Forstall's firing reportedly met with 'quiet jubilation' at Apple - Page 2

My thing is why not release maps to app store and just keep google maps as the default while you ramp up. I this this guy may have been responsible for apple prematurely getting rid of google maps on iOS devices before Apple had a comparable alternative.

Happy for Ive to get the combo role but I am a bit concerned that we might see more of the "form over function" decision making from him that has led to the new iMac having an SD slot on the back.

If the software equivalent of this comes to pass it would be an issue.

This opinion is predicated on one agreeing with me that an SD card slot in the back of an iMac is a really annoying placement...

 

Probably because it wasn't.

 

Do you know anyone else who led the team that created iOS and who is now free to go work for Google and give them directly what they've previously just stolen?

 

And that's ignoring the loss to Apple itself.

Personally, I think the OS could use a lot more features that would be needed.  I don't have any problems with Maps either, but that doesn't mean others don't.  FWIW, I thought Forstall's look in his eyes was a little creepy.   I know it's a small thing, but they guys have to keep their ego in check around the work place.  Actually, putting both iOS and OS X team under the same guy actually makes sense since they have to kind of worth towards the same goal.  

" firing was met with a sense of "quiet jubilation," particularly among those who worked in Apple's engineering groups. "

... so Forstall have same treat as Steve Jobs

this firing is not good for Apple in long run, for sure.

I wonder if this will bring some much needed changes to OS X and iOS. Aside from going more grey, very little has changed in in OS X since Tiger and iOS 6 is really little changed since iOS 3 save for Siri. I am not suggesting change just for the sake of it like Windows 8, but there are certainly a number of areas where Apple could make some big additions and improvements. I doubt I am the only one to feel that both OS X and iOS are getting a little stale and needs some major new features. At the very minimum you would think Apple would finally allow multiple users accounts on iOS especially for iPads where you might have several people sharing one but with different email accounts and apps.

 

No need.  Android is already perfect.

 

Well, you kind of lost me when you used the "form over function" argument which has been proven to be nonsense over and over again.  Neither Apple nor Ive can really be accused of doing "form over function," at least as long as the writer actually understands what the term means.  

 

You point to one minor example which could be interpreted that way (the SD card slot on the back), but there could be many other reasons for it's location there as well.  It could, for example, be related to the fact that the SD card slot itself is getting very little use in the first place.  

 

In other words this is only "form over function" for someone who uses that slot day in and day out (likely yourself), but if the number of people who need it there as much as you do is relatively small, then putting it on the back is instead a rather typical design tradeoff and not "form over function" at all.  

Noncompete clause..(If he doesn't have one he still has a nondisclosure agreement).
And if he doesn't have one of those... If you F*** with the bull, you get the horns...

Forestall is a part of the software division therefore he only knew about the software applications not the hardware devices... And having released all the new products that pretty much means his Exposure is not that great...
and with Tim Cook having shown that he's not afraid to fire people... I would think he's not afraid to Sue Scott Forstall into oblivion if Scott Forstall starts giving away secrets that he shouldn't... i.e. ones that are covered under nondisclosure agreement...

And although Scott Forstall has his name on patents... They were developed at Apple so therefore Apple has the controlling interest in said patents.

For Scott Forstall to be a CEO he needs to follow the Career path of Steve Jobs meaning he has to buy innovation from another company with his Apple stock, create a Pixar like division sell it get $6 billion and then become CEO...

(LOL Siri added the buy innovation from another company... (yes i said it but in a different way),,, but it is so true!... that division from ILM was innovation and Steve Jobs made it what it is today!...)
Edited by haar - 10/30/12 at 7:43am

What could he "steal"? An idea? With totally different code it's not as tho anything in iOS could be interchanged with Android and vice-versa. 

 

I know you state that you aren't advocating change for changes sake alone, but that's pretty much what your entire comment says.  

 

The only feature you mention is user accounts on the iPad, but that seems both unworkable and awkward to me.  The device is intended to be used by one person, the entire OS is set up that way as is the hardware.  

 

I think people asking for multiple user accounts in iOS is similar to users asking for a second steering wheel in the back seat of every car.  It might indeed be handy for those times when Dad falls asleep at the wheel and threatens to kill the family, but it sort of goes against the whole concept of "car" and "driving," and cannot be accomplished without a huge wasting of resources.  

 

He's an idea guy.  He's the guy that thought up a lot of the ideas that became iOS.  

 

Inside his head, are all the ideas they've been kicking around for improving iOS for the next few years also.  Who knows what they are? 

My thoughts exactly. I emailed Tim Cook and reminded him that Steve wasn't considered likable either. This decision will not bode well for the company, and I expect to see him make waves elsewhere in the industry.

 

 

How is that relevant?

