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Apple paid 2% in taxes on $36.8B of foreign revenue for fiscal 2012 - Page 4

post #121 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

And yet you fail to see how companies in an unrestricted country would gain monopolies, where they could set prices at will without competitions. 1confused.gif

 

Yes. I do. And you have failed to prove that this would happen. So there we go.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #122 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by arch View Post


If Apple is so 'innovative' in managing income tax, I don't know why they are not doing something about sales tax. If I buy a Mac or any other stuff in the US from Amazon, I do not get charged for sales tax but on Apple online store, I do.

 

What's your point?  This has nothing to do with Apple or being "innovative."  Amazon's operations are in Washington State.  It is required to collect sales tax there.  California is now requiring all online merchants to collect sales tax I believe (correct me if I'm wrong).  Otherwise, out of state Amazon shoppers are not charged sales tax by Amazon.  They are required by law to pay sales tax to their respective states, but no one does (obviously).

 

Apple has operations in all 50 states, hence they collect sales tax in all 50 states.  It's not that hard to understand.

post #123 of 171
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

And yet you fail to see how companies in an unrestricted country would gain monopolies, where they could set prices at will without competitions.

 

They do that now. Ever heard of telecoms? Tell me that texting magically "deserved" to be raised in price simultaneously across all carriers. Tell me that the "only possible step" they could have taken was to simultaneously all move to "family data sharing" plans, removing all of their other plans.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #124 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post


Because the state provides the majority of education, law enforcement and healthcare in most civilised countries?
I think it's pretty shameful that large corporations do everything they can to avoid paying tax and then complain that they can't find educated staff. Maybe there's a link between the two?
Yes, it does.
It helps that there's a correlation between tax and happiness, and not in the direction that you'd think.

 

I'm not sure I agree that there's a correlation between tax and happiness in these countries.  There are quite a few other factors that I'd consider before assuming people in these countries are happier because they pay higher taxes.

 

First, all of these countries are quite small population-wise.  That makes it possible for government to offer more/better services.  These countries are all pretty culturally homogenous too, not the melting pot that is the US.  It's a lot easier to manage a small group of people who are pretty much on the same page than to effectively steer 300 million people with wildly different backgrounds, income levels, education levels, languages spoken, etc. in the same direction.

 

Most of the Europeans I know are happy to pay higher taxes because they actually get something tangible back.  The problem in the US is that our tax money is wasted, wasted, wasted, and most of it goes down some black hole of military/NSA/CIA spending.  We don't have top notch schools.  Not even close.  We don't have safe streets.  Compared to ANY European city, our big cities are borderline war zones.

 

I'd be more than happy to pay higher taxes if that money was well spent and actually went towards improving our society.  But it doesn't.  So why feed the beast any more than absolutely required?

post #125 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by macsimcon View Post

 

Apple should pay its taxes in the U.S. because it's incorporated here. Apple takes advantage of our roads, our courts. The majority of its employees are educated here. It is traded on NASDAQ. Apple enjoys access to the U.S. power grid, and to all the other infrastructure this country has built. Apple enjoys the protections of our military, and the security of our financial system.

 

If Apple wants to enjoy all these benefits, it should contribute taxes to pay for them.

 

And it does.  But it's not taking advantage of our power grid, roads, infrastructure, etc. when it sells a product in France.  So why should it pay taxes in the US on the sale of that product?  The majority of Apple employees are not just educated here in the US, they live here.  So they pay US taxes too.  As does Apple on all of its profits here.

post #126 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

No one would stop you from "investing in your country." You just want to force everyone else to "invest" as well.

 

Not just that, he wants to force everyone to invest in the same terrible investment scheme, the government.  And how is that working these days?  Trillions in debt, one of the the worst education systems among "first world" countries, much higher crime rates than other "first world" countries...

 

But we can build more weapons and drop more bombs than anyone!  We don't have money for our own people, but we're more than happy to take tax dollars and spread them around the world propping up regimes, meddling in others' affairs, and playing puppet master.  Go USA!

post #127 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie View Post

 

 

Your idea that corporation will self-reguate have been proven not to work.  Leek at where we are.  Look at the stock market.  We are living the proof that corporations will destroy the planet and buy the country.  I completely agree with the other poster.

