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I Don't Recognize My Country Anymore - Page 6

post #201 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

When dealing with people.

 

So, if someone comes over to your house and steals your money, there's nothing to complain about?

No absolutes remember?1wink.gif

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #202 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

No absolutes remember.1wink.gif

 

Just checking. Good. I'll let folks know it's okay to come over and take your things. If they happen to slap you around in the process, that shouldn't be a problem either.

 

Now that we have that out of the way: Since there are no absolutes, on what basis can you justify supporting any laws of any kind that force anyone to do anything or stop doing anything?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #203 of 455

What's that sound again?  Oh, yeah...

 

 

WPgnq.jpg

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #204 of 455

Wow. More fun stuff...

 

W.H. Petition Calls for Stripping Citizenship and Exile for Anyone Who Signs Petition to Secede:

 

 

Quote:
A White House petition gathering force calls for citizenship to be stripped and exile for anyone who signs a petition in favor of a state's secession.
 
"Mr. President, please sign an executive order such that each American citizen who signed a petition from any state to secede from the USA shall have their citizenship stripped and be peacefully deported," the full petition reads. 
 
The title of the petition is, "WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO: Strip the Citizenship from Everyone who Signed a Petition to Secede and Exile Them."
 
As of this writing, 2,205 have signed the petition; 22,795 more signatures are needed for the issue to be addressed by the White House.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #205 of 455

I'm right there with you - hard to believe so many incidents were ignored. We will see what Mr. Obama's secret “After My Election I Have More Flexibility'” comment to Putin's aid will produce. It is a sad realization that so many of our fellow Americans will vote for their own narrow - personal -self - interests instead of what might be good for the nation.  This country was founded on individual liberties and individual responsibilities with the idea of limited government staying out of our lives - what has happened ? It is unrecognizable. Like the seagulls in Finding Nemo - "mine - mine - mine"

post #206 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

There are 50,000 comedians out of work in this country and you're telling jokes. You should be ashamed.

Thanks, I'll be here all week. Please tip your waitress.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #207 of 455

Clearly you fail to understand that the US economy was driven into recession by the policies of George Bush Jr. Every politically aware American knows that the problems were so great that it would take years to put right and couldn't be solved within the term of one presidency. Pres. Obama has done the best he could, given that the republican party has stonewalled every attempt to improve the plight of most working class & middle class families and individuals. Time and time again the republicans have shown that they are not fit for office, and the electorate knew this, hence Pres. Obama's re-election.

 

Mitt Romney's failure is the failure of the republican party to find a cohesive political programme, that would get America back to work. The republican party only offered lukewarm support to their candidate, and Mitt Romney's public statements, domestically and internationally, were an unmitigated disaster. Both the rightwing & leftwing of the republican party were openly at war with each other, so contributing to the clear feeling that Romney was the least popular choice; the fact Romney won the presidential nominee vote simply reinforces the lack of quality amongst the other nominees; Romney was the best of a very bad bunch of candidates.

 

Going into the nomination process, there wasn't one individual who stood out. Every republican nominee was intent on attacking the other nominees. In other words, the republican party shot itself in both feet from the get go. The republican party argued for pollicies that had nothing to do with getting either the deficit down and Americans back to work. The republican party failed to send out a clear message that it would hold Wall Street to account for the massive problems it caused. Industrial leaders chose to ignore the ever growing numbers of unemployment, that they willing participated in through adopting policies wholly designed to appease stockholders, increase profits, whilst at the same time destroying huge communities, towns and cities. Multinational industries took no responsibility for the damage they were inflicting on their own people.

 

Can I suggest that you do a little objective research, then you will find all the answers as to why the American electorate voted for Pres. Obama's re-election. And if you've been following the news over the last 7 days, you will have seen a level of corruption and appalling behaviour by leaders of the US military, the CIA etc, none of whom who could be considered democrats in their political leanings. The vast amount of Americans know in their hearts voted for Obama because he stood up and defended the rights of the American people, all Americans whether democrat or republican.

post #208 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToniBryan View Post

Clearly you fail to understand that the US economy was driven into recession by the policies of George Bush Jr. Every politically aware American knows that the problems were so great that it would take years to put right and couldn't be solved within the term of one presidency. Pres. Obama has done the best he could, given that the republican party has stonewalled every attempt to improve the plight of most working class & middle class families and individuals. Time and time again the republicans have shown that they are not fit for office, and the electorate knew this, hence Pres. Obama's re-election.

 

FYI...we've all heard this talking point.

 

 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToniBryan View Post

Clearly you fail to understand that the US economy was driven into recession by the policies of George Bush Jr. Every politically aware American knows that the problems were so great that it would take years to put right and couldn't be solved within the term of one presidency. Pres. Obama has done the best he could, given that the republican party has stonewalled every attempt to improve the plight of most working class & middle class families and individuals. Time and time again the republicans have shown that they are not fit for office, and the electorate knew this, hence Pres. Obama's re-election.

