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Jony Ive expected to replace iOS, OS X textures with clean edges & flat surfaces - Page 3

post #81 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I think Forestall is (perhaps unconsciously) aping his mentor again by getting "fired" at the peak of his career.  Remember, Jobs was an abrasive asshole as a young man also.  Now Forestall will spend a few years in "exile" doing some other project that won't work out, only to return to Apple after he has matured as a saviour of sorts in 2022 after Tim dies and Schiller has retired to his lazy-boy recliner.  

As for skeuomorphism, it gets a bad rap because most of the tech press is, well ... techies.  And they have no idea about design or the possible reasons for such skueomorphic designs.  True, they have gone a bit too far lately but many of Apple's designs in this category are not only successful and popular, they are necessary.  

Think about it.  If iBooks wasn't a book shelf but a simple list of titles for example, how does the average user tell the difference between a list of books on their device and a list of items in the store?  They *need* two separate metaphors there.  

It's also confusing enough for the average person to tell the difference between iTunes the store (on their device) and iTunes the player (on their device).  Apple is introducing a whole new group of people to computers for the first time with iOS.  People who didn't previously use them because they found the whole deal confusing.  Just because a bunch of techies don't like skeuomorphism, doesn't mean that HUGE numbers of average people aren't greatly assisted by the concept.  

Try showing Microsoft's "flat" "modern" Metro UI to a bunch of seniors and then come back and tell me how flatter is better and that skeuomorphism isn't needed.  Metro just a bunch of pretty squares to most non-computer savy folks and completely unusable.  

Now this I agree with. What are you, bipolar on an hourly basis?

The thing Ive brings to his industrial design above all other sensorial aspects is tactility. His stuff is meant to feel good in the hand, or to look like it wants to be touched, like the back of the recent iMacs. This is a very British thing, or more accurately maybe, a Celto-Germanic thing.

Jobs had it too, thus the BMW motorcycle (60s/70s vintage?) that he had enshrined at Apple as a design example. Those were very tactile machines, with their sculpted crankcases and rounded cylinder heads, glowing aliminum and I suppose magnesium.

Ive's Bently is a monument to tactility as is his house.

Skeuomorphic software motifs are intended to add tactility to the interface, along with visual interest. Right-brain guys like Ive and Jobs, don't know about Forstall, are highly tolerant of tactile eye-candy. Left-brain types find it distracting or even painful. Microsoft is dedicated to left-brainism, which is why they're struggling to find something appealing for their interface.

The myth that Ive is opposed to s'morphism (hate the word) is just that, myth, until proved otherwise—the work of one Telegraph journalist and a bunch of unnamed sources. I hope I'm not proved wrong about that, because I like the tactility myself.

Edit: corrected to Aston-Martin below. Don't know the tactility quotient of that car, haven't had the pleasure of examining one.
Edited by Flaneur - 11/1/12 at 1:09pm
post #82 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Right-brain guys like Ive and Jobs, don't know about Forstall, are highly tolerant of tactile eye-candy. Left-brain types find it distracting or even painful. Microsoft is dedicated to left-brainism, which is why they're struggling to find something appealing for their interface.
 

 

This is just so wrong (and presumptuous) on so many levels that I don't know yet where to begin to set you straight. Just so wrong.

post #83 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


Now this I agree with. What are you, bipolar on an hourly basis?
The thing Ive brings to his industrial design above all other sensorial aspects is tactility. His stuff is meant to feel good in the hand, or to look like it wants to be touched, like the back of the recent iMacs. This is a very British thing, or more accurately maybe, a Celto-Germanic thing.
Jobs had it too, thus the BMW motorcycle (60s/70s vintage?) that he had enshrined at Apple as a design example. Those were very tactile machines, with their sculpted crankcases and rounded cylinder heads, glowing aliminum and I suppose magnesium.
Ive's Bently is a monument to tactility as is his house. Skeuomorphic software motifs are intended to add tactility to the interface, along with visual interest.
Right-brain guys like Ive and Jobs, don't know about Forstall, are highly tolerant of tactile eye-candy. Left-brain types find it distracting or even painful. Microsoft is dedicated to left-brainism, which is why they're struggling to find something appealing for their interface.
The myth that Ive is opposed to s'morphism (hate the word) is just that, myth, until proved otherwise—the work of one Telegraph journalist and a bunch of unnamed sources. I hope I'm not proved wrong about that, because I like the tactility myself.

