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I Don't Recognize My Country Anymore - Page 12

post #441 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:

You're kidding, right?

 

Did you fail third grade economics?

 

Why don't you tell me what increased demand (and plenty of supply capacity) usually do to price?

 

Then I can tell you why it doesn't happen in the US (but it happens in Canada).

 

Lobbyists, corruption, quid pro status quo.

 

There is not "plenty" of capacity.  In the US we are already seeing drug shortages at times.  Demand has exploded, and supply has not.  Prices of brand name drugs have skyrocketed.  This is what happens when you have ads for drugs to treat Restless Leg Syndrome and Chronic Dry Eyes and I Want to Bone My Wife Harder & Longer Syndrome.  People go to their doctors and get scrips and use their insurance plans to the extreme.  Hence, higher prices and higher premiums.  Did you fail third grade economics?  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

They have that system in Canada. The rich people who want to cut in line can always go to the US for treatment. And they do. Let them.

 

But yeah, I think the Hong Kong/Swiss/German/Austrian/Dutch/Scandinavian/Spanish/French/British system is better than the Canadian system. Canada's problem, however, is not enough doctors, due to the draw of insane profits if they practice in the US. The broken system in the US is contributing to the Canadian problem.

 

Let me ask, then:  What happens when there is no U.S. system?

 

 

Not too long ago two friends of mine were talking to a Cuban refugee, a businessman who had escaped from Castro, and in the midst of his story one of my friends turned to the other and said, "We don't know how lucky we are." And the Cuban stopped and said, "How lucky you are! I had someplace to escape to." In that sentence he told us the entire story. If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth.

 

Ronald Reagan

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #442 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
You're kidding, right?

Did you fail third grade economics?

Why don't you tell me what increased demand (and plenty of supply capacity) usually do to price?

Then I can tell you why it doesn't happen in the US (but it happens in Canada).

Lobbyists, corruption, quid pro status quo.

There is not "plenty" of capacity.  In the US we are already seeing drug shortages at times.  Demand has exploded, and supply has not.  Prices of brand name drugs have skyrocketed.  This is what happens when you have ads for drugs to treat Restless Leg Syndrome and Chronic Dry Eyes and I Want to Bone My Wife Harder & Longer Syndrome.  People go to their doctors and get scrips and use their insurance plans to the extreme.  Hence, higher prices and higher premiums.  Did you fail third grade economics?  
There are several problems with your claim:
1) Supply can be artificially restricted to maintain high prices.
2) The synthesis of most of these high-priced drugs is simply a matter of mixing chemicals that are themselves in abundant supply. Capacity could easily be increased if the drug companies wanted to.
3) The price for generic drugs is way lower.
4) The price for brand name drugs is much lower outside of the US.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

They have that system in Canada. The rich people who want to cut in line can always go to the US for treatment. And they do. Let them.

But yeah, I think the Hong Kong/Swiss/German/Austrian/Dutch/Scandinavian/Spanish/French/British system is better than the Canadian system. Canada's problem, however, is not enough doctors, due to the draw of insane profits if they practice in the US. The broken system in the US is contributing to the Canadian problem.

Let me ask, then:  What happens when there is no U.S. system?
Um... Let me see... First, Canadian doctors stop going to the US to practice where profits are higher. They earn less, stay in Canada, and Canada suddenly has enough capacity to support both public and private health care systems. See how easy that was?
Quote:
Not too long ago two friends of mine were talking to a Cuban refugee, a businessman who had escaped from Castro, and in the midst of his story one of my friends turned to the other and said, "We don't know how lucky we are." And the Cuban stopped and said, "How lucky you are! I had someplace to escape to." In that sentence he told us the entire story. If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth.


Ronald Reagan

Freedom to prosper at the expense of others. You must be so proud.
Edited by tonton - 11/26/12 at 8:14pm
post #443 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Um... Let me see... First, Canadian doctors stop going to the US to practice where profits are higher. They earn less, stay in Canada, and Canada suddenly has enough capacity to support both public and private health care systems. See how easy that was?
Freedom to prosper at the expense of others. You must be so proud.

