Apple mulling transition away from Intel chips for Macs - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by melgross 


Are you claiming to actually know something here? I have no doubt that they could write OS X to run directly on ARM, but that doesn't help the many thousands of programs out there that will not.
And running, doesn't translate to running well. As the iPhone five can just beat an old G4 laptop, it isn't going to be very useful. How many people are willing to drop back to that now pathetic level of performance? Not very many.
Why would they want their own x86 license? That would be a waste for them. There is no way they could keep pace with Intel. AMD is so far behind, it's hardly worthwhile thinking about it. Without a state of the art factory, it's impossible to keep up with Intel on their own turf. That's not a useful suggestion.
This is just rumor and speculation. Nothing more.

Apple stated, at the introduction of the iPhone five years ago, that iOS is a slimmed down OS-X. A So OS X ALREADY runs directly on ARM, in more than 400 million devices. Applications written in Objective C under X-Code (which is used for both iOS and OS X development, already supporting both instruction sets) could be recompiled into ARM with the flick of a switch (once 64-bit arrives), so that takes care of the bulk of existing native OS X applications.

When Apple purchased PA Semi, those folks had already fielded PowerPC compatible chips with better performance/power than anything produced by Motorola/IBM. Apple has enough money in the bank to engineer well beyond AMD's capabilities. TSMC has state of the art (if not state of Intel's art) factories, and single digit margins. This gives Apple the ability to apply the margin difference to make up for potential performance lag. If you can cut the price of an acre of silicon in half by removing Intel's margins, you can afford to ship twice the acreage, if you need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jragosta 


It will also lead to a massive decrease in performance - which would not be acceptable to most people.
We're a long way from ARM even reaching current levels of Intel performance - and by the time they do, Intel will be much faster than they are now.
At best, I could see an iPad Pro with something like a MBA form factor (and regular keyboard) which is intended to be between the MBA and iPad. This could run on ARM. Replacing MBP and iMac and Mac Pro processors with ARM? Nope.
There is, of course, always the possibility of using AMD chips, though.

Apple may have identified a huge chunk of users that don't need the performance of the fastest CPU of the market, and who are already used to the iOS UI. Give them a laptop type of device with a huge lifetime between charges and the iOS library of applications and it's a winner. This new computer may not initially replace the Intel laptops/desktops, unless the trend becomes a flood. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

I foresee two platforms: iOS-based and OSX/Intel based.    Laptops could move away from Intel, while desktops do not.  However, it won't be for 3-4 years, at least.

 

Chromebook only without the suck.

I think you are onto the idea Apple may be investigating. With over 400 million iOS devices on the market today, there is a huge demand for portable computing and that needs to be met with CPUs and GPUs that are not power hogs. The current A6X is fast enough to drive a non-retina 13" display while running competent word processors & spread sheets, mail programs & browsers, and games like most people find sufficient to their needs.

Apple could still ship MBPr computers for the power users, which are a minority today, just like the Mac Pro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrosmash 

When pigs fly.

 

There's very little doubt they've worked on porting OS X to ARM.  Why wouldn't they?  I'm sure there are much more interesting projects they are working on that will never see the light of day.

 

Maybe someday it will become slightly viable, sensible, and beneficial to transition Macs to ARM, but that day is so far off into the future that it's not even worth thinking about.

... and maybe that day is 2013 for the emerged base of current iOS users. Apple is right now experimenting with shipping iPad Minis and iPad 4 without cellular connectivity. What if next year Apple ships a new group of super-portable ARM devices that let you drop in your iPhone (with the lightning connector) for those times you need cellular data connection?

Quote:

Originally Posted by backtomac 

Indeed. At Ars they reviewed the new Chromebook running on the latest and greatest ARM processor an A15. It was substantially slower than a MBA running on a 1.6 core 2 duo cpu. 

 

If this rumor is true, it would also indicate to me that Apple are going to abandon the creative pro market. There is no way ARM will be competitive with Intel big iron for applications like Photoshop and video editing.

(1) Apple's iOS running an A6X is already butter fast powering a 10" screen. (2) Apple's iOS is optimized for an ARM chip and doesn't have the overhead of Android OS. (3) While most users are not pro users, Apple doesn't need to switch all their products away from Intel. It would be prudent to feed that market as well. I think Apple has a strong interest in the portable pro market and a stronger desire to build the consumer market by filling all the niches at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jameskatt2 

Unless ARM can do Intel i7 emulation FASTER than an Intel i7 CPU, then this is a fool's dream.

