What Obama needs to do now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

We all know that no matter how far right Obama goes (and he goes plenty) the obstructionists will oppose him at every turn. This needs to be stopped, and it can only be stopped by the voters.

Obama needs to take reasonably centrist policy positions, as he has for four years, and EVERY time there is a Republican filibuster, he needs to go in television and address the public. He needs to state what Congress is trying to do and that they have a majority on this position. Then he needs to point out the filibuster. Then he needs to state emphatically that the politicians responsible for this obstructionism need to be voted out of office.

If he does this, we may actually see some cooperation from the right, or they will be defeated in a landslide in 2014.

Exactly!

Agree wholeheartedly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

We all know that no matter how far right Obama goes (and he goes plenty) the obstructionists will oppose him at every turn. This needs to be stopped, and it can only be stopped by the voters.

Obama needs to take reasonably centrist policy positions, as he has for four years, and EVERY time there is a Republican filibuster, he needs to go on television and address the public. He needs to state what Congress is trying to do and that they have a majority on this position. Then he needs to point out the filibuster. Then he needs to state emphatically that the politicians responsible for this obstructionism need to be voted out of office.

If he does this, we may actually see some cooperation from the right, or they will be defeated in a landslide in 2014.

You just saw complete gridlock returned to the Federal Government at every level and the thought process is now "ignore the other guys and do what I want."

No one is saying no because they get some of what they want. They say no because they aren't even consulted or considered. Obama had super majorities when he entered office and squandered them by being hyper-partisan. He needs a debt deal to get done along with say, getting the Senate to not vote down his budget 99-0.

Agreed.

- - - - -

Remember Mitch, an American hero.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-A09a_gHJc

Attitudes like this also need to be brought before the people.

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Obama needs to do this is a very positive way; politics has become so bitter that it will eventually turn the people off, to both parties. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

Nothing Obama did was hyperpartisan.

Can you name another U.S. President that passed a major piece of legislation like ObamaCare on a strict party line vote?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

We all know that no matter how far right Obama goes (and he goes plenty) the obstructionists will oppose him at every turn.

Given that his budgets have been rejected 99-0, I assume you're also including every Democratic senator as obstructionists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 


No other president has had to. No other president has had an opposition party that made a public vow to obstruct. No other president has had to face a strict party opposition the way Obama is.
It's so convenient that the Republicans get to act in the most horrendous hyperpartisan way ever in political history, and then blame the president for not working with them. But that's exactly what happened. Obama could present the most beautiful piece of legislation in history, one that Repubs had supported since Eisenhower, and this Congress would vote on a strict party line against. It's disgusting. It was planned, and executed that way, by the true voice of partisanship.

You sir, are full of shit. The Democrats did the same thing under Bush.  Obama did not reach out to Republicans in any sense.  He was even openly rude to John McCain during the healthcare "roundtable."  Now that's class.  And really, what did you expect?  The GOP doesn't support raising taxes, giving away hundreds of billions directly to unions and private companies who donate to the Presidents' campaign, or 2,700 page healthcare takeovers.  Your idea of bipartisanship is that they fold and give Obama what he wants.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 


No other president has had to. No other president has had an opposition party that made a public vow to obstruct. No other president has had to face a strict party opposition the way Obama is.

That's the most ridiculously hyperpartisan thing I've ever read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

We all know that no matter how far right Obama goes (and he goes plenty) the obstructionists will oppose him at every turn. This needs to be stopped, and it can only be stopped by the voters.
Obama needs to take reasonably centrist policy positions, as he has for four years, and EVERY time there is a Republican filibuster, he needs to go on television and address the public. He needs to state what Congress is trying to do and that they have a majority on this position. Then he needs to point out the filibuster. Then he needs to state emphatically that the politicians responsible for this obstructionism need to be voted out of office.
If he does this, we may actually see some cooperation from the right, or they will be defeated in a landslide in 2014.

 

 

Laughing at the truth again SDW?

That's really sad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

Laughing at the truth again SDW?

 

That's really sad.

Laughing at the notion that Obama is a moderate centrist.  Uh. yeah.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

Laughing at the truth again SDW?

 

That's really sad.

 

Laughing at the notion that Obama is a moderate centrist.  Uh. yeah.  

Well once again you've got those blinders on!

My question is just how many times do you have to be proven wrong until you see this? I'm guessing the answer is an infinite amount.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Has it occurred to you that the same bullshit echo chamber that made you so certain Romney would win also has misled you about the nature of the President and his policies?

Has it occurred to you that you have no idea where I get my news and information, and that you're just parroting the latest "echo chamber" meme?  

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

Well once again you've got those blinders on!

 

My question is just how many times do you have to be proven wrong until you see this? I'm guessing the answer is an infinite amount.