 

This can't be a serious reply. You are an American national working and living abroad and you claim the solution is for Canada to deny their citizens the very right you enjoy. They are to be restricted to make their earnings and thus quality of life, LOWER, all to solve a government problem.

 

You then post a quote about prospering at the expense of others, like all the people who would limit the rights of those doctors would be doing, right?

 

You've clearly gone off the deep end. Why even pay them at all? If you just enslave them then think about how much more affordable health care might be!!! They aren't people. They are just numbers to add up to make your good intentions a reality.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #444 of 455
Oh my god. The "whoosh" was audible from 6000 miles across the Pacific.

I didn't say Canada should stop their citizens from going abroad. I said the US should get a handle on insane profiteering.
post #445 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh my god. The "whoosh" was audible from 6000 miles across the Pacific.

I didn't say Canada should stop their citizens from going abroad. I said the US should get a handle on insane profiteering.

 

How do you propose to stop Canadian doctors from doing this?

 

First, Canadian doctors stop going to the US to practice where profits are higher. They earn less, stay in Canada, and Canada suddenly has enough capacity to support both public and private health care systems. See how easy that was?

 

Your answer to everything else is REGULATION, REGULATION, REGULATION. How does your statement happen if not by regulation? You've just designated the U.S. medical system as engaging in INSANE PROFITEERING. How do you propose to stop Canadian doctors from pursuing what you have deemed unjust and irrational profiteering?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #446 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh my god. The "whoosh" was audible from 6000 miles across the Pacific.


I didn't say Canada should stop their citizens from going abroad. I said the US should get a handle on insane profiteering.

How do you propose to stop Canadian doctors from doing this?

First, Canadian doctors stop going to the US to practice where profits are higher. They earn less, stay in Canada, and Canada suddenly has enough capacity to support both public and private health care systems. See how easy that was?

Your answer to everything else is REGULATION, REGULATION, REGULATION. How does your statement happen if not by regulation? You've just designated the U.S. medical system as engaging in INSANE PROFITEERING. How do you propose to stop Canadian doctors from pursuing what you have deemed unjust and irrational profiteering?

Jesus. Whoosh again. I didn't say Canada should regulate a thing. They do that now, and what i'm suggesting will eventually remove regulation by allowing Canadian doctors to practice privately in Canada.

Read what I wrote again. Canada doesn't have to change a thing at this point. Fix the US system and the Canadian doctors will choose from free will to stay home. Then Canadians can concentrate on fixing their own system.

Yes, the insane profiteering of the medical system in the US is the problem. Regulation is one way to approach that. But so is competition. But you cannot make the asinine claim that there's nothing that needs to be fixed in the US system. How we approach fixing that is another question.
post #447 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh my god. The "whoosh" was audible from 6000 miles across the Pacific.


I didn't say Canada should stop their citizens from going abroad. I said the US should get a handle on insane profiteering.

How do you propose to stop Canadian doctors from doing this?

First, Canadian doctors stop going to the US to practice where profits are higher. They earn less, stay in Canada, and Canada suddenly has enough capacity to support both public and private health care systems. See how easy that was?

Your answer to everything else is REGULATION, REGULATION, REGULATION. How does your statement happen if not by regulation? You've just designated the U.S. medical system as engaging in INSANE PROFITEERING. How do you propose to stop Canadian doctors from pursuing what you have deemed unjust and irrational profiteering?

Jesus. Whoosh again. I didn't say Canada should regulate a thing. They do that now, and what i'm suggesting will eventually remove regulation by allowing Canadian doctors to practice privately in Canada.

Read what I wrote again. Canada doesn't have to change a thing at this point. Fix the US system and the Canadian doctors will choose from free will to stay home. Then Canadians can concentrate on fixing their own system.

Yes, the insane profiteering of the medical system in the US is the problem. Regulation is one way to approach that. But so is competition. But you cannot make the asinine claim that there's nothing that needs to be fixed in the US system. How we approach fixing that is another question.

