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Scott Forstall's refusal to sign iOS Maps apology letter contributed to departure, sources say - Page 3

post #81 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by perpetual3 View Post

1. Steve Jobs was a unique personality. Not every one can get away with being unapologetic. He could. I
2. During SJ's years at Apple, specifically the rise of iOS, Apple was at the top of the game and far, far ahead. That lead is no longer the case.
3. I am not a fan of skeumorphic UI. I think Ive over seeing UI for software is a Good Thing.
4. From CNET: "In fact, Forstall recently sent an email to some of the folks on Apple's iOS software team saying that the group "wasn't working on enough big ideas in mobile software," according to the WSJ. That's effectively saying that Forstall thought the company was struggling to compete, so it's no surprise that tensions were mounting." http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57542297-37/apples-scott-forstall-ousted-after-refusing-to-sign-apology-reports-say/
I completely agree with Forstall on this point.
Final Thoughts:
Forstall's departure carries with it a trade off.
Thus, it's hard to say whether its a good thing or a bad thing.
Likewise, its hard to say whether Apple will continue to be innovative or not.
The future of Apple seems up in the air at this point.
I like the fact that Apple that didn't used to apologize (at least so directly, didn't compare products to competitors (so directly), and didn't bad mouth other products (explicitly).
I liked that Apple never responded to market pressure, but rather created new markets.
I enjoy my iPhone 5, iPad 3, and have not yet had a problem with Maps.

Hopefully it's not that bad, but do understand your concerns, especially for the iOS cash cows in the very long term.

And I tend to agree, the innovation level is not that high. Fortunately the 'polish' level is still very high and keeps me in iOS. But...IMO... Android JB is near parity(sorry everyone).

Prior AI article not withstanding.... Lets see what the Feds and major companies do with phones. Say what you want, BB it is(or has been) still king in govt and major companies. And in my major aerospace company iOS is out. Lack of direct enterprise control killed it(have to go through iTunes... The IT and security guys hate it... Rightly or wrongly). Feds have essentially said the same. Sure there are unique use cases, but they will not allow mail or other sensitive info on iOS devices. Apple has/had? A perfect opening to shutout all other platforms if they released a pure enterprise version. Instead, looks like Feds/major companies will go with Android or see how Win8 mobile works out(unified Exchange server). At this point I'd take anything for a work phone other than BB junk I have now.

And while im ranting... Also IMO, iPad mini is over priced to nexus7 etc. yes the mini is better, but will average Joe Schmo think it is worth it compare to $250?... Time will tell.

BTW I have a MB retina... Wow what a machine, but $$$$.

I don't mind Apple being a premium brand, just don't believe they can keep the high market share as it is now. Competition inevitably catches up on the sweet spots of the market.

End of rant... Sorry.
Edited by boeyc15 - 10/29/12 at 10:18pm
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post #82 of 167

You guys are missing the point.

 

The apology letter was not in response to the media firestorm associated with the Maps debacle.  The apology letter was directed at both Apple customers AND Apple employees.  Actually, I think it was directed more at Apple employees than customers.  Do you remember what Steve jobs said to the people who worked on MobileMe?  Let me quote the article by Lashinsky:

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-mobileme-failure-2011-5

 

 

Quote:

He asked the team what MobileMe was supposed to do. Someone answered, and Jobs said to that person (and everyone else), "So why the **** doesn't it do that?"

He continued, "You've tarnished Apple's reputation ... You should hate each other for having let each other down ... Mossberg, our friend, is no longer writing good things about us."

Right there and then he named a new executive to run the MobileMe service.

Lashinsky says most of the team that built the original service was disbanded.

 


Here, we have the Maps app.  It may not have been as epic failure as MobileMe in its first iteration, but it was still a failure by Walt Mossberg's (and by proxy, Steve Jobs's) standards.  What do you think should happen to the guy responsible for the Maps app?  

 


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-mobileme-failure-2011-5#ixzz2Akxm9uw4

post #83 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogJack View Post

 

I don't buy into the speculation about the reasons he left, however having said that I will accept it hypothetically for the purpose of replying to your question.

