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Rumor: Samsung expecting to lose a portion of orders for future Apple chips

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
Samsung may put off construction of a new fabrication facility, according to a new rumor, because it is expected to lose some future chip orders from Apple.

Hit-or-miss technology industry publication DigiTimes, which is known for having a spotty track record with respect to anonymous sources, reported this week that Samsung Electronics is "likely" to delay construction of a new logic fabrication facility known as Line-17. The primary concern for Samsung is said to be the "possibility of losing a portion of orders for Apple's next-generation application chips."

Samsung plans to build the new semiconductor plant in Hwaseong, a city in the Gyeonggi Province of South Korea. Volume production has been planned to begin in the first quarter of 2014.

"However, Samsung will no longer be the sole supplier of Apple-designed chips that power the iPhone and iPad devices, the sources indicated," the report states. "The anticipated drop in orders from Apple has prompted Samsung to consider slowing the pace of its logic-IC capacity expansion."

Apple has long rumored to be pursuing a chipmaking partnership with Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., though Samsung remains the sole supplier of Apple's custom chips found in the iPhone and iPad. One report from last month claimed that TSMC could begin building quad-core 20-nanometer chips for Apple as soon as late 2013.

A6


And in October it was said that Apple was getting "serious" about moving chip production away from Samsung. Around the same time, Apple also hired away former Samsung chip designer Jim Mergard, who also designed and developed chips for AMD for 16 years.

The growing reports could represent a concern on the part of Samsung that its chipmaking business will not grow as much as expected, with the potential loss of Apple as a major customer.

Apple was rumored earlier this year to have made an offer for around $1 billion that would have made TSMC a dedicated chip producer to Apple alone. The offer was allegedly rejected by TSMC, as the company was said to be interested in staying involved in the booming broader smartphone market.
post #2 of 38
"The growing reports could represent a concern on the part of Samsung that its chipmaking business will not grow as much as expected, with the potential loss of Apple as a major customer."

But I thought their SG3 and Note and what not was doing extremely well, especially international markets that want cheap crap like the continent of Africa and Latin America? Why not use that "proposed" fabrication plant to build chips for their own items since they are so successful?
/
/

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post #3 of 38
If Apple intends to switch away from Samsung for logic fabrication, it's obviously to their benefit to keep Samsung in the dark as long as possible. However, if Apple's only exploring the possibility of moving away from Samsung and haven't actually committed to do so, keeping Samsung in the dark may actually hurt Apple. Chip fabs can take years to plan and build and if Apple's mixed messages keeps Samsung from investing in new fabs, if Apple turns out to still be with Samsung in two years after-all, they may find themselves short on production capacity. It'll be interesting to see how Apple tries to diversify while keeping Samsung viable as a primary producer.
post #4 of 38
Re: "...TSMC could begin building quad-core 20-nanometer chips for Apple as soon as late 2013."

The most interesting part of this rumor is the adjective "quad-core." It's quite possible that the 2014 iPhone and iPad will get that quad-core AX chip, most likely still based on the ARMv7 32-bit reference.

But the 64-bit ARMv8 instruction set was released a year ago, and ARM announced their 64-bit Cortex-A53 and Cortex-A57 cores last month. It's only a matter of time before Apple switches consumer Macs to quad-core 64-bit ARM-based AX chips.

Yes, there are marketing and legacy software issues to overcome. But the cost benefit to Apple is so huge that Apple needs to make the Intel-to-ARM transition on their consumer-grade Macs. Intel's CPU pricing is astronomical, and eliminating the Intel Tax would allow Apple to lower Mac prices (helping build market share) while maintaining their high margins.

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post #5 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcommander.data View Post

If Apple intends to switch away from Samsung for logic fabrication, it's obviously to their benefit to keep Samsung in the dark as long as possible. However, if Apple's only exploring the possibility of moving away from Samsung and haven't actually committed to do so, keeping Samsung in the dark may actually hurt Apple. Chip fabs can take years to plan and build and if Apple's mixed messages keeps Samsung from investing in new fabs, if Apple turns out to still be with Samsung in two years after-all, they may find themselves short on production capacity. It'll be interesting to see how Apple tries to diversify while keeping Samsung viable as a primary producer.

I'm sure the Samsung board will be saying the same thing to themselves.

We can mock them, antagonise them, copy their products.
They are just bluffing.

