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Rumor: iPhone assembler Foxconn plans to build manufacturing plants in US - Page 2

post #41 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


Most certainly. Do realize I have direct experience with this issue and work in a factory that is constantly hiring to replace people that don't want to work. We are talking a factory with production jobs that are a cake walk.
One guy alluded to people that come in and work for a couple of hours and never come back. That does happen more often than you think. Frankly these sorts are actually a good thing because you don't have to evaluate their abilities or willingness to work.
Other issues that are a bigger problem are the workers that come in drunk or stoned. Substance abuse is a huge problem not only for product quality and and productivity but is a huge safety issue. Another significant issue is the many people that are frankly too stupid to work in a factory. You may see that as crude, calling people stupid, but modern factories require people that have something going up stairs.
I could go on and on but it is a mistake to believe that there are that many unemployed out there suitable for work in a factory. Mind you this is a plant that pays well above minimum wage.

 

 

Glad there is someone with actual knowledge beside phony political views.

post #42 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I could add to this but it would really pull this thread off track. To put it bluntly though there are a huge number of lazy people and or idiots in this country. Sadly everyone of them voted for Obama so I really don't see America becoming competitive manufacturing wise anytime soon.

I know, we don't want to derail the thread because some of us are in a bad mood since yesterday.

Would it cheer you up to learn that the lazy, shiftless liberals of Santa Clara County, home to the most valuable technology company on Earth, plus a few minor players like HP and little startups like Facebook, voted 70 percent for Obama?
post #43 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by haar View Post

if the minimum wage is $10 let's say that's $50 extra for each phone...
/Pointless rambling

The non-tipped minimum wage is $7.25. This varies somewhat state to state, but not by much.
post #44 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Digitimes as a source. Take it with a salt lick
And where are the critics to blast the other 80 ish clients that use Foxconn for their American sold products.
Totally mum. Easy money your Surface wasn't 100% made in the USA, for example

Nonsense. Does Mike Daisey plan to sell tickets to "The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Ballmer"? No? Then Microsoft gets a free pass and Apple stays in the doghouse for being big and successful.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #45 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

I know, we don't want to derail the thread because some of us are in a bad mood since yesterday.
Would it cheer you up to learn that the lazy, shiftless liberals of Santa Clara County, home to the most valuable technology company on Earth, plus a few minor players like HP and little startups like Facebook, voted 70 percent for Obama?

Go to FoxNews or WSJ.com to do your ranting about political BS. Our labor issues have been around longer than the last 4 years.
post #46 of 73

If this by any means has a % of accuracy it would be a good start in that they are looking to build in America. Regardless of the level of pay Americans have in the past built incredible technical stuff by hand and if you want a job you will work for it verses no food or a roof over your head. I would much rather buy and support an American worker. 

 

Now if they would just put the plant where Jobs are needed! Sacramento, Northern CA, Detroit, Las Vegas, or better yet Elkhart County, Northern Indiana – these folks can build as it’s the RV Manufactures capital and it was decimated when the economy tanked.

post #47 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


The reality is very few factories in the USA pay minimum wage rates. Often production line workers are paid well above that. On the otherhand you rightfully point out that Foxconn workers are actually being paid faily well too. When it comes right down to it the assembly effort or cost isn't a big deal. That is wages paid are only a small factor in the cost of the product.

agreed.   but the problem was/is 'benefits'   Used to be for every dollar you paid in salary of putting a car together in your average GM plant, you also paid a dollar in benefits, most of which was paying pensions and healthcare for retired employees of the GM lines.   With the current switch to 401Ks and defined benefit plans, and healthcare benefits cut way back, it's not as bad... however, it's still a burden and add on top of that payroll taxes and and workmans comp, etc.

 

my envelope math says  that the avg foxconn worker gets paid $1.81 an hour (after the 25% pay bump), and using iSuppli figures it then takes about 5.5 hours per phone to manufacture ($10/phone after the pay raise).... so, if the wage is $8/hour, and you pay 25% in benefits and SSI tax... $10/hour... it will cost $55 to build an iPhone... or $45 more than in China.  and that's assuming the workers are 'equally capable' in quality output.

 

the questions would be: is setting up a factory cheaper in the US (I can only assume that china has some sort of communist party tax/graft to pay on property and profits)?  Shipping cheaper (if all the glass is made in the US at Corning... would trucking it be cheaper than flying it to China?)? etc.