 

The bottom line is that Jobs, (In Jobs We Trust) put his faith in Cook, and if Cook made a decision that he wanted Forstall's signature on the public apology then we must trust that, otherwise it's just about ego and the ego is responsible for messing up most people's lives and it's Cook's job to not let ego mess up Apple.

 

Jobs leaving, left a huge ego vacuum. It would seem to be natural that some kind of struggle may have gone on to fill that vacuum. Apple needs to be a company without someone like Jobs for a while. He was unique. Apple will be a company struggling to develop an identity for a while because, for too long, Apple was Jobs, and Jobs was Apple. Jobs foresaw this and instituted a educational plan to see the culture he put in place continue to keep Apple insanely great. Forstall may have made a break from that vision; doing so would go along with his personality. Anyway, I believe that Cook will be more likely than anyone to hold to Job's vision and cut anyone loose that endangers that plan going forward. 

post #84 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

Scott is leaving a rich man. Screw Apple!
Apple was too damn eager to put that iso map out. I'm sure Scott told them it wasn't ready but you know Tim, them fingers went snapping all in Scott's face.

No we don't know Tim and I suspect neither do you. Nor do you likely have any facts to back up this version of things.

For all we know Scott decided on the demo because he was certain Maps would be ready and Tim trusted him to live up to that. But then Forstall and team failed and on top of it, Forstall refused to take the blame publicly.

Both are equally possible given the lack of verified information. But given the horror stories about how Forstall refused to listen to feedback from anyone, spent weeks on his precious skeumorphic bits like the shadows on the volume knob and then iOS 6 released with major bugs, sent out emails to his team bad mouthing other execs including even Cook etc, I"m more inclined to believe he was not the innocent you paint him to be.
post #85 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

I wouldn't have signed it either. It was a bullshit apology letter that validated the hyper-sensationalized, click-whore articles and noise made by thousands of trolls. Sure, the product isn't perfect. But the letter was worded in a way that would have made it very difficult for me to sign if Id worked on the product for years and was proud of what was accomplished. It was basically 'yeah, our product sucks, we're sorry but we'll try better next time.

 

**** that. I wish Forstall the best whatever he does. I believe that after Jobs, he's the most responsible for Apple's post 2007 explosion. That credit can't go to Ive. Macs have always had great hardware design, that hasnt increased their sales in any major way. Apple's current success is 95% attributable to iOS and the appstore. And Forstall had done an insanely incredible job with that, making them the most successful mobile OS and digital store on the planet. Not something to be scoffed at. iOS has also gotten steadily more powerful and feature filled, making careful changes while also preserving simplicity and intuitiveness. Thats also huge. The unceremonial dismissal of Forstall makes me sick, as is all the giddiness about his dismissal. Good thing these forums weren't available when SJ was forced out, I have no doubt the 'good riddance' comments would be identical. 

 

It was the first example where Cook pandered to rumor instead of doing what they should have done, issued a Beta status until it was ready for prime time and pushed off the release of iOS 6 by issuing iOS 5.5 retroactively pushing out iOS 6 with the matured and met Maps.app.

 

The one motto we brought from NeXT above all others simply being, ``Undersell, over deliver'' and this time they over sold and under delivered. That was a failure from the top and the board where Steve with carte blanche would have simply pushed back the date. This is nothing like antennagate. This is software. Fix it and release it when it is ready, not before hand.

post #86 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by galore2112 View Post

LOL, how to get rid of an inconvenient VP:

 

1. assign impossible task (but seemingly possible enough so that the mile-high ego VP signs on)

2. don't veto the release of the results from this task

3. let the shit hit the fan

4. issue apology letter and let that VP lose face

5. make the case for this VP dismissal in front of the board. Because the failure cost Apple a fortune in reputation.