 

Mitt Romney's failure is the failure of the republican party to find a cohesive political programme, that would get America back to work. The republican party only offered lukewarm support to their candidate, and Mitt Romney's public statements, domestically and internationally, were an unmitigated disaster. Both the rightwing & leftwing of the republican party were openly at war with each other, so contributing to the clear feeling that Romney was the least popular choice; the fact Romney won the presidential nominee vote simply reinforces the lack of quality amongst the other nominees; Romney was the best of a very bad bunch of candidates.

 

Going into the nomination process, there wasn't one individual who stood out. Every republican nominee was intent on attacking the other nominees. In other words, the republican party shot itself in both feet from the get go. The republican party argued for pollicies that had nothing to do with getting either the deficit down and Americans back to work. The republican party failed to send out a clear message that it would hold Wall Street to account for the massive problems it caused. Industrial leaders chose to ignore the ever growing numbers of unemployment, that they willing participated in through adopting policies wholly designed to appease stockholders, increase profits, whilst at the same time destroying huge communities, towns and cities. Multinational industries took no responsibility for the damage they were inflicting on their own people.

 

Can I suggest that you do a little objective research, then you will find all the answers as to why the American electorate voted for Pres. Obama's re-election. And if you've been following the news over the last 7 days, you will have seen a level of corruption and appalling behaviour by leaders of the US military, the CIA etc, none of whom who could be considered democrats in their political leanings. The vast amount of Americans know in their hearts voted for Obama because he stood up and defended the rights of the American people, all Americans whether democrat or republican.

 

I'm getting kinda confused by the Obama worshiper's rationale in this election: Did people re-elect Obama because they wanted Obama or because they didn't want Romney. The left seems to be giving off both messages. It's either "Obama won because the Republicans suck" or because "Romney failed to define himself" or because the Republicans didn't put up a good candidate. But none of that seems to add up to a vote for Obama only a vote against something else.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #209 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I'm getting kinda confused by the Obama worshiper's rationale in this election: Did people re-elect Obama because they wanted Obama or because they didn't want Romney. The left seems to be giving off both messages. It's either "Obama won because the Republicans suck" or because "Romney failed to define himself" or because the Republicans didn't put up a good candidate. But none of that seems to add up to a vote for Obama only a vote against something else.

 

I'm pretty sure that you know that the answer to this is the same as for any other election ever held. Some vote affirmatively and some vote negatively, on both sides. Where are you trying to go with this? Other than as an opportunity to write "Obama worshiper" again.

post #210 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

I'm pretty sure that you know that the answer to this is the same as for any other election ever held. Some vote affirmatively and some vote negatively, on both sides. Where are you trying to go with this? Other than as an opportunity to write "Obama worshiper" again.

 

 

I would flip the question and ask how many voted for Mittens because they didn't want Obama?  He wasn't very well-liked during the primaries, Gingrich and the others crucified him.  When Obama used the same stuff later, the Right claimed he was reaching and just attacking.

 

How many petitions for secession have there been, and why would that be?  Did the Right poison the atmosphere by saying Obama was destroying the country?


Edited by Bergermeister - 11/14/12 at 1:23pm

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #211 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinDon View Post

It is a sad realization that so many of our fellow Americans will vote for their own narrow - personal -self - interests instead of what might be good for the nation.

Those horrible selfish people, voting for equality and protection for the vulnerable in society. Horrible people.
Quote:
This country was founded on individual liberties and individual responsibilities with the idea of limited government staying out of our lives - what has happened ? It is unrecognizable.

My country was founded on a shared fear of Vikings. What's happened to it? In the last election, not a single party ran on an anti-Viking ticket. Shocking.
post #212 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinDon View Post

It is a sad realization that so many of our fellow Americans will vote for their own narrow - personal -self - interests instead of what might be good for the nation.

Those horrible selfish people, voting for equality and protection for the vulnerable in society. Horrible people.
Quote:
This country was founded on individual liberties and individual responsibilities with the idea of limited government staying out of our lives - what has happened ? It is unrecognizable.

My country was founded on a shared fear of Vikings. What's happened to it? In the last election, not a single party ran on an anti-Viking ticket. Shocking.

 

I really do miss Screaming Lord Sutch.

post #213 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Why is that obvious?

 

Do you really think there is any realistic chance of secession happening any time in the near future?  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well the differences here are for one thing they're on a different continent from the Government.

 

So now you're advocating that they leave yet another government on the same continent because they feel oppressed. Well when it even gets to a third of the country let me know. And hey if they're unhappy nothing's stopping this small band from leaving and setting up camp somewhere else just like those colonists did.1wink.gif

 

1.  I don't see how the geography makes any difference whatsoever.  

 

2.  So they shouldn't be "allowed" to secede because it happened once before?  I guess it's like a one-time get out jail free card?  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #214 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Do you really think there is any realistic chance of secession happening any time in the near future? 

 

No, not really. I was just wondering why you thought it was obvious.

 

My main hope is that this "movement" might start a conversation on the subject.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #215 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

No, not really. I was just wondering why you thought it was obvious.

