I Don't Recognize My Country Anymore - Page 4

Oh please. Don't be an idiot. If you continue to believe the rightwingnut bubblehead version of reality, OF COURSE you can't recognize the truth.

This is probably the same thought that millions of Americans were asking in 2004 when Bush Jr was reelected.

In both cases the viewpoint is ridiculously partisan and very misguided.

Bottom line is, just like in 2004, the other side did not offer a viable alternative that would convince enough people that the new guy would do a better job than the current guy.

Both sides need to abandon the ridiculous partisan extremist viewpoints and realize that this country needs to get back to the concept of compromise in order to achieve anything.

Also, expecting an administration to delivery the kind of turnaround on the economy necessary after the disaster we saw in less than four years was a bit unrealistic.  Everyone knows, the effects of economic policy take longer than four years to appear.

A modest proposal:  Stop watching Fox and listening to right-wing radio all the time, and your power to understand what's going on in the country - and why Romney lost - will improve.

A modest proposal:  Stop watching Fox and listening to right-wing radio all the time, and your ability  to understand what's going on in the country - and why Romney lost - will improve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

 

As for the race comment, I stand by it.  Many blacks voted for Obama because he was the first black President.  

 

And you think that a lot of southern whites in all those red(neck) states didn't vote for Romney because he is white? Right....

White, black, Dem, Rep, doesn't really matter because there is still gridlock and the federal deficit which is going to make the housing bubble look like lunch money when this one bursts. We take in around 2 trillion a year in taxes and we spend about 3 trillion.

Just imagine that the country is like a household. Let's say that your dad has a heart attack from years of overindulgent diet and no exercise. So you have to borrow on your home to pay for the medical bills. That would be the current financial crisis, the result of years of poor financial policy and the subsequent bail out. But now you find that you cannot pay the payments on line of credit so you use your credit cards. You don't consider canceling your cable service or your beer habit as those are essential expenditures. You also don't want to get a second job or move to a less expensive home. So how long is it until the bottom falls out and you have no more credit and the home is foreclosed?

This is the same scenario the country is in. The dems do not want to cut social services and the reps don't want to cut military spending or raise taxes on the wealthy. So the gridlock continues until the Chinese and the other foreign investors foreclose on our country. 2 trillion in -> 3 trillion out, you do the math. It doesn't matter who won the election we are still fucked and it won't be very long until the chickens come home to roost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

2.  Neither China nor foreign investors will "foreclose" on our country.  Frankly, this shows a real lack of understanding on your part about our debt.  The vast majority is held by U.S. investors.  We're selling T Bills to ourselves.  And China is too interdependent to really do anything crazy like dumping their dollar reserves. It would wreck them, too.  

Actually the only entity that owns more US debt than China is the US Treasury and that is only because they can print money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

1. Raising taxes on "the wealthy" is not a solution.  Even if such increases only affected the rich, and even if they didn't dampen growth, they'd only bring in about 90 billion.  Not even close to what is needed.

Correct. What's worse, it may actually dampen growth enough that the $90B will be a generous estimate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

2.  Neither China nor foreign investors will "foreclose" on our country.  Frankly, this shows a real lack of understanding on your part about our debt.  The vast majority is held by U.S. investors.  We're selling T Bills to ourselves.  And China is too interdependent to really do anything crazy like dumping their dollar reserves. It would wreck them, too.

Well, they may not "foreclose" in any formal sense, but they may start divesting themselves (slowly and carefully, but divesting nonetheless) because they aren't stupid and they aren't about to get screwed by the Fed and Treasury simply monetizing the debt away. So this is a delicate balancing act. Fact is, if the Fed and Treasury think they can monetize away (print money) the debt, they will begin a big spiral downward and we're all in for a world of hurt. The thing to realize is that the majority of major bond holder are not stupid and they won't allow themselves to get screwed.

Japan is essentially tied as our biggest foreign creditor and will overtake China by January.