 

 

Is there every anything that you endorse that doesn't fail or isn't tainted by the evilness of those darn U.S Republicans?

 

Canada doesn't have to change a thing if all the things you claim that are causing the problem are just regulated out of existance in the U.S. That's like saying a feather would fall faster if we just sucked the entire atmosphere off the planet. Canada can't declare their system a failure because of the U.S. Also how is it staying home out of free will if your solution endorses a less than desirable outcome for them by virtue of removing the alternatives. That is the same thing. Your solution amounts to hey, if we make it suck everywhere, then you won't want to leave.

 

The thing that needs to be fixed in the U.S. system is government. We have an entire field of elective medicine that continues to get better and cheaper, year after year with the right amount of regulation but no government controlling the market levers. You can go get laser eye surgery for better and cheaper than ever before. Meanwhile the cast for your broken arm has gone up 3-4 times the rate of inflation and continues to escalate as government becomes more and more involved.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #448 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh my god. The "whoosh" was audible from 6000 miles across the Pacific.



I didn't say Canada should stop their citizens from going abroad. I said the US should get a handle on insane profiteering.


How do you propose to stop Canadian doctors from doing this?

First, Canadian doctors stop going to the US to practice where profits are higher. They earn less, stay in Canada, and Canada suddenly has enough capacity to support both public and private health care systems. See how easy that was?


Your answer to everything else is REGULATION, REGULATION, REGULATION. How does your statement happen if not by regulation? You've just designated the U.S. medical system as engaging in INSANE PROFITEERING. How do you propose to stop Canadian doctors from pursuing what you have deemed unjust and irrational profiteering?


Jesus. Whoosh again. I didn't say Canada should regulate a thing. They do that now, and what i'm suggesting will eventually remove regulation by allowing Canadian doctors to practice privately in Canada.


Read what I wrote again. Canada doesn't have to change a thing at this point. Fix the US system and the Canadian doctors will choose from free will to stay home. Then Canadians can concentrate on fixing their own system.


Yes, the insane profiteering of the medical system in the US is the problem. Regulation is one way to approach that. But so is competition. But you cannot make the asinine claim that there's nothing that needs to be fixed in the US system. How we approach fixing that is another question.


Is there every anything that you endorse that doesn't fail or isn't tainted by the evilness of those darn U.S Republicans?

Canada doesn't have to change a thing if all the things you claim that are causing the problem are just regulated out of existance in the U.S. That's like saying a feather would fall faster if we just sucked the entire atmosphere off the planet. Canada can't declare their system a failure because of the U.S. Also how is it staying home out of free will if your solution endorses a less than desirable outcome for them by virtue of removing the alternatives. That is the same thing. Your solution amounts to hey, if we make it suck everywhere, then you won't want to leave.

The thing that needs to be fixed in the U.S. system is government. We have an entire field of elective medicine that continues to get better and cheaper, year after year with the right amount of regulation but no government controlling the market levers. You can go get laser eye surgery for better and cheaper than ever before. Meanwhile the cast for your broken arm has gone up 3-4 times the rate of inflation and continues to escalate as government becomes more and more involved.

Use your argument above to explain why getting a cast on a broken leg in Canada costs the taxpayer 1/5 the cost of what it is in the US.

It's not government that is the problem. It is the US government that is the problem.
post #449 of 455
Bribery of an elected official is a criminal offense. But paying a lobbyist six figures to take Senators out on $200 a plate martini lunches where promises can be traded is not a criminal offense.

Extortion of an elected official is a criminal offense. But paying a lobbyist six figures to tell Senators during one of those martini lunches or private yacht trips or cocktail receptions that if they don't push your agenda then you will publish a trade article telling the nation to bot against you is not an offense.

There are no other countries where this bribery and extortion happens as much as it does in the US.

QUID PRO STATUS QUO

It's not government that is the problem. It is the US government that is the problem. And we can start with the lobby system.
post #450 of 455
Somehow a Vice President or a senator making several million dollars on an un-tendered war contract is somehow not frowned upon? It's somehow not illegal?

