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post #41 of 188

Groan.

 

New York Times discovers 'skeuomorphism', trots out some bogus experts!

post #42 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I think Forestall is (perhaps unconsciously) aping his mentor again by getting "fired" at the peak of his career.  Remember, Jobs was an abrasive asshole as a young man also.  Now Forestall will spend a few years in "exile" doing some other project that won't work out, only to return to Apple after he has matured as a saviour of sorts in 2022 after Tim dies and Schiller has retired to his lazy-boy recliner. 

Forstall (get the spelling right, if you really care) apes his mentor because he lacks originality, charisma and essential leadership qualities. Forstall is no Jobs and will not be coming back to Apple.

 

Craig Federighi has a lengthy history that goes back to NeXT Enterprise Objects. Fed seems far more well-rounded, emotionally balanced, and genuine than Forstall.

 

Did anyone else notice Bertrand Serlet, ex-Apple employee for over a year now, sitting in the front section with other Apple execs?

post #43 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by acslater017 View Post

I disagree. The fake leather look is completely ornamental and non-functional. Even if Forstall stayed on, it would probably be replaced with some other thing texture-of-the-moment in 2-3 years, since it has no basis in function. I think it's completely at odds with Apple's philosophy and aesthetic. An "Intel Inside" sticker wouldn't hurt anybody either, but it would be a travesty on an Apple machine. Ditto ripped paper, glossy wood, etc. They're distracting to the eye and only stick around until some designer falls in love with the next cool texture, like OS X's pinstripes, glossy plastic, milky white, and brushed metal over the years.

I don't agree. In moderation these things are fine. They should be subtle though.

While some people bemoan this in a computing environment, they still buy much of their other stuff in traditional materials and designs. The Tudor house (which is what I have) is still one of the more popular styles, and we rarely see Bauhaus homes, usually only pretty expensive ones where the owner is making a statement. And leather seats are still the preferred covering in furniture and cars.

I think there's a bit of hypocrisy working here. I don't see my computers as being anthing different from anything else I own.
post #44 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The Tudor house (which is what I have) is still one of the more popular styles.

The Threedoor house, which is what I have, is also quite popular.

post #45 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

The only one that really bothers me is Contacts as I feel that the book metaphor (especially in OS-X), really gets in the way and actually detracts from the application.  

They need to make up their mind what it is to be called, especially since it syncs with the other "Contacts". Might as well name it Contacts instead of Address Book.

 

Edit: I see they already did that in ML I'm on Lion still at the office. Is it just as ugly in ML?

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post #46 of 188

I just want to hear Ive say that Windows Phone is absolutely the worst UI he has ever seen. That would be reassuring.

post #47 of 188

I've always liked a bit of texture. 

post #48 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

The Threedoor house, which is what I have, is also quite popular.

I'm not sure what style that is. I tried looking it up but didn't find anything definite. Do you have an example?
post #49 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983 View Post

Good, the sooner the better. iOS is looking dated, especially next to Microsoft's metro/tile interface. 

 

It's best to let go of the whole MS tile interface idea. Metro is junk. It really does look like the interface was inspired by MS' worry about violating existing patents. Their entire mobile platform is in the toilet. 

 

iOS rates highest in customer satisfaction. All the devices it runs on have ruled customer satisfaction since their inception. ALL OF THEM. Not some, but ALL. 

 

iOS is the most viable mobile OS out there. It provides the best user experience. That's not opinion. It's fact. 

post #50 of 188

I think people too often lump a bunch of extra nonsense into the (overused) concept of skeuomorphism.  For example, people if you compromise the functionality of an app by slavishly mimicing it's real life counterpart (an extreme example would be if the Phone app implemented a rotory dial), then that's (bad) skeuomorphism.  Adding some innocuous non-functional design elements (e.g., the much-discussed stitched leather) is not.  The app was going to have a background color/border, so adding stitching is a harmless, whimsical touch that makes Apple Apple.  Like any design choice, some people will like them, others won't.  But that's not skeuomorphism; it's just design.

 

For example, the login screen for the Mac OS is beautiful in my opinion.  There's an understated cloth texture with subtle lighting.  By contrast, for years the Windows alternative was a blocky/bit-mappy Windows logo.  I'm pretty sure Ives would say the Apple way is better and would not invoke the term skeuomorphism as an argument to replace the opening background with some boring shade.

post #51 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by netrox View Post

Yes! I am glad to see them go away. 

 

Some skeuomorphic designs make perfect sense but it's getting a bit carried away. 