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post #6 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

"The growing reports could represent a concern on the part of Samsung that its chipmaking business will not grow as much as expected, with the potential loss of Apple as a major customer."
But I thought their SG3 and Note and what not was doing extremely well, especially international markets that want cheap crap like the continent of Africa and Latin America? Why not use that "proposed" fabrication plant to build chips for their own items since they are so successful?
/
/

 

Actually they are.  If you haven't yet heard, Samsung Electronic's profit is up almost 100% yoy, in large part, thx to GS III.  

LOL!  You are confused. Samsung's largest markets are Europe and Asia, then followed by the American continents. Nokia's main customers basis is in Africa & Latin America.

 

"..  Hit-or-miss technology industry publication DigiTimes, which is known for having a spotty track record with respect to anonymous sources,.. "

 

LOL!!

post #7 of 38

What the **** is with Apple's stock??! There's absolutely no reason it should continue diving like this. Their fundamentals have never been this good. **** this shit. 

post #8 of 38
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
What the **** is with Apple's stock??!

 

The election.

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post #9 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

 

Actually they are.  If you haven't yet heard, Samsung Electronic's profit is up almost 100% yoy, in large part, thx to GS III.  

LOL!  You are confused. Samsung's largest markets are Europe and Asia, then followed by the American continents. Nokia's main customers basis is in Africa & Latin America.

 

"..  Hit-or-miss technology industry publication DigiTimes, which is known for having a spotty track record with respect to anonymous sources,.. "

 

LOL!!

ahahahahahah..

 

lolololololol

 

kakakakakaka

 

Yes.. those less than 10 million (they sayd they "sold" 30million gs3) per quarter, much lesser actually, are the ones responsible for it.

 

ahahahahahaha

post #10 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

The election.

 

Quite possibly yes. Particularly since Obama didn't jump up and say that he was going to, if re-elected, devote himself to sticking it to companies like Apple and make them move all production back to the States so that they could single handedly create jobs for everyone etc. 

 

Elections are the one thing worse than launch announcements to make Apple's stock fall. And both are well below the analysts and their hyped up sales estimates and the 'production difficulty' talk that they send out to cover up that they were giving out off base numbers to begin with

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post #11 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoradala View Post


I'm sure the Samsung board will be saying the same thing to themselves.
We can mock them, antagonise them, copy their products.
They are just bluffing.
Apple NEED US !

 

Then they are as dumb as Google. Apple was buying maps companies for 3 years so Google should have been working on an iOS app way back then. 

 

Apple has been spreading out component production for ages. Samsung should see this coming and understand it. No smart company puts all eggs in one basket no matter how big and wonderful that basket is. Look at the Tsunami a while back and what it did to hard drive production because basically everyone was working out of one geographic area. All it would take is another Tsunami, an earthquake etc to destroy all or a huge part of Samsung's plants and Apple would be at a stand still because that's who is making all their stuff. Tim might not be a rock star cult leader personality like Steve but he was the COO and this kind of thing was his speciality and he knows this not so little truth better than most. The only reason why Samsung still has like 85-90% of the contracts is because there's no one else to do it. But Apple is working on that issue constantly. Eventually it will be more like Samsung 40% and the other 2-3 will cover the 60% between them

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post #12 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What the **** is with Apple's stock??!

The election.

More broadly, it is people moving out of equities into assets they are comfortable holding for longer periods of time without taking gains. Commercial real-estate should prosper. Many people don't want to need to hold Apple stock for the next five years until taxes go back down, and if they have any significant long-term gains they want to realize them this year.

In January, we should see 30% plus gains, but not everybody wants to hold on that long, and an extra 10 points in taxes on the gain make it seem less attractive.
post #13 of 38

It would be good for Apple to move away.

 

As it is, with Samsung building screens and fabbing SoCs, Samsung knows exactly what the main components will be in the next phones/tablets so it knows early on what it has to do to compete.

post #14 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

 

Actually they are.  If you haven't yet heard, Samsung Electronic's profit is up almost 100% yoy, in large part, thx to GS III.  

LOL!  You are confused. Samsung's largest markets are Europe and Asia, then followed by the American continents. Nokia's main customers basis is in Africa & Latin America.

 

"..  Hit-or-miss technology industry publication DigiTimes, which is known for having a spotty track record with respect to anonymous sources,.. "

 

LOL!!

 

Hey Tool, haven't you heard? Their semiconductor business is down. Looks like their mobile business gains haven't been enough to make up for the loss of component sales to other customers.

 

Surprised to see you back after I made of fool of you in the last two threads about this very subject.

post #15 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

 

 

I guess, I should expect TS to remove this post as well?