 

My main hope is that this "movement" might start a conversation on the subject.

 

Got it.  I just meant "obvious" in the sense that there is no realistic chance of it happening anytime soon.  That much seems obvious to me. 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #216 of 455

Part of the problem is you only see the truth you want to see. You forget things like when Republican House leader Mitch McConnell the day after Obama was elected the first time was asked what Republicans would do now that Obama had won. Instead of saying something like we are going to work with the new President to help dig our country out of this economic mess, he said Republicans are going to do everything in their power to make sure he is only a one term President. He meant it as Republicans largely influenced by the Tea Party simply refused to work with Democrats and even more Moderate members of the Republican Party to cooperate on passing meaningful legislation. The Republicans didn't want Obama to perform well or improve the economy because that would make it harder to beat him. Yet, Obama still managed to pass some meaningful legislation. 

 

Moreover, in my mind the Republican Party biggest problem was they simply refused to allow the Bush era tax cuts to expire as they were intended to do even though they were proven to not create any jobs. This despite taxes being lower than anytime in our Country's history. The Republicans filibustered everything to keep those tax breaks in effect for the top two percent wage earners. To get any other sort of legislation, Obama had to agree to let the top two percent to keep their what was supposed to be temporary tax relief. That is not cooperation or compromise. 

 

Moreover, Romney was not a great candidate. He subscribed to the same trickle down theory of economics that has been destroying our country. Namely, make the rich richer and maybe they will spend some money on the rest of us. When the adverse is actually what works. Further, he flip flopped on everything and refused to participate in a tradition his father started. Namely, release his tax returns. His investment company essentially operated the same way Carl Ichan operates. Namely, buy a company and squeeze a profit out of it dam the consequences.

post #217 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

 

Obama has the government spending one out of every four dollars in the economy. The government borrows one out of three dollars it spends. All of this happens to give us less than two percent economic growth. The numbers for sustaining these actions do not add up nor do the benefits received for the actions taken add up.

 

Conservatives are left scratching their head at the response to the false outrage. The man borrows $5 trillion dollars and you're really worried about someone outlawing your contraception when no one is claiming or demanding such a thing is a good example of that.

 

Perhaps the false fears and outrages shut off enough brains, but the real fear, the fiscal cliff, hasn't gone away nor is the path to avert it becoming any easier. Screaming vagina over and over doesn't change the facts.

 

 

Yes, but you miss the whole story. First let us look at the Bush tax cuts that were supposed to temporary. They were sold to us under the premise that giving the rich so called job creators more money would help them create more jobs. Yet, instead we have lost 2.1 million jobs since the temporary tax breaks were granted. So, the tax breaks haven't worked to create jobs. More importantly, they have in part contributed to the situation you describe. Namely, they have deprived the government of money that is needed and in return the government has to borrow. The whole reason we have a fiscal cliff situation at all is because the tea party candidates simply refused to compromise on allowing the tax breaks to expire on the top two percent of the wage earners. In fact, go back over the last four years and every time democrats wanted to pass any legislation even unrelated to taxes, Republicans used the Bush Tax cuts for the top two percent  as leverage. The Tea Party filibustered practically everything. 

 

Second, Obama came into office with an expensive war on two fronts. The war on Iraq Obama was a critic of at its inception because as was later shown, Saddam had nothing to do with 9-11 nor did he have any serious weapons to worry about. Nonetheless, Bush committed the US to finishing up business there (and paying for it).

 

People automatically associate Republicans with conservatism. However, even Reagan recognized the need to raise taxes when the times called for it. The new tea party inspired brand of Republicans is anything but conservative. Obama on the other hand is a moderate. That is where you need to be to try and get things done. 

 

With all that said, the Country's economic problems can be traced back to the passage of NAFTA. Prior to NAFTA, the US charged import taxes on products from Countries like China that had an unfair trade advantage. Since the beginning of our Country, these taxes protected products manufactured in the US and other similar situated economies. The taxes from jobs funded both the federal and local governments. The economy prior to NAFTA was great. Life was good. After NAFTA, goods made in places like China were allowed to freely pass through Canada and Mexico thereby escaping import taxes even though China has an unfair trade advantage in that is both subsidizes its materials and labor force. 

post #218 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I was starting a thread along these lines but double-checked before hitting submit and saw this thread. I figure this is as good a place as any for it.

 

So the election is over. While some may be crowing about a candidate winning or losing, about the predictions of this or that pundit, there is still the day to day reality to deal with and I figured this thread would be as good a place as any to start on that.

 

So my thoughts on the election. First some will crow about Nate Silver but as I quoted from an article critical of him, he did no better than the simple aggregation models posted by most other sites. His site, when it wasn't owned by the NY Times, would have slammed all those pollsters who spent months on end showing Obama ahead by 4-5+% and then somehow "magically" tightening it up to a more accurate result at the end. That Nate Silver doesn't exist anymore though and he won't waste time with his pollster rankings because he would have to throw several pollsters under the bus. Clearly the turnout for the election wasn't historic and didn't match the 2008 turnout model either. Obama took fewer states, and had a lower win percentage. In that way he is negatively historic because he is the first president to win reelection while shrinking the coalition that elected him.

