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Microsoft said to be testing its own smartphone design - Page 2

post #41 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


It's junk. It looks like junk and feels like it. 

Microsoft/Nokia keeps announcing new phones as part of a smartphone platform in which no one is really interested.

I own three iPhones, and am an Apple fan. With that said, I have actually used the Nokia Lumina (the metal one in blue) and it is not junk. It has a better build quality than Samsung, HTC, and Motorola top phones.

Part of Nokia's problem is Microsoft. Many of the relatively recent phones aren't even going to be upgradable to the new OS.
post #42 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

 I think they are referring to the fact that these are 'shipped' phones, which does not necessarily mean that they're all in end user hands.

A better measure of share is to look at the stats on popular websites. These are phones that are actually in use.
Alright, thanks, so it is this 'shipped' fallacy again... Meanwhile web traffic stats tells absolutely nothing about market share...

http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_browser-ww-monthly-201211-201211-bar

edit: better link, web 'usage' by mobile OS, http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_os-ww-monthly-201211-201211-bar
Edited by Sensi - 11/2/12 at 8:35am
post #43 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Microsoft makes hardware and has done so for years. It makes the XBox and numerous computer peripherals. Moreover, Oprah an acknowledged Apple fan just made the Surface one of her favorite things.
So, Nokia has great hardware, and Microsoft's OS is pretty good. I'd take an Windows Phone over Android. We are seeing what happens when Microsoft has to compete fairly. In the PC market, Microsoft was essentially handed IBM's market.
Microsoft's problem now is 1) small application store, 2) lack of partners willing to support the OS, and 3) it doesn't control the retail experience. All this is ironic because Microsoft used to tell people to buy Windows over Macs because of the lack of applications. Sales people used to push people to Windows machines for the same reason. It is going to cost Microsoft a lot of money to gain ground unless it can start exploiting some other assets it has like the XBox.
Microsoft also seems to be under the impression people actually liked Windows as opposed to put up with it. They should have kept Metro as the products name or came up with something better.

I don't disagree with your analysis, but you left out a major part of Microsoft's problems in getting acceptance for these products is that they're now competing with their OEMs. It's one thing to license the OS from Microsoft. It's another thing to do so when Microsoft is competing with you. Google is facing the same problem, btw, which will likely account for even greater fragmentation of Android (a la Kindle).
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post #44 of 75

Interesting. Much like with the Surface being made "In House" this move makes sense for Microsoft.

 

Unfortunately for them it's about 6 years too late. Apple's iPhone blew on by everybody even as Baldmer was pooh-poohing it right after launch. With Androids flooding their filth on the market Microsoft is destined to be a niche player in the smartphone market. RIM is dead and so is Nokia.

post #45 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

Alright, thanks, so it is this 'shipped' fallacy again... Meanwhile web traffic stats tells absolutely nothing about market share...
http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_browser-ww-monthly-201211-201211-bar

 

Which kind of proves their point.

 

The iPhone stands at 19%

Android stands at 25%

 

Considering that the number of Android models available far outstrips the number of iPhone models then that's pretty impressive.

post #46 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post


Microsoft makes hardware and has done so for years. It makes the XBox and numerous computer peripherals. Moreover, Oprah an acknowledged Apple fan just made the Surface one of her favorite things....

 

I think you're twisting and spinning this waaay to hard.  I don't see any reason to really believe you at all.  

 

Microsoft has experience making mice and keyboards and they didn't even jump into those markets with both feet until they were reasonably mature.  Also, almost the entire "design" of those products is in the shape of the plastic housing.  This is nothing like saying that Microsoft has computer or phone manufacturing experience.  The Xbox, which everyone points to for Microsoft's hardware "cred" is famous for being possibly the worst quality manufacturing job in the entire history of computers.  

 

And Oprah?  Seriously?  Do I really have to even get into why Oprah thinking the Surface is great is completely irrelevant?  

 

 

700

 

 

Have you actually tried to use a Surface RT?  I have and I'm not impressed at all by the hardware.  It's an awful design for a tablet and not that well put together.  The one I have been using got a gigantic, highly noticeable scratch across the back within an hour of being out of the box.  The touch screen is "iffy" and the gyroscope takes like 5 or 10 seconds to realise you've rotated the device.  

post #47 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

Which kind of proves their point.