 

I don't think you can say that self-regulation has been proven not to work.  You might be right, of course, but we've never had a truly free market in which to test the concept.  The problems we're dealing with now are the result of little or no regulation in some sectors, but if you're over-regulating some areas and under-regulating others, that's not a free market.

post #128 of 171

If government didn't exist, someone or something else would fill that vacuum of power. Personally, I'd prefer the semblance of representation we have now in the US rather than corporations that are run by unelected CEOs who choose their own successors and only look out for their profits. At least with representative government, the people choose for better or worse their own leaders. It's not a prefect process, nothing is, but it is far better than allowing people that were born into privilege to control everything while the rest of the population has no veto or impeachment power against them.

 

MJ1970, what is a corporation if not a monarchy? Corporations are a form of government if you really think about it, except their only purpose is to increase profit. So all this anarchy-capitalist stuff is just bunk. True anarchy is living as a caveman, raping your "wives", and scraping by on what animals and plants you can get in your hands to shove in your mouth. Capitalism can't exist in anarchy. If government disappeared, a new government would take it's place. It's as simple as that.

When a company stops chasing profit and start chasing the betterment of their products, services, workforce, and customers, that will be the most valuable company in the world.
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When a company stops chasing profit and start chasing the betterment of their products, services, workforce, and customers, that will be the most valuable company in the world.
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post #129 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

MJ1970, what is a corporation if not a monarchy? Corporations are a form of government if you really think about it, except their only purpose is to increase profit.

 

Yes, but in a free market, they do not have any right to use force on anyone. That's a critical difference.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

So all this anarchy-capitalist stuff is just bunk.

 

Well thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

True anarchy is living as a caveman, raping your "wives", and scraping by on what animals and plants you can get in your hands to shove in your mouth. Capitalism can't exist in anarchy.

 

Well why don't you just come right out and admit that you don't know what you're talking about?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #130 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

They do that now. Ever heard of telecoms? Tell me that texting magically "deserved" to be raised in price simultaneously across all carriers. Tell me that the "only possible step" they could have taken was to simultaneously all move to "family data sharing" plans, removing all of their other plans.

 

I am quite aware of that. It's actually not a monopoly, but closer to a cartel, which is just as bad. 

 

It's ML1970 who doesn't seem to see that but that's fine. It seems that he advocates anarchy because he is afraid of the possibility that a government may use force against it's own people, not necessarily the governance part. But he'll quickly correct me if I misunderstood him. I just have a hard time seeing that how can you guarantee any protection against violence or excessive greed without governance (thus taxes). If that makes me narrow-minded, then so be it.

 

Out of curiosity (and laziness of checking it out) what is the total price of sending and receiving a single SMS in the US these days? Here it's roughly 10 cents if you don't have a package.

post #131 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

MJ1970, what is a corporation if not a monarchy? Corporations are a form of government if you really think about it, except their only purpose is to increase profit.

 

Yes, but in a free market, they do not have any right to use force on anyone. That's a critical difference.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

So all this anarchy-capitalist stuff is just bunk.

 

Well thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

True anarchy is living as a caveman, raping your "wives", and scraping by on what animals and plants you can get in your hands to shove in your mouth. Capitalism can't exist in anarchy.

 

Well why don't you just come right out and admit that you don't know what you're talking about?

 In a truly free market, there is no regulation. That means corporations would have to self-regulate, for which they have a poor historical record. We have laws created by lawmakers we elected to represent us for the most part as a reaction to wrongs previously done. Why do you think we have a minimum wage? Why is slavery outlawed? Why are their antidiscriminatory regulations? Why are their anti-monopoly laws? Why were work unions originally organized (regardless of what you feel about them currently)? Also see anti-collusion laws? All because the heads of business acted contrary to the general welfare of the population for an increase in profit. Markets have to be scrutinized and regulated to some degree. Only the degree to which is debatable. A truly free market favors companies consolidating and streamlining into a single profit generating machine, eroding competition and creating monopolies in markets. And those that don't combine would collude to their mutual benefit and the detriment of the consumer.