6. FIRED !!!

 

That's the way some companies do things, but I don't see it as the way Apple operates internally. Nor does Apple ever want to throw something out on the market that's SHIT just so they can get rid of someone. It just don't play when you understand Apple's focus on the customer's experience.

post #87 of 167

Cook is showing that he has little backbone, and has been bowing down to any kind of media/internet critisism. The logical course of action would be to have weathered the maps thing, as its already completely off the radar. Instead, he pens an embarrassing, groveling, sniveling apology letter, and forces the most important guy at Apple, who has given so much to the company and has an inumerable amount of successes, out the door. Imagine what would have happened if he was CEO when the iPad was revealed- there was near unanimous panning of the thing. He would have probably given in, either cancelled it before it hit shelves, or threw on OSX to appease the naysayers. He doesnt have conviction, and listens to the useless noise machine that is the internet and the media. Steve had conviction. He knew that most people are pretty fucking stupid, most complaints are short sighted and asinine, and he believed in the vision and seeing the forest for the trees. Cook apparently panics whenever the sees some trees. This was not worth throwing Forstall under the bus over, and kicking him out of the company. There's a reason Steve liked him so much. He had conviction. 

post #88 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

. Instead, he pens an embarrassing, groveling, sniveling apology letter,

Hyperbolic much
Quote:
and forces the most important guy at Apple, who

Was supervising development of one the key Apple products and released it with huge bugs. Customer experience destroying bugs that render wifi dead, that cause the phone to continue to use cell data when in wifi etc. that is a major problem.
Quote:
has given so much to the company and has an inumerable amount of successes, out the door.

Which is why these issues are unacceptable. Forstall knew better.
Quote:
Steve had conviction. He knew that most people are pretty fucking stupid, most complaints are short sighted and asinine,

Which is why he reemed the Mobile Me team for the shitty launch, why he held a media event over the 'asisine' antenna stories and then still gave out bumpers

Also you don't know the story with Forstall leaving. Perhaps he wanted to go on his own and this advisor thing was Tim's doing so he could stay on the books and get his big stock payout next year.
post #89 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


The one motto we brought from NeXT above all others simply being, ``Undersell, over deliver'' and this time they over sold and under delivered. That was a failure from the top and the board where Steve with carte blanche would have simply pushed back the date. This is nothing like antennagate. This is software. Fix it and release it when it is ready, not before hand.

Unless you are going to claim you were in the room, you don't know who promised what and failed to deliver. Perhaps it was Forstall who said everything would be perfect and then it wasn't, not Cook forcing him to release something half baked.
post #90 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

This really sucks. Everything that has made apple so successful these past 5 years- the iPhone, the iPad, the iPod touch, Siri... have been Scott's brainchildren. And now Apple is so quick to get rid of him? On the other hand, perhaps he can be replaced with somebody that can make iOS more like OS X and not like the very limited interface that it is now. 
Forstall was the brainchild behind all of this? Really? Then how come he got 3 mentions in Walter Isaacson's Jobs biography while Ive gets a whole chapter. And how come Forstall is gone while Ive's (among others) role at Apple was expanded?
post #91 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Forstall was the brainchild behind all of this? Really? Then how come he got 3 mentions in Walter Isaacson's Jobs biography while Ive gets a whole chapter. And how come Forstall is gone while Ive's (among others) role at Apple was expanded?

 

Forstall headed the iOS team. That's a FACT. Noone outside of Apple really knows for SURE the real reason why he's gone, but either way you can't take those things away from him, like you seem to ready and willing to do. Yes, he was the brainchild behind many of those things, and pretty much the entire infrastructure of iOS which makes it so efficient, responsive, smooth, powerful, and a mobile OS that hundreds of millions of people love and use. People buy iPhone because of iOS, not the hardware. It's pretty despicable to pretend suddenly that Forstall wasn't an extremely critical part of Apple. What Sj chose to talk about in his bio made for public consumption is irrelevant. Forstall's role and influence is well known. How else would he have stayed at Apple so long while being promoted, and being such a prominent part of most keynotes? Its also well known he was loved by Steve. I doubt that happens easily, knowing how difficult it is to earn Steve's admiration and trust. I guess he just didn't fit into the new 'huggle and friendly' Apple by Cook, that always believes everyone else is right and its wrong, ready to throw its most important people under the bus at the slightest provocation while penning endless apology letters. Steve didnt fire his engineering team after antennagate. He held a conference, EDUCATED people on why the antenna system was so great, gave CONTEXT by comparing it to other products, and provided a solution. He didnt say 'we fucked up and shipped a shitty product' while firing important people for show, which is exactly what Cook has done. 


