Really, you have to understand. groakes and his ilk consider Israel's very founding to be a crime. They do not believe Israel has a right to exist.
His ilk hasn't expressed an opinion, but he did clearly state above that he does not believe that. You are building straw men again...
His ilk hasn't expressed an opinion, but he did clearly state above that he does not believe that. You are building straw men again...
If you have a response relevant to the thread, that's great. Otherwise, your services as referee are not required.
Really, you have to understand. groakes and his ilk consider Israel's very founding to be a crime. They do not believe Israel has a right to exist. Therefore, they will go to any lengths to highlight "atrocities" the Israeli's commit in defense of their nation, and excuse all inexcusable tactics by those who wish to push Israel into the sea. They view the Palestinians as oppressed by the evil Zionists, and support any method of resisting the "occupation." This includes equating the deliberate slaughter of innocent civilians with accidental civilian deaths caused by the IDF.
You'll never change their minds.
Sorry SDW but in my opinion you have it wrong.
I, and my ilk(!), don't deny Israel's right to exist. Neither do we support or condone terrorist attacks. It's just that there is a remarkable hypocrisy in evidence whereby Israeli state sponsored terrorism is tolerated, supported, and encouraged, yet Arab terrorism is condemned. I abhor all terrorism, whether it's carried out by Hamas, IDF, the US Armed Forces, or who ever. Civilian deaths in Gaza, the 5th most densely populated area on the planet, may be "accidental" but they are 100% predictable and expected, which in my books equates to indiscriminate killings. No doubt you also think that the fire bombing of Dresden was completely justified.
His ilk hasn't expressed an opinion, but he did clearly state above that he does not believe that. You are building straw men again...
If you have a response relevant to the thread, that's great. Otherwise, your services as referee are not required.
You will get them anyway when you pull stunts like that one. Your straw man arguments offend more than just their intended target.
You will get them anyway when you pull stunts like that one. Your straw man arguments offend more than just their intended target.
If you're "offended" by my "stunts," I suggest you get some perspective.
You will get them anyway when you pull stunts like that one. Your straw man arguments offend more than just their intended target.
If you're "offended" by my "stunts," I suggest you get some perspective.
Well for perspective, let's consider your "response relevant to the thread" that I took issue with. You deliberately inverted another poster's declared position, and then belittled that position. I called you on it. Which of us made the less relevant contribution again?
Barely a mention of Egypt. They must not be jews.
Barely a mention of Egypt. They must not be jews.
What about the tens of thousands slaughtered in Syria? Death toll is around 40,000 now.
Oh, that's right. Nobody cares about that. People only care and crawl out of the woodwork when Jews have the nerve to defend themselves from Islamic terrorist groups.
Oh look, Israel killed a couple of Hamas terrorists! Let's go out in the streets and protest this outrage!
Look at that poor little dead baby, never mind that the picture is fake and old, taken from the Syria conflict. I'm an ignorant dumbshit who's easily manipulated!
What about the tens of thousands slaughtered in Syria? Death toll is around 40,000 now.
Oh, that's right. Nobody cares about that. People only care and crawl out of the woodwork when Jews have the nerve to defend themselves from Islamic terrorist groups.
Oh look, Israel killed a couple of Hamas terrorists! Let's go out in the streets and protest this outrage!
Look at that poor little dead baby, never mind that the picture is fake and old, taken from the Syria conflict. I'm an ignorant dumbshit who's easily manipulated!
I'm sure Israel is to blame for that too. Bush too. But don't blame Rice; that's racist.
But don't blame Rice; that's racist.
Anybody who criticizes any democrat that is a shade darker than an A4 piece of white paper is obviously a racist and secret Klan member. It doesn't matter how corrupt or incompetent they are, they are automatically shielded from all criticism and can do no wrong, because they are protected by the magical race card.
The solution is obviously to never vote for any democrat that is darker than your teeth, as corrupt and racist politicians who claim immunity based on the color of their skin and are never held accountable for anything are not the kind of people that should be in office. It's actually dangerous to elect politicians that can not be held accountable.