 

This.

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post #52 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

"Flat" doesn't sound promising.

 

Why?

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post #53 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


I'm not sure what style that is. I tried looking it up but didn't find anything definite. Do you have an example?

three-door compared to two-door/tudor.  har har.

post #54 of 188

When I pressed the Software Update button on my iphone 4 (iOS 6 to iOS 6.0.1 update) the gears in the Software Update windows started turning as the Software Update started downloading.  Some more animated icons would be cool. That's eye candy I can deal with.  Subtle, yet informative.  Gears moving, software's updating.  

post #55 of 188
I like the fabric background on the login screen. I think Ive knows that metal and fabric can be bonded together, Fashion does it all the time with shoes and bags, albeit the metal elements are often precious metals and complement the design as it's primarily a fabric based industry/market, so, the other way around then for Ive as Fabric can be used to complement the design nicely.

I am a proponent of skeuomorphic-ism and have advocated a vector based OS UI (which would be achieved easier if everything were 'flattened') and then it would be easier to allow users to have what they felt comfortable with.

I'd like to see the option to slide a theme over the UI as one would pass a sheet of silk over an object with many corners and edges to coat it as it were, this would be the best of both worlds - customisation, but at no great cost as everything would be vector and therefore mathematical.
post #56 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I believe dropping ALL the skeuomorphic designs would be a mistake.

 

Agreed.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

While it can certainly be overdone, I don't think that the current iOS or Mac OS X is anywhere near overdoing it.

 

Disagreed.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

People complain about the fake leather in the calendar. Just what harm does it do? Absolutely none.

 

Untrue. By going down this route, it mentally (and design-wise) starts to constrain the UI from possible breakthrough innovations.

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post #57 of 188

Hate, hate, hate skeuomorphism. Especially that dreadful GameCentre. It is naff.

post #58 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

Weight.
Size.
Highly valuable functions.
Next.

 

Plus...I'm curious how many customers actually upgrade memory after purchase. I'd guess it is single digit %.

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post #59 of 188
I loathe GameCenter and Find My Friends.

Some skeumorphism is OK, but those interfaces are so out of band that it is annoying.

Skeumorphism needs to make sense. It shouldn't be there just because.

Why the hell does Find my Friends need to be bound in leather? Are your friends located in the Necronomicon? GPS and location tracking are a *new* thing, there is no need to hide the modern aspect of the functionality.

Game center at least relates to gaming in some fashion (although I contend that perhaps a board game look would fit better than a casino look).

And of course Ive won't be personally designing UI. However he does set design guidelines and expectations, and he will have Veto capability.
post #60 of 188

Don't confuse metaphors with skeuomorphs. Software graphic metaphors such as Desktop, Folder, Spinning Watch and Trashcan are what made Macintosh "the computer for the rest of us" by associating familiar visual cues with similar virtual concepts. The Trashcan icon per se is not skeuomorphic, but in OSX its realistic rendering is a skeuomorphic treatment.

 

The skeuomorphic orgy of Game Center has its roots in Job's original vision for a computing environment that was intuitive for ordinary people that had never used a computer. Skeuomorphism is essential for modern gaming but since the attractiveness of real world materials and textures is so subjective, Apple would be smart to minimize skeuomorphism in most of its software interfaces. After all, millions of people world-wide are looking at these screens; there's no way everyone finds stitched leather or brushed metal attractive. Even so, humans generally are attracted to patterns, textures and pleasing color combinations. The great designers at Apple are masters at creating beautiful, subtle textures and shadings that have much more universal appeal than explicitly realistic renderings. Maybe now with Scott Forstall no longer pushing for hokey torn paper edges and wooden elements we'll see more refinement and subtlety. Flat, un-appealing surfaces and edges are extremely unlikely.

 

Regarding the use of metaphors; perhaps these can be more subtle too. Presumably the whole world is now comfortable with virtual environments and "intuitiveness" can be re-imagined. Now that Scott Forstall is gone and this internal conflict is being aired I can see how the original brilliance of metaphors devolved into a mandate that became a major limiting factor in the ongoing development of the Apple ecosystem.

