rod" instead of "Sandy"... Then it wouldn't have hit anything!
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post #56 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarcoot View Post

Its also interesting the waited until after the earnings report. This has been in works for a while and they choose this day, week intentionally.

post #57 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

AND RIGHTLY SO!

Screw that. ...why would he apologize for that? That's like Einstein's parents apologizing because their two year old was 'unruly'. Put it in context and it's not really important.

 

I don't buy into the speculation about the reasons he left, however having said that I will accept it hypothetically for the purpose of replying to your question.

 

The bottom line is that Jobs, (In Jobs We Trust) put his faith in Cook, and if Cook made a decision that he wanted Forstall's signature on the public apology then we must trust that, otherwise it's just about ego and the ego is responsible for messing up most people's lives and it's Cook's job to not let ego mess up Apple.

post #58 of 167
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post
Touche!

 

Perhaps create an argument based in fact yourself before standing behind the equally flawed arguments of another.

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post #59 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

P.S. am I the only one that has no problems with Apple maps? I have used the Siri GPS function at least 10 times so far without a hitch. I have found no difference between this and the Google app version, other than the Apple app is much more elegant. 

It works perfectly for me.

post #60 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

P.S. am I the only one that has no problems with Apple maps? I have used the Siri GPS function at least 10 times so far without a hitch. I have found no difference between this and the Google app version, other than the Apple app is much more elegant. 
I'm no troll, check my posts...
But first use maps to find the town of Grenada, in Spain. 1oyvey.gif
post #61 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Perhaps create an argument based in fact yourself before standing behind the equally flawed arguments of another.

You also post opinions based on your personal observations not on some published statistically supported study.  So stop lecturing about the need to have "facts".  This is a discussion board, we bring our opinions to this board, some might be more valid than others but very rarely we have the proof to say one's opinion is categorically right or wrong. You, however, feel that you can declare somebody's arguments flawed just because you say so, then get all offended when somebody does that to you.  For a "global moderator", you sure don't understand that the first thing you should moderate is yourself.

post #62 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

WOT...
Someone suggested that they should have named the recent hurricane "A-Rod" instead of "Sandy"... Then it wouldn't have hit anything!

If its' a legitimate hurricane nature has ways of shutting it down.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #63 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think a better approach would have been to call a press event:
1) Tim make the apology as he did
2) Turn the session over to Scott
3). Scott tell what steps they are taking ti address the problems (more detail) and the long term advantages of staying the course
4). Back to Tim who summarizes the above
It's called T3:
1) Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em
2) Tell 'em
3). Tell 'em what you told 'em
This would have been a better apology, and allowed the opportunity for Scott learn [the advantage of] humility by putting it to practice.

I disagree. I think the better approach was to been more transparent about Maps during the original demo to the point of preventing an impromptu apology and/or press event from being needed.

I agree with that... But they didn't do it and the damage was done -- requiring some response from Apple. Tim chose a letter, IMO, the approach outlined above would have better addressed the apology issue and grown Scott at the same time.

Sometime letting one save face earns you an ally for life.
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post #64 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

You also post opinions based on your personal observations not on some published statistically supported study.  So stop lecturing about the need to have "facts".  This is a discussion board, we bring our opinions to this board, some might be more valid than others but very rarely we have the proof to say one's opinion is categorically right or wrong. You, however, feel that you can declare somebody's arguments flawed just because you say so, then get all offended when somebody does that to you.  For a "global moderator", you sure don't understand that the first thing you should moderate is yourself.

 

tundra, your post is entirely without merit. Tallest, made a completely valid point and that was that a single word response "touché" to someone else's post criticising TS, is just the 'big dog, little dog' syndrome. 'touché" as response to another poster is just bullshit it's not in any way 'discussion', TS was not complaining about being criticised he was complaining about someone else just quoting another post and going "me too", after all that is why we have the thumbs up crap isn't it?

post #65 of 167
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
3) Based on your comment you are a previously banned poster…

 

Hmm. I don't see this. I see hatred and perhaps even insults directed at other users of this site, but nothing that says to me "I've had an account here before and think I'm really clever in that I've slipped in a reference to it".

 

Because those happen a lot, and they're usually not subtle at all. Case in point, these accountslol.gif

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post #66 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

P.S. am I the only one that has no problems with Apple maps? I have used the Siri GPS function at least 10 times so far without a hitch. I have found no difference between this and the Google app version, other than the Apple app is much more elegant. 
I'm no troll, check my posts...
But first use maps to find the town of Grenada, in Spain. 1oyvey.gif

I had no problem finding Granada, Spain! Currently looking at the Alhambra and the Generalife!

Now, Grenada [sp] is somewhere else altogether...
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 10/29/12 at 9:37pm
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post #67 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I had no problem finding Granada, Spain! Currently looking at the Alhambra and the Generalife!
Now, Grenada [sp] is somewhere else altogether...

Good catch, I missed that.
post #68 of 167
1. Steve Jobs was a unique personality. Not every one can get away with being unapologetic. He could. I

2. During SJ's years at Apple, specifically the rise of iOS, Apple was at the top of the game and far, far ahead. That lead is no longer the case.

3. I am not a fan of skeumorphic UI. I think Ive over seeing UI for software is a Good Thing.

4. From CNET: "In fact, Forstall recently sent an email to some of the folks on Apple's iOS software team saying that the group "wasn't working on enough big ideas in mobile software," according to the WSJ. That's effectively saying that Forstall thought the company was struggling to compete, so it's no surprise that tensions were mounting." http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57542297-37/apples-scott-forstall-ousted-after-refusing-to-sign-apology-reports-say/

I completely agree with Forstall on this point.