I'm quite certain you've never once "proved me wrong."  You happen to have guessed your way to some correct conclusions, but that does not make your reasoning sound.  But hey, I'll play along.  Please prove (or even make a reasoned argument) that Obama is a moderate centrist.  Ready?  Go.  

You clearly are spouting the same bullshit and lies that the rest of the right wing blogosphere/fox news bubble spouts, so it's pretty reasonable to conclude where you draw your information.  I highly doubt you are coming to the same shitty conclusions and using the same shitty arguments all on your own.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDW2001 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR 

Has it occurred to you that the same bullshit echo chamber that made you so certain Romney would win also has misled you about the nature of the President and his policies?

 

Has it occurred to you that you have no idea where I get my news and information, and that you're just parroting the latest "echo chamber" meme?  

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmac 

Well once again you've got those blinders on!

 

My question is just how many times do you have to be proven wrong until you see this? I'm guessing the answer is an infinite amount.

 

I'm quite certain you've never once "proved me wrong."  You happen to have guessed your way to some correct conclusions, but that does not make your reasoning sound.  But hey, I'll play along.  Please prove (or even make a reasoned argument) that Obama is a moderate centrist.  Ready?  Go.  

You're fond of Star Wars quotes so " This :

is why you fail ".

Ignoring the facts like you always do. And not just facts concerning me. Facts in general.

So there we have it: Raise taxes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

Sounds good. Let's hope the anti-tax and trickle down fools don't obstruct.

Of course it sounds good to you. Because all you people want is more taxes. Let's hope anyone obstructs this.

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Originally Posted by tonton 

And you probably believe the disproved theory that raising taxes on the rich will cause unemployment or something

Will you continue repeating lies until they sound true?

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Originally Posted by tonton 

but do *any* of the proposals outlined above (except maybe capital gains) affect you directly? Is it going to change your take home pay at all? I really doubt it.

What difference does that make? My arguments are based on a) principle (stealing money is wrong), and b) practicality (raising taxes hurts the economy and giving more money to the government hurts the economy.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

You've been taken for a ride.

I see. 

Have you figured out who's taking you for a ride yet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton 

Tell us the truth, MJ, I know you're against all taxes, period. And you probably believe the disproved theory that raising taxes on the rich will cause unemployment or something, but do *any* of the proposals outlined above (except maybe capital gains) affect you directly? Is it going to change your take home pay at all? I really doubt it. You're fighting the rich's war for them. You've been taken for a ride.

Exactly!

Now this sounds exactly like a guy who's looking to compromise...that is where "compromise" means "you do what I want first."

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Now this sounds exactly like a guy who's looking to compromise...that is where "compromise" means "you do what I want first."

 

As the article points out, his comments are no more unyielding than those already made by the Republicans opposing this course of action. It looks to me that he is robustly putting his number one priority on the table with the offer of compromise on related issues. That seems like a reasonable starting point. He did win the election.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

As the article points out, his comments are no more unyielding than those already made by the Republicans opposing this course of action. It looks to me that he is robustly putting his number one priority on the table with the offer of compromise on related issues.

Actually that's point here. We here this talk that the Republicans are the ones that must do all the compromising. That's exactly the stance Obama is taking. This is no different from the last 4 years and Obama's cocksure attitude about "Because I'm the president." and "I won." won't do much to create an atmosphere of bi-partisan discussion.

But that's okay. I'm fine with it. I hope he continues to behave stubbornly and uncompromisingly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

He did win the election.

So what.

So cutting everything is the answer to the financial crisis, except don't touch the military budget, tax cuts to the wealthy, big oil or financial aid to Israel?

Everything else is fair game and expendable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

As the article points out, his comments are no more unyielding than those already made by the Republicans opposing this course of action. It looks to me that he is robustly putting his number one priority on the table with the offer of compromise on related issues.

 

Actually that's point here. We here this talk that the Republicans are the ones that must do all the compromising. That's exactly the stance Obama is taking. This is no different from the last 4 years and Obama's cocksure attitude about "Because I'm the president." and "I won." won't do much to create an atmosphere of bi-partisan discussion.

So is your concern Obama's uncompromising opening gambit, or the fact that others have criticized the Republican's tactics? Or both. I know that you have followed politics long enough to know that this is how they negotiate, whoever is in the White House.

And that's because you prefer any kind of fiscal meltdown to Obama actually being able to achieve something? That's not the bi-partisan spirit that you would like to see, surely.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

He did win the election.

 

So what.

So, traditionally, he gets to make the proposals and set out where he is prepared to compromise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

So cutting everything is the answer to the financial crisis, except don't touch the military budget, tax cuts to the wealthy, big oil or financial aid to Israel?

 

Everything else is fair game and expendable.