Yes. The idea that Ive will design flat, like Win 8 or typical google's skeletal functionalism, is silly. In addition to what you write I would add that Ive brings intelligence and thought. He drives an Aston Martin, apparently, which is a beautifully designed car. I think the present OSX gui is a bit of a mess and is in need of sorting out. Above all Ive will bring intelligence and a sophisticated aesthetic to the platform. To me, the skeuomorphistic designs that everyone hates are just self indulgent and 'dumb' for lack of a better word. The idea that objects on the screen should visually mimic their real life counterpart is nothing but a naive and 'cute' idea. 'Effort' has clearly gone into the creation of these designs, but not that much 'thought'. I rmeber when the present Trash can was introduced with OSX. I remember hating it. It has been improved and I am so used to it by now I don't see it. I just thought it was cheap and tacky. Not substantial. I look forward to see some changes.

post #84 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by apersona View Post

Regarding the use of metaphors; perhaps these can be more subtle too. Presumably the whole world is now comfortable with virtual environments and "intuitiveness" can be re-imagined.
Deemphasizing the desktop/office/file/folder metaphor where it's remained stubbornly, overly dominant can't happen soon enough for me. Some of the iOSification of OS X, for better and/or worse, seems like one way Apple's moving more in that direction.
post #85 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post

This is just so wrong (and presumptuous) on so many levels that I don't know yet where to begin to set you straight. Just so wrong.

No it isn't. And I could probably say a few more true things that would drive you crazy. But presumptuous, yes, I agree that it is. Correct, though.

I know, the left-brain, right-brain thing is out of fashion. You want to go back to anal-retentive vs. Bohemian?
post #86 of 188
I like ical leather and yellow notes.

I will be sad if EVERY art is removed from Os X and iOS.

gradient is UGLY , metro is boring !
post #87 of 188

 

1000

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post #88 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


No it isn't. And I could probably say a few more true things that would drive you crazy. But presumptuous, yes, I agree that it is. Correct, though.
I know, the left-brain, right-brain thing is out of fashion. You want to go back to anal-retentive vs. Bohemian?

 

Yes, you can fabricate things that would drive truly knowledgeable people crazy. But saying it is true does not make it so.


I challenge you to cite peer-reviewed studies demonstrating that majority of left-brained folks find eye-candy painful and that majority of right-brained people are more stimulated by it. In fact, I challenge you to define what a right-brained person is, without looking it up. If you cannot do so within today (which should be doable since you pretend to be so knowledgeable), then please do not post anything again.

 

Goodbye ;-)

post #89 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

"Flat" doesn't sound promising.

 

Yes it doesn't, but I believe he was using that word to make a point more than being 100% specific about what way things would actually change. I trust Ive's design sensibilities and sensitivities.

Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #90 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

 

Yes it doesn't, but I believe he was using that word to make a point more than being 100% specific about what way things would actually change. I trust Ive's design sensibilities and sensitivities.

Most of the time, I agree. But Ive and Jobs also gave us multiple generations of computer mice that were literally painful to use. Ergonomics is a key part of user experience. The hockey puck mouse and the might mouse were not particularly ergonomic.

post #91 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post

 

Yes, you can fabricate things that would drive truly knowledgeable people crazy. But saying it is true does not make it so.


I challenge you to cite peer-reviewed studies demonstrating that majority of left-brained folks find eye-candy painful and that majority of right-brained people are more stimulated by it. In fact, I challenge you to define what a right-brained person is, without looking it up. If you cannot do so within today (which should be doable since you pretend to be so knowledgeable), then please do not post anything again.

 

Goodbye ;-)

Bazinga!

 

But how will you know he is not looking it up?

post #92 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

I think Forestall is (perhaps unconsciously) aping his mentor again by getting "fired" at the peak of his career.  Remember, Jobs was an abrasive asshole as a young man also.  Now Forestall will spend a few years in "exile" doing some other project that won't work out, only to return to Apple after he has matured as a saviour of sorts in 2022 after Tim dies and Schiller has retired to his lazy-boy recliner.

 

Back in the real world, Forstall isn't Jobs.

Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #93 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

 

Yes it doesn't, but I believe he was using that word to make a point more than being 100% specific about what way things would actually change. I trust Ive's design sensibilities and sensitivities.

I definitely trust his hardware design instincts.  How well that translates into software UI design remains to be seen.  As much as I respect his work I'm cautiously optimistic.

post #94 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

"Flat" doesn't sound promising.

I suspect that folks thinking he's going to trash everything will be disappointed.

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post #95 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

If iBooks wasn't a book shelf but a simple list of titles for example, how does the average user tell the difference between a list of books on their device and a list of items in the store?

 

Chillax. Ive has never said anything, this is one person's opinion, who works at apple. Just because Ive 'is said' to not like skeuomorphism, doesn't mean he will think it a good idea to get rid of the iBook bookshelf. I just hope he has a couple of folks at Apple redo that lousy Podcasts app. It's the worst app Apple has released in years.

Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #96 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


I suspect that folks thinking he's going to trash everything will be disappointed.

Agree. We can only guess what he will do. But history suggests Ive is anything but a hasty, impulsive man. He can't even talk fast :)

post #97 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I believe dropping ALL the skeuomorphic designs would be a mistake. While it can certainly be overdone, I don't think that the current iOS or Mac OS X is anywhere near overdoing it.

I would say moving shadows to make the volume slider look like a real button instead of getting the bugs out of the Music app is overdoing it.

Same with the moving gears during the software update download when the progress bar is just fine

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post #98 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

That is the most egregious example!! It looks like a cheap Vegas casino playing table. Its absolutely garish and horrible.

You're just mad it doesn't come with waitresses that dress like hookers. Ya know, like in Vegas

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post #99 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

 

That is the most egregious example!! It looks like a cheap Vegas casino playing table. Its absolutely garish and horrible.

 

Agreed. It's even bad at being what it is.

Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #100 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansky View Post

If Jony Ive places functionality above all else, why is the new iMac so thin that the RAM is now non-upgradable? How is that a benefit to anyone (unless you spend your time gazing fondly at the new iMac's slim profile)?!

99% of folks using a 21.5 iMac will never need more than 8 gb of ram and the 27 inch is still upgradable

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post #101 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansky View Post

If Jony Ive places functionality above all else, why is the new iMac so thin that the RAM is now non-upgradable? How is that a benefit to anyone (unless you spend your time gazing fondly at the new iMac's slim profile)?!

 

It's thin because optical drives are dead and people want thinner, lighter hardware, even when it comes to desktop computers. The new iMac is cool. And cool is nice to look at, and nice to own and buy. How much RAM do you need? All computers are going this way, the iPad is setting the trend. Installing hardware yourself will be a thing of the past in all computers within 10 years.

Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #102 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983 View Post

Good, the sooner the better. iOS is looking dated, especially next to Microsoft's metro/tile interface.

 

I think iOS is better design than Metro. It's simpler, cleaner, more elegant, more intuitive, more calming and everyone can use it. That's good design.

 

Will it evolve? Of course, but it is very well designed.

Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #103 of 188

The true story of Scott's demise.

 

Forstall: Hey Jonny, do you know where I can get felt?

 

Ive: Not in this company.

post #104 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Agree. We can only guess what he will do. But history suggests Ive is anything but a hasty, impulsive man. He can't even talk fast 1smile.gif

Oh my lord yes. He pauses so long at times I can almost go take a piss and come back before he says the next word. Drives me batty.then he says al-you-mini-um and I forgive him. Lol

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post #105 of 188
Dropping skeuomorphic design raises some interesting challenges and opportunities. Skeuomorphism constrains functionality to the thing that is being emulated. Replacing leather with brushed stainless steel looks is easy but the real challenge will be to come up with new and useful functionality once the albatross of skeuomorphism has been buried. A non-skeuomorphic design aesthetic is like a blank page to the writer. It can be damn intimidating.
Let's see if Apple designers rise to the occasion and the opportunity.
post #106 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansky View Post

If Jony Ive places functionality above all else, why is the new iMac so thin that the RAM is now non-upgradable? How is that a benefit to anyone (unless you spend your time gazing fondly at the new iMac's slim profile)?!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

 

It's thin because optical drives are dead and people want thinner, lighter hardware, even when it comes to desktop computers. The new iMac is cool. And cool is nice to look at, and nice to own and buy. How much RAM do you need? All computers are going this way, the iPad is setting the trend. Installing hardware yourself will be a thing of the past in all computers within 10 years.

 

Somewhere, there is a video interview of Ive in which he describes how the iPhone should be all about the screen and how he wants to get rid of everything else. I believe he (and Jobs) has the same vision about the iMac. The iMac was destined to look like this latest version, from day one. 

post #107 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


Oh my lord yes. He pauses so long at times I can almost go take a piss and come back before he says the next word. Drives me batty.then he says al-you-mini-um and I forgive him. Lol

Does he say a-loo-min-ium? I myself can't help but go take a piss as he utters loo.

post #108 of 188

Can't wait to see what he and his team come up with. The Game center app I don't mind the texture-izing, however in OSX, the calendar and address book look is cheesy. Don't really need that eye candy. Keep the look consistent throughout the OS

post #109 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy View Post

The leather and stitching in Calendar is not so bad to me, but the torn off paper look is just annoying as hell. I'm sorry, but I would have torn the little pieces off if it were a real calendar and I'm stuck looking at this regardless. I'm probably on the picky side, but the torn paper is the cheesiest part.
And I'm probably at least as pickily annoyed by that as you. 1biggrin.gif
post #110 of 188
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post
I trust Ive's design sensibilities and sensitivities.