 

my guess is it will cost at least $25 more to make a phone in the US, if not $50 more.  That's steep. but if Apple did make them in the US, the 'made in america' value may be great.  

 

btw:   To make 30Million iPhones a year (what, less than a quarter of annual world sales), you'd need 82,500 workers, creating wages of 1.3Billion. 

post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetMan View Post

Go to FoxNews or WSJ.com to do your ranting about political BS. Our labor issues have been around longer than the last 4 years.

Tell it to wizard69, not me. He threw the first pile of BS in here.

Back on topic, it's not a labor problem the US has, it's an engineering, design and manufacturing problem. The reason the US auto industry never recovered from the Japanese "invasion" and higher fuel prices is that we never got a Steve Jobs-like product guy in the auto industry. We got lunkheads like Bob Lutz and Lee Iaoccoca who had no idea how to design cars for the world market. How can an auto worker be motivated when he's making soul-killing junk like Navigators and Saturns?

We lost all electronics manufactuing to the Japanese because the television manufacturers thought they were selling living room furniture, not inceasingly miniaturized solid state technology.

The truth is, until Apple got revived, it wasn't possible to point to a single mass-market industry where Americans could compete with the rest of the world, unless you count software. It's not labor issues or taxation that killed American manufacturing, it's lack of intelligent design and engineering. For proof that it isn't just Asian superiority in these fields, look at Germany. They're holding their own because they value the concepts behind what they are making, as does Apple.

I think it's hilarious and a hopeful sign, if true, that the Taiwanese Chinese now want to develop US engineering, show them how it's done, BY MOVING THEM TO CHINA for apprenticeship.
post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

What is this even supposed to mean? That Apple products aren't complicated (to manufacture)? That Americans can't handle complicated work?

He was meaning that Chinese workers have small nimble fingers.

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #50 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Oh, no! Americans as slave labor! 80 hour work days! Three dollars compensation!

 

Nice of you to be so generous.

 

It won't be Americans working in the FoxConn factories, they will import the labor.  It is cheaper that way.  No taxes to pay, no benefits.  .

 

And then when FoxConn's factories in America fail, the US government will bail them out and all of us will own a losing interest in the company and the POTUS will declare all the FoxConn workers US citizens.  The UAW will change its name to United Apple Workers.

post #51 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


Tell it to wizard69, not me. He threw the first pile of BS in here.
Back on topic, it's not a labor problem the US has, it's an engineering, design and manufacturing problem. The reason the US auto industry never recovered from the Japanese "invasion" and higher fuel prices is that we never got a Steve Jobs-like product guy in the auto industry. We got lunkheads like Bob Lutz and Lee Iaoccoca who had no idea how to design cars for the world market. How can an auto worker be motivated when he's making soul-killing junk like Navigators and Saturns?
We lost all electronics manufactuing to the Japanese because the television manufacturers thought they were selling living room furniture, not inceasingly miniaturized solid state technology.
The truth is, until Apple got revived, it wasn't possible to point to a single mass-market industry where Americans could compete with the rest of the world, unless you count software. It's not labor issues or taxation that killed American manufacturing, it's lack of intelligent design and engineering. For proof that it isn't just Asian superiority in these fields, look at Germany. They're holding their own because they value the concepts behind what they are making, as does Apple.
I think it's hilarious and a hopeful sign, if true, that the Taiwanese Chinese now want to develop US engineering, show them how it's done, BY MOVING THEM TO CHINA for apprenticeship.

yes the wiz was being an sore loser.

Back on topic, yes that was interesting statement if true. Jobs complained about the same thing. Im not sure what it means.

We have the big Intel plants etc, but these are small compared to Foxxcon.  Is it really super large scale assembly operations that they are refering too?  There probably is some truth to that. I can't think of many operations world wide that come close to 'hundreds of thousands'(is this correct?) of people required to assembly a single product.

 

Related story, the large aerospace company I work for has agreed to 'mentor' an aerospace company in Brazil(its all about relationships according the the latest Harvard MBA playbook... /s). Our managment visited and report thousands of young engineers lead by a few old timer college type professors designing their next military cargo aircraft. 

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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side, kid.
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post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


I could add to this but it would really pull this thread off track. To put it bluntly though there are a huge number of lazy people and or idiots in this country. Sadly everyone of them voted for Obama so I really don't see America becoming competitive manufacturing wise anytime soon.