 

Currently, corporations are buying our officials in government, corrupting it, and you think removing the government would fix the problem? Yes, lets get government out of the way so the corporations can enact what they please directly on us. We need a government truly representative of the populous. As much as I hate using political cliches, we need to get money out of politics. Government isn't the problem. It's who influences the government against the will of the people that's the problem.

When a company stops chasing profit and start chasing the betterment of their products, services, workforce, and customers, that will be the most valuable company in the world.
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When a company stops chasing profit and start chasing the betterment of their products, services, workforce, and customers, that will be the most valuable company in the world.
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post #132 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

I am quite aware of that. It's actually not a monopoly, but closer to a cartel, which is just as bad. 

 

And a government-protected one! That's my point.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

It's ML1970 who doesn't seem to see that but that's fine.

 

I see it very clearly. You seem to be the one pointing to examples of government-supported and protected crony capitalism and offering these as proof that the free market is bad and government is necessary. I find that odd.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

It seems that he advocates anarchy because he is afraid of the possibility that a government may use force against it's own people, not necessarily the governance part.

 

It's not that I'm afraid that will happen...it's what does happen and is happening. It's what the State does.

 

Now, if we could find some way to limit the State to the role of protecting the basic rights of life, liberty and property (and the logical derivative rights from these) of every citizen (and the vanishingly small amount of taxes that would necessary to pay for that) then I wouldn't have a problem with it. The issue is that it never stays within that boundary and quickly becomes a chief culprit in infringing on these rights in one way or another and becomes a tool for doing this at the behest of special interests. It's just that lots of people agree with some of these infringements or don't see them as infringements at all because some person or group is doing something they just don't like.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #133 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

In a truly free market, there is no regulation. That means corporations would have to self-regulate...

 

Not true. The acting of the participants in the market are also a regulating force. You are either ignoring this or unaware of it or don't believe it exists.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

We have laws created by lawmakers we elected to represent us for the most part as a reaction to wrongs previously done. Why do you think we have a minimum wage?

 

Because we have people who don't understand economics making laws.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

Why is slavery outlawed?

 

Because the government that endorsed, supported and protected this abhorrent practice finally came to it senses.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

Why are their antidiscriminatory regulations?

 

Because we have people passing laws that don't respect the basic rights of individuals to discriminate however much we might dislike the act.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

Why are their anti-monopoly laws?

 

Because some less successful competitors got mad and decided to bribe elected officials to use the power the of State instead of competing on their own.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

Currently, corporations are buying our officials in government, corrupting it, and you think removing the government would fix the problem? Yes, lets get government out of the way so the corporations can enact what they please directly on us. We need a government truly representative of the populous. As much as I hate using political cliches, we need to get money out of politics. Government isn't the problem. It's who influences the government against the will of the people that's the problem.

 

I'm sorry if you are unable to see the irony and flaw in your thinking here.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #134 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lutz3toe View Post

We have seen many instances what the Unregulated market can do and has done.

 

We have? Like?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lutz3toe View Post

Remember how the US and the rest of the world got into the 1929 Depression?

 

Yes. I do know. Apparently you don't though because you seem to think it it attributable to the "free market" instead of the interventions of the Federal government under Hoover and FDR.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lutz3toe View Post

All of the Deregulation that the Free Market proponents have been calling for since the 80s has finally got us to where we are today! The Anti-trust, Glass-Steegal you name it. It was like a Casino types of gambling that wasn't gonna last. And remember of the Savings and Loans fiasco?

 

I'm wondering what any of those things have to do with a free market.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #135 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lutz3toe View Post

The Depression was attributed to FDR intervention? OMG, talking about reinterpreting history!

 

Sorry if I understand the history and economics better than your government-school education gave you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #136 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Sorry if I understand the history and economics better than your government-school education gave you.

Are you saying that the current financial crisis started with government intervention as well? 

post #137 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lutz3toe View Post

 

You obviously forgot the tiny detail that The Great Depression was called The Great Republican Depression before it was changed!

 

Score one for you! Irrelevant point of the day!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #138 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Are you saying that the current financial crisis started with government intervention as well? 