It's not government that is the problem. It's the US government that is the problem.
post #451 of 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Good luck. He never said a word about being so wrong about WMD.
He's like Donald Trump, without the money. Or the good looks. 1wink.gif

And the fake hair. Hopefully, it's fake, at least.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

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post #452 of 455

Also, I like this new PoliticalInsider website. I should come more often!

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

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post #453 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


There are several problems with your claim:
1) Supply can be artificially restricted to maintain high prices.
2) The synthesis of most of these high-priced drugs is simply a matter of mixing chemicals that are themselves in abundant supply. Capacity could easily be increased if the drug companies wanted to.
3) The price for generic drugs is way lower.
4) The price for brand name drugs is much lower outside of the US.
Um... Let me see... First, Canadian doctors stop going to the US to practice where profits are higher. They earn less, stay in Canada, and Canada suddenly has enough capacity to support both public and private health care systems. See how easy that was?
Freedom to prosper at the expense of others. You must be so proud.

 

1)  Yes.  Can you prove that's happened?  

 

2)  If it's that simple, we should all start making our own drugs.  Really tonton, you sound ridiculous.  These druge companies spend BILLIONS developing and manufacturing drugs.  

 

3) So?  

 

4) That's because of a lack of competition and a Stalin-like FDA, which needs to change.  

 

5) I'm not talking about doctors, I'm talking about patients.  If you want to have the discussion on what doctors are doing with our current system in the US, I'm all for it.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bribery of an elected official is a criminal offense. But paying a lobbyist six figures to take Senators out on $200 a plate martini lunches where promises can be traded is not a criminal offense.
Extortion of an elected official is a criminal offense. But paying a lobbyist six figures to tell Senators during one of those martini lunches or private yacht trips or cocktail receptions that if they don't push your agenda then you will publish a trade article telling the nation to bot against you is not an offense.
There are no other countries where this bribery and extortion happens as much as it does in the US.
QUID PRO STATUS QUO
It's not government that is the problem. It is the US government that is the problem. And we can start with the lobby system.

 

You have absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever.  None.  Zero.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #454 of 455

Can we actually expect you to change your mind if the evidence were presented to you, SDW?  You still haven't about the election, or Benghazi, or WMDs in Iraq...the list goes on ad nauseum.  You have a very long track record of demanding evidence and then pretending it doesn't exist.  Will now be any different?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #455 of 455
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Can we actually expect you to change your mind if the evidence were presented to you, SDW?  

 

Change my mind?  I never expressed an opinion.  I simply asked for evidence one one point, and pointed out the lack of evidence on the other.   

 

 

Quote:
You still haven't about the election

 

Changed my mind about what?  There's nothing to change one's mind about.  The people I relied on were wrong in their turnout assumptions.  Obama's voters turnout...GOP voters did not.  That's really all there is.  

 

 

 

Quote:
, or Benghazi,

 

I have definitely not changed my mind on Bengahzi.  In fact, I'm starting to think the entire thing is much bigger than we know at present. The more comes out about what was said to the American public and what the initial intel assessments actually were, the more concerned I am.  Concerned is not even the word...I want answers.  

Quote:
 or WMDs in Iraq..

 

Again, I'm not sure what I'd change my mind about.  I thought there were WMDs in Iraq.  It turned out their weren't.  I did not see any evidence whatsoever that the Bush Administration lied about them.  Interestingly enough, you excuse the failures of the the intel community wrt Benghazi, but not for Iraq.  

 

 

 

Quote:
.the list goes on ad nauseum.  You have a very long track record of demanding evidence and then pretending it doesn't exist.  Will now be any different?

 

I think you mean that you believe I have such a track record.   I know that I change my mind when the facts change.  For example, if documents were produced showing the Bush Administration deliberately misled the American people on WMDs, I would change my mind.  If documents were produced that showed the intelligence community initially concluded that Benghazi was a spontaneous act and related to the anti-Muslim video, I would change my mind.  In the case of the former, no such evidence exists.  In the case of the latter, the evidence shows quite the opposite.  It shows that top officials knew almost immediately that Benghazi was a terrorist attack.   

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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