The iPhone stands at 19%
Android stands at 25%

Considering that the number of Android models available far outstrips the number of iPhone models then that's pretty impressive.

I'm more amazed at the unique "activation" numbers for Android OS (not a fork) Google claims compared to iOS usage numbers across the net.

Where are these devices being used if not online?

Some will claim that people are changing their browsers to say they are iPhones (which sounds like complete BS to me); my hypothesis is most Android devices are really the new "feature phones".

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post #48 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I'm more amazed at the unique "activation" numbers for Android OS (not a fork) Google claims compared to iOS usage numbers across the net.
Where are these devices being used if not online?
Some will claim that people are changing their browsers to say they are iPhones (which sounds like complete BS to me);

I agree, I don't know how it's a defensible suggestion. Just because the browser string can be easily changed doesn't mean it's actually being done by large numbers of people. I don't believe a lot of people even know about the feature, much less have any desire to do so.

Quote:
my hypothesis is most Android devices are really the new "feature phones".

Can you get an Android phone without a data plan? I've always had the impression that you're getting a data plan, unless you try ridiculously hard to avoid it.

It would be nice to see a reasonable explanation as to why Android doesn't show up well on some of these web usage stats.
post #49 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

 
Check actual usage stats. Where are all these Android phones being used?

The thing about usage stats is that they only measure one metric, web browsing. With many lower tier cellular provider the data speeds are not that great and people who have the lower end Android phones are perhaps not that interested in reading web pages. They play games, txt, and call friends, but those stats are not calculated.

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post #50 of 75
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post
'Usage' maybe? Do elaborate.

 

Really? Usage means actually in use. Apple phones, while "40%" of the market, are 75% of the phones actually in use. Apple tablets, while "60%" of the market, are 95% of the tablets actually in use.

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post #51 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Originally Posted by Sensi View Post
'Usage' maybe? Do elaborate.

 

Really? Usage means actually in use. Apple phones, while "40%" of the market, are 75% of the phones actually in use. Apple tablets, while "60%" of the market, are 95% of the tablets actually in use.

I don't think you can really quantify it in that way. The web stat companies only have selected websites that they monitor. If for example 99% of Kindle Fire users only visit the Amazon web pages, the stat companies would not have access to that information. Likewise Google doesn't give the stat companies any access to Google pages either which might represent a large part of Android usage. Both of those brands have substantial ecosystems outside of the third party stat gathering company's realm. The fact that their is such a large discrepancy between activation ratios and usage ratios indicates there is some other factor involved that can't be easily measured. I would have a difficult time believing people buy Android smartphones to just throw them in a drawer and not use them. There has to be another explanation.

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post #52 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I don't think you can really quantify it in that way. The web stat companies only have selected websites that they monitor. If for example 99% of Kindle Fire users only visit the Amazon web pages, the stat companies would not have access to that information. Likewise Google doesn't give the stat companies any access to Google pages either which might represent a large part of Android usage. Both of those brands have substantial ecosystems outside of the third party stat gathering company's realm. The fact that their is such a large discrepancy between activation ratios and usage ratios indicates there is some other factor involved that can't be easily measured. I would have a difficult time believing people buy Android smartphones to just throw them in a drawer and not use them. There has to be another explanation.

I agree there has to be another explanation, but I don't think that explanation accounts for so much of it. Google is good for services, but not web content. You can go to Google News to see headlines and a summary line, but if you want to read the story, you need to click the link to the content host's site.

You get the stats from the site from its hit log, which you get with an agreement with the site. If an Android device accesses a web page, then that web site records that. Amazon's platform is a bit fuzzy, it's more accurate to call it Android-ish, and I doubt Amazon is sharing that info with Google anyway, I don't think Google is counting Kindle devices in its activations. Google offers a lot of services, but I don't see why Android users aren't visiting sites outside of Google.
Edited by JeffDM - 11/2/12 at 10:10am
post #53 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

You get the stats from the site from its hit log. If an Android device accesses a web page, then that web site knows that. Amazon's platform is a bit fuzzy, it's more accurate to call it Android-ish, and I doubt Amazon is sharing that info with Google anyway.

That is precisely what I am referring to. The stat analysis company has to have a script in the code of the website being accessed that sends the hit count to them. Otherwise the hits go undetected because anonymous websites don't just upload their web logs. All the major sites are very private about the data they are collecting so the third party stat companies have no data from the big sites.

