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Jony Ive's minimalist designs could reshape the future of iOS, OS X - Page 4

post #121 of 132
I like the current UI. I don't see a need to change it much.

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iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
Mac mini Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz 8GB RAM, iPhone 5 32GB Black

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post #122 of 132
What will be key - and I think Ive's get this - is that the changes go deeper than just remaking some UI design elements and getting rid of skeuomorphic cuteness that looks cheap and childish. Going deeper into how someone actually uses an app or service, and looking for ways to improve on that. Rethinking old paradigms. And since Ive's is a creative person I hope he helps move Apple back to being a company that designs products to create things not just consume them.
post #123 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianward View Post

Saying that many of OS X's apps are half-finished (by describing Image Capture as an "odd grab bag") the author demonstrates that perhaps he isn't aware of the heritage of the operating system. Image Capture serves a very good purpose, and there's a very important reason it stays within OS X, yet isn't used by most users.

Understanding that an operating system must satisfy not only the superficial users who aren't interested in stuff they "don't get", but also those users who rely and trust these unheard of features for their work is fundamental to getting any overhaul correct. Ive is the right man for the job, because he has demonstrated he is capable of doing this with hardware, which in my mind must be even harder than with software.

Remember when Jobs stood up and announced NTLMv2 authentication in Kerberos by saying "whatever that is"? This perfectly describes how different people come to need different things from the same product - you can't just remove it because it's obscure and very few people use it, but you can rethink it and make it easier and better for those that do need, and transparent for those that don't. And this is where Apple win and Microsoft fail. Big time.


Thank you thank you thank you! You're the only one commenting on this crucial topic. Excellent points, excellent post. If the author doesn't understand the necessity of Image Capture, he doesn't have an iPad+CCK. IC is the only program that can easily delete images imported with the CCK. The only other way is to manually tapping on each individual image on the iPad, no fun with large amounts.

In fact, the stock Photo app on the iPad truly sucks, and doesn't integrate at all with the Apple/Aperture/iCloud ecosystem.

If the author (I presume it's DED but the site displays the narcissistic owners' name instead in threads, why is that?) wants to tap on the usefulness of stock iOS apps, he should also write about the Photo app.

And yeas, I remember 'whatever that is' very well, it was one ofhis funny moments; I picked it up as a condescending remark, but some posters on YouTube included it as a blooper.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.
Android seems to be an illiterate product, as they only have numbers to show for.
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Android seems to be an illiterate product, as they only have numbers to show for.
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post #124 of 132
Jon is brilliant. I look forward to a unified hardware and software look.

B.J.
blanejackson.com
post #125 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

 

The "grad student" remark was supposed to be funny. I withdraw it in the interest of not muddying the discussion.

 

My point was, and is, that even big, respected organizations sometimes get basic, fundamental stuff wrong, because even big, respected organizations are run by people and people are fallible. My providing a link that rebuts your link would be pointless, because my position is that it doesn't matter whether "Expert A" says it *is* a sarcastic inversion while "Expert  B" says it is not. Either expert could be wrong. Want proof? Watch the news on TV. Big, respected organizations sometimes get important details wrong. Read court documents. No better example of a system designed to wring out mistakes, yet they happen ALL THE TIME. How about textbooks? Do I need to go on? I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm just saying that just because dictionary.com gives a phrase a label, it doesn't mean they're right.

 

I'm not trying to arrogantly put myself above so-called experts. I am and always have been an utter moron. That's why I'm so sure they're mistaken -- the test is so simple that even a doofus like me can get through it: apply the definition to the phrase and see if it fits, right? In the case of "I could care less" it just doesn't. You don't have to take my word for it or that of any third-party expert because you can do it yourself. The phrase doesn't fit the model of deliberately saying the opposite of what you mean to make a point about the actual intent. Even the author at dictionary.com failed to explain the logic in the claim, even though (s)he made a point of explaining how it applies to the other examples (s)he offered.

 
Besides, maybe I'm misreading what the dictionary.com author wrote, but to me it read kinda like, "I dunno, people in the States started saying it this way and no one is really sure why. Sarcastic inversion maybe?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. I'm not anonymous, I've said before that my name is Lorin and that I'm an audio engineer in Vancouver. Beyond that, my employer expects me to maintain an appropriate level of discretion. If you actually care to know more you can PM me, but you really needn't bother because (see next point)

 

2. I make no claim of special expertise. In fact, I claim that none is required.

 

3. I don't know how to be any MORE logical than to simply apply the definition the author supplied and see if it applies to the phrase in question.