 

Any transition has to be with a much faster CPU to do decent emulation.  All the years of Intel code won't run on ARM since ARM is too whimpy.

If the Apple ARM computers are aimed at the general consumer market, then there's no need to run Intel-legacy software, or Intel-pro software. Don't forget that Apple now has a huge app library to satisfy most users today. It's a changing tech world and Apple is poised to push it along new paths.

I'd much rather see Apple make Windows compatibility irrelevant by fielding good native applications (or creating an environment attractive enough for others to do so), so I agree that Win RT emulation will probably not be a big deal. While Apple may have seen the ability to virtualize Windows as important during the PowerPC->Intel transition, I don't think they're seeing that now.

Originally Posted by AppleInsider According to one of the sources, the recently-returned Bob Mansfield has long been interested in making a more consistent experience across iOS and OS X, a goal that could take shape as former mobile software chief Scott Forstall was recently ousted. 

And, of course, since Jony Ive is now in charge of software design as well as hardware design, we can expect to see better, more consistent UX design across all Apple products.  That may well mean more unification between OS X and iOS, at least in terms of user interface design elements.  (Edit: added the words "design elements.")

Oh, and it is 100% inevitable that Macs will eventually transition to ARM-based Apple CPUs.  The iMac and MacBook Air and mini, anyway.  Apple might decide to keep an Intel build of OS X around for "Pro" MacBooks and Mac towers that still run those red-hot Intel legacy chips.  Until Adobe and other foot-dragging ISVs port their "Pro" apps to OS X for ARM.  (And if they don't, Apple won't wait for them.  They'll just release their own "Pro" apps to replace Photoshop, Office, and all that legacy bloatware.)

(Edit: the ARMv8 64-bit instruction set was published about a year ago.  ARM announced their 64-bit Cortex-A53 and Cortex-A57 cores last month.  All Apple has to do is design a quad-core variant, optimize it for energy efficiency, and voila: quad-core 64-bit ARM-based MacBook Air.  With no "Intel fan.")

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlituna 


Lets talk about that after they have proven without a reasonable doubt that it is effective

Agreed, Microsoft's move to ARM is reactive. Apple's agglomeration of chip design experts seems proactive to me.

I've found iWork very usable for routine Office documents, however once they get a little complicated like animation in Keynote, tables coming from Word and various combined functions in Excel, it starts to lose its compatibility but this only comes up every once in a while and depends on which direction you are going either Mac-> Win or Win-> Mac, whether or not it is important. I view iPads as sort of the quick and dirty tool when it comes to Office documents so most of the time it would be just fine since it is not really a power user device anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SockRolid 

 

And, of course, since Jony Ive is now in charge of software design as well as hardware design, we can expect to see better, more consistent UX design across all Apple products.  That may well mean more unification between OS X and iOS, at least in terms of user interface. ...

This is just crazy talk.  

You're basing this on the unproven and undefended assumption that "unification of UX design" across multiple categories of products, each having a different utility and in many cases a different market, would actually be a "good thing."  

Everything Apple has said to date, and every product they have made to date, would argue against this assumption.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsimpsen 

I forgot to add that Microsoft's forking of Windows into both ARM (RT) and X86 variants may open the door for Apple ARM hardware to virtualize Win RT. That brings Office to iOS, which is a pretty big deal.

This statement makes no sense at all.  

In what world would "virtualising Windows RT" on an iOS device be useful to anyone?  How would this "give you Office" (for ARM) in any practical sense?  

The only thing I can envision along these lines is someone jailbreaking an iPad, then using a hack to install Windows RT on it instead of iOS, then running Office ... then ... win? I mean WTF?  This makes no sense at all.  

Even if you could get Windows RT and iOS running on the same device, you'd have to reboot to use it.  How is that effective at all?  How is this better than simply using the world class word processor that already exists for iOS?  How is this better than using "Office to Go" or any of the other apps that already let you edit Word documents on iOS?  How is this better or easier than simply using *any* online document editing system?  

Apple's decline may start when they get off intel's roadmap and go on their own.