 

 

Could be a combination of both. But I believe the firing is more than about being a jerk or about messing up on maps. Look at the heading of their press release: "Apple Announces Changes to Increase Collaboration Across Hardware, Software & Services"

 

It is about being able to integrate software and hardware. They can't do that effectively when Ive and Forstall cannot work together. I can work with jerks, but I cannot work with intransigent nice guys who will say one thing and do another, or will not take responsibility for screw-ups. And there have been copious software screw-ups, including but not limited to Maps. There are good reasons to question their software QA, just as is the case at Google and Microsoft too. I can remember a time when new software releases were not so laden with fundamental but also easily discovered bugs.

 

 

First, UI is not just about design. It is much deeper and broader. Second, industrial design and software design share only one thing in common: the word design. To say that he is a designer and is therefore qualified to lead user interface is - I am sorry to say - simply ignorant. I am saying Ive is not going to do great (he will if he is an adviser), but I can tell you there are software people at Apple who are quietly worried.

 

I believe this re-org can and will work. But I also believe that the reason for it will be the rise of Craig Federighi, and another software star. Or perhaps, they can lure back Bertrand Serlet.

Edited by Harbinger - 10/30/12 at 7:58am

 

Sh!t.  Why didn't Cook think of this before letting him go?

 

Seriously, if he was fired/pushed out, Cook probably determined that the harm he was doing and was capable of doing internally outweighed the benefits of having him there and the harm he is capable of doing externally.

 

Un-seriously, maybe he is some sort of Trojan Horse/Manchurian Candidate heading up to Mountain View.  Or maybe he truly is the future CEO of Apple, Inc. and this begins his time in exile from the company.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and ignore the obvious point of your post—

 

"Of course," he says, respectfully bowing a little.

 

—of course (I reply, returning the compliment), and mention that, while operationally Android is far inferior and cannot replace iOS in regard to usability, it can sure be installed on the same hardware. 

 

"But that doesn't address my point."

 

Again, I'm purposely ignoring it. I know that you have to hold that position for whatever reason, and I'll just leave it at that. We already know the truth.

 

I keep hearing this comment about Ive "being put in charge of both groups," but as a former designer I can say with some authority that being good at 3D design or Industrial design does not in any way translate to being good at 2D design or indeed, software design.  They are different disciplines with entirely different skill sets.  

 

You only have to look at Ive's horrible taste in clothes, houses, and almost everything else to see that being an uber-cool industrial designer doesn't give him blanket authority to design the rest of the world as well.  At best, Ive could possibly choose between two competing options on the basis of his personal taste alone, but the future design of iOS 6 is now up to Federighi, and whomever is sort of second in command behind Forestall, not Ive.  

 

The executive shuffling is just about who is overseeing things.  I would be far more comfortable if they would announce who it is exactly that is going to step into Forestall's shoes in terms of design and design management.  Who is actually going to do the work?  

 

So far we actually don't know who's "taking over" from Scott Forestall.  

 

Exactly, UI design ≠ hardware design. BUT, I'm confident that he knows this. I doubt he'd take this responsibility if he didn't either A. think it would be cool to learn how to do properly or B. have already learned how to go about this sort of thing.

 

Or even C. not think there is anyone else out there that could do it credit.

To say "Jony Ive knows nothing about software" is such an asinine and ignorant remark.

Not knowing how to write code doesn't mean you can't see if a bit of software/app is simple to use and not bloated.

In industrial design, like architecture, and likewise software "less is more" and Jony Ive is a master of the first so, why not, the last?

As to "skeumorphic" - it's like having plastic flowers in the Villa Savoie.

 

Not really. Not at all, in fact. The alternative is having painted pieces of straight, unworked steel with the word "flower" written on each in pen. You think THAT is better? Look at Windows 8.

I am afraid it is your remark that is ignorant.

 

 

I am afraid you're making your ignorant statements based on reading blogs and associated comments.

He has to journey up a mountain top with nothing but a goat and a pack of dry rations

 

Sigh ...

 

What is better is subjective. But people have been reading about skeumorphism lately and are jumping on the bandwagon of trashing it, without truly understanding UI design. It is not as simple as less is more vs. skeumorphism.

 

There are quite a few former Apple engineers out there who have worked on iOS. But no question Forstall knows the future of iOS better than anyone. This is why he will remain as an "adviser" for a period of time. Mansfield is developing technology that will deprogram Forstall's memory. But seriously, the adviser role is euphemism for "shut up and let us change all the keys, or the blueprint".

 

Ah, what is most usable is different in different situations. At times it's best to have zero skeuomorphism. At times it's best to be as skeuomorphic as possible.

 

The all or nothing belief is the only really wrong answer, on both ends!

 

If all the "bitterness" and "hatred" in these stories is true, that doesn't sound like something that will ever happen. In fact, it sounds more like he'd jump to a competitor.

Tallest Skil

 

I take your point, but if the bits of steel are cut by Frank Stella or someone of his ilk or skill I can live with it. A "stitched" address mimicking some aircraft seat make kitsch look aesthetic.

 

Harbinger

 

Again I take your point. Industrial design (and I have worked alongside one of the best known) is not dissimilar to architecture. You are, in architecture, at the top of a pyramid of experts who are all trying to supply the client with what he wants and which will work. That leader has to make judgements on each of the contributions and decide which combinations make the best solution. I, personally, think that Jony Ive can make those judgements.