I think we need to be hearing a lot more about cuts to spending than we are, yes. The military is fair game too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

So is your concern Obama's uncompromising opening gambit, or the fact that others have criticized the Republican's tactics? Or both.

My concern is that they will raise taxes not really cut spending and keep growing the size and scope of government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

And that's because you prefer any kind of fiscal meltdown to Obama actually being able to achieve something? That's not the bi-partisan spirit that you would like to see, surely.

I reject the premise of the so-called "fiscal meltdown." But that aside, I want to see spending cuts larger than any tax increases. I'd prefer to not see any tax increases at all though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

So, traditionally, he gets to make the proposals and set out where he is prepared to compromise.

Okay. So what? He's made a proposal. Fine. He hasn't given any indication of willingness to compromise and, interestingly, he's hanging his hat on a fiscal proposal (tax increases for the rich) that will do very little if anything to solve the fiscal problems ($1.2T annual deficits.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

So cutting everything is the answer to the financial crisis, except don't touch the military budget, tax cuts to the wealthy, big oil or financial aid to Israel?

 

Everything else is fair game and expendable.

 

I think we need to be hearing a lot more about cuts to spending than we are, yes. The military is fair game too.

If they don't extend the deadline, which I really hope they don't, we will see cuts everywhere, so keep your fingers crossed that business as usual prevails. If they do extend the deadline, they will just extend it and extend it again and again until the final collapse of our economy becomes the new normal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

If they don't extend the deadline, which I really hope they don't, we will see cuts everywhere

Good. But...from what I've read only about $100B-$150B in spending cuts. Hardly believable as a catastrophe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

If they do extend the deadline, they will just extend it and extend it again and again until the final collapse of our economy becomes the new normal.

This is what I expect. Kick the can down the road.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Good. But...from what I've read only about $100B-$150B in spending cuts. Hardly believable as a catastrophe.

 

True but there will be new taxes as well.

I seriously believe we will have to hit rock bottom before anyone is going to notice or actually take measures to really identify and correct the problem which of course will end in failure just like every other great civilization that came before us.. The main issue as I see it is the general population of the US are a bunch of selfish, irresponsible spoiled brats who have no consideration for other people or the natural world. They just want more cake until their ass is so big that that can't even work. They have to live on public assistance. All you have to do is watch how people drive to come to the conclusion that they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

True but there will be new taxes as well.

I'm aware of that. But you seemed to be responding to my comment about not hearing enough about spending cuts. The so-called "fiscal cliff" has virtually no spending cuts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

I seriously believe we will have to hit rock bottom before anyone is going to notice or actually take measures to really identify and correct the problem which of course will end in failure just like every other great civilization that came before us.

Probably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

The main issue as I see it is the general population of the US are a bunch of selfish, irresponsible spoiled brats who have no consideration for other people or the natural world. They just want more cake until their ass is so big that that can't even work. They have to live on public assistance. All you have to do is watch how people drive to come to the conclusion that they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

I don't know if Tytler is correct about dictatorship always following, but he's probably right about the first part. At some point it becomes a simple question of mathematics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

So is your concern Obama's uncompromising opening gambit, or the fact that others have criticized the Republican's tactics? Or both.

 

My concern is that they will raise taxes not really cut spending and keep growing the size and scope of government.

I was assuming that you had actually read the article that you posted the link to. You just read the headline - right?

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

So, traditionally, he gets to make the proposals and set out where he is prepared to compromise.

 

Okay. So what? He's made a proposal. Fine. He hasn't given any indication of willingness to compromise and, interestingly, he's hanging his hat on a fiscal proposal (tax increases for the rich) that will do very little if anything to solve the fiscal problems ($1.2T annual deficits.)

As above -  on the contrary, he explicitly indicated willingness to compromise on a broad range of areas of Republican interest. Time will tell whether he does or not. And yes, I know that you hope he doesn't so that you can continue to lambast him for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

True but there will be new taxes as well.

 

I'm aware of that. But you seemed to be responding to my comment about not hearing enough about spending cuts. The so-called "fiscal cliff" has virtually no spending cuts.

The fiscal cliff has some potentially very damaging spending cuts on defense and non-defense discretionary spending amounting to around 10% of current levels or roughly $110B, with a total reduction of the 2013 federal deficit of $500M - $600M.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

I was assuming that you had actually read the article that you posted the link to.

Correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

You just read the headline - right?

Wrong.

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Originally Posted by muppetry 

As above -  on the contrary, he explicitly indicated willingness to compromise on a broad range of areas of Republican interest.

Yes, of course. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

Time will tell whether he does or not.

Indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

And yes, I know that you hope he doesn't so that you can continue to lambast him for it.

 You don't know any such thing.