 

So now some people will say folks like myself are wrong and they are correct in regard to the outcome of the election. I guess I'm just too much of an optimist. There was plenty of talk among the conservatives about the American people not hitting the accelerator when speeding toward a cliff or about what would get drunk out of a bar. While I may have been to optimistic about Republican poll outcomes, the numbers for financial outcomes can't be denied. Also is it really delusional or crazy to not want to believe a decent percentage of your countrymen and their votes are bought and paid for by EITC, food stamps, Obamaphones (lifeline phone service), Section 8 housing and so on? Is it delusional to believe people want to stand on their own two feet rather than just wait for an income transfer payment of some sort?

 

Obama has the government spending one out of every four dollars in the economy. The government borrows one out of three dollars it spends. All of this happens to give us less than two percent economic growth. The numbers for sustaining these actions do not add up nor do the benefits received for the actions taken add up.

 

Conservatives are left scratching their head at the response to the false outrage. The man borrows $5 trillion dollars and you're really worried about someone outlawing your contraception when no one is claiming or demanding such a thing is a good example of that.

 

Perhaps the false fears and outrages shut off enough brains, but the real fear, the fiscal cliff, hasn't gone away nor is the path to avert it becoming any easier. Screaming vagina over and over doesn't change the facts.

 

The American people, by a very small majority, buy the bad math. However it's the same people that swore housing prices never drop, that P/E ratios don't matter because it's an internet stock. This is partially why I've argued it is a generational issue because you see the same people buy the same lies over and over again. The rules don't matter. This time is different. You can really get something for nothing. There doesn't need to be a real plan or real actions for prosperity, just good intentions and for everyone to buy the same lie. It really doesn't matter what they use to buy the lie. The lie reveals itself and the price will be paid. Everything reverts to the mean. You borrow $5 trillion and owe $15 trillion to avoid economic pain, that pain will come back with interest. There's no denying that, just neat tricks to push it past the election.

 

I suspect the rest of this year will feature a metric crap-load of bad news. The debt ceiling has been reached. I'm sure we will have some "revised" job numbers. The media might finally let some the bad news with regard to the Middle East out of the bag.

 

I'm sure it will be lots of fun for everyone.

Your problem. Europe is following the conservatives' policy agendas and are into a double-dip recession, whereas the US is growing. The debt is an issue but debt incurred to expand production is useful debt. Debt used to bailout the rich who make nothing but money caused the problems in the first place. If the Republicans had got their way, we would have 25% or 30% unemployment, like Greece, Portugal, Spain. They are all going down the tubes big time. Within two years, the US (and Canada, which didn't allow the banks and mortgage and other moneyed interests to rule supreme), and the UK (which is not part of the euro), will be the only Western countries on anything close to a financial footing. 

 

Your can't cut yourself into prosperity, which is what the Europeans are doing, all to protect the debt holders. But the debt holders of European are holding worthless currency because the Europeans are cutting the work that produces the product buys the goods that people who have income can buy. No work, no product, no income, no buy, no economy. 

 

We do have a big problem however, which Obama probably cannot handle because he is powerless to do so (likely because the masses like you are as thoroughly clueless as you've been trained to be). The US economy is 40% financial industry. Financial industries are not productive; they do nothing and they make nothing, and trade money instruments for other money instruments and acquire money instruments which have no more value than Las Vegas chips. When the US was on firm footing, the financial industry varied between 5 and 10% of the GDP, and taxes on the rich were very high. High taxes on the rich prevented them from making money on money and not on productive activities. Real businesses that make stuff and do real work as services have ROIs of 3-5%; money changers make 10% - 20% at least; they bet on debt and speculation and create wealth by creating a bubble economy. 

 

We have a bubble economy to the tune of about 40% of our GDP. The financial bailout was an attempt to keep the roof of the economy from collapsing giving time new foundation and walls to be built to hold the roof up. This is what FDR did also. The foundations and walls are being built at the rate of about 1-2% a year -- that is the actual productive capacity of the US -- on average over the life of the US, the average economic growth is 3%. We are not there because the moneyed interests shipped the real production overseas. The US simply has far less capacity to increase its growth rate. As Europe collapses we may be able to pick up that slack, especially if we open our borders to the skilled Europeans who will by necessity emigrate to the US for a better life and replace lazy Americans who have no skills except to whine about how everything isn't free - a repeat of the emigration of Europeans from Germany, Italy, Poland, Russia, Spain, etc caused by anti-intellectual attacks by the Nazis and Communists in the 20's and 30's. 

 

We are no where out of the woods yet, and the Republicans and their apologists are going to double down on destroying whatever is left of the real US economic system, replacing it with money changers. Romney, he's your guy, if groveling to him and his ilk is your thing. 

post #219 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Your problem. Europe is following the conservatives' policy agendas and are into a double-dip recession, whereas the US is growing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

If the Republicans had got their way, we would have 25% or 30% unemployment, like Greece, Portugal, Spain.