Romney lost the election because he could not define himself as a genius investor who knows business and the economy and how to turn around an economy that does not grow job fast enough. Why? Democrat strategists were brilliant to cease the opportunity by running a successful campaign by painting him a flip-flopper early in the election, a job-shipper to China and a vulture capitalist while at Bain Capital. Romney 47% comments did not help at all.

As to SDW2001 comments, you appear to be a person only reading Dredge Report, watch Fox TV and listen to Russ Limbaugh radio. You are right about one thing and that is the country is no longer the same. It is no longer the same demographically.

Here are my problems with the Republican party. It had turned to extreme right.

When a politician spend some money to help the needy poor, on education ad on regulations you call him communist while when a politician started an unnecessary war, it is O.K.

The complain about big intruding government, yet when it comes to women body, the (VA) government has every right to poke at it. 

The big deficit right now is the result of 2 wars and 10 years of Bush tax cuts for the rich by the Republican Bush and yet the right is trying to blame it all on the President. 

The country is great with 47 million plus of its citizen without medical insurance or affordable health care. What is so great about that? It is a national shame.

The real shame about the past election was that neither party nor candidate address how to fix the country real problems, deficits, social security, medicare and

medicaid.

I am a truly independent middle of the road voter. Extreme views from either party will not get my vote. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

The other point here (one that gets overlooked) is the dollar is still the reserve currency.  This means we can get away with inflating our debt away to an extent---for now.  Once that changes, the crapstorm begins. 

You're saying that because the US$ is the reserve currency of the world, the US can get away with basically cheating its creditors by monetizing (inflating the money supply) away the debt.

You're damn right the crap storm will begin. Wait until the US isn't the biggest kid on the block anymore and others don't need to take its shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

 

It wasn't a "strategy."  It was what they  thought turnout would be.  They made decisions as a result, and felt confident that Obama couldn't match his 2008 performance.  

 

 

 

1.  Wait, so you are saying that minority turnout was so high because they viewed Romney as a "self-serving" [expletive]?  Is this your new meme?  

 

2.  Republicans don't pander to "the rich."  Romney certainly did not.  I'm not sure who you mean by "far right," but I suspect you are referencing evangelicals.  You may have a point there.  I'm still not sure that's the problem (idiots like Akin and Murdoch aside).  

decisions that made them feel confident?  how is that different than a strategy?

1) anyone who feels they can have one position running for governor, then another as governor, then another in the primaries and 'etch a sketch' a position for the general election is 'self serving'  It's all about getting elected.

2)  Then why is how he got rich a 'secret?'   I'd like to see 10 years of tax returns please.   Otherwise they are pandering to the 'club' of how wealth is acquired and retained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

Not at all unreasonable of you.  Some points, though:  

 

1. Raising taxes on "the wealthy" is not a solution.  Even if such increases only affected the rich, and even if they didn't dampen growth, they'd only bring in about 90 billion.  Not even close to what is needed.  

 

2.  Neither China nor foreign investors will "foreclose" on our country.  Frankly, this shows a real lack of understanding on your part about our debt.  The vast majority is held by U.S. investors.  We're selling T Bills to ourselves.  And China is too interdependent to really do anything crazy like dumping their dollar reserves. It would wreck them, too.  

 

3.  It does matter who won.  I'm not saying Romney/Ryan would have been saviors, but they stood a greater chance of getting us back on the right path.  We need the following things to fix this:  

 

• Spending/Size of government cuts.  
• Tax and Regulatory Reform
• Entitlement Reform

• Energy independence
• Overall economic growth through pro-growth polices.  

 

The Romney/Ryan ticket  was unquestionably better in all these areas.  

1.  Nor is trickle down.  I feel the taxes now are unfair, but not overly so.

      The key issue is swearing your allegiance to Grover Norquist, to God, or to the American people... I pick the 3rd.  They have spoken.  