Edited by tooltalk - 11/7/12 at 11:55am
post #16 of 38
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post
I guess, I should expect TS to remove this post as well?

 

I don't see any anti-Apple user hate in there.

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post #17 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowdog65 View Post

It would be good for Apple to move away.

 

As it is, with Samsung building screens and fabbing SoCs, Samsung knows exactly what the main components will be in the next phones/tablets so it knows early on what it has to do to compete.


You tell em.  Sheesh, without Apple's superior and cutting edge manufacturing know-how and process related patents, Samsung would only know how to make refrigerators.

post #18 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


You tell em.  Sheesh, without Apple's superior and cutting edge manufacturing know-how and process related patents, Samsung would only know how to make refrigerators.

 

That was either a comprehension or a sarcasm fail.

 

I wasn't implying Samsung learned how to build tablets because of Apple, just that Samsung (Apples number one competitor in Phones/Tablets), gets a very early heads up on the exact specs of the next Apple phone/tablet .

 

It isn't helpful to give this information to your main competitor months before every single product launch.

post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

 

I guess, I should expect TS to remove this post as well?

Why would he do that tool talk? I only found your ignorance and lack of notion of reality real funny... there's nothing wrong you that.

 

Keep up the good work tooltalk.

post #20 of 38

I wonder if Apple could build a single product right now if Samsung put a halt on shipments to Apple?

 

Do they already have a supply line to eliminate Samsung?

post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoradala View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcommander.data View Post

If Apple intends to switch away from Samsung for logic fabrication, it's obviously to their benefit to keep Samsung in the dark as long as possible. However, if Apple's only exploring the possibility of moving away from Samsung and haven't actually committed to do so, keeping Samsung in the dark may actually hurt Apple. Chip fabs can take years to plan and build and if Apple's mixed messages keeps Samsung from investing in new fabs, if Apple turns out to still be with Samsung in two years after-all, they may find themselves short on production capacity. It'll be interesting to see how Apple tries to diversify while keeping Samsung viable as a primary producer.

I'm sure the Samsung board will be saying the same thing to themselves.

We can mock them, antagonise them, copy their products.
They are just bluffing.

Apple NEED US !

 

These are the sort of issues you handle with contracts...

 

e.g.  Apple contracts to buy so many chips from supplier x.  The contract has minimum and maximum targets, as well as time and quality targets.

 

Clauses in the contract allows for a renewal options, and target change options.

 

In some cases Apple will purchase the plant and equipment, or finance the suppliers' purchase of same.

 

 

In effect a contract gives each party a guarantee -- Apple gets a guaranteed supply -- the suppliers get guaranteed workload and guaranteed sales.

 

 

A contract with one supplier does not, necessarily, preclude contracts with other parties.

 

Tim excels at these kinds of arrangements.

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post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What the **** is with Apple's stock??! There's absolutely no reason it should continue diving like this. Their fundamentals have never been this good. **** this shit. 

 

The whole market is down significantly...

 

Likely due to the US elections...

 

Investors are unsure of taxes, the US economy, government spending, consumer spending, the debt, Global economy, foreign relations...

 

Unsure investors sit on the sidelines.

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post #23 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

The whole market is down significantly...

 

Likely due to the US elections...

 

Investors are unsure of taxes, the US economy, government spending, consumer spending, the debt, Global economy, foreign relations...

 

Unsure investors sit on the sidelines.


The specific concern is the fiscal cliff. The market would have reacted similarly even if Romney won. With Dems and GOP splitting control of the Senate and House respectively, gridlock remains. Someone has to blink - Either the Dems and Obama continue the tax cuts or the GOP has to agree to reducing/eliminating them. This ain't going to be pretty, particularly since the GOP's starting point in negotiations is a rate of tax cut higher than what Bush instituted.


Edited by ankleskater - 11/7/12 at 2:31pm
post #24 of 38

Whoever thinks Apple doesn't need Samsung must also believe Apple management is stupid. If Apple could walk away, they would swing that hammer immediately to force Samsung into changing their smartphone design. But they can't. They are taking steps to reduce their dependence on Samsung. But to say they don't need each other is pure ignorance.

 

The fact is that Samsung may see their percentage of Apple business drop but not the gross. This is because iPhone sales is still rising. Apple simply needs more suppliers even if there was no conflict.

post #25 of 38
The problem for Apple is in design skills, Samsung surely still have a major input in the design of the A6 so moving production might also need re-skilling. And shopping around for screens has given Apple new difficulties with the Mini one being particularly below par.
post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem View Post

The problem for Apple is in design skills, Samsung surely still have a major input in the design of the A6 so moving production might also need re-skilling. And shopping around for screens has given Apple new difficulties with the Mini one being particularly below par.