 

Your can't cut yourself into prosperity, which is what the Europeans are doing, all to protect the debt holders. But the debt holders of European are holding worthless currency because the Europeans are cutting the work that produces the product buys the goods that people who have income can buy. No work, no product, no income, no buy, no economy. 

 

Total bullshit. You should slap whoever has told you this lie. And then slap your self for believing it.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

The debt is an issue but debt incurred to expand production is useful debt.

 

True. But that has nothing to do with the national deficit or debt. Nothing at all.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

We do have a big problem however, which Obama probably cannot handle because he is powerless to do so (likely because the masses like you are as thoroughly clueless as you've been trained to be).

 

Based on your first claims, it is you that is clueless.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Financial industries are not productive; they do nothing and they make nothing, and trade money instruments for other money instruments and acquire money instruments which have no more value than Las Vegas chips.

 

And yet more evidence that you have no idea what the **** you're talking about.

 

1eek.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #220 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Your problem. Europe is following the conservatives' policy agendas and are into a double-dip recession, whereas the US is growing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

If the Republicans had got their way, we would have 25% or 30% unemployment, like Greece, Portugal, Spain.

 

Your can't cut yourself into prosperity, which is what the Europeans are doing, all to protect the debt holders. But the debt holders of European are holding worthless currency because the Europeans are cutting the work that produces the product buys the goods that people who have income can buy. No work, no product, no income, no buy, no economy. 

 

Total bullshit. You should slap whoever has told you this lie. And then slap your self for believing it.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

The debt is an issue but debt incurred to expand production is useful debt.

 

True. But that has nothing to do with the national deficit or debt. Nothing at all.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

We do have a big problem however, which Obama probably cannot handle because he is powerless to do so (likely because the masses like you are as thoroughly clueless as you've been trained to be).

 

Based on your first claims, it is you that is clueless.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Financial industries are not productive; they do nothing and they make nothing, and trade money instruments for other money instruments and acquire money instruments which have no more value than Las Vegas chips.

 

And yet more evidence that you have no idea what the **** you're talking about.

 

1eek.gif

 

And yet you presented absolutely nothing to refute his arguments. Pure ad hominem attack.

post #221 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Your problem. Europe is following the conservatives' policy agendas and are into a double-dip recession, whereas the US is growing. 

 

Let's just stop there, because it disqualifies every other point you make.  You are actually arguing that conservative policies have plunged Europe into a double dip recession.  That's it...you don't get to participate any more.  Anyone who looks at Europe's failed socialist experiment and concludes it's conservative policies that are the problem ought to have his head examined.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #222 of 455
Ignorance abounds.

Fact: the countries currently following the most socialist strategies in Europe are thriving.

Fact: the countries currently following the most conservative strategies in Europe are collapsing.

Denial of these facts just makes you look like you simply don't care what the truth is. You are willfully ignorant.
post #223 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Ignorance abounds.
Fact: the countries currently following the most socialist strategies in Europe are thriving.
Fact: the countries currently following the most conservative strategies in Europe are collapsing.
Denial of these facts just makes you look like you simply don't care what the truth is. You are willfully ignorant.

 

Wow.  The intellectual dishonesty is astounding.  Tell me, tonton:  How long have they been following these "conservative" strategies?  Did those strategies cause the current problems, or were they implemented as a result of the crises?  What are those "conservative strategies?"  Did they cut taxes and regulation?  Did they implement more pro-business policies?  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #224 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Ignorance abounds.

Fact: the countries currently following the most socialist strategies in Europe are thriving.

Fact: the countries currently following the most conservative strategies in Europe are collapsing.

Denial of these facts just makes you look like you simply don't care what the truth is. You are willfully ignorant.

Wow.  The intellectual dishonesty is astounding.  Tell me, tonton:  How long have they been following these "conservative" strategies?  Did those strategies cause the current problems, or were they implemented as a result of the crises?  What are those "conservative strategies?"  Did they cut taxes and regulation?  Did they implement more pro-business policies?  

They have been cutting spending since before Obama came into office. That's as conservative as it gets, and it's exactly what the conservatives are calling for in the US. But the problem is, those spending cuts made things worse, and now it's too late to avoid anything but more spending cuts and tax increases. Greece had a way out, which would have been to stimulate the economy by empowering the people, not the businesses. Instead, they stifled it. The public is now rioting because of those spending cuts. Hmm... I wonder what might happen if they give businesses and the rich tax cuts on top of those spending cuts.

I suggest you do a little research into the source of the Greek crisis. The problem was tax loopholes and loose tax enforcement that allowed the rich and businesses to avoid taxes completely. Sound like exactly the situation you think is good for an economy.
post #225 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


They have been cutting spending since before Obama came into office. 

 

 

And what were their policies before that?  Does that matter?  

 

 

Quote:
That's as conservative as it gets, 

 

So you admit it...liberals never support spending cuts.  Ever.  

 

 

Quote:
and it's exactly what the conservatives are calling for in the US.