      If your household budget is underwater, you need to both raise revenue and cut spending.  Do you cut your health insurance (Medicaid)? Homeowners insurance (FEMA), and do you think if you give more to your relatives in gifts (tax breaks), they'll give more back to you... I don't think that works... I argue that you keep your safety net till the end... cut your gifts (tax breaks), get new add'l jobs  (taxes), and pay for education and training so the kids can get jobs so they can fend for themselves.  It's pretty simple math.

2.  you are correct.  The key thing is the US has to be a 'partner' and not a 'taker' anymore.  We can't live in a world of economic colonialism.

3.  your opinion on who can correct the problem... If they were, their 'math' would have been front and center.  It wasn't, so it is very much questionable.

Is the reason some people don't recognize their country because the GOP won't stop being stupid, as Jindal says?  

Jindal:  The GOP needs to stop being stupid.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/bobby-jindal-gop_n_2121511.html

20 states petition to secede after Obama reelection

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

There will be plenty of time for analysis about the "why" of last night's election.  Clearly, I was wrong...as were several pundits I have come to respect for their expertise.  Say what you will, Karl Rove and Dick Morris know their jobs and have always delivered accurate results. But I'm sure we will discuss the reason for the outcome later.  

 

What I don't understand is the "how."  How is that we reelected a President who has failed in almost all measures of his job? How is that we reelected a former community organizer with a radical past?  How is it that people voted against an experienced governor and business leader with a sterling personal background, and voted for the guy that ran a small, angry and divisive campaign?  How is it that for the first time since FDR, we re-elected a President with more than 7.3% unemployment?  How is it that the American people ignored Benghazi?  How did we reelect the President when the top concern of voter was the economy and only 4 in 10 said we were on the right track with it?  How were the final national polls off by at least 5%?  How was the anecdotal evidence so wrong?  

 

I honestly don't recognize the country that voted for this man.  I don't recognize a country that voted for pessimism instead of optimism.  I don't recognize a country that voted for More Free Crap™, trillion dollar deficits, and higher taxes.  I don't recognize a country that voted for a man who went overseas and apologized for America...a man who was caught on an open mic essentially telling Vladimir Putin he'd give away the store on missile defense after his last election.  I don't recognize a country that reelected a man who promised skyrocketing energy prices and bankrupt coal companies...and delivered on his promise.  In the America I grew up in, this election wouldn't even have been close.  We had better judgement.  We demanded more of our leaders than "it could have been worse."  We didn't hate business, the rich and oil companies.  We didn't essentially take over auto companies and give them to the unions.  We wouldn't tolerate a President who called his opponent a "bullshitter" and whose campaign all but called his opponent a murderer.  

 

I don't know where this leaves us.  I do know that unlike Michelle Obama, this is the first time I'm not proud of my country.  

Amazing. You've managed to cram almost every single bullshit, discredited, outright false right wing talking point spewed by Fox News, the GOP, and gutter trash right wing blogs, compressed in a drivel of absolute nonsense. With all due respect, people like you is what's wrong with this country. Gullibly swallowing all this nonsense because you want to justify your hatred, not doing any reasonable, rational consideration of any single issue, and living in a dellusional world where you started to drink your own koolaid and that of the people lying to you. 

Oh, and it's not 'your' country. There's 300+ million people in this country. Your post is so full of lies, maybe you should do some self-reflection and try to understand why you're either so willing to believe these lies which have no basis in reality, and so willing to propagate them. There's way too many to list in your post, but here, let me help you out:

- Obama doesn't have a 'radical past'. There's nothing 'radical' about him. Oh, and he's been President for 4 years. That fear-mongering shit didn't work when noone knew him, it wasnt about to work now. 