He wouldn't be hired as a designer. Although Forstall might have been in charge of the design team doing those UIs, he wouldn't be the one drawing them.

Those things might not have been related though - Tim Cook sold shares round that time too. Plus, there were no signs of impending departure at WWDC in June. So 4 months at the longest.

There are stories about Rubinstein not liking Forstall and Tony Fadell leaving partly due to Forstall and of course a software engineer called him an asshole and now we hear about clashes with Ive and Mansfield but this info could be coming from people wanting to get rid of him and it could be overblown. How many arguments, how heated, how often?

We hear these kind of stories a few times and the genuine reasons turn out to be different from the rumours.

That's right, Forstall goes all the way back to NeXT. You don't work on a project like that for over 15 years without intimately knowing where it came from and where it's going. Although he was in the audience, Serlet is out too. Now we get Federighi and it seems they might have updated the bio page already:

http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/craig-federighi.html

"Craig oversees the development of iOS, Mac OS X and Apple's common operating system engineering teams."

He also goes back to NeXT but there was a huge gap in between. Maybe he'll bring new ideas to the table and being in charge of both iOS and Mac OS could mean good things. Time will tell. I will miss Scott's presentations though.

This from the guy who wanted to see plastic on the back of the iPad mini!!!

Be sure and tell me if I have you confused with someone else who doesn't get what Ive is doing.

As for everything else, all I know is that the v-neck t-shirt is made of some good fabric, great color for him, and way better than the black pajama shirt with stripes that Mr. Forstall wore. And a Bentley isn't a bad choice if you have to commute down the 280 every day.

The message of Ive is: Radical Minimalization.

First action: Removal of screen. It just disturbs the beautiful shape of the device.

2nd action: Removal of device. Ive thinks: Your hand is so beautiful that a rectangular device in it is just disturbing.

 

This will be his masterpiece.

I already miss Scott Forstall. OSX and iOS are HIS babies!

Regular mundane employees and engineers didn't know a week ahead of time that one of the top 5 executives in Apple was going to lose his job?  What a crazy concept....

 

Yeah, but 95% of his shares?

 

And Tim should listen to you because... you knew Steve Jobs and Scott Forstall better than he did?

I'm sure the people quietly celebrated when Steve Jobs let Apple in the 1980's and look where they went afterwards. Apple is now on the path of a slow but dramatic decline.

I'm wondering if Mansfield's departure and even Bertand Serlet (now that there are rumors of his return) and Jony's alleged consideration of moving back to the UK were all connected to Forstall and Cook saw what was going on and decided to take action.

 

I've seen this exact kind of thing happen in organizations before (multiple times). There's one person that seems to protected, untouchable, not going anywhere...and they are, in effect, a cancer on the organization and others get to the point where they cannot or will not take any more and start leaving (or threatening to leave.) Sometimes the leadership sees what is happening and fixes the problem. Other times it goes on long after the damage has been done.

 

 

It is starting to sound a lot like Forstall was a big problem.

A few points:

 

1) Someone had to go between the OSX and iOS teams. Clearly they are duplicating purpose. If OS X gets a facelift, then iOS seems to get little done. For iOS 6  the mail team added a "rule" - i.e. the VIP rule. Thats about a man days effort, if that. The other additions were Maps, Passbook, and the Phone app, podcasts and videos etc:  nothing shared in common with OS X. The other teams - i.e. AppKit -  were OS X focused, little was added to iOS 6. They need to integrate the OS to stop this see-saw in effort.

2) If they do integrate the teams there can be only one real SVP to rule them all. One or the other. Forstall was positioning himself as the leader, but was disliked ( Craig is not really - in my opinion - proved himself either but he is the leader).

3) There is already a software design team. They have good guys - check out Bas Ording and his patents. Steve Jobs used to effectively run that team - he was the final decision maker on design, on go or no go. The actual manager of software design is just a people manager. ( Nobody here is a coder by the way).  Forstall probably took over Jobs' roll, it didn't work, so now Ive gets it. Ive won't be doing the design - if I am right - he will be saying no, or yes, to design, and opposing skeuomorphism in all its forms.

4) Maps and Siri to Eddy Cue - a very good move.

 

mostly good tidings, therefore.

Forstall is not Jobs, he's just a guy,

 

If Forstall has the same level of talent, vision and style as Jobs not to mention the motivational traits...then you may be right. It's hard to know if any of that is true at this point.

Forstall out, Browett out, and Ive taking on a bigger role, etc. 

 

Ok.

 

Like, this isn't really a big deal. I've always kinda liked Forstall, but Ive is worth his weight in gold. 

 

Good luck to Scott. 

 

*shrugs*

 

Already been done:

 

http://www.theonion.com/articles/apple-claims-new-iphone-only-visible-to-most-loyal,2772/

 

I believe he could argue that is invalid if he was "fired" as they can't prevent him from making a living within his field of expertise.  A noncompete usually only is there to prevent you from getting knowledge, leaving, then competing directly against the company you left.