Edited by Slurpy - 10/29/12 at 11:03pm
post #92 of 167
So Forstall thought the iOS team wasn't working on enough big ideas in mobile software. Hmmm...isn't Forstall basically responsible for that team? Sounds to me like someone in Forstall's camp is leaking to the press to shift the blame from Forstall to people who worked for him. Sorry but the buck has to stop with someone and usually that someone is the top dog.
post #93 of 167

Cook is going to fill Apple with a bunch of gentle spoken yes-men who will transform Apple into a new version HP or M$. They happily make crappy stuff.

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post #94 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post

P.S. am I the only one that has no problems with Apple maps? I have used the Siri GPS function at least 10 times so far without a hitch. I have found no difference between this and the Google app version, other than the Apple app is much more elegant. 

Of course you're not the only one, but Apple is judged by a very high standard. If Microsoft releases a half-assed product or service NOBODY CARES, and certainly no SVP would be fired over Microsoft's failure to ship a mature product on the first try. But this is not Microsoft. Apple has to be goddamned 100% perfect. The first time.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #95 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Wait, you REALLY don't know about this? And this and this?

 


This precisely answers my point TS.  The first two "apology" letters are signed by whom??  The CEO!!!!  The 3rd one in your list is simply a generic "Apple" signature which as far as I'm concerned is stamped by the CEO.

The ONLY person of a publicly-owned company that should be making ANY kind of a public apology (written or spoken) is the CEO.  No one else (including Forstall) has any business making official public statements representing the company.  This is why I think this "rumor" is complete B.S.  I'm just shaking my head in sheer disappointment with some folks here that don't seem to get that.

Now, assuming for a moment that Forstall did get the axe for the Maps fiasco, what "should have" and possibly "did" happen is that Tim Cook would have summoned him to his chambers (as Jobs did with the MobileME staff) and chew him out for tarnishing the Apple name.  Forstall would be fired or disciplined in some way, perhaps a footnote written somewhere, and then Tim Cook would (and rightfully so) take the hit for the company and make the apology himself since it was ultimately Tim Cook's job as CEO to do it.  He gets the glory, and the shame.  Everyone else just gets fired.  Period.

If the CEO asked me to sign a public apology letter, I'd too give him the big F.U. as Jobs most likely would do in the exact same position.  It does nothing whatsoever except maybe playing some humiliation game.

That's assuming that this rumor is true, which as of right now I flat-out refuse to believe.  You guys are really being gullible on this.

btw TS, you're right.  I forgot about those letters.  My bad.  My point still stands though.  Peace! :)

post #96 of 167
Looking for scapegoat is not going to lead to a better Maps app. Apple had taken a new approach with maps, things are bound to go wrong but dumping your man at the first sight of trouble is cowardice. Just my 2 cents.
post #97 of 167

Scott Forstall has long been rumored to be Jobs's mini-me. Don't you get it? Being forced out is all part of playing out that role. He asked to be fired ... He will return in a decade to bring Apple back from ashes and restore the glories of skueomorphic design.

post #98 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Forstall was the brainchild behind all of this? Really? Then how come he got 3 mentions in Walter Isaacson's Jobs biography while Ive gets a whole chapter. And how come Forstall is gone while Ive's (among others) role at Apple was expanded?


Because when you lose a power struggle, you lose your powers to your foe.

post #99 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodification View Post

Cook is going to fill Apple with a bunch of gentle spoken yes-men who will transform Apple into a new version HP or M$. They happily make crappy stuff.


Absurd and ill-informed.

post #100 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

 

Jobs leaving, left a huge ego vacuum. It would seem to be natural that some kind of struggle may have gone on to fill that vacuum. Apple needs to be a company without someone like Jobs for a while. He was unique. Apple will be a company struggling to develop an identity for a while because, for too long, Apple was Jobs, and Jobs was Apple. Jobs foresaw this and instituted a educational plan to see the culture he put in place continue to keep Apple insanely great. Forstall may have made a break from that vision; doing so would go along with his personality. Anyway, I believe that Cook will be more likely than anyone to hold to Job's vision and cut anyone loose that endangers that plan going forward. 