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post #54 of 75
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

But if Windows Phone 8 continues to struggle, the company could decide to [sic] its own hardware, in an effort to spur sales.

 

Because Microsoft's new business model is to sell their own hardware at a loss (original Xbox, first years of Xbox 360, Zune, KIN) then cross their fingers and toes hoping that they will eventually earn back all that lost money through software sales.  Uh.  Huh.  Good thinking there, Ballmer.

 

Microsoft's old business model was, and still is, to 1) force corporate IT shops into expensive Office upgrades and to 2) force PC OEMs to pay them The Windows Tax for every PC they sell (whether or not those PCs actually come with Windows pre-installed.)  Nice work if you can get it.  And note that the word "force" is vital to Microsoft's old business model.

 

Unfortunately (for Microsoft anyway) they can't "force" anybody to buy Windows Phone hardware.  Or software.  Not corporate IT, not techno-moron middle-of-the-bell-curve consumers, not tech-savvy young adult hipsters with up-to-the-minute chunky black eyeglass frames, not teens who still remember KIN, not even octogenarians who just don't care.  No, Microsoft simply can't force anybody to buy Windows Phone hardware.  

 

Microsoft needs to pull customers in with hardware / software quality, depth / breadth of media content and delivery infrastructure, interoperability with other Microsoft ecosystem products, and that intangible, priceless, impossibly rare attribute: mindshare.  You can't buy mindshare.  Microsoft has tried and failed for decades.  The whole "pull" concept is totally alien to them.  Instead, they're still trying to push.  As in blowing millions of marketing dollars on illogical song-and-dance ads instead of simply showing the product and what it can do.  Because Microsoft's products, unlike Apple's, don't sell themselves.

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post #55 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

That is precisely what I am referring to. The stat analysis company has to have a script in the code of the website being accessed that sends the hit count to them. Otherwise the hits go undetected because anonymous websites don't just upload their web logs. All the major sites are very private about the data they are collecting so the third party stat companies have no data from the big sites.

I was not under any impression that data is simply given away, but I don't believe for a minute that stat houses have no data on the biggest sites. They'll have to have some kind of agreement or royalties to get it, that's all.
post #56 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

I own three iPhones, and am an Apple fan. With that said, I have actually used the Nokia Lumina (the metal one in blue) and it is not junk. It has a better build quality than Samsung, HTC, and Motorola top phones.
Part of Nokia's problem is Microsoft. Many of the relatively recent phones aren't even going to be upgradable to the new OS.

Yes, Microsoft is the problem, but not for the reason you stated, because the same upgrade issue exists for all Windows Phone 7 handsets, not just the Lumina. The article is about Microsoft producing competing hardware. Whether or not this is just another so-called "reference design," or a serious move by Microsoft to becoming vertically integrated like Apple, it is a vote of no confidence in Nokia's ability to produce and sell an attractive Windows handset. In other words, their vaunted close partnership is in jeopardy. That's the real story, if the rumor is true.

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post #57 of 75
Microsoft phone? I guess Ballmer wants to be a low volume supplier too!

Hey Steve: you need high quality products sold at a quality price level, and a killer marketing campaign. Oh, it also helps if there aren't other, established high quality products in the sales channel. Think X-Box here. Not Zune. One had little quality competition. One had a quality competitor. You do remember which is which I hope.
post #58 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post


Agreed, and they need to make all kinds of racket when deployed.

Isn't that why they like to position their stores near Apple stores?

If cleverly photographed, the crowds at the Apple store

can almost be made to appear to be Microsoft's...

post #59 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

That is precisely what I am referring to. The stat analysis company has to have a script in the code of the website being accessed that sends the hit count to them. Otherwise the hits go undetected because anonymous websites don't just upload their web logs. All the major sites are very private about the data they are collecting so the third party stat companies have no data from the big sites.

I was not under any impression that data is simply given away, but I don't believe for a minute that stat houses have no data on the biggest sites. They'll have to have some kind of agreement or royalties to get it, that's all.

I did a little research just now and apparently I was incorrect in my original assumption that the analysis companies did not have stats on txt usage. ComScore which is I think the largest of these stat companies actually has agreements with 3 of the 4 major carriers in the UK to get statistical info on usage, no numbers stated fro US, Canada or Japan. In addition to the carrier usage they claim to have 1 million domains that are sending them data. The only well known domain advertised to be participating was cnet.com.