 

Not really.  Even if so, we're dealing with massive deficits unprecedented in human history.  You don't think this is a concern?  

 

 

 

Quote:
But the problem is, those spending cuts made things worse, and now it's too late to avoid anything but more spending cuts and tax increases.

 

I don't know whether they are making things worse.  Depending on where the money is spent, they might be.  But why does that mean they can't avoid more cuts?  Why do taxes have to go up?  Let me ask:  Would you support a massive tax cut financed by deficits?  

 

 

 

Quote:
Greece had a way out, which would have been to stimulate the economy by empowering the people, not the businesses. Instead, they stifled it.

 

LOL.  I can't wait to hear about "empowering people."  Please...do tell.  

 

 

 

Quote:
The public is now rioting because of those spending cuts. Hmm... I wonder what might happen if they give businesses and the rich tax cuts on top of those spending cuts.
I suggest you do a little research into the source of the Greek crisis. The problem was tax loopholes and loose tax enforcement that allowed the rich and businesses to avoid taxes completely. Sound like exactly the situation you think is good for an economy.

 

Wow, tonton.  No, the problem wast that Greece spent like there was no tomorrow.  They built an entitlement society with huge benefits, and now they are bankrupt as a result.  You want a way out....you don't mind deficit spending?  Here it is:  Cut taxes for everyone...cut them big time.  Also reduce government spending to keep deficits manageable until growth is sufficient to return temporary lost revenue.  

 

There are only two paths here, tonton:  1)  Growth and 2) Death by Government.  You clearly favor the latter.  

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post #226 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Part of the problem is you only see the truth you want to see. You forget things like when Republican House leader Mitch McConnell the day after Obama was elected the first time was asked what Republicans would do now that Obama had won. Instead of saying something like we are going to work with the new President to help dig our country out of this economic mess, he said Republicans are going to do everything in their power to make sure he is only a one term President. He meant it as Republicans largely influenced by the Tea Party simply refused to work with Democrats and even more Moderate members of the Republican Party to cooperate on passing meaningful legislation. The Republicans didn't want Obama to perform well or improve the economy because that would make it harder to beat him. Yet, Obama still managed to pass some meaningful legislation.

 

Do you see that severe downward spike in the S&P?

That was the day George W Bush left office.

 

Yep, Obama is bad for business! /s

700

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post #227 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Your problem. Europe is following the conservatives' policy agendas and are into a double-dip recession, whereas the US is growing. 

 

Let's just stop there, because it disqualifies every other point you make.  You are actually arguing that conservative policies have plunged Europe into a double dip recession.  That's it...you don't get to participate any more.  Anyone who looks at Europe's failed socialist experiment and concludes it's conservative policies that are the problem ought to have his head examined.  

 

This brings up an interesting point. Setting aside whether Europe can be categorized as a failed experiment, the "socialist" label deserves some exploration that may shed light on some of the differing views. Are there any national governments anywhere that hardcore Republicans would consider to be conservative, or are the rest of the world's democracies almost exclusively socialist by their standards?


Edited by muppetry - 11/15/12 at 7:48pm
post #228 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

This brings up an interesting point. Setting aside whether Europe can be categorized as a failed experiment, the "socialist" label deserves some exploration that may shed light on some of the differing views. Are there any national governments anywhere that hardcore Republicans would consider to be conservative, or are the rest of the worlds democracies almost exclusively socialist by their standards?

Oh no don't open that can of worms. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan and all the other 'stans, Ukraine, Russia, Turkey, Egypt, and all the recent North African revolutionary governments sudo-democracies. Even Israel is pretty conservative although when you meet the younger generation traveling throughout Latin America they are generally a raucous bunch of partiers. Most of the semi-democratic countries of Southeast Asia are considered very conservative as well.

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post #229 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

This brings up an interesting point. Setting aside whether Europe can be categorized as a failed experiment, the "socialist" label deserves some exploration that may shed light on some of the differing views. Are there any national governments anywhere that hardcore Republicans would consider to be conservative, or are the rest of the worlds democracies almost exclusively socialist by their standards?

Oh no don't open that can of worms. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan and all the other 'stans, Ukraine, Russia, Turkey, Egypt, and all the recent North African revolutionary governments sudo-democracies. Even Israel is pretty conservative although when you meet the younger generation traveling throughout Latin America they are generally a raucous bunch of partiers. Most of the semi-democratic countries of Southeast Asia are considered very conservative as well.

 

No can of worms intended. And I realize that some of the more emerging democracies look fairly right-wing - I was mostly thinking of the established 1st world democracies.

post #230 of 455

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

Are there any national governments anywhere that hardcore Republicans would consider to be conservative, or are the rest of the worlds democracies almost exclusively socialist by their standards?

For the most part of the Western  world, I'd think so. In Germany, the ruling conservative party CDU (Christian Democratic Union) has moved more and more to the middle of the political spectrum in recent years under chancellor Merkel. By Republican standards, they would probably be considered more of a socialist party than Obama of being a socialist. That may be one of the reason why Obama is so popular in Germany and Europe in general (a poll had him at rougly 80 percent, Romney at 20 percent). 