 

Those pictures of Jony Ive's house were most likely the photos used in realtor listings; in other words, they reflect the previous owners' taste. It wouldn't surprise me a bit to see some fabulous architectural spreads at some point when he gets interiors that suit him.

post #61 of 188

There is much needless handwringing and celebration here. The confusion comes from the uninformed throwing around of terms like skeuomorphism, minimalism, flat, etc. Even the article points to the trash icon as skeuomorphic, which it really isn't. It's a very detailed but it's an icon. To really understand all this you would need a lot of experience with design, HCI, semiotics, visual art, and philosophy, which few of us have. Suffice to say, the real problem with SF was that he didn't get all of this, he didn't know he didn't get it, and he couldn't work with people who got it better than he did. As a result, among other things, incoherence and confusion was creeping into the user interface of OS X and iOS. I think under JI there will be a better environment to return to greater clarity and coherence. This doesn't mean icons, whimsy, playfulness, and beauty will disappear. It means function, clarity, consistency, and usability will be the foundational priority. Beauty, simplicity, fun, whimsy, and playfulness can't be forced. They will arise naturally from that consistent foundation, as is appropriate to the particular case. This is the essence of design.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Software designed to look like real-life textures, such as linen or felt, is expected to become a thing of the past at Apple now that designer Jony Ive has taken over the user interfaces of iOS and OS X.


Scott Forstall was previously in charge of iOS software, but his departure from the company was announced this week, while Ive will serve as head of Apple's Human Interface decision making. Forstall, along with late Apple co-founder Steve Jobs, was a strong advocate for skeuomorphism, which is a type of design that replicates real-world objects digitally.


But Ive is said to loathe skeuomorphist designs, which means Apple's software is expected to have a significantly different look and feel in the future.
"You can be sure that the next generation of iOS and OS X will have Jony's industrial design aesthetic all over them," one unnamed Apple designer told The New York Times. "Clean edges, flat surfaces will likely replace the textures that are all over the place right now."

 
. . . 

Some skeuomorphic designs are helpful to users, like the trash bin utilized in OS X for deleting files.
post #62 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post

three-door compared to two-door/tudor.  har har.

You're a riot.
post #63 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodshotrollin'red View Post

Hate, hate, hate skeuomorphism. Especially that dreadful GameCentre. It is naff.

Lie down on the couch and tell us how you feel. I'll get my pencil and pad.
post #64 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by valkraider View Post

I loathe GameCenter and Find My Friends.
Some skeumorphism is OK, but those interfaces are so out of band that it is annoying.
Skeumorphism needs to make sense. It shouldn't be there just because.
Why the hell does Find my Friends need to be bound in leather? Are your friends located in the Necronomicon? GPS and location tracking are a *new* thing, there is no need to hide the modern aspect of the functionality.
Game center at least relates to gaming in some fashion (although I contend that perhaps a board game look would fit better than a casino look).
And of course Ive won't be personally designing UI. However he does set design guidelines and expectations, and he will have Veto capability.

We don't know exactly what he will be doing. I would be surprised, however, if he doesn't make some changes himself, and direct others.
post #65 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodshotrollin'red View Post

Hate, hate, hate skeuomorphism. Especially that dreadful GameCentre. It is naff.

I doubt that people who use GameCenter a lot really care all that much.
post #66 of 188

Thank God.

 

 

I doubt that they'll completely eliminate them.  Simply offering a choice of skeumorphic or clean presentation would go far.

post #67 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixPenceRicher View Post

Simply offering a choice of skeumorphic or clean presentation would go far.

 

Don't hold your breath waiting for that.

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post #68 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

I never heard a word out of Forstall's mouth that didn't sound like it originated from Jobs. When one is going through what Jobs went through, it helps to have an energetic surrogate, but now that Jobs is gone...


Sounds like you talk to Scott often?

post #69 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixPenceRicher View Post

Thank God.

 

 

I doubt that they'll completely eliminate them.  Simply offering a choice of skeumorphic or clean presentation would go far.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Don't hold your breath waiting for that.

Indeed, as if Apple makes a habit of allowing us to customize.

 

Having said that, the Game Center cannot just be all silver and no motif. Perhaps they'd allow some "skin", which is the extent of iOS freedom you get anyway.

post #70 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

This isn't even in the "rumour" category. This is merely repeating the idle speculation of other bloggers.
Personally, I doubt that Ive will have much "hands on" with iOS design at all. Industrial and 3D design shares almost nothing with 2D and software design. Just because Ive can design an iPhone, doesn't mean he has any idea what to do when it comes to software.
I've said this before, but one only has to look at Ive's horrible taste in clothes and the intensely tacky house he recently bought to see that his skills are not as wide as some people believe.

And I've said this before: You, who wanted to see a plastic back on the iPad mini, have demonstrated that you have the worst taste of anyone around here.

Let's see the inside of your "house" Gazoobee. Then again, let's not . . .