 

I think the A6 was designed entirely in-house by Apple. Samsung is only manufacturing it.

 

Apple's problem isn't expertise; there are plenty of outfits who could make the chips, but not in the quantities that Samsung can.

 

I'd like to think that one day Apple could take on more of the manufacturing itself, but then I think of the sheer cost involved... 1oyvey.gif

post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What the **** is with Apple's stock??! There's absolutely no reason it should continue diving like this. Their fundamentals have never been this good. **** this shit. 

 

Someone is selling big time.

 

J.

post #28 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem View Post

The problem for Apple is in design skills, Samsung surely still have a major input in the design of the A6 so moving production might also need re-skilling. And shopping around for screens has given Apple new difficulties with the Mini one being particularly below par.

 

IIRC correctly Samsung said they worked just as fab on the A6, they had a more technical partnership on earlier designs, but not this one.

post #29 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem View Post

The problem for Apple is in design skills, Samsung surely still have a major input in the design of the A6 so moving production might also need re-skilling. And shopping around for screens has given Apple new difficulties with the Mini one being particularly below par.

 

Samsung had no input into the design of the A6. It was all in house. Remember, Apple did buy two IC design companies, P.A. Semi and Intrinsity. P.A. Semi had completely designed a new Power based CPU from the ground up. Intrinsity worked on customizing ARM cores - the A4 SoC used it. They don't need input from Samsung.

 

The screen on the mini is not below par. It's fine. It's just not what SOME people are used to after the whole "retina" craze. No one, other than the pickiest users are going to even notice the display. The display on the mini is the exact same display used on the 3GS. I know a lot of people still using the 3GS and never has any of them once uttered, "This display sucks!"

 

The fact is, Apple stopped producing the 3GS, and I'm guessing they are using up production on those lines until "retina" production can pick up. This allows them to get the screens at an extremely low cost if not for free - they could have already been paid for. This is what Tim Cook excels at, maximizing supply production.

Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem View Post

The problem for Apple is in design skills, Samsung surely still have a major input in the design of the A6 so moving production might also need re-skilling. And shopping around for screens has given Apple new difficulties with the Mini one being particularly below par.

 

Samsung doesn't design chips. Can you even name one processor or GPU they designed themselves? They license ARM cores and then fab their own chips based on ARM designs. Something Apple used to do years ago. They're great as a fab, not as designers. They even buy SoC's from Qualcomm to use in some devices. Why would a chip "design" company need to use chips from other companies?

 

Meanwhile Apple switched from licensing actual ARM cores to simply licensing the instruction set (for the A6 and A6X) and made their own processor that runs ARM code. Just like AMD makes processors that execute x86 code, but are completely different from Intel processors.

 

Apple is now in the same league as AMD, Nvidia and others who design their own custom chips and get a fab (like Samsung) to produce them to their specs.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathillien View Post


I seriously doubt that you can make anyone a fool with that type of language.

 

Says the troll. I notice he never bothered to come in and defend himself since he knows exactly what I'm talking about. Posts something in one thread to start an argument and then later on says something completely different in another. His whole purpose is to troll and start $hit, sort of like what your recent posting history indicates. Maybe you're his buddy? Or a second account?

post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Quite possibly yes. Particularly since Obama didn't jump up and say that he was going to, if re-elected, devote himself to sticking it to companies like Apple and make them move all production back to the States so that they could single handedly create jobs for everyone etc. 

 

Elections are the one thing worse than launch announcements to make Apple's stock fall. And both are well below the analysts and their hyped up sales estimates and the 'production difficulty' talk that they send out to cover up that they were giving out off base numbers to begin with

Are you interested in setting up an assembly plant requiring 30,000 or so younger workers needed for such a job?

 

The only significant Apple problem is getting enough product to sell.

Foxconn is complaining about meeting  Apple's volume requirements and also maintain Apple's high quality std.

Good for Apple, sticking to their high quality regardless.

The stock will recover, Apple's sales and profit will ensure it.

For now the brokerage insiders are enjoying the bouncy ride, from which  they profit. 1wink.gif

post #32 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What the **** is with Apple's stock??! There's absolutely no reason it should continue diving like this. Their fundamentals have never been this good. **** this shit. 