 

I agree.  Do you think Cook looked at Forstall and said:  "I knew Steve Jobs.  Steve Jobs was a friend of mine.  You are no Steve Jobs!"

post #101 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

Forstall headed the iOS team. That's a FACT. Noone outside of Apple really knows for SURE the real reason why he's gone, ....... He didnt say 'we fucked up and shipped a shitty product' while firing important people for show, which is exactly what Cook has done. 

No one knows what happened, yet you know exactly what and why Cook has done. Uh huh ...

post #102 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


Also you don't know the story with Forstall leaving. Perhaps he wanted to go on his own and this advisor thing was Tim's doing so he could stay on the books and get his big stock payout next year.

The last person who was made an advisor, aka Bob Mansfield, now has more responsibilities than ever. Ergo, Forstall will follow this script and soon take over the whole company.

post #103 of 167
TBQH i think iOS has been stale for while now. I think Apple should allow more customizations of the home screen and other screens imo.
post #104 of 167
The firing of Scott Forstall brings back memories of John Sculley firing Steve Jobs.
post #105 of 167
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

 

Jobs leaving, left a huge ego vacuum. ...I believe that Cook will be more likely than anyone to hold to Job's vision and cut anyone loose that endangers that plan going forward. 

 

 

Yeah, I'll concur with your assessment. He'll hold the Vision probably even better than Ive as it requires a bit of distance. The time was right for Jobs to push his baby (Apple) out of the nest anyway, with a $B100 you're pretty well all growed up.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post

Scott Forstall has long been rumored to be Jobs's mini-me. Don't you get it? Being forced out is all part of playing out that role. He asked to be fired ... He will return in a decade to bring Apple back from ashes and restore the glories of skueomorphic design.

 

Mini Me, was not Dr Evil's apprentice in waiting, remember. 

post #106 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by infosprt View Post

The firing of Scott Forstall brings back memories of John Sculley firing Steve Jobs.

 

Except that Steve Jobs actually created Apple and Scott Forstall didn't.  It's fair to assume that when Steve Jobs died, he was content with the fact that Tim Cook had the power to fire Scott Forstall.  It's fair to assume Steve Jobs had a tremendous amount of faith in Tim Cook.  And it's fair to assume that Tim Cook knows a lot more about Apple and Scott Forstall than we do.  

 

The NY Times has reported that Forstall's peers are happier about his departure than they are about the World Series.  I kind of doubt that Jobs' peers felt that way when Sculley fired him.

post #107 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

TBQH i think iOS has been stale for while now. I think Apple should allow more customizations of the home screen and other screens imo.


It's not stale.  It's efficient, and useable.  Folks that would prefer to have fluff like animated wallpapers that suck batteries down and other non-essential time-wasters can move on to Android.  If and when Apple can evolve iOS to where it makes sense and enhances (and not distort) the user-experience, I'm all for it.

post #108 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by delreyjones View Post

 

Except that Steve Jobs actually created Apple and Scott Forstall didn't.  It's fair to assume that when Steve Jobs died, he was content with the fact that Tim Cook had the power to fire Scott Forstall.  It's fair to assume Steve Jobs had a tremendous amount of faith in Tim Cook.  And it's fair to assume that Tim Cook knows a lot more about Apple and Scott Forstall than we do.  

 

The NY Times has reported that Forstall's peers are happier about his departure than they are about the World Series.  I kind of doubt that Jobs' peers felt that way when Sculley fired him.