It's ironic that all these Republicans are using government assisted programs that they want to abolish. You have become the people you hated so fiercely, people without jobs complaining the government doesn't do enough for us. You acknowledge this was the worst economy since the depression but you only get four years to completely turn things around? Unemployment is lower, the stock market went from $6500 to $13,000, saved GM, housing is rebounding, and we have President that can actually communicate unlike Bush Jr.. And for life of me why choose Romney worth $200 million, Harvard graduate and say he's not like Obama.

post #53 of 73

Not gonna happen.

 

Wall Street whines if Apple's margins are 1% less and people on this forum whine about dirt cheap $329 gadgets. Look at Apple's stock action lately. Where will the stock be if Apple's margins declines? And imagine if unions get involved in those factories. There is also the question of qualified workers. Factory jobs are not going to be high paying jobs, and I doubt that there are enough qualified people. Are they going to hire illegals and pay them $3 an hour?lol.gif

 

I am looking forward to the next four years, tons of more Americans will be unemployed. The American people have spoken. lol.gif

post #54 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

 

It won't be Americans working in the FoxConn factories, they will import the labor.  It is cheaper that way.  No taxes to pay, no benefits.  .

 

And then when FoxConn's factories in America fail, the US government will bail them out and all of us will own a losing interest in the company and the POTUS will declare all the FoxConn workers US citizens.  The UAW will change its name to United Apple Workers.

Nice positive outlook for your fellow americans (I presume your american),  real nice.

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post #55 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Not gonna happen.

 

Wall Street whines if Apple's margins are 1% less and people on this forum whine about dirt cheap $329 gadgets. Look at Apple's stock action lately. Where will the stock be if Apple's margins declines?

A little history lesson.

 

Cook introduced the 4S in October last year then a couple of weeks later he announced that the holiday quarter would be phenomenally high. Where did the stock price go... down... right until the last week of November.

 

I thought we were going to go up after the last quarter was announced but AAPL seems to be following the same pattern as last year.

 

Games... just games. AAPL is very oversold at the moment.

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post #56 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Tell it to wizard69, not me. He threw the first pile of BS in here.
Ok, I will yell at him too.

Back to you though, there is a reason that there is a growing presence of car manufacturers building cars here. 1. High quality of labor. 2. It reduces their cost sending completed cars half-way across the world. 3. It is cheaper to send car parts here from all over the world. 4. Tax breaks from the federal, state and local governments for setting up manufacturing plants in the US. 5. Import duties on product made overseas protecting products made in the US. 6. Americans buy goods that are "made in America".

A lot of this discussion revolves around cost of inputs and the ability to get incentives for #4 and 5 above. The cost of physical capital in the US is now really cheap while the cost of human capital is very expensive. So, investing in plants with advanced robotics and minimizing the human capital outlays are key. Also, the incentives brought by local, state and federal governments getting people to work at these plants cannot be overlooked. Especially the grants for retraining workers and hiring veterans. They are substantial sums. The last key bit is that Americans prefer (on average) to buy things that are "made in america". What is amazing is that the marketing term: "Made in the USA" is regulated to the extent that foreign manufacture of parts is included in the calculation of the overall weighted average of the total.

I am in favor of increasing manufacturing jobs in the US. Bring it.
post #57 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Games... just games. AAPL is very oversold at the moment.

I don't disagree with that at all.

post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

There won't be union problems if a plant is built in a right-to-work state.
I'm sure Americans can handle it but at a competitive rate for consumer electronics? I don't think so.

 

Right to work is just one of those clever right wing euphemisms that really means, "Right to treat your employees anyway you damn please and fire them if they try to organize."

post #59 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15 View Post

yes the wiz was being an sore loser.
Back on topic, yes that was interesting statement if true. Jobs complained about the same thing. Im not sure what it means.
We have the big Intel plants etc, but these are small compared to Foxxcon.  Is it really super large scale assembly operations that they are refering too?  There probably is some truth to that. I can't think of many operations world wide that come close to 'hundreds of thousands'(is this correct?) of people required to assembly a single product.

Related story, the large aerospace company I work for has agreed to 'mentor' an aerospace company in Brazil(its all about relationships according the the latest Harvard MBA playbook... /s). Our managment visited and report thousands of young engineers lead by a few old timer college type professors designing their next military cargo aircraft. 

Yeah, Jobs's answer to Pres. Obama, the one about 700,000 workers needing so many thousands of engineers, has been a curiosity to me since we first heard about it. I'd like to see some background on it.