Intel made Apple relevant in a way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil 

Originally Posted by Kolchak 
That's not a small loss for many users.

Really, it sort of is. Macs don't sell because of Boot Camp.

To some buyers, I believe they do.  

Apple didn't make enterprise inroads these last few years

solely because of the iPod, iPhone, or iPad. 

There's a synergy (don't you love vague buzzwords?  never mind, I know you do).

And when you are working with a small minority of desktop users already...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazoobee 

 

This is just crazy talk.  

 

You're basing this on the unproven and undefended assumption that "unification of UX design" across multiple categories of products, each having a different utility and in many cases a different market, would actually be a "good thing."  

 

Everything Apple has said to date, and every product they have made to date, would argue against this assumption.  

Um, no it's not "crazy talk."  But yeah, I should have made myself a little more clear.  I was talking at a lower level than you're probably thinking.  More in terms of textures and colors.  For an example of cross-platform UX confusion in a single app, take a look at Calendar on iOS and OS X.  Skeuomorphic torn paper and stitched leather on one, plain iOS Interface Builder elements on the other.  

And for an example of radically different UX design in separate apps whose features overlap somewhat, take a look at the Calendar app and the Reminders app (on OS X and iOS.)  Calendar is straight vanilla IB on iOS and has skeuomorphic fakeness on OS X.  But Reminders is completely paved-over with relentless slate / gray on iOS and OS X.  It reminds me of the old brushed-aluminum days of OS X 10.3, when some apps had the brushed-aluminum look and others had the striped-iMac-plastic-bezel look.  (I do prefer the Reminders look and feel over the vanilla Calendar, BTW.)

Crossing fingers and toes in anticipation of a stitched-leather-free Calendar app on both iOS and OS X. 

I completely agree that iOS and OS X will never share a common UX architecture, and I should have made that clearer.  They can't, unless Apple makes the catastrophic mistake of adding multi-touch screens to Macs.  Fine for occasional-use kiosks.  Terrible for all-day productivity.  Just look up "gorilla arm" in Wikipedia.

Don't ask me how running Office on Apple hardware is better, ask all those who say Apple is doomed without that capability. I haven't used Office in ten years. I'm simply saying that Apple is capable of addressing that issue, if it is an issue, and many claim it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by melgross 


If that's your assumption, then you have a lot to learn. We bandy about the term "OS X". But OS X is the entire OS, not just the core, which is in iOS. Take away the desktop, and you no longer have OS X. Take away the printing technology, the graphics technology and all the other things Apple left out because iOS devices don't need it, and you no longer have OS X. We have Darwin, for the most part, and that's just part of OS X.
Then for iOS, Apple developed an entirely new UI, an entirely new printing tech, and entirely new graphics tech, etc.
What do you think needs to happen here? Do you think Adobe, Microsoft, and thousands of other developers will again want to move to a new chip family? That would be a very difficult sell.
As in most major moves, this is far more complex than you think it is.

Core Audio, Core Animation, Core Image, Quartz, OpenGL, OpenCL, Grand Central Disptach all exist under iOS. Anyone who's developed using Cocoa needn't do much more than recompile. Just as Apple ran parallel development of OS X for PowerPC/X86, they're doing it for ARM. The differentiation of iOS/OS X is functional, not architectural. It's already been reported (take it with a grain of salt, but only a grain) that MacBook Air chassis have been tested running OS X on ARM.

Of course it's far more complex than I think it is, so is Apple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SockRolid 

 

Um, no it's not "crazy talk."  But yeah, I should have made myself a little more clear.  I was talking at a lower level than you're probably thinking.  More in terms of textures and colors.  For an example of cross-platform UX confusion in a single app, take a look at Calendar on iOS and OS X.  Skeuomorphic torn paper and stitched leather on one, plain iOS Interface Builder elements on the other.  

 

And for an example of radically different UX design in separate apps whose features overlap somewhat, take a look at the Calendar app and the Reminders app (on OS X and iOS.)  Calendar is straight vanilla IB on iOS and has skeuomorphic fakeness on OS X.  But Reminders is completely paved-over with relentless slate / gray on iOS and OS X.  It reminds me of the old brushed-aluminum days of OS X 10.3, when some apps had the brushed-aluminum look and others had the striped-iMac-plastic-bezel look.  (I do prefer the Reminders look and feel over the vanilla Calendar, BTW.)