 

The difference in how people view the role of the government in Germany and in the US really is baffling to me, though. I grew up in a country that takes care of its people. If you can't find work, the government pays for an apartment and a monthly wage to buy groceries. And everyone gets a health insurance, no matter their financial situation. While there are certainly people who impose on this help for years and years, I personally think the general idea is great. It's a safety net I hope I won't ever need but I feel much more secure knowing I'm not going to live on the streets when hell breaks loose in my life for whatever reason. The general perception here is: The government is there to help me when I'm in need. When I'm doing fine, I'm happy to pay taxes to uphold this system I may have taken advantage of in the past. I think that's wonderful. And despite what looks like a big influence (and a big spending) of the government, Germany is doing just fine.

 

While I certainly don't know the day-to-day politics in the US, my overall impression from the outside was Obama did a good job in the past four years. George W. Bush and the Republicans left him with two wars on hand, a huge deficit and thus caused the biggest financial crisis since the 1920s. Moreover, the Democrats are more forward-thinking on several topics, e.g. abortion, gay marriage and green energy. Most of Europe is happy Obama got reelected and so am I. 

post #231 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex101 View Post

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

Are there any national governments anywhere that hardcore Republicans would consider to be conservative, or are the rest of the worlds democracies almost exclusively socialist by their standards?

For the most part of the Western  world, I'd think so. In Germany, the ruling conservative party CDU (Christian Democratic Union) has moved more and more to the middle of the political spectrum in recent years under chancellor Merkel. By Republican standards, they would probably be considered more of a socialist party than Obama of being a socialist. That may be one of the reason why Obama is so popular in Germany and Europe in general (a poll had him at rougly 80 percent, Romney at 20 percent). 

 

The difference in how people view the role of the government in Germany and in the US really is baffling to me, though. I grew up in a country that takes care of its people. If you can't find work, the government pays for an apartment and a monthly wage to buy groceries. And everyone gets a health insurance, no matter their financial situation. While there are certainly people who impose on this help for years and years, I personally think the general idea is great. It's a safety net I hope I won't ever need but I feel much more secure knowing I'm not going to live on the streets when hell breaks loose in my life for whatever reason. The general perception here is: The government is there to help me when I'm in need. When I'm doing fine, I'm happy to pay taxes to uphold this system I may have taken advantage of in the past. I think that's wonderful. And despite what looks like a big influence (and a big spending) of the government, Germany is doing just fine.

 

While I certainly don't know the day-to-day politics in the US, my overall impression from the outside was Obama did a good job in the past four years. George W. Bush and the Republicans left him with two wars on hand, a huge deficit and thus caused the biggest financial crisis since the 1920s. Moreover, the Democrats are more forward-thinking on several topics, e.g. abortion, gay marriage and green energy. Most of Europe is happy Obama got reelected and so am I. 

 

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the perspective. The safety net philosophy that you describe is something of an anathema to the right wing of US politics so you may get some less than favorable comments, but sensitivities are definitely raised over here right now.

post #232 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the perspective. The safety net philosophy that you describe is something of an anathema to the right wing of US politics so you may get some less than favorable comments, but sensitivities are definitely raised over here right now.

Thanks. This European perspective was what I was going for. Well, from what I understand Americans have to largely take care of a safety net themselves, e.g. obtain an unemployment insurance (that's a tax of three percent on your monthly salary in Germany). But if you barely make enough to survive, I guess you aren't able to build up a safety net on your own, are you? It's very wishful thinking that each and everyone can fullfil their American dream to take care of those issues, especially in these tough times. With 50 million people living on food stamps, there's some hard evidence for that.

 

What really got to me was a documentary about a man in his 60s. He was diagnosed with cancer but didn't have any health insurance. Consequently, he was unable to pay the medical bills for the treatment and, after much suffering, passed away two years later. I don't think that's fair. I think that's cruel and not worthy of a country like the US or any Western civilization for that matter. It's interesting that Republicans cherish their faith which includes the spirit of charity, yet they seem very selfish and self-absorbed on those topics. I don't want to blame anyone, but it appears conflicting to me.

 

As for Europe being a failed experiment: There's no doubt it's a difficult time for countries like Greece and Spain but I don't think it's down to socialist politics. I'd agree with tonton, the major problems in the past were the tax loopholes and the loose tax enforcement. Also, probably as a consequence, they weren't able to build up a strong and competitive economy but relied too much on tourism and small business. It's an individual problem of the country, not the result of socialist politics by any means, though. Countries like Austria, France or Germany are doing okay, even with their socialist politics by Republican standards.

post #233 of 455
Quote:
Wow, tonton.  No, the problem wast that Greece spent like there was no tomorrow.  They built an entitlement society with huge benefits, and now they are bankrupt as a result.  You want a way out....you don't mind deficit spending?  Here it is:  Cut taxes for everyone...cut them big time.  Also reduce government spending to keep deficits manageable until growth is sufficient to return temporary lost revenue.  


http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-crisis-has-yet-to-hit-the-wealthiest-greeks-a-866693.html

 

You might learn a little.