- His compaign wasn't 'small and angry', certainly not in context of the GOP campaign. The fact that you think so just shows how lacking in objectivity you are, and willing to ignore all negativity and despicable tactics from 'your' side

- ignored Benghazi? You're a hypocrite. Let me guess, you didn't push a shred of blame on Bush for 3,000 americans killed on American soil and the 5,000+ troops killed in a way he directly ordered, yet 4 Americans dead in Libya causes extreme outrage for you and is a massive scandal. Would you have given a shit about this story if there was a republican in office? You know the answer to that. Stop pretending you give a shit now. Because republicans certainly didnt before Obama. Oh, and people ignored the story because they knew it was cynical, political bullshit- and many of the facts that are coming out confirm the conspiracy theories were absolute bullshit. But do you care about facts? Of course not. 

-Obama is a 'pessimist'? Let me guess, in the same breath you mock his 'hope' speeches right? What a twisted version of reality you live in. DO you actually listen to what he says, or is there an imaginary dub in your  brain that translates everything to 'crazy'?

-Obama didnt 'aplogize for America'. This is one of the most pathetic, massive lies of the right and therefore  a perfect fit for your post. Every single fact checking source has said its complete bullshit. 

- Obama doesn't hate business, oil, or the rich. Bring back the taxes on the rich back to the levels of the Clinton administration, in order to help with the debt that you pretend to care so much about (you don't) does not make him a socialist or a communist. Was Clinton a socialist? What extreme garbage. Oh, and taxes havent been raised a penny since Obama has been in office. Fact. I bet you didn't know that, right? 

- The 'anecdotal' evidence wasn't wrong- but you choose to listen and surround yourself with people who were lying to you and cheering for your candidate. 

- Obama's 'takeover' of the auto companies was the best thing that could have happened to them and saved tens of thousands of jobs. They're now more successful than ever and have payed back everything. See, if you DID actually care about jobs you'd say this was a good thing, but you don't, it's another one of the things you pretend to care about only when wanting to score a political point. 

Your post is an example of the misled people in the country who can't think for themselves, and buy every single line given to them, no matter how little truth it contains. Why? Because the people feeding you these lies know that there's an industry of hate, and its clear you're the target audience for your extreme gullibility and propensity for hate. I think you're a hopeless case, but may, just MAYBE you can stop for a second and think how the country could elect someone if they're so radicalized, incompetent, horrible, and hate the country as much as you think they do, in an electoral landslide.  The simple answer is that they wouldn't. Maybe, just maybe there's something wrong with you and the lies you've swallowed, and not the rest of the country. There isn't a single true statement in your entire post, but as long as you continue to live in that dellusional right wing echo-chamber, you dont have an atom's chance of seeing anything objectively.   

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

20 states petition to secede after Obama reelection

Oh my god!

What do we have to expect next?  A threat on our president's life? It's pretty pathetic when people who are on the losing side ( and are in the minority ) try to force the issue. Sheesh!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

What do we have to expect next?  A threat on our president's life? It's pretty pathetic when people who are on the losing side ( and are in the minority ) try to force the issue. Sheesh!

What would lead you from a desire to peacefully secede from the union to a threat on the president's life?

What issue do you believe they are trying to force by seceding?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

What do we have to expect next?  A threat on our president's life? It's pretty pathetic when people who are on the losing side ( and are in the minority ) try to force the issue. Sheesh!

 

What would lead you from a desire to peacefully secede from the union to a threat on the president's life?

 

What issue do you believe they are trying to force by seceding?

I suspect that there are various motives behind it. Undoubtedly some really want it, while others are just trying to make a point about how unhappy they are with the election outcome - the sore loser response. Talk is cheap etc.. In the end it's all just hot air, since it's not going to happen.

Let's hope that no one is upset enough to look for a violent solution to their woes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

 

I suspect that there are various motives behind it. Undoubtedly some really want it, while others are just trying to make a point about how unhappy they are with the election outcome - the sore loser response. Talk is cheap etc.. In the end it's all just hot air, since it's not going to happen.

 

Let's hope that no one is upset enough to look for a violent solution to their woes.

