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Jony Ive expected to replace iOS, OS X textures with clean edges & flat surfaces - Page 5

post #161 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post

It doesn't mean a thing.
Who cares about the weight of a desktop computer?
The appearance from the front is almost unchanged. Size change is only in the profile, which is actually slim only on the edge. Total space occupied is almost the same.
??? Highly what?????
Argument value : 0

I see what you mean, and this probably won't mean anything to you either, but the first principle in tactile design is to use no more material or take up more space than necessary, and to look for a pleasing shape within that rule.

We're used to thinking of an object's "footprint" in relation to its surroundings. Ive is thinking of the computer's "eyeprint," or its "spaceprint." Is this part of its function? To take up minimal space? I think so, but I admit it's a stretch. I guess if you diagree, you get a Mac Mini or a Pro.

Order your ram for the iMac accordingly, in other words. And assume that Apple is making the machine so failure-proof that it won't have be opened up. Function still has to rule over form.
post #162 of 188

Jony Ive takes this task in a moment where computer design is in crisis: After the development and commercial success of "mobile toys" from several vendors, all computer operating systems have tried to get inspired by the success from tablets/phones and put such inspiration into conventional computers. However, the result hasn't been satisfactory at all, because they've just tried to "copy" the tablet/phone UI paradigm into a conventional computer, and this, of course, cannot work until conventional computers have touchscreens, and even if they had touchscreens, the tablet/phone paradigm doesn't necessarily fit into the workflow of a desktop computer.

 

As a result, all major operating systems are in crisis until they find how to overcome the tablet/phone fashion in a proper way:

 

Windows 8 tried to get the tablet-feeling. Failed, mainly because a PC is not a tablet.

Linux, with GNOME shell and Unity, also tried it. Failed, for the same reason (a PC is not a tablet).

Apple tried it with Lion. Failed for the same reason (they slightly fixed the bad step in Mountain Lion, but it's not satisfactory yet).

 

So, Jony Ive takes the role in a time like this. A really interesting time, because it's the right time for innovation in the desktop, after this tablet/phone UI copy failure.

 

Good luck! (you'll need it, Jony)

post #163 of 188

Agreed. I think some of the design cues make more sense with the Retina displays. It seems a waste of the display to me to not incorporate some world realism within iOS as we interact with it.

post #164 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I believe that HI will be reporting up to Ive. That's the whole point. I suspect that Ive and his team will have the say on UI/HI/design issues. Federighi will be about software design, development and implementation. Of course they will need to work closely as I'm sure Ive's team has done in the past with hardware engineering and manufacturing.
Wall Street Journal says Greg Christie, VP of Human Interface will report to Federighi. Not sure how they know that, Interesting note, on the majority of Forstall's patents (issued or pending) Christie is also listed. Wonder how big of a supporter he is of the current design language and how open he is to changes. Assuming he stays on. From what I've read he's a long time Apple employee (worked on Newton).
post #165 of 188
Interesting...

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-11-01/apple-s-minimalist-ive-assumes-jobs-s-role-setting-design-vision
Quote:
As Jony Ive worked on early iPhone designs before and since its 2007 introduction, he regularly held meetings in his design studio to get input from top Apple Inc. (AAPL) executives -- except one: Scott Forstall.

Even as Forstall oversaw the group responsible for the software that would run the iPhone, he didn’t participate in the meetings, according to people with knowledge of the matter who requested anonymity because the meetings were private. Ive and Forstall were rarely in the same room, the people said.
post #166 of 188
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69ergoo View Post

If Apple makes the UI and the shape of app icons look flat and generic, Apple will lose big chunk of fanbase, including myself. Don't even think of getting rid of bookshelf in the iBooks app and paper shredder in the Passbook app, if you do, I am switching to Win 8. I promise.

You're pretty flighty,if that's all it takes, aren't you?
post #167 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

I believe Jobs was less and less involved in the graphic design decisions the last few years. The reason I say this is because if you look at his design aesthetic from the early days of the Macintosh, it was much more understated, and much more elegant. I feel that especially with iTunes 10, QuickTime X, and others, they really got away from good design principles, in both usability and attractiveness.

My feeling is that as time went along (maybe as Jobs got sicker), he was so into making the big things (iPhone, iPad, TV, etc), which were incredibly large undertakings, that he didn't oversee the little design elements of iTunes, QuickTime X, etc. so much, and let the engineers (Forstall) make those decisions. Just my opinion, but there was a marked movement away from good, clean design. (And I don't consider Aqua to be that bad - sort of an experiment that they toned down little by little).

There's also been a move away from usability, like hiding scroll bars (and making them too narrow), putting in "pretty" elements that require more clicking to use, etc. I'm guessing Jobs wasn't spending very much time examining the software design details and using the software. Again, just my opinion.