Are there really that many workers just doing Apple stuff, or was Jobs loosely referring to the total working population of Foxconn factories where Apple was a large supporting customer? And how many engineers per group of workers are needed to lay out and run such plants?

As Jobs said, there aren't enough manufacturing engineers in the US. Where would they work if they got the schooling? Why would any American want to go into the field?

The fact that the Prez even asked the Main Man in US consumer manufacturing (and Obama does have an iPad, so he knows first hand what "designed in California" means) tells us that there is hope for an initiative to promote design and engineering as a US-centered industrial base. Terry Guo can't be unaware that he's dealing with a formidable design engine, unique to the US, or the left coast of the US.

Maybe this is a high-level plot to start working on the Steve Jobs Problem. Give the manufacturing engineers something to do.

The Obama-Cook-Guo Initiative, all very secret at this point, Apple style. "Loose lips sink ships."

End of fantasy.
post #60 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetMan View Post

Ok, I will yell at him too.
Back to you though, there is a reason that there is a growing presence of car manufacturers building cars here. 1. High quality of labor. 2. It reduces their cost sending completed cars half-way across the world. 3. It is cheaper to send car parts here from all over the world. 4. Tax breaks from the federal, state and local governments for setting up manufacturing plants in the US. 5. Import duties on product made overseas protecting products made in the US. 6. Americans buy goods that are "made in America".
A lot of this discussion revolves around cost of inputs and the ability to get incentives for #4 and 5 above. The cost of physical capital in the US is now really cheap while the cost of human capital is very expensive. So, investing in plants with advanced robotics and minimizing the human capital outlays are key. Also, the incentives brought by local, state and federal governments getting people to work at these plants cannot be overlooked. Especially the grants for retraining workers and hiring veterans. They are substantial sums. The last key bit is that Americans prefer (on average) to buy things that are "made in america". What is amazing is that the marketing term: "Made in the USA" is regulated to the extent that foreign manufacture of parts is included in the calculation of the overall weighted average of the total.
I am in favor of increasing manufacturing jobs in the US. Bring it.

Great post. Thank you.

P.S. I agree completely.
Edited by Flaneur - 11/8/12 at 11:52am
post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Right to work is just one of those clever right wing euphemisms that really means, "Right to treat your employees anyway you damn please and fire them if they try to organize."

I wouldn't buy a single Apple product if it was American Union made. I don't support criminal enterprises.

post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Apple 
[" url="/t/154160/rumor-iphone-assembler-foxconn-plans-to-build-manufacturing-plants-in-us/40#post_2229577"]I wouldn't buy a single Apple product if it was American Union made. I don't support criminal enterprises.

Hah! But I'm surprised you don't think China is a criminal enterprise.

I don't, by the way, just that they're at a certain stage of development. But now that I think about it, the US has been a criminal enterprise off and on during my lifetime. In certain areas of the world, still is.

Off topic again. Sigh.
post #63 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


Hah! But I'm surprised you don't think China is a criminal enterprise.
 

Oh, but I do think that of China.1biggrin.gif

 

It's just Chinese communists are no surprise to anybody, but I don't like American communists/socialists/marxists.

post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

They want to build manufacturing plants in Taxifornia? That doesn't make good business sense.

 

Especially now. This week the Democrats won a super majority in Sacramento because Romney's 47% is more like 65% here. It's single Party rule. They can now rape the taxpayers with no opposition, and they most assuredly will. Anyone who thinks it'll just be "the wealthy" are deluded well into the realm of severe mental illness. That class warfare pablum is a giant mathematical fail; cheap mana cooked by the sopciopath politicians for the masses of voters whose economic knowledge comes from Disney cartoons.

 

Any remotely productive person who is able to will be gone from California within 5 to 10 years. It'll be nothing but politicians, fat pampered state employees and people who can't wipe their own asses without a government program in place.

 

In the past five years, a net total of 10,000,000 people came into California. The number of new tax returns filed in the same period is 150,000. Let that sink in for a bit. Well, unless you're one of the voters mention above and you'll just sit there and say, "Duuuhhhhh, I don't get it! Duuuhhhhh. Is Jersey Shore on? Duuuuuuuhhhhhhhh!"

post #65 of 73

China is changing, and this will become more evident as time progresses. These changes include dramatic 'class' movements.