 

The times report alot of horse-shit from 'un-named' sources, usually to add to whatever sensational narrative it wants to push. Theres a good chance its bullshit or exaggerated. Steve Jobs also had tremendous faith in Forstall, otherwise he wouldnt have brought him over from next, gave him a major role in OSX development, then let him lead the most important team at Apple which is their mobile OS that would take the company into the future, then promote him again. Forstall must have proven himself a thousands times over to get that kind of responsibility and faith. Yet at the first sign of trouble, Cook throws him to the curb to satisfy the hungry media horde and internet Apple-hate machine, whose sole motivation is nothing but click-whoring. It's reprehensible. Forstall deserved better. 

post #109 of 167
Some people see in this is the total lack of leadership of Tim Cook .. Unable to weld his team.
Steve Jobs did more than 10 years with the team and Tim Cook in less than a year has managed to crack ...
For some, this is Tim Cook Apple's problem, because yes apple has a problem, it loses its image of an innovator firm replaced by a Financial Holding.

Tim Cook and his friends will spend more time to stay in power instead of moving Apple forward.
The real punishment may come from the competition and consumers disinterest.

Forstall has not only been on iOS projects but since the beginning of OSX he was one of the first system architects and a part of what apple is today, so he may go elsewhere, and imitate Rubin to fight apple.
He's replaced by the guy who made OS Lion and Mountain Lion, and many people complained and still complain about it.
Look at what happened with Steve Jobs and the creation of Next .... Will history repeats itself ?
20 years ago apple had to fight Microsoft, today you have to add Google, Samsung etc...
Edited by Prima Kingu - 10/30/12 at 12:44am
post #110 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodification View Post

Cook is going to fill Apple with a bunch of gentle spoken yes-men who will transform Apple into a new version HP or M$. They happily make crappy stuff.


Your psychiatrist called to make sure you're still taking your meds twice daily.

post #111 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

The times report alot of horse-shit from 'un-named' sources, usually to add to whatever sensational narrative it wants to push. Theres a good chance its bullshit or exaggerated. Steve Jobs also had tremendous faith in Forstall, otherwise he wouldnt have brought him over from next, gave him a major role in OSX development, then let him lead the most important team at Apple which is their mobile OS that would take the company into the future, then promote him again. Forstall must have proven himself a thousands times over to get that kind of responsibility and faith. Yet at the first sign of trouble, Cook throws him to the curb to satisfy the hungry media horde and internet Apple-hate machine, whose sole motivation is nothing but click-whoring. It's reprehensible. Forstall deserved better. 

 

 I agree.  This has such a stink to it.  Forstall did deserve better than have his name dragged around by the media lapdogs.  I hope the truth does come out someday, preferably from Scott's own mouth because everyone else seems to be drinking some kind of Kool-Aid.  Damn shame.

post #112 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

So more like it's pitched on its own page now, and less using of the marketing wordplay they originally had and used in keynotes? Taking it a step further, NOT using said wordplay in the keynotes at all, and simply pitching what they'd built it to do… ugh, what's the Latin phrase here. Two words… means "as operated" or… it's not in situ, but it's close to that… 

How about not saying anything at all. If it's not ready, it's not ready. Why is that hard to understand? I market a product as being ready and having it dismally fail is brand damaging. You don't see that?

post #113 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Sign a letter? What the hell? If it was his department- it's his fault- why force the guy to sign a letter? You aren't writing up a technician for being late or for sexual harassment. What an immature move on Apples part. Sign a letter? I'd tellem it was my department- I take the blame, but they can take that letter and shove it!

 

The signed apology letter is a bullshit big corporation move. I'm not surprised if Scott did tell them to go shove it. I think it's reasonably safe to regard this as one of the rarest occasions when you truly can use the words: this never have happened if Steve Jobs were still around.

post #114 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Macs have always had great hardware design, that hasn't increased their sales in any major way.

 

Mac Observer: "Put in perspective, back in 2005, Apple sold 4.5 million Macs for the entire Fiscal year, so that's another measure of how far Apple has come."

 

Especially with the PC market declining for quite a while now, I would say that is quite a feat. Of course it's not comparable to iPhone and iPad but still quite a feat.

 

On Macs alone, Apple makes around 20 billion revenue a year now - more than ever before.

post #115 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

That's because it wasn't. It was pretty much entirely fabricated. Maps, at launch, was FAR better than Google Maps at launch. 