 

The last method of acquiring data was with surveys:


• U.S.: 10,000 mobile phone owners
• UK and Germany: 5,000 mobile phone owners

• France, Spain, Italy and Japan: 4,000 mobile phone owners

• Canada (reported quarterly): 5,000 mobile phone owners  

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post #60 of 75
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Meanwhile anyone else noticed the Apple update system has gone down? Scott must have taken the keys with him!

LOL!

post #61 of 75
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Of course they are ... they have to emulate everything Apple does otherwise they are dead in ten years or sooner.


This is not about emulation. It's about survival.

post #62 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorsos View Post

I like how whenever Apple does something, Microsoft copies and turns it to 11. Aqua had an extra layer of gloss and animation, so Aero practically vomited gloss, and some pretty elaborate file copy animation. Text-based iPod interface? Our music player will be all about text, so big it goes off the screen! Since OS X became more unified and understated, Windows 8 went full basic.

 

This has been the problem with MS for decades.  The best example is MS Word, especially the early versions.  Once Apple had established that a GUI was far more effective than the command line, Microsoft's response was "Icons?  You want Icons?  We'll give you icons!"    So they released MS Word with row after row of icons which duplicated everything in the menus, and ended up taking up half the entire computer screen.   To this day I can't believe they are still wasting so much screen space with the horribly cluttered "ribbon" interface.

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post #63 of 75

If partnering with the company formerly known as the "world's biggest handset manufacturer", couldn't jumpstart the dead horse that Mobile Windows Mobile became, then what possible hope do Microsoft have?

 

Microsoft's support base has fallen to include only a few Tech Sites, who in spite of all their enthusiastic efforts to drum up some sort of interest fail simply because not enough of them buy these phones/tablets/whatever.

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post #64 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacVertigo View Post

right on.. the first phone that’ll experience the blue screen of death.

 

From what I saw in the large screen TVs in the background during the Surface intro, it's now a pink screen of death. 

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post #65 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


Can you get an Android phone without a data plan?

 

Yes sub-$100 PAYG Android phones fit that bill.

 

Android activations aren't all high end phones, as some will have us believe.

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post #66 of 75
Ha ha ha ha haha hahahaha.....Ah ha hahahahahahahahahaha...Ahhhhha ha ha ha ha ha ha....ahhhh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...Ha ha ha ha haha hahahaha.....Ah ha hahahahahahahahahaha...ha ha ha ha ha....Ahhhhha ha ha ha ha ha ha....ahhhh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...Ha ha ha ha haha hahahaha.....Ah ha hahahahahahahahahaha...ah ha ha ha ahhhhha ha ha ha ha ha ha....ahhhh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...Ha ha ha ha haha hahahaha.....Ah ha hahahahahahahahahaha...ha ha ha ha ahhhhha ha ha ha ha ha ha....ahhhh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...Ha ha ha ha haha hahahaha.....Ah ha hahahahahahahahahaha...Ahhhhha ha ha ha ha ha ha....ahhhh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...

I'm going WAYYY out on a limb and make the prediction now that it is going to absolutely SUCK... and NOT sell....

Ha ha ha ha haha hahahaha.....Ah ha hahahahahahahahahaha...Ahhhhha ha ha ha ha ha ha....ahhhh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...Ha ha ha ha haha hahahaha.....Ah ha hahahahahahahahahaha...Ahhhhha ha ha ha ha ha ha....ahhhh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...Ha ha ha ha haha hahahaha.....Ah ha hahahahahahahahahaha...Ahhhhha ha ha ha ha ha ha....ahhhh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...
post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbit_Coach View Post

Looking forward to it! I really hope it comes with a kickstand a stylus and a flip out keyboard.

Not like the useless stuff Apple produces.

 

/s

 

Yep, the only phone you have to use on a flat surface with it's fold-out keyboard ($100 extra of course), which will be the only thing the tech pundits will love.  Of course it will be better because it will have the full version of MS Office.

post #68 of 75
Well now. It's about time. Maybe they will be able to make something original. Or yet maybe they will have to copy and paste.
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post #69 of 75
Finally MS is finally getting it - they've got to do both the hardware and software. By relying on licensing of their software to a bunch of 3rd party assemblers, things are doomed to get messy. That's why the PC market is so fragmented today.