 

Crossing fingers and toes in anticipation of a stitched-leather-free Calendar app on both iOS and OS X. 

 

I completely agree that iOS and OS X will never share a common UX architecture, and I should have made that clearer.  They can't, unless Apple makes the catastrophic mistake of adding multi-touch screens to Macs.  Fine for occasional-use kiosks.  Terrible for all-day productivity.  Just look up "gorilla arm" in Wikipedia.

I should have realised you weren't making the stupid argument I thought you were (although many will make that argument).  Apologies.  It seems like we basically agree. 

I think it's more likely the laptop form factor will cease to exist.

This is silly.  Personally, I could give a rip what processor they use.   Then went to Intel because it was easy to allow them to run Windows on a Mac, plus they hit the 3G mark before IBM did with the PowerPC chip and Intel had better technology with regards to low power.  Plus it's good marketing and PC users feel more comfortable switching.

But, if you look past the BS, if they can design ARM chips that can run faster, cooler, less power, and less expensive to design, and smaller foot print, why not?

It's just a mater of how difficult is it for the apps to be written to support those chips?  Is it a complete re-write or is it a simply re-compile?  

Either way, people should not make this into a big deal before anything is shown and announced.

Originally Posted by boredumb 
Apple didn't make enterprise inroads these last few years solely because of the iPod, iPhone, or iPad. 

They sure didn't do it thanks to Boot Camp! No one is going to buy a Mac just to run Windows. They'll drop $400 on a piece of crap Windows desktop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav 

Remember, Apple was developing Into MacOS X years before it switched. Apple is keeping their options open.

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrosmash 

When pigs fly.

 

There's very little doubt they've worked on porting OS X to ARM.  Why wouldn't they?  I'm sure there are much more interesting projects they are working on that will never see the light of day.

 

Maybe someday it will become slightly viable, sensible, and beneficial to transition Macs to ARM, but that day is so far off into the future that it's not even worth thinking about.

Both of which logically implies they've also had iOS running on Atom in their labs (just as they had OS X running on x86 for years) - and could likely leverage Intel to create a custom version of same utilizing their own growing fabless chip design and expertise. 

So the switch could be in the other direction.  Or they could even use both ARM and Atom on per which device would need which....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil 

Really, it sort of is. Macs don't sell because of Boot Camp.

Well, here's one customer they'd lose if I couldn't run Windows on a Mac....  ...there are a few Win Programs I absolutely need.  And if an iPad becomes my mobile device, I'll have no need for two "full" computers in my house.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsimpsen 

Apple stated, at the introduction of the iPhone five years ago, that iOS is a slimmed down OS-X. A So OS X ALREADY runs directly on ARM, in more than 400 million devices. Applications written in Objective C under X-Code (which is used for both iOS and OS X development, already supporting both instruction sets) could be recompiled into ARM with the flick of a switch (once 64-bit arrives), so that takes care of the bulk of existing native OS X applications.

 

When Apple purchased PA Semi, those folks had already fielded PowerPC compatible chips with better performance/power than anything produced by Motorola/IBM. Apple has enough money in the bank to engineer well beyond AMD's capabilities. TSMC has state of the art (if not state of Intel's art) factories, and single digit margins. This gives Apple the ability to apply the margin difference to make up for potential performance lag. If you can cut the price of an acre of silicon in half by removing Intel's margins, you can afford to ship twice the acreage, if you need it.

Apple is never going to choose a chip that's twice as big as the competition. Smaller, thinner, lighter applies to the inside of the Mac just as much as the outside.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napoleon_PhoneApart 

 

Oldsters? Please. I'm almost 57. Put your overly-broad paintbrush away.

I'm 54, but I wasn't referring to chronological age. Every technology, no matter how revolutionary and elegant in the beginning matures into bloated dogma with most people convinced that's just the way it has to be. Apple is the only big manufacturer that repeatedly shows it is willing to sabotage its most successful products with what they believe is a better way. As long as feature size continues to shrink this is the only way we consumers will continue to benefit from the miracle of miniaturization. If no consumer product manufacturers are willing to periodically risk alienating their users then the surveillance state and the military will be the sole beneficiaries.