The worst thing is the unfinished products Apple has released, going back to the new iMovie and continuing through QuickTime X, Final Cut X, Siri, maps, etc.

We don't know that. People change over the years, and taste is part of that. The idea as to what is best changes as well. It's been said that SJ liked the look of leather, wood and stone in design, so it's hard to say what he approved of or not. But it should be pretty clear that it would have just taken a minute of his day to look at a design. To think that he couldn't have had input on any of this is hard to believe. If anything, he might have spent more time on it as the end became closer.

Look at what he said about his yaht. He worked on it even though he knew he wouldn't see it completed, because he felt it would allow him to think he would be alive longer. He was very dedicated to Apple. I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't take the few minutes to look over software design, and make a decision once a week or so.
post #168 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw View Post

Curious... Why do so many books align the text so it nearly disappears into the crack? We are left bending the book and squashing it flat until we finally break the all-to-flimsy spine.
When I'm king, the text will be rescued from the crack.

It doesn't happen with hardcover. But paperbacks are required to be cheaper, and small enough to fit into the average pocket, so size is an issue. People expect hardcover to be of good design, but not so much with a paperback. But look at magazines. Most are designed well, though, as usual with most things, not all. Never take the worst as an example, take the best.
post #169 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

There are places where it has gone too far the other way though - the coloured icons for shortcuts weren't distracting and actually made helpful associations but are now all grey.

Fully agree; iTunes coloured icons are sorely missed by me, and I'm reluctant to update Aperture - still running 3.2.3 in spite 3.4.2 being out today.
post #170 of 188

The capabilities of display technologies makes a huge difference in how you design the software to look as well. Again, it is a waste of a retina display to make everything monotone. The display is capable to deliver vibrant picture window colors so why not capitalize on that feature and make things pop a bit?

post #171 of 188
I like some of it, but not at the cost of functionality.

For example the podcast player on iphone5 is less functional. The reel to reel graphics take up space, when there isn't enough space to show the full text of the podcast title which are often very long.

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/technology/technology/2012/11/121101_TECH_nprMostEmailed.jpg.CROP.article250-medium.jpg

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post #172 of 188
I am really looking forward to what Ives has in store. I think he has much of the same "Jesus" power as Jobs did. I really hope we can see him present at a keynote.

Maybe now that Scott Forstall is gone he will be more willing to go to the keynote speeches. Plus he is more of a "hunk" than anyone else around.

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post #173 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowdog65 View Post

I like skeuomorphic design. I like the felt fabric texture used in game center image above.

 

I hate the flat featureless/textureless world of Win8, and would hate to see this end up dominating OSX/iOS.

 

Mac is supposed to be my escape if I get too annoyed with Windows changes when I go to buy my next computer.

 

Why not just have a couple of optional skins?

 

Who knows? Maybe Ive would rather offer people options than not... We'll see once his influence is directly evident on iOS and OSX. With his obsessive attention to detail, he may end up spending more time than Forstall in perfecting things!

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post #174 of 188

post #175 of 188
Originally Posted by bobborries View Post

 

There isn't anything operationally wrong with any of those designs. Notes in particular.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

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post #176 of 188

There is always something creepily old fashioned about American graphic design. Lets go European. I hate the green baize, mock wooden shelves and old fashioned, badly designed, mixed up type faces. Jonny Ives should rule, ok!

post #177 of 188

Three groups of iPad enthusiasts are pre-school children, first 3 graders and senior citizens.  I hope that Jony Ive's dumping of Scott Forstall's design work will not get rid of what the above groups found encouraging.

 

dons2

post #178 of 188
Originally Posted by greatrix View Post
Lets go European.

 

Sounds like you don't understand the point of skeuomorphism.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #179 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatrix 
Jonny Ives should rule, ok!

What about the iPhoto app, which Ive designed? He could have used an album layout like the Photos app but I think most would agree the iPhoto app looks nicer.



I don't see him banishing all physical designs in favour of abstract ones just for the sake of it. We might even see more of them. Maybe Forstall's the one with good taste and Ive was being held back from making absolutely horrendous choices. His repulsion may have been due to the current design being too subdued. The calendar will have scuff marks added, little pen scribbles and tiny pieces of binding glue.

There's also haptic feedback to think about. This tech was noted to arrive by the end of this year:



There's not much point in making tactile interaction with abstract objects as there's no familiarity. This can be used to let you feel the guitar strings in Garageband without looking at the screen or the pages of a book as you turn them.

Garageband is another app btw where I don't see the designs changing. They don't need to have representations of instruments at all - drums could be equally spaced squares to tap - but I highly doubt they'll change that.
post #180 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


What about the iPhoto app, which Ive designed? He could have used an album layout like the Photos app but I think most would agree the iPhoto app looks nicer.