Setting aside probabilities for a moment: Would you support the peaceful secession of one or more states? Do you believe it would be their right? Would you also oppose the use of violence by the federal government of the US in attempting to prevent it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

What do we have to expect next?  A threat on our president's life? It's pretty pathetic when people who are on the losing side ( and are in the minority ) try to force the issue. Sheesh!

 

What would lead you from a desire to peacefully secede from the union to a threat on the president's life?

 

What issue do you believe they are trying to force by seceding?

 

I suspect that there are various motives behind it. Undoubtedly some really want it, while others are just trying to make a point about how unhappy they are with the election outcome - the sore loser response. Talk is cheap etc.. In the end it's all just hot air, since it's not going to happen.

 

Let's hope that no one is upset enough to look for a violent solution to their woes.

Really! This is stupid enough. However like you said since it's not going to happen it's kind of a moot point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

What do we have to expect next?  A threat on our president's life? It's pretty pathetic when people who are on the losing side ( and are in the minority ) try to force the issue. Sheesh!

 

What would lead you from a desire to peacefully secede from the union to a threat on the president's life?

 

What issue do you believe they are trying to force by seceding?

The results of a vote in a national election. They didn't like the results so a small minority is trying to show their dislike of the results. It won't go anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

Really! This is stupid enough. However like you said since it's not going to happen it's kind of a moot point.

I wonder how many people were saying the same thing at the beginnings of the first American secession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

The results of a vote in a national election. They didn't like the results so a small minority is trying to show their dislike of the results.

So they are trying to overturn the results of the election?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

It won't go anywhere.

Maybe. Probably. But, what if?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

Really! This is stupid enough. However like you said since it's not going to happen it's kind of a moot point.

 

I wonder how many people were saying the same thing at the beginnings of the first American secession.

Not as small an amount percentage wise wanting to succeed to be sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

Not as many percentage wise to be sure.

Possibly. But any movement begins with a tiny seed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

 

I suspect that there are various motives behind it. Undoubtedly some really want it, while others are just trying to make a point about how unhappy they are with the election outcome - the sore loser response. Talk is cheap etc.. In the end it's all just hot air, since it's not going to happen.

 

Let's hope that no one is upset enough to look for a violent solution to their woes.

 

Setting aside probabilities for a moment: Would you support the peaceful secession of one or more states? Do you believe it would be their right? Would you also oppose the use of violence by the federal government of the US in attempting to prevent it?

Self-determination is a pretty basic right, and if a significant majority exists to support it, then I see no moral grounds on which to deny it. I don't see it happening though, since national fragmentation only seems to gain widespread support when there are serious issues of tyranny or ethnic abuse and discrimination. Otherwise, economic disadvantages tend to prevail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

Not as many percentage wise to be sure.

 

Possibly. But any movement begins with a tiny seed.

But most tiny seeds die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

Self-determination is a pretty basic right, and if a significant majority exists to support it, then I see no moral grounds on which to deny it.

Well good. What about: Would you also oppose the use of violence by the federal government of the US in attempting to prevent it?

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Originally Posted by muppetry 

I don't see it happening though

I understand that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

But most tiny seeds die.

Should none ever be planted then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

Not as many percentage wise to be sure.

 

Possibly. But any movement begins with a tiny seed.

This is just sour grapes. McCain supporters where saying it was the end of the world last time!

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/209740/take-a-seat-over-there

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

This is just sour grapes.

For some, certainly.

Doesn't make it an invalid idea though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru 

 

 

"It does not take a majority to prevail...but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men."

-- Samuel Adams

And he went on to make a great beer. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

This is just sour grapes.

 

For some, certainly.

 

Doesn't make it an invalid idea though.

That's the great thing about this country. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzguru 

 

 

"It does not take a majority to prevail...but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men."

-- Samuel Adams

 

And he went on to make a great beer. 

We certainly owe him for that.