 

Yes. Of course it was. Minimally it was started from the Fed created housing bubble. But there were other interventions and distortions as well. Not the least of which is the crisis prolonging "stimulus" and bailouts.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #139 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lutz3toe View Post

That's right, the Hedge Funds, the Casino types of gambling of the Financial sector, the lending practices for the Mortgage industry (u mean they didn't lobby for less regulation?)

 

Who knew they were going to get bailed out by the feds if they got in trouble. We call that moral hazard.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lutz3toe View Post

Are you kidding me? Talking about twisting facts. The Housing bubble created by the Fed?

 

No. Yes.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #140 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Yes. Of course it was. Minimally it was started from the Fed created housing bubble. But there were other interventions and distortions as well. Not the least of which is the crisis prolonging "stimulus" and bailouts.

 

OK. Then a question. Do you see the proposal of forcing investment banking and savings banking to be separate a bad regulatory tactic or a good one? Actually I'm pretty sure of your answer, but if it is as I suspect, I'll stop here.

post #141 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

OK. Then a question. Do you see the proposal of forcing investment banking and savings banking to be separate a bad regulatory tactic or a good one?

 

Bad*. Why?

 

Do you think it is a good one? If so, why?

 

 

*I think the entire government-protected banking cartel needs to be freed first though.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #142 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Please change the title to "Apple LEGALLY paid in taxes"


All of you would do the EXACT same thing too.


Nope. You are wrong. I pay taxes every year and I use the standard deductions. I don't use any loopholes whatsoever. I don't turn in my charitable donations as a tax deduction. I didn't request the deduction for my hybrid back in '04. Please don't claim everyone would do the same thing. Many people are not greedy people who feel they find a way to keep every buck. I live a basic (low middle class) life and don't feel the "need" to fill my life with as many $$$ as I can make.
post #143 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

I use the standard deductions. I don't use any loopholes whatsoever.

 

Toe-may-toe...toe-mah-toe.

 

"Loophole" is the code word for "standard deduction" that someone doesn't like or think is fair.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #144 of 171

I don't get it. Apple already pays the appropriate tax on domestic income. People should be up in arms that they are forced to pay any tax on income from foreign sources!

The Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, once all other possibilities have been exhausted.
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The Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, once all other possibilities have been exhausted.
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post #145 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

...The acting of the participants in the market are also a regulating force...  

 

     Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

Why is slavery outlawed?

 

Because the government that endorsed, supported and protected this abhorrent practice finally came to it senses.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

Why are their antidiscriminatory regulations?

 

Because we have people passing laws that don't respect the basic rights of individuals to discriminate however much we might dislike the act.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

Why are their anti-monopoly laws?

 

Because some less successful competitors got mad and decided to bribe elected officials to use the power the of State instead of competing on their own.

 

...I'm sorry if you are unable to see the irony and flaw in your thinking here.

 

First, you're saying competitors will regulate each other's behaviors in a free market and to an extent that is true. That's how our current system works with some exceptions, good and bad. The flaw in that argument is quite apparent when looking at history. With a governing body in place like the real world has at present, corporations pay off said governing body to their advantage. Now let's remove that governing body. The same corporations will just pay off their competitors/partners in the market to take advantage of it. Look at what Intel did to AMD. Look at what Microsoft did to Netscape. Look what cheaper China products do to US products when the government doesn't step in to regulate rigged international trading. (Of course when the Intel incident was brought up before, you claimed ignorance and moved on, so I'll leave you to your one-sided viewpoint)

 

Honestly there has been government in every society on earth, from the largest empires to the lowliest tribes. You can't provide a single example of a truly free market because there never has been one, so therefore how do you know it will work?

 

I ask because even as you admit, when government allows corporations to choose to do something inherently wrong, like slavery, discrimination, or something as simple as legal tax evasion, corporations do it. You said government endorsed and protected slavery. That is basically saying the government allowed slavery, and what happened? Plantations and factories populated their workforce with slaves. If you took away the government that allowed slavery, what competitors would have enacted their own version of the Emancipation Proclamation?