 

 

Except aren't we comparing the competitive landscape of today instead of 2008 (or whenever people see as Google Maps being launched)? You see that is what the end consumer is likely comparing against. Apple itself never said during launch that this is going to be less accurate than Google maps for the time being or that there will be bugs did they?

 

The expectations then is pretty much a personal experience based on previous usage history, marketing and rumors amongst other factors. To state that the critisism was entirely fabricated is in my opinion obnoxious, since that assumes that your personal feelings or opinions are the only correct ones.

 

I'd guess that most of us understand that the level of accuracy that a global mapping solution requires is astounding and requires a massive amount of work -> bug are bound to exist. But does the consumer care if they are accustomed to the fact that everything Apple "just works"? Especially if marketing claims this? 

post #116 of 167

Apple's Maps App was one of the best decisions they have made of recent times. Sure it may have been difficult to map the entire world in the time they had, but in terms of a v.1 it blew away any other first version of mapping data.

 

For Apple, doing the Maps App was a must. They have learn't all to well from the past what happens when you rely on third parties to provide software for your platform - just ask Bill Gates. It's not long before they start thinking about producing their own copied versions (Windows, MS Office etc.) or in Maps case, making their own hardware and OS - Android. For Apple to be at the mercy of their competitor, Google, who refused to add turn-by-turn capabilities to their iOS maps in order for it to appear inferior to Android, or make their own App is a no-brainer. I applaud Apple for making the tough decision to ditch Google maps and for conceiving their own, vector based maps in such a short period of time.

 

I believe that Scott Forstall was right in not wanting to apologise (Microsoft never said sorry for Vista - and that's a whole operating system) for small errors in mapping data. The problem was not with the Application, it was with the data - which has taken Google many years to gather for their version, and which still contains basic errors. Will be sorry to see Scott depart over such a trivial issue that was just 'beat up' by a noisy minority that doesn't understand the real issues.


Edited by leighr - 10/30/12 at 2:21am
post #117 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogJack View Post

 

tundra, your post is entirely without merit. Tallest, made a completely valid point and that was that a single word response "touché" to someone else's post criticising TS, is just the 'big dog, little dog' syndrome. 'touché" as response to another poster is just bullshit it's not in any way 'discussion', TS was not complaining about being criticised he was complaining about someone else just quoting another post and going "me too", after all that is why we have the thumbs up crap isn't it?

 

Getting a bit off topic, but Tundra's post was - in my opinion - with some merit if you look at past posting history of said people. He may have just quoted TS for the wrong post when the proverbial straw broke the camels back on his part, but he does have a point. At least I feel (a personal opinion), that a moderator should have more restraint than others on the forum and should themselves follow the rules they impose on others to the T or even more strictly. I tend to respect people that follow their own published rules more. 

 

Maybe it's just TSs confrontational and often quite aggressive writing style (often writing in absolutes) that rubs me in the wrong way and colors my view of his posts. For example post #33 came off to me as condescending and fact assuming i.e. not stating factual claims as his own opinions, more like they were absolute facts and that tundra was a bit dimwitted for having an opposing opinion. In that post, the only factual part was the first answer. The rest were personal opinions colored with condescending remarks (Whoop de frick). That may have been another straw on the camels back before it eventually broke in post #61.

post #118 of 167

Scott Forstall is probably Apple's equivalent of Microsoft's Steven Sinofsky. Both strike me as megalomaniacs. This is OK at Microsoft because it's the only way of getting things done but at Apple it ruins the synergy. Well, whatever. I never like his shirts, they look like pyjamas.

post #119 of 167

You mean someone wrote the letter for Tim Cook and he didn't write it with his heart?

But seriously, I wasn't aware that Forstall was a fan of skeuomorphism or whatever it's called. Apparently Ive is going to bring some cool new ideas to iOS, about time!!

I'm now impatient to see iOS 7.

post #120 of 167
There goes the theory that one day he will be CEO. I didn't see this coming. I wonder, how do you lose a awesome paying gig like this and not feel the urge to jump off a bridge? It's one thing to take a $2 an hour pay cut to go to another job, but this.....wow.
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