Well, if Apple moves away from Samsung that will hurt Apple more than it will hurt Samsung just as moving away from Google Maps hurt Apple more than it hurt Google. 

The fundamentals of Apple are the worst since they have been since 2005 so it is not surprising the stock is tanking. I see $300 long term. Analysts, as usually blinded by their spreadsheets, do not understand what is going on. The most important "fundamental" is the rate of change of anticipated profits, which in the case of Apple will not be as big as it has been since 2005 (the derivative of profits, not profits themselves). In fact, there is a good chance it will be negative. This is not the place to explain why but suffice to say that morbidly fat margins that Apple has been charging are not sustainable. Unfortunately, moving away from Samsung means additional expenses for Apple. 

post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by enature View Post

Well, if Apple moves away from Samsung that will hurt Apple more than it will hurt Samsung just as moving away from Google Maps hurt Apple more than it hurt Google. 

The fundamentals of Apple are the worst since they have been since 2005 so it is not surprising the stock is tanking. I see $300 long term. Analysts, as usually blinded by their spreadsheets, do not understand what is going on. The most important "fundamental" is the rate of change of anticipated profits, which in the case of Apple will not be as big as it has been since 2005 (the derivative of profits, not profits themselves). In fact, there is a good chance it will be negative. This is not the place to explain why but suffice to say that morbidly fat margins that Apple has been charging are not sustainable. Unfortunately, moving away from Samsung means additional expenses for Apple. 


Ridiculously long response.

 

Shorter version: Stock market is always right, but rarely logical.

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post #34 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckus Toothnai View Post

When it hit 700 that was about as high as I was willing to ride it. iPhone 5 did not impress me so I sold and shorted at 700 .... I'm going to ride it down to 450 before I buy back again. Then I'm out.
 
AAPL? It might hover here and there, but I don't think you'll see the ascension that we did for the past few years ever again.

Great trade. I think one can ride AAPL all the way back to $300. Unfortunately and very sadly Steve Jobs is not here to get the Apple house in order. Where is an iPhone with a large screen? Where is iOS that easily supports multiple users? Where is seamless - Dropbox-like - integration with the cloud instead of the current iTunes/iCloud/MobileMe confusion? Under Tim Cook leadership, Apple failed to deliver any of those, the crucial features that make devices easy to use. But instead we have a narrow iPhone with a metal edge that is hard to make but easy to scratch. Yeh, let Sir Ive marvel at the machine-cut iPhone edge while Samsung eats Apple marketshare for breakfast.

post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by enature View Post

Great trade. I think one can ride AAPL all the way back to $300.

 

So you will be shorting AAPL then?

post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckus Toothnai View Post

 
You want a tip? Buy Google and Samsung.

 

Samsung is a mega-corp, they are fairly strong and diversified.

 

Google? I wouldn't touch ad-backed stocks:

 

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/07/decline-google-and-internets-ad-business/54835/

"I don't know anyone in the ad-­supported Web business who isn't engaged in a relentless, demoralizing, no-exit operation to realign costs with falling per-user revenues, or who isn't manically inflating traffic to compensate for ever-lower per-user value,"

 

This only gets worse as we move to mobile because people don't pay nearly as much attention to mobile ads and there is less space to host them.

 

I think we will reach Peak Google, before Peak Apple.

post #37 of 38
Originally Posted by enature View Post
Where is an iPhone with a large screen?

 

Been to the website recently?

 

Where is iOS that easily supports multiple users?

 

OS XI.

 

Where is seamless - Dropbox-like - integration with the cloud instead of the current iTunes/iCloud/MobileMe confusion?

 

Built into Mountain Lion.

 

Under Tim Cook leadership, Apple failed to deliver any of those…

 

Only if you've ignored everything Apple has done under Tim Cook's leadership, yeah.

 

…the crucial features that make devices easy to use.

 

None of them fall under that category.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #38 of 38
Samsung are one of the biggest ARM licensees in the world. Apple only got to put their name on the stuff after they bought a license in 2008. Samsung still license from Imagination and it would be stupid to think that both teams ignore each other when designing SOCs. I would expect an announcement from Samsung that the Apple design is 100% theirs. It is probably getting close considering Apple just hired one of the top Samsung guys. It is worth noting that the Samsung Exynos range was simply a separation/renaming of Samsung chips supplied to Apple from 2010. In 2010 the Samsung S5L8920 became the Samsung/Apple S5L8930X otherwise known as the A4. You have to say that Samsung in its moving from design/fab to fab only has so far been handled well.
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