 

Yes, competitors could advertise their goods as "slave-free" products but at a much higher cost. You know what consumers do. A huge percentage vote with their wallets for the lowest price and only a small minority vote for "morally upright" products. The competitors couldn't argue with the slave employers to stop because they have no power over what others do. The market would be flooded with cheap slave-labor goods and those corporations would have the money to buy out or force out all non-slave competition. Too bad those less successful competitors couldn't complain to some nonexistent government to prevent this.

 

I'm sorry you are unable to see the logical conclusion to your free market. Outside regulation is necessary. Representative government has created the most stable, safe, rich, and free nations the world has known. Nothing is perfect, but I prefer the path we're on to some system that has never wholy existed and through experience has ended up the dead wrong direction to go.

 

I'll never change your mind though, and historical evidence won't allow me to believe in your unrealistic system, so good day.

When a company stops chasing profit and start chasing the betterment of their products, services, workforce, and customers, that will be the most valuable company in the world.
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When a company stops chasing profit and start chasing the betterment of their products, services, workforce, and customers, that will be the most valuable company in the world.
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post #146 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Or they could lower taxes.


What, so The US government would have to borrow even more money from China to pay for the society and standard of living Americans enjoy?

post #147 of 171
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post
What, so The US government would have to borrow even more money from China to pay for the society and standard of living Americans enjoy?

 

I really don't know why so many people think China actually owns any meaningful portion of our debt.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #148 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by arch View Post


If Apple is so 'innovative' in managing income tax, I don't know why they are not doing something about sales tax. If I buy a Mac or any other stuff in the US from Amazon, I do not get charged for sales tax but on Apple online store, I do.

You must be in the same state the point of sale takes place thus Apple has to collect sales tax from you.
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #149 of 171
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
You must be in the same state the point of sale takes place thus Apple has to collect sales tax from you.

 

So where's Amazon "taking place", states without sales tax at all?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #150 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


What, so The US government would have to borrow even more money from China to pay for the society and standard of living Americans enjoy?

 

No. They could cut spending (more) also.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #151 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

And a government-protected one! That's my point.

 

 

 

I see it very clearly. You seem to be the one pointing to examples of government-supported and protected crony capitalism and offering these as proof that the free market is bad and government is necessary. I find that odd.

 

 

Thank you for finally spelling out your ideology. I find parts of it very similar to my thinking, but my disagreement comes from the fact that I do not believe  that if capitalism is left without any guards, it would definitely NOT self regulate and would create a slaving monopoly and/or cartel system. How for example you can see the mining societies, which exploited (and still do in Africa - blood diamonds for example) as government-supported and protected crony capitalism, when it occurs in environments where the governments have no power over these corporations is quite baffling. If government officials are bought by big money, it is the people, that should take a stand and correct these by electing other people into office and demanding for increased transparency.

 

I intentionally did not take AT&T et. al. as an example, because it is an example of a failed regulatory case (I guess they paid the right officials). I never said governments are perfect, just that I believe total unrestricted capitalism is far worse.

 

You statement: "Now, if we could find some way to limit the State to the role of protecting the basic rights of life, liberty and property (and the logical derivative rights from these) of every citizen (and the vanishingly small amount of taxes that would necessary to pay for that) then I wouldn't have a problem with it." is one I do agree with one exception. How can you protect rights of life, liberty and property is you have no way to enforce those protections? What's your option for a police/military enforcement entity if it is not government controlled? Hopefully not corporate controlled.

post #152 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

I do not believe  that if capitalism is left without any guards, it would definitely NOT self regulate and would create a slaving monopoly and/or cartel system.

 

I understand you believe that. I do not and you, in my opinion, have failed to make a convincing case.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

How for example you can see the mining societies, which exploited (and still do in Africa - blood diamonds for example) as government-supported and protected crony capitalism, when it occurs in environments where the governments have no power over these corporations is quite baffling.

 

It would be necessary to look at the details of each of those situations to do a proper analysis. Sadly government complicity is often difficult to see at first glance.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

If government officials are bought by big money, it is the people, that should take a stand and correct these by electing other people into office and demanding for increased transparency.

 

That doesn't seem to be working.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

I believe total unrestricted capitalism is far worse.