But stop talking shit about Ive's taste. Your trollish "colours" are showing.
post #71 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

There is much needless handwringing and celebration here. The confusion comes from the uninformed throwing around of terms like skeuomorphism, minimalism, flat, etc. Even the article points to the trash icon as skeuomorphic, which it really isn't. It's a very detailed but it's an icon. To really understand all this you would need a lot of experience with design, HCI, semiotics, visual art, and philosophy, which few of us have. Suffice to say, the real problem with SF was that he didn't get all of this, he didn't know he didn't get it, and he couldn't work with people who got it better than he did. As a result, among other things, incoherence and confusion was creeping into the user interface of OS X and iOS. I think under JI there will be a better environment to return to greater clarity and coherence. This doesn't mean icons, whimsy, playfulness, and beauty will disappear. It means function, clarity, consistency, and usability will be the foundational priority. Beauty, simplicity, fun, whimsy, and playfulness can't be forced. They will arise naturally from that consistent foundation, as is appropriate to the particular case. This is the essence of design.

Quote:

I wouldn't say that SJ didn't understand it. Without knowing him, and speaking to him about it, you can only guess at his understanding and aims.

But moving people off what they know, and moving them into something entirely different is difficult. I know that from my own experiences in designing equipment. Even with engineers, it's tough. When HP came out with the first digital scopes, one of which I bought, they used new concepts in the interface. Gone were all the old knobs, and in we're buttons, and on screen controls that were use centric. This was so difficult for engineers to wrap themselves around, that HP went partially back to the older interface for several years.

You need to bring people around a bit at a time (no pun intended!). They have to feel comfortable. Look at all the critics of Win 8. This may be too much at once. So skeuomorphism is there to help that transition. Over time, it can be dispensed with.

Most people here are too young to remember anything from before OS X, in early 2001. Before that, there were many programs, free, shareware, and commercial, that existed for the sole purpose of allowing people to take Apple's UI and distort it to unrecognizability (not a real word, I know).

We had windows that looked like various woods, stone and even creeping vines. Hi tech looks and low tech looks, fantasy and notwhat. Some made it almost impossible to even make sense of what the screen looked like, but it was considered to be an advantage of Apple's system software, as opposed to that of Microsoft, which allowed very little change. That came to a halt with OS X, to many complaints among users and developers.

Now, we're arguing about minor infractions of some rigid thinking that none of this is correct. Well, just look at the Modern UI of Win 8 to see an extreme of this thinking. Do we want to go there? I hope not!
post #72 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

But Ive is said to loathe skeuomorphist designs, which means Apple's software is expected to have a significantly different look and feel in the future.

 

YAY!!!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

In particular, the felt, casino-style table top in Game Center, and the "Corinthian leather" that appears in the Find My Friends and Calendar applications.
 

 

The faux-felt of Game Center doesn't bother me.  The leather texture in Find My Friends and Calendar doesn't bother me either.  Those are simply background images that can be easily swapped out for something cleaner.

 

The skeuomorphic graphics that really bother me are the ones that use up screen space for no reason.  Like the fake torn paper edges in Notes (in iOS and OS X.)  Anything that wastes pixels on screen is bad IMHO.  Every pixel is important, especially on mobile device screens.  

 

Note: when I say "waste" I mean "using up screen space that could otherwise be used by more information."  So skeuomorphisms like the spinning reel-to-reel tape deck animation in Podcasts don't count as "waste."  Because there's not much to display while the podcast is playing anyway.  But burning up a few pixels' worth of space that could otherwise have been used to display an extra line of text (torn paper in Notes) does count as "waste."

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post #73 of 188

I like skeuomorphism in certain apps, it all depends.

 

I like how iBooks looks like a bookshelf with real books. If anything, they can make it even more realistic and 3D looking now, and take full advantage of retina displays which allows for greater details and texture. I don't want some flat grey background for iBooks. I also like how iBooks mimics a real book when turning the pages.

 

I also use a lot of music apps, and I like apps that mimic and look like real hardware, especially if somebody is used to the real hardware.

 

I don't like how gamecenter looks, but I don't really give a shit about gamecenter, since I don't use it anyway.

post #74 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


I doubt that people who use GameCenter a lot really care all that much.


Indeed. As it stands, when you are using GameCenter, you don't really see any "skeuomorphic" motifs (man, are people overusing this word or what). You see the pooltable-green background with the wood borders. But is it really a big deal cleaner to change it to another color or tone? I expect Ive's influence will be more meaningful, yet fundamental. He is not a frivolous man.

post #75 of 188
Current Apple products remind me of Frazier Cranes apartment.
Modern hard lines and materials on the outside, classic leather and cashmere on the inside.