 

As do I.


Originally Posted by charlituna View Post
I suspect that folks thinking he's going to trash everything will be disappointed.

 

Agreed.


Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post
Does he say a-loo-min-ium? I myself can't help but go take a piss as he utters loo.

 

He does. Last time was in the… iPhone 5 video, I think.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #111 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post

Yes, you can fabricate things that would drive truly knowledgeable people crazy. But saying it is true does not make it so.


I challenge you to cite peer-reviewed studies demonstrating that majority of left-brained folks find eye-candy painful and that majority of right-brained people are more stimulated by it. In fact, I challenge you to define what a right-brained person is, without looking it up. If you cannot do so within today (which should be doable since you pretend to be so knowledgeable), then please do not post anything again.

Goodbye ;-)

I don't need no stinkin' studies, I and my peers have been reviewing this stuff for years! : )

Seriously, it's pop psychology shorthand used to describe what has become a serious cultural divide in computing, not just relevant to the subject of adding visual texture to software interfaces. It has to do with Apple's increasing success and the inability of other companies like Microsoft to design their way into any iconic territory whatsoever.

I'd love to go into it sometime, but I have to get to work like right now, and I'm pretty sure you aren't going to like what I say anyway so I foresee a long exchange. If we ever do get into it, I promise not to look a single thing up, except maybe the title of Ornstein's book about the origin of consciousness. Anyway, right brain = holistic, artistic, and above all, aware of the tactile dimension. Left brain = visual, linear, ordered by desire for control.
post #112 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 

Is there some reason the Game Center exists?
 

 

"Game Center" (if they keep that name) is the kind of thing that should not emulate real-world things. It's wholly a creation of networks and electronics. Just make it "invisible" to users so the games themselves take center stage.

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GOA

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GOA

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post #113 of 188

The pictures of Ive's new house are from the real estate listing so the "tacky" decor is the previous owners taste ... not his!

post #114 of 188

Maybe Apple should go in between texture and flat with every major release and add to the features count for that release.

post #115 of 188
I love all this projection of what people think Ive is going to do when in reality we have no idea what his plans are and when we'll start to see his influence in software. 1rolleyes.gif
post #116 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

 

It's thin because optical drives are dead and people want thinner, lighter hardware, even when it comes to desktop computers. The new iMac is cool. And cool is nice to look at, and nice to own and buy. How much RAM do you need? All computers are going this way, the iPad is setting the trend. Installing hardware yourself will be a thing of the past in all computers within 10 years.


Apple said 80 percent of their Mac sales were laptops, so maybe they don't even want desktop computers anymore. Maybe in 10 years, desktops will be a thing of the past.

post #117 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I love all this projection of what people think Ive is going to do when in reality we have no idea what his plans are and when we'll start to see his influence in software. 1rolleyes.gif

 

Quite true. Apple is the greatest guessing-game on Earth!

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #118 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


I don't need no stinkin' studies, I and my peers have been reviewing this stuff for years! : )
Seriously, it's pop psychology shorthand used to describe what has become a serious cultural divide in computing, not just relevant to the subject of adding visual texture to software interfaces. It has to do with Apple's increasing success and the inability of other companies like Microsoft to design their way into any iconic territory whatsoever.
I'd love to go into it sometime, but I have to get to work like right now, and I'm pretty sure you aren't going to like what I say anyway so I foresee a long exchange. If we ever do get into it, I promise not to look a single thing up, except maybe the title of Ornstein's book about the origin of consciousness. Anyway, right brain = holistic, artistic, and above all, aware of the tactile dimension. Left brain = visual, linear, ordered by desire for control.


First of all, if you have been reviewing "this stuff" for years, you should be able to drop citations without breaking a sweat.

 

Second, your definitions apply to everyone because nobody is strictly one way or the other. They also happen to be the type of vague definitions one finds on the internet, rather than scientific definitions. The amateurish tactic of name-dropping is so ... amateurish.

 

We won't be "going into it" because, frankly, you are a poseur and not particularly knowledgeable on this topic.

 

Goodbye.

post #119 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

"Flat" doesn't sound promising.

No, it doesn't.

I am thinking, for example, of the new iPhone keypad in iOS6...

I'm sure some like it fine, but to me it looked like a high school project or beta when I first saw it.

"Simplistic" doesn't always translate to "sophisticated",

and, for me anyway, a physical world look is always more welcome than a machine language look.

Just a personal preference.

post #120 of 188

All of Ive designed icons will have fake beard stubble on them. Take that faux leather!

We become what we behold. We shape our tools and then our tools shape us.- Marshall McLuhan

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