 

4. Since a fundamental tenet of my argument is that so-called "experts" can be mistaken, it would be a contradiction of request 3 ("logical" argument) for me to provide citations supporting my position. But if it makes you feel better, here, try this: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ico1.htm

 

To me it looks like our "expert" at dictionary.com just plagiarized bits and pieces of this document to make a quick point, but failed to grasp the broader intent.

 

In the linked article the author does give a nod to the argument that it's a sarcastic inversion, but suggests that he, too, thinks that's an academically interesting but ultimately flawed explanation, suggesting instead that it's really just the result of people being basically stupid.

Ah, there you go again: you think the "expert" at dictionary.com plagiarized. As though the reverse could not have happened. (Hint: Only one of the two lists the date of the posting). And you think it's all about "...people being basically stupid." Yet, you say you are not "arrogant."

 

Actually, I could/couldn't care less about dictionary.com per se (since I have nothing whatsoever to do with them), but I am just calling you out on your bombast.

 

More pertinently, I find your interpretation of what your linked "expert" says to be problematic -- for your argument. He seems to directly contradict your claim that it's not a sarcastic inversion. Here's what he says, fully in context: "In these cases people have tried to apply logic, and it has failed them. Attempts to be logical about I could care less also fail. Taken literally, if one could care less, then one must care at least a little, which is obviously the opposite of what is meant. It is so clearly logical nonsense that to condemn it for being so (as some commentators have done) misses the point. The intent is obviously sarcastic — the speaker is really saying, “As if there was something in the world that I care less about”."

 

Got it?

 

Looks like you have a tendency to just selectively interpret things to your liking, and when called out, start calling people "stupid" and "plagiarists." Get real.

post #126 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

- I use the podcast app everyday. I think the tape reel is charming, and takes nothing away from functionality. The app is fully featured, intuitive to use, works well, and looks great. I use it for all my podcast needs. How the **** is it a complete disaster?

Consider yourself lucky then because the rest of us are having all kinds of issues with lagging and crashing.  And it's not just a minority of people here in these forums.  Look at the reviews in the App store, it easily has the lowest rating of all Apple designed apps, 1.5 stars with just over 7,000 reviews.  The current version has been out since September 21, and I believe the original version was released early summer.  How long does it take to make it even a little bit better?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw View Post

 

Also, the UI for many players (whether for podcasts, video or music) is often cramped. How about using that big screen a little more effectively? Why must I laser in on the play/pause button? I'm constantly hitting the wrong buttons or concentrating like a ninja to make sure I don't hit the wrong buttons.

 

 

I'll second this poster's desire to get rid of the stoplight window controls. No one intuitively understands what they do. I can never predict what the hell the green button is going to do from app to app. I think Apple could change this for new users so it's more obvious. And while they're at it, put all the window control buttons together. I probably mouse 67K miles per year using my 27" iMac. This can be reduced by grouping buttons intelligently.

A-MEN!  I though the iTunes app was bad.  The virtual buttons there are ginormous in comparison.  Why does the FF, Play, and RW have to be practically on top of one another?  Does no one at Apple use these apps?

 

Similar to the Podcast app buttons, why did they feel the need to make the stoplight buttons even SMALLER in Lion?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Podcasts is the worst app Apple has released in years. I hope Jony tells 2 guys to "redesign that slow, superfluous heap of crap". Heck, they could have bought Instacast for 500K, gave it a spit shine, called it Podcasts, and it would have been 50 times better, with far less work.
And when I say Notes and iCloud have serious issues, I mean in terms of the two syncing quickly and automatically together. Not to mention iMessage, which hasn't worked as advertised, for me, for at least 3 months.

Start from scratch if you have to.  Start with a flip'n B&W app that syncs and plays podcasts.  Once it can do that, allow the designer(s) to add 4 colors (max) to the UI before it goes in to the App store.  ;-)

Just say no to MacMall.  They don't honor their promotions and won't respond to customer inquiries.  There are better retailers out there.
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Just say no to MacMall.  They don't honor their promotions and won't respond to customer inquiries.  There are better retailers out there.
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post #127 of 132
bugsnw View Post

I'll second this poster's desire to get rid of the stoplight window controls. No one intuitively understands what they do. I can never predict what the hell the green button is going to do from app to app. I think Apple could change this for new users so it's more obvious. And while they're at it, put all the window control buttons together. I probably mouse 67K miles per year using my 27" iMac. This can be reduced by grouping buttons intelligently.

I recommend keyboard commands. Generally, Cmd-M minimizes to Dock and Cmd-H hides. Hide is my personal preference, and Adobe finally respects it in CS6.