It's too late for MS though. As far as I'm concerned Apple's already got my loyalty.
post #70 of 75

I switched from Apple (which I thought was a really great product) to Android (which I think is a better product for *my* usage).

 

I would guess that my web usage might statistically have gone down.

 

Possible reasons:

My screen is MUCH larger than my iPhones was.  My phone has had LTE for a long time and my LTE in the area is outstanding.  Phones generally tell websites that they are a 'phone' and websites then pitch the 'mobile' version of the webpage to the device.  Mobile pages suck.  They are designed with the assumption that you have a slow connection and a small screen.  Since that gets their ads ignored, many mobile pages change their ads to be more prominent in the mobile version.  My android phone gives me the option to tell websites that I am a 'desktop' computer and get the full normal website I would get on my computer.  That is one of the first things I changed on my phone.  I'm not sure of the methodolgy these tests used, but they might not have counted my web hits at all since I'm not showing up as a 'mobile' user.  My iPhone did not give me permission to set that up, I'm not sure if the newer iPhones do or not or if the majority of iPhone users prefer mobile pages.

 

Second reason.  Widgets.  A lot of my browsing is repetitive stuff.  Biggies would be news, stock market, and weather.  On my iPhone these were all checked on the web.  On my Android phone all of them are automatically done through widgets so I dont even have to open a browser or go to the web to hunt for the information.

 

That would be my personal profile and might not represent the rest of Android users but it makes more sense to me than the gist of many of the responses here along the lines of:

 

Android sales are a lie based on shipping, in reality almost no Android devices have actually been sold. 

Android devices are cheap and can't access the web. 

Android users are too dumb to use the web and the vast majority of them are in third world countries or in caves where there is no wireless reception. 

etc =p

post #71 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX 
Where are these devices being used if not online?

my hypothesis is most Android devices are really the new "feature phones".

In a way but I'd say it's not that they are poor for online use - the people buying them may not use the browser and just use the device as a phone. Affordable Android phones will mop up a lot of Nokia's marketshare and a significant amount of those people will be the texting and talking crowd. There are actually still people alive today who can survive without a Google search box. Somehow mankind has survived for a few millennia this way. Those people will soon die out but for now, they need cheap phones and Android is the place to go.

Microsoft will try to get in on the entry phones too but I actually think a lot of people will find their UI confusing. I don't see how making their own phone will boost sales and it will just annoy their partners who are stuggling to sell Windows Phones.
post #72 of 75
The new Phzune coming soon
post #73 of 75
But will it run Flash? /s

If the Microsoft Phone's build quality doesn't relegate it to the clearance rack, their schizophrenic, rudderless marketing and branding most certainly will. Is anyone else looking forward to the incredibly awkward ad campaigns and forced celebrity pitches?

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post #74 of 75

I know this is an Apple forum and bashing Microsoft is like some kind of state sponsored sport on here, but I don't think everyone should be so negative so quickly.

 

I love Apple, everything bar my phone is Apple, but they need some stiff competition in the portable market that Android simply does not provide; Microsoft is dishing it out in spades and Apple is too busy eyeballing Google (and making products to compete directly with them) to notice MS coming up behind them with a novelty-sized bread knife and a thirst for Apple Juice.

 

The Lumia 920 pre-orders sold out in four days, the Lumia 820 is flying off the shelves, MS Surface RT pre-orders sold out very quickly, HTC 8X and 8S phones have rave reviews and devices from partners like Asus and Lenovo have some frankly amazing devices on offer.

 

Its not too late to piss on Microsoft's parade just yet.

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post #75 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

I know this is an Apple forum and bashing Microsoft is like some kind of state sponsored sport on here, but I don't think everyone should be so negative so quickly.

I love Apple, everything bar my phone is Apple, but they need some stiff competition in the portable market that Android simply does not provide; Microsoft is dishing it out in spades and Apple is too busy eyeballing Google (and making products to compete directly with them) to notice MS coming up behind them with a novelty-sized bread knife and a thirst for Apple Juice.

The Lumia 920 pre-orders sold out in four days, the Lumia 820 is flying off the shelves, MS Surface RT pre-orders sold out very quickly, HTC 8X and 8S phones have rave reviews and devices from partners like Asus and Lenovo have some frankly amazing devices on offer.

Its not too late to piss on Microsoft's parade just yet.

Do you have any sales figures?

I'm not convinced that MS is providing the competition you hope for. The devices are nice, but they're still held back by the OS.
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