 

Recently, Lenovo announced plans to build a plant for PC's on the east coast/south, and Samsung is reportedly building mfg facilities for making chips in Texas.

 

These plants are unlikely to bring the million-person dormitory model, and will be subject to employee standards.

 

Golly Gee. Maybe Apple can assemble something here. Blue t-shirts?

post #66 of 73

Those factories in the US are using skilled labor, or union workers, or making high margin products (50%+) non of which Foxconn will use or hire to build TVs.

 

Also, the US employees less then 10% of the total work force in a factory, however the US is the 2nd largest producer of finish goods in the world second only to China which employees about 30% of its work force in factories. and China does not product 3 times as much as the US only about 50% more.

 

Another fact, most US factories heavily depend on automation and robots to make products, thus requiring less low level work forces, Automation is illegal in China as long as a human can do the same task to the same level as a machine. If you notice in Apple's Iphone 5 video that Tom Crook showed they had a robot and vision system picking out which display went with the corresponding case, why, a human could not do it so they allowed an automated system.

 

Keep in mind Foxconn manufacturing model depends on humans doing repetitive low skill tasks to out put lots of products very quickly. So they are not going to pay top dollar labor wages that exist in other US factors.

 

As others pointed out, Asian companies are making products in the US, what they do not understand is the reason they do it is because the high transportation cost for those products or they are high margin products which they can afford to pay the higher US labor costs. Most people in the US except maybe the migrant farm work is willing to sit in a factory and do the exact same thing day in and day out for a low wage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

This is nonsense! Almost every factory in the US is paying above minimum wage rates. Wages might be slightly lower due to the economy but the idea that there is an excess of people out there willing and able to work in a factory is a mistake.
post #67 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

I don't care what they're assembling, jobs in the US is win win no matter what the circumstances. It's a step in the right direction to bring jobs back. I hope the rumors are true!

 

And yes, I'd pay an extra $50 per phone if it meant jobs in the US.


Everyone says they would pay more for a product truly made in the USA but history shows us that few ever actually do. Very few ever check where the product is manufactured to start with, it normally comes down to most buying the item that costs them less.

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post #68 of 73
It's been quite some time since randomly swallowing and regurgitating others' vomit came to be accepted as "journalism." Now ("according to a report published Thursday by hit-or-miss industry publication DigiTimes") we're reaching new heights in unsubstance%u2026 not so much swapping spit as swapping dreams about swapping spit, presumably via Twitter.

Soon the standard lede will be "someone somewhere may have said something like%u2026"
post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

Apple won't need workers. They would use robots to keep the cost down. With the iPhone 5, we all saw the trouble that humans have with such small, delicate equipment.

But then those robots would start riots and commit suicide, and Mike Daisey will have that to add to his one man monologue about the evils of Apple. And Tim Cook would have to put on the yellow jacket again and pose for a photo on the assembly lines, while forum trolls demand that Apple stop mistreating robots.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #70 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Not gonna happen.

 

Wall Street whines if Apple's margins are 1% less and people on this forum whine about dirt cheap $329 gadgets. Look at Apple's stock action lately. Where will the stock be if Apple's margins declines? And imagine if unions get involved in those factories. There is also the question of qualified workers. Factory jobs are not going to be high paying jobs, and I doubt that there are enough qualified people. Are they going to hire illegals and pay them $3 an hour?lol.gif

 

I am looking forward to the next four years, tons of more Americans will be unemployed. The American people have spoken. lol.gif


You have to ignore this to a degree. Predictions always offset things in either direction. They're betting on growth. If Apple sees continued growth, the stock should have a very healthy future.

post #71 of 73
This story about opening plants in the US for TV manufacturing goes with another DigiTimes story from yesterday. It says that Foxconn is planning to make panels over 100 inches, and UltraHD ones as well.

Maybe it would make sense to build these fragile behemoth screens closer to where they'll be sold, One plant in the Western US, one in the upper Midwest. Here's the link to the companion story, which AI should perhaps have noted:

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20121108PD218.html

Edit: Then the obvious question is, how would the TVs be branded? Does Foxconn have a US partner that might be in on this?
Edited by Flaneur - 11/9/12 at 10:22am
post #72 of 73
To build razor thin margin TVs at American wages/benefits? I think not.
post #73 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

What is this even supposed to mean? That Apple products aren't complicated (to manufacture)? That Americans can't handle complicated work?

 

No, it means it will cost more for American's to build that product than elsewhere because it takes longer. 

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