Consistent green button behavior is up to the individual developer. Apple apps all seem to use it logically, except iTunes 4-10. iTunes 11 has a dedicated mini-player button, so no more preferential and modifier-key-specific green button behavior.

 

v5v View Post

I'm not even sure why we have the yellow button. Do we really need both "Hide App" and "Minimize to Dock" controls? Do people minimize some windows to the dock while leaving others from the same app open?

Yes and yes. It's helpful for complex workflows on smaller screens. On research papers, for instance, I can Cmd-tab between Safari and Textedit without bringing all my (minimized) text windows in front of Safari. Other apps can be hidden completely, for a cleaner visual workspace at any given moment.

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post #128 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Ah, there you go again: you think the "expert" at dictionary.com plagiarized. As though the reverse could not have happened.

 

Fair point. I went the way I did only because one was fleshed out and comprehensive while the other seemed like a Readers Digest Condensed version. I could be wrong.

 

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

More pertinently, I find your interpretation of what your linked "expert" says to be problematic

 

Yeah, after re-reading it in the light of day I see what you mean. I thought the author was simply including the argument of sarcastic inversion for the sake of completeness but then poo-pooing the notion. I see now that (s)he actually supports that conclusion.

 

The reason for this author saying it's sarcastic inversion still strikes me as kind of weak -- saying the comment taken literally is nonsense so it's "obviously" sarcasm. One *could* just as easily conclude that it's an accidental bastardization.

 

I did say, and do believe, that just because the majority believe something, and any number of "experts" say it is so, does not mean it's true. I will concede, though, that you are correct that the commonly accepted explanation for that particular illogical phrase is sarcastic inversion. I still think it fails the test, but that might just be because, as I've indicated before, I'm just not that bright.

 

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Looks like you have a tendency to just selectively interpret things to your liking, and when called out, start calling people "stupid" and "plagiarists." Get real.

 

YOU'RE a stupid plagiarist, so THERE!  Naa naa!

 

But seriously, some of the language I use is intended just to add colour. You nailed it with "bombast" (good word!). Saying that "people tend to repeat common phrases without really thinking about their origins or literal meanings because the *intended* meaning is well understood, but in doing so may unintentionally and possibly erroneously portray an air of linguistic inferiority or ignorance" takes longer to write and is not as much fun as just saying "people are stupid." 1smile.gif

 

post #129 of 132
I have watched for years Apple's flirtation with bringing its GUI in line with its hardware but in my opinion the two never quite got there. The sometimes too "homy" icons are great for beginners if there is such a thing today with graphic user interfaces on just about everything including children's toys. I'm not so sure we need cuddly icons going ahead and J I could give Mac OS X a GUI fitting of the coming decade.
post #130 of 132

baring?

post #131 of 132

Jony Ivy is just a phenomenal designer and inspirational leader who will do a tremendous job as head of ios operations. His designs have inspired billions of people around the universe and I cant wait to see what he has in store for ios 7. Honestly I'm not a big fan of radical change so hopefully ios still has the same functionality maybe adding a few more features but doesn't distract from what ios is all about, which is about the user experience. It's about fluidity and smoothness and not about adding widgets, and live wallpapers which just causes lag and confusion. I think if Ivy does make changes maybe he tries out different designs in certain apps but doesnt radically change the layout of the home screens. 

post #132 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by quest01 View Post

Jony Ivy is just a phenomenal designer and inspirational leader who will do a tremendous job as head of ios operations. His designs have inspired billions of people around the universe and I cant wait to see what he has in store for ios 7. Honestly I'm not a big fan of radical change so hopefully ios still has the same functionality maybe adding a few more features but doesn't distract from what ios is all about, which is about the user experience. It's about fluidity and smoothness and not about adding widgets, and live wallpapers which just causes lag and confusion. I think if Ivy does make changes maybe he tries out different designs in certain apps but doesnt radically change the layout of the home screens. 


Me too! I believe there's a reason why Steve Jobs appointed him to be the head designer & the power to veto anyone's decision in the company when it comes to design...even Steve Jobs himself has to listen to him back then!

15" MBP 2009, 2.4 Ghz, 8 GB RAM, 250 GB HDD ; iPhone 5 64 GB Black ; 13" MBA 2012, 1.7 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, 128 SSD

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15" MBP 2009, 2.4 Ghz, 8 GB RAM, 250 GB HDD ; iPhone 5 64 GB Black ; 13" MBA 2012, 1.7 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, 128 SSD

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