 

And I disagree. Governments are far worse.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

How can you protect rights of life, liberty and property is you have no way to enforce those protections? What's your option for a police/military enforcement entity if it is not government controlled?

 

I thought my explanation was clear. Sorry. What I suggested was a legitimate government/State. It would be a government police force. But the role and responsibilities of the State would be limited to those things. As it stands though, they never seems to be constrained to those responsibilities and quickly expand to become infringers, violators and restricting actor. Often at the request of their special interests (corporate and otherwise.) In other words, a small step back from anarcho-capitalism. Some might call it "minarchism" or the "night watchman state."

 

The problem is that most people look at the State like Santa Claus or as some benevolent benefactor or as some equalizer whose job is to right alleged "wrongs" and they start giving it lots of power that gets used to infringe on some people's lives, liberty and property for the benefit of others. It goes down hill from there. Slowly perhaps, but inevitably it appears.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #153 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

That doesn't seem to be working.

 

Depends where you are I guess as well. I can understand your viewpoint living in the US, where the corruption index is 7.1/10. I live in the nordics, where it's in the 9.x/10 range and I don't have any problems with the police or military forces here. Can't remember seeing any news on opressing people with force in recent history.

post #154 of 171
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Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Depends where you are I guess as well.

 

I suppose that's true. Yes, I am in the US.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #155 of 171
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

So where's Amazon "taking place", states without sales tax at all?

 

Washington State.  If you live in WA, you pay sales tax when ordering from Amazon.  Amazon is not incorporated in other states, thus they don't have to collect sales tax in those states.  Apple is (presumably) incorporated in all 50 states.  Thus, you pay sales tax anytime you buy from Apple.  And, by law you're supposed to pay sales tax on those untaxed Internet purchases from Amazon, etc. too.  But I doubt many (any?) of us do!

post #156 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbyx View Post

Washington State.  If you live in WA, you pay sales tax when ordering from Amazon.  Amazon is not incorporated in other states, thus they don't have to collect sales tax in those states.  Apple is (presumably) incorporated in all 50 states.

 

Actually it doesn't have to do with the state of incorporation. It is about whether or not the company has a presence (possibly only retail) and/or physically sells product in that state. So it's the fact that Apple has a store in a given state that requires them to collect sales tax.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #157 of 171
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

I really don't know why so many people think China actually owns any meaningful portion of our debt.

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/15/us-debt-how-big-who-owns

post #158 of 171

 

And? Why do you think that this is the entirety of our debt?

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #159 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I really don't know why so many people think China actually owns any meaningful portion of our debt.

They buy lots and lots of bonds you know. It would potentially collapse our economy if they cashed them in. That's one of the reasons why theddollar will remain the world's currency,
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #160 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by macsimcon View Post

 

There is no bigger scam going in the United States than owning a corporation. You can write-off all sorts of stuff: cars, offices, computers, trips, clothing, tools, raw materials...assuming you have revenue, of course. NOBODY pays that corporate tax rate you reference. My company doesn't. We pay very little in taxes due to all these deductions.

 

The corporate share of all taxes paid in the U.S. is 20% of what it was 50 years ago. I think that's bad, because it means more money has to be shouldered by the middle-class, who can't afford it.

 

Apple is a U.S. corporation, and ALL of its profits (worldwide) should be taxed as income to that U.S. corporation, no matter how Apple has structured its phantom corporations in Ireland and The Netherlands to minimize its taxes. Of course, that will never happen, because Apple is lobbying to make sure its taxes go down, not up.

 

That makes them no different than any other company in the Fortune 500. That's how our laws and tax code allow them to act.

 

That said, have you seen what Apple's tax rate is in the U.S.? It's like 27%! Apple is paying a phenomenal amount of money in taxes because they're making an incredible amount of money in profits. That makes me happy to support them, but I still wish they wouldn't lobby to lower their taxes.


The defense that "all corporations do it" isn't good enough. Apple should be a cut above, not running with the crowd.


I am supposing that you pay more taxes than you have to every year as well because you want to be a cut above as well. Right? No, I didn't think so.

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"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." Douglas Adams

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