Final Thoughts:

Forstall's departure carries with it a trade off.

Thus, it's hard to say whether its a good thing or a bad thing.

Likewise, its hard to say whether Apple will continue to be innovative or not.

The future of Apple seems up in the air at this point.

I like the fact that Apple that didn't used to apologize (at least so directly, didn't compare products to competitors (so directly), and didn't bad mouth other products (explicitly).

I liked that Apple never responded to market pressure, but rather created new markets.

I enjoy my iPhone 5, iPad 3, and have not yet had a problem with Maps.
post #69 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

If its' a legitimate hurricane nature has ways of shutting it down.

Yes but only if you have (the correct) faith.

As for me yes they over 'sold' maps, but don't think the apology was appropriate. While the furor has died down, the after taste is still there. Similar to FCPX. Should have simply said what 'revisions' are coming to make it insanely great.
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post #70 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

AND RIGHTLY SO!


Screw that. They don't have to apologize for ANYTHING. He knows how good it WILL be; why would he apologize for that? That's like Einstein's parents apologizing because their two year old was 'unruly'. Put it in context and it's not really important.

While he is right, when the CEO says to make an apology, you shut up and make it. Taking one in the interest of keeping customer faith is important.

That said, I suspect the myriad of bugs and broken features plus the cell data bug that was and still is running up folks bills like mad were probably the bigger issues.

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post #71 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Sign a letter? What the hell? If it was his department- it's his fault- why force the guy to sign a letter?

It was his department, he was responsible for iOS. And yet you say why make him sign and admit that HIS department let customers done?

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post #72 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodification View Post

Steve Jobs would never sign an apology letter.

Nope, he held a press event and placated folks with free bumpers

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post #73 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


I agree with that... But they didn't do it and the damage was done -- requiring some response from Apple. Tim chose a letter, IMO, the approach outlined above would have better addressed the apology issue and grown Scott at the same time.
Sometime letting one save face earns you an ally for life.

 

But what if Tim/Ivy doesn't want this ally in the 1st place? 1wink.gif

 

During SJ's era, everyone comes and goes based on SJ's decision. Now that SJ's gone, people come and go based on who win and lose the political battles. That's how all big corporations work. Scott lost, Tim/Ivy won. 

post #74 of 167

It's debatable whether or not Apple should have apologized. But if that's the decision that was come to, Forstall's refusal to accept it may have been the last straw in a series of culture clashes and not falling in line. Even if you disagree with a decision, it's pretty bad if you stubbornly refuse and make your boss shoulder it. 

 

That and iOS is pretty tacky sometimes. Ice Cream Sandwich and Jelly Bean pretty much outclass it, which is sad. 

post #75 of 167

There is a lot of press lately that is just making Apple look stupid.

 

Why is Cook allowing so much fodder to be handed over to Google and the Android camp.

 

Quit apologizing, quit signing letters, quit firing people... it makes it look like Apple is falling apart at the seams. Exactly the power struggle that a lot of people foretold last year on October 5th.

 

Is Apple just going to be a "safe" company now. Afraid to go out on a limb. Everyone in fear of their jobs.

 

Should be interesting over the next few months.
 

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post #76 of 167

I never liked Scott's personality and I also doubt he had a lot of intimate information about the actual source code. He was a manager not a software architect. Apple will be fine in his absence. I'm sure his ongoing consulting contract is just to make sure there are no hidden software contingencies that are in limbo.

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post #77 of 167
I found the apology surprising. Yes, the media made a huge issue out of the new maps being less than perfect but then again, Google Maps were pretty horrendous when it launched with the original iPhone. If anything, I think expectations were set way too high.

I lean towards the side that argues the apology was unnecessary. I think a re-alignment of expectations was more in order.
post #78 of 167

I am glad he was let go. My experience with Maps was terrible - never gave me the right place - gave me wrong directions. After three incidents that led me to the wrong place, I gave up Maps and switched to Google Maps. 

post #79 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

I wouldn't have signed it either. It was a bullshit apology letter that validated the hyper-sensationalized, click-whore articles and noise made by thousands of trolls. Sure, the product isn't perfect. But the letter was worded in a way that would have made it very difficult for me to sign if Id worked on the product for years and was proud of what was accomplished. It was basically 'yeah, our product sucks, we're sorry but we'll try better next time.

 

**** that. I wish Forstall the best whatever he does. I believe that after Jobs, he's the most responsible for Apple's post 2007 explosion. That credit can't go to Ive. Macs have always had great hardware design, that hasnt increased their sales in any major way. Apple's current success is 95% attributable to iOS and the appstore. And Forstall had done an insanely incredible job with that, making them the most successful mobile OS and digital store on the planet. Not something to be scoffed at. iOS has also gotten steadily more powerful and feature filled, making careful changes while also preserving simplicity and intuitiveness. Thats also huge. The unceremonial dismissal of Forstall makes me sick, as is all the giddiness about his dismissal. Good thing these forums weren't available when SJ was forced out, I have no doubt the 'good riddance' comments would be identical. 

I understand that Forstall was excellent at taking credit for other's work. If so, then we may never really know how much was Forstall and how much was other's efforts. Or we may know in a couple years when iOS continues to rule without Forstall around. 

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post #80 of 167

If this is true, it has to be the dumbest reason ever to fire a guy who was so instrumental in Apple's revival.

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