 

Agreed! I really don't get the knee jerk hating on skeuomorphism.

post #181 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


What about the iPhoto app, which Ive designed? He could have used an album layout like the Photos app but I think most would agree the iPhoto app looks nicer.

I don't see him banishing all physical designs in favour of abstract ones just for the sake of it. We might even see more of them. Maybe Forstall's the one with good taste and Ive was being held back from making absolutely horrendous choices. His repulsion may have been due to the current design being too subdued. The calendar will have scuff marks added, little pen scribbles and tiny pieces of binding glue.
There's also haptic feedback to think about. This tech was noted to arrive by the end of this year:There's not much point in making tactile interaction with abstract objects as there's no familiarity. This can be used to let you feel the guitar strings in Garageband without looking at the screen or the pages of a book as you turn them.
Garageband is another app btw where I don't see the designs changing. They don't need to have representations of instruments at all - drums could be equally spaced squares to tap - but I highly doubt they'll change that.

are you sure he designed the iPhoto app?

post #182 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shameer Mulji View Post

are you sure he designed the iPhoto app?

Stage 1: denial.

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/sir-jonathan-ive-the-iman-cometh-7562170.html

"Q: How do you know you’ve succeeded?

A :It’s a very strange thing for a designer to say, but one of the things that really irritates me in products is when I’m aware of designers wagging their tails in my face.

Our goal is simple objects, objects that you can’t imagine any other way. Simplicity is not the absence of clutter. Get it right, and you become closer and more focused on the object. For instance, the iPhoto app we created for the new iPad, it completely consumes you and you forget you are using an iPad."

When he says 'we', he could just be referring to a team at Apple he wasn't involved with but he wouldn't say that about the app if he wasn't happy with it. He has at the very least used the app himself and been impressed by it but it sounds very much like he was involved with it.

That is not to say that he couldn't improve on the style but to assume that all of skeuomorphism is bad because it was associated with Fortsall who the media portrays as the villain is simplistic. People always have to put things into neat little boxes:

- Forstall, bad
- Ive, good
- Forstall, skeuomorphism
- Ive, minimalism
- Forstall, out
- skeuomorphism, out

It doesn't work like that. Garageband makes the iPad mimic the actual instruments. Ive will not remove the Piano keys nor the pictures of the drums. Under that assumption, there's no reason to assume he will remove the design traits of a calendar from the calendar app. At best, the unnecessary and tasteless designs will go.

His primary role is in hardware design though and as people have said, we can't assume that the transition will go smoothly. While the core design principles can stay the same, the way they are applied isn't.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-01/apple-s-minimalist-ive-assumes-jobs-s-role-setting-design-vision.html

"The differences between the two teams may present challenges for Ive as he tries to rally employees behind his design vision. Following the news of Forstall’s departure, some engineers are questioning Ive’s ability to lead software design, according to a former senior Apple developer who has been in touch with his colleagues.

This person compares the switch to Michael Jordan’s ill- fated move from professional basketball to minor-league baseball. While both sports require good eyesight and athletic ability, they entail starkly different skills."

If you have minimalist software and minimalist hardware, where is your focus? If Ive's idea is for the hardware to disappear and the software to consume your attention, they can't be designed the same way.

We can't judge his ability or inability until we see what changes come about and it won't be made clear that it was Ive's involvement that led to it. If we see an immediate change (like the TV UI), then we can be sure the transition had something to do with it. I think any improvements will be gradual.
post #183 of 188
Excellent post Marvin! Appreciate it, thanks.
post #184 of 188
My guess is when Ive used the term "we" he meant Apple in general and not his specific team. Though the notion that he's going to turn OS X and iOS into a Metro clone seems far fetched to me. I can't see him going too cold/minimalist. I mean iPhone 5 and iPad mini do have diamond cut chamfers after all. 1wink.gif
post #185 of 188

I think recent Apple HW design has been more hit and miss than in the past.

 

The new iPods with white plastic faces and pastel colors are downright ugly IMO.

 

The all black iPad Mini looks bland (though I do think the white one looks sharp).

 

Perhaps Ive unchecked is not the ideal state either. Jobs role in saying no to Ive sometimes seems like it will be unfilled.

post #186 of 188

Am I the only one who like to see a Black Taskbar??

 

 

And for the loved Game Center... :) I think one big problem here is that this Vegas look has the appealing that most people think that you find your Solitaere, Cards Games. And that is really unsatisfying for most Game Developers or young People who like the play Assassins Creed. There have to be a more modern, techie Look.

post #187 of 188

Instead of the interface changes, maybe they could update the calendar app in IOS to be able to create complex recurring events. This would be Very helpful.

post #188 of 188
Originally Posted by Mididoc098 View Post
…maybe they could update the calendar app in IOS to be able to create complex recurring events. This would be Very helpful.

 

Oh, yes. I'd absolutely love more advanced event controls. But not "instead of".

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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