 

Quote:
"Greece is a poor country with very rich people," Finance Minister Yannis Stournaras recently said. And philanthropy, though a Greek word, is not widespread in practice. Members of the country's upper crust continue to exploit all the loopholes the government offers them. Indeed, the state makes it remarkably easy for them to do so: For a full year now, the government has been announcing that a treaty with Switzerland aiming to put an end to tax evasion is "just about to be concluded." But it has yet to be signed.

 

Sounds EXTREMELY American to me.

post #234 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post
What are those "conservative strategies?"  Did they cut taxes and regulation?  Did they implement more pro-business policies?  

 

"The Greek government can no longer pay its bills and owes private-sector companies some €9 billion. But even now, three years into the crisis, it continues to exempt commercial shipping companies, which make up its most successful industrial sector, from all taxes. This relief for the rich just puts more of a burden on the poor."

 

Pro-business policies, did you ask?

post #235 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

This brings up an interesting point. Setting aside whether Europe can be categorized as a failed experiment, the "socialist" label deserves some exploration that may shed light on some of the differing views. Are there any national governments anywhere that hardcore Republicans would consider to be conservative, or are the rest of the world's democracies almost exclusively socialist by their standards?

 

That is a good question, though I don't know exactly who you mean by "hardcore Republicans."  The majority of 1st world democracies are closer to socialism than the United States.  In my opinion, this is one reason the United States has (or had) the economic power it does.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-crisis-has-yet-to-hit-the-wealthiest-greeks-a-866693.html

 

You might learn a little.

 

 

Sounds EXTREMELY American to me.

 

 

I don't see where you're going there.  I'm not defending Greece's tax policies, nor am I defending policies where the rich pay much less than the poor (or nothing at all).   What I'm saying is that confiscatory tax rates in general combined with massive social/other spending are a recipe for disaster.  This is a basic principle...money is best spent by the people, not the government.  Capital is more productive in the private sector.  

 

That doesn't mean we cast aside the safety net, all government, etc.  But it does mean accepting the truth, which is that government does not create resources...it consumes them.  This even applies to what I do as an educator.  I am a staunch supporter of public education. It has many benefits, including indirect economic benefits to society in "producing" productive members of society.  But the reality is that we directly consume resources.  We cost money.  That money comes from the taxpayer...from private society.  

 

What you seem to be arguing is that we should just collect everyone's earnings and then redistribute them.  And if that wasn't ridiculous enough, you're arguing this produces better economic results than other systems.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #236 of 455

Americans voted for good over evil, for God over Satan, for love over hate, for charity over greed.  That is why Obama won.

post #237 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

What you seem to be arguing is that we should just collect everyone's earnings and then redistribute them.  And if that wasn't ridiculous enough, you're arguing this produces better economic results than other systems.  

Germany's economy is as strong as ever, despite being socialist from your standpoint. We are only second to China in exports, the unemployment is down to five percent and we are aiming for a balanced budget in 2013. What you're so courageously arguing against does work for some countries, you know. 

post #238 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex101 View Post

Germany's economy is as strong as ever, despite being socialist from your standpoint. We are only second to China in exports, the unemployment is down to five percent and we are aiming for a balanced budget in 2013. What you're so courageously arguing against does work for some countries, you know. 

 

German's economy is not anywhere near as "socialist" as nations like France, Spain and the UK.  And Germany has taken a completely different road than tonton is suggesting.  They've implemented more conservative policies, which is why you're seeing those results.  

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post #239 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

Americans voted for good over evil, for God over Satan, for love over hate, for charity over greed.  That is why Obama won.

 

I have no doubt that this is exactly how much of the left sees it. And we have several on the left claiming it is the right that is detached from reality. How ironic.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #240 of 455
Quote:

I don't see where you're going there.  I'm not defending Greece's tax policies, nor am I defending policies where the rich pay much less than the poor (or nothing at all).   What I'm saying is that confiscatory tax rates in general combined with massive social/other spending are a recipe for disaster.  This is a basic principle...money is best spent by the people, not the government.  Capital is more productive in the private sector. 

 

 

The overall level of taxation in the U.S. relative to GDP is at a historic low point, not a historic high. Therefore, the claim that taxes are dragging the economy down are not based in reality. If anything, the U.S. should have proven the theory that low taxes equals a robust economy...and it obviously didn't. Also, European countries like Spain and Ireland were set up exactly the way conservatives in the U.S. claim is preventative to financial difficulty: pro-business policy (i.e. low taxes and low regulation) and a relatively low level of public debt vs. GDP. However, both Spain and Ireland did not escape any of the severe financial and employment problems of Europe following the real estate collapse and financial meltdown in 2008/2009. Thus, low public debt is not really an essential element of economic health. Japan proves that point. Their debt level relative to GDP is more than twice what exists in the U.S., and yet unemployment in Japan is below 5% and their credit rating has yet to be lowered. 

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