I actually like it,( but then, I've always liked Frazier) 1wink.gif
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post #76 of 188

DO NOT CHANGE:

- Notes

- Game Center

- Passbook

- Reminders

- Compass

- Voice Memos

- iBooks

 

All these work fantastically by giving the app a distinct look and providing great visual feedback by replicating/mimicking real world items.

 

PLEASE CHANGE:

- Calendar

- Contacts

- Find My Friends

- Podcasts

 

These apps suffer from too much design that detracts from the user experience.  Contacts as a book is much more difficult to navigate.  What exactly is the leather interface of Find My Friends supposed to me mimicking?  The reel to reel look of the Podcasts app is a bit too cumbersome.  I think Calendar is the least offender here, but I really dislike the faux leather look for some reason.  Especially on the Mac it really bugs me.  The torn pages look is great though.

 

For OS X in general, I'd like to see a much more unified look.  Menu bars should generally look the same throughout the OS.  Please, no leather on the Mac.  The exception would be that I like when an app on iOS and OS X look similar.  So Notes and Reminders on the Mac shouldn't continue to be inspired by their iOS counterparts.

post #77 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansky View Post

If Jony Ive places functionality above all else, why is the new iMac so thin that the RAM is now non-upgradable? How is that a benefit to anyone (unless you spend your time gazing fondly at the new iMac's slim profile)?!

Non, really. But my bet is that the evidence shows that less than 1% ever upgrade Ram.

post #78 of 188

SF not SJ. It's apparent without even talking to him, that his approach is from an engineering (software) mindset, which is his strength (and therefor his weakness.)

 

The transition to new, simple, innovative is not hard for users. But is very difficult for designers to produce. This difficulty is one reason we see so few innovative products. It's hard. Its much easier to design "looking back" than it is "looking ahead." This is why products so often fall back to trite, "literal" design strategies.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


I wouldn't say that SJ didn't understand it. Without knowing him, and speaking to him about it, you can only guess at his understanding and aims.
But moving people off what they know, and moving them into something entirely different is difficult. I know that from my own experiences in designing equipment. Even with engineers, it's tough. When HP came out with the first digital scopes, one of which I bought, they used new concepts in the interface. Gone were all the old knobs, and in we're buttons, and on screen controls that were use centric. This was so difficult for engineers to wrap themselves around, that HP went partially back to the older interface for several years.
You need to bring people around a bit at a time (no pun intended!). They have to feel comfortable. Look at all the critics of Win 8. This may be too much at once. So skeuomorphism is there to help that transition. Over time, it can be dispensed with.
Most people here are too young to remember anything from before OS X, in early 2001. Before that, there were many programs, free, shareware, and commercial, that existed for the sole purpose of allowing people to take Apple's UI and distort it to unrecognizability (not a real word, I know).
We had windows that looked like various woods, stone and even creeping vines. Hi tech looks and low tech looks, fantasy and notwhat. Some made it almost impossible to even make sense of what the screen looked like, but it was considered to be an advantage of Apple's system software, as opposed to that of Microsoft, which allowed very little change. That came to a halt with OS X, to many complaints among users and developers.
Now, we're arguing about minor infractions of some rigid thinking that none of this is correct. Well, just look at the Modern UI of Win 8 to see an extreme of this thinking. Do we want to go there? I hope not!

Edited by DESuserIGN - 11/1/12 at 12:53pm
post #79 of 188
The leather and stitching in Calendar is not so bad to me, but the torn off paper look is just annoying as hell. I'm sorry, but I would have torn the little pieces off if it were a real calendar and I'm stuck looking at this regardless. I'm probably on the picky side, but the torn paper is the cheesiest part.

Also, the game table look in game center is also just tacky. If you are going to do a game table, at least make it a nice looking game table.
post #80 of 188
I think it's amusing that making the head of design of physical objects at apple also head of design of graphical objects generates such a negative response.

After all, he arrived at his minimalist design philosophy by consistently asking the question, what is necessary to most effectively fulfill the required function. If the shredder's function in Passbook is to signify that the information has been destroyed, I think that fits the minimalist bill. The Roulette/Card table/Pool/Casino appearance of Game Center is bold in the sense creating a metaphor to "gaming", but I don't know how well that works in its function to advertise the switchboard metaphor to different games

It'll be interesting to watch what'll happen!
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