Was the photo fake? Seriously? I usually don't respond to your racist and otherwise hateful bullshit, but if this is true, please share (I don't mean that sarcastically, I really want to know.)
Was the photo fake? Seriously? I usually don't respond to your racist and otherwise hateful bullshit, but if this is true, please share (I don't mean that sarcastically, I really want to know.)
Here's a photo of some dead Palestinian kid, that turned out to be killed by Palestinian rocket fire. What a bunch of lying morons.
And the idiots at CNN also falsely reported that bogus story.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/11/18/Bloggers-Catch-More-Dead-Child-Fakery-by-Hamas
Here's another BS image, which was not from the Gaza conflict at all, but from a Syrian hospital. Hamas and their supporters are so primitive and stupid to believe that nobody would be able to expose their laughable propaganda. This is nothing new, there have been numerous forgeries and fake photos from other past conflicts also. There's a reason why it's called Pallywood.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/11/14/Hamas-Fakes-Casualties-on-Twitter
From the latest conflict in Gaza, here's some poor Palestinian wounded man who's being carried away and helped by residents. The poor, poor guy, I hope that he's not hurt that bad, and gets the help that he needs.
Moments later, the same "injured" guy is walking around like nothing happened.
These people are dumber than dirt.
That's terrible. No old file photos should be used to fake recent events.
However, the following facts are not disputed:
Air strikes have hit rocket stores, launchpads and suspected Hamas command posts, government buildings and apartment blocks in an eight-day-old assault that has killed 139 Gazans, most of them civilians, including 34 children. Israel says 56 militants have been killed.
Rockets fired from Gaza have killed four Israeli civilians and one soldier since the conflict began.
Sounds fair? Plus this:
Is there no recognition of forcing the Palestinians into a corner? Force people into a corner, and you don't expect them to fight back?
Was the photo fake? Seriously? I usually don't respond to your racist and otherwise hateful bullshit, but if this is true, please share (I don't mean that sarcastically, I really want to know.)
Here's a photo of some dead Palestinian kid, that turned out to be killed by Palestinian rocket fire. What a bunch of lying morons.
And the idiots at CNN also falsely reported that bogus story.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/11/18/Bloggers-Catch-More-Dead-Child-Fakery-by-Hamas
That's most unfortunate. However, just for completeness, if you follow the links you end up at the Sunday Telegraph news article that reported this issue.
But there were signs on Saturday that not all the Palestinian casualties have been the result of Israeli air strikes. The highly publicised death of four-year-old Mohammed Sadallah appeared to have been the result of a misfiring home-made rocket, not a bomb dropped by Israel.
The child’s death on Friday figured prominently in media coverage after Hisham Kandil, the Egyptian prime minister, was filmed lifting his dead body out of an ambulance. "The boy, the martyr, whose blood is still on my hands and clothes, is something that we cannot keep silent about," he said, before promising to defend the Palestinian people.
But experts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights who visited the site on Saturday said they believed that the explosion was caused by a Palestinian rocket.
In the chaos, it is highly unlikely that Mr Kandil or anyone else at the hospital suspected that the death was the result of anything but an air strike.
Sharif Khalah, 26, was standing at the end of the alleyway by the road when the explosion happened.
"Suddenly there was this whistling noise, a whoosh and then bang," he told The Sunday Telegraph."I couldn’t see anything for about 10 minutes because there was so much dust and smoke. Then I saw the little boy."
Less than 24 hours after her youngest son’s death, Esmat Sadallah, Mohammed’s mother, was too bereft to apportion blame. It was possible he was struck by a rocket fired by Palestinian fighters, she said. It was also possible he was killed in an Israeli strike, she added, although nobody had heard the sound of a drone or plane in the sky just before the explosion.
It is possible that while this incident was wrongly attributed, it was not done so intentionally as has been suggested.
However, the following facts are not disputed:
I do dispute those "facts".
The map is deceptive, it's pure propaganda, and is meant to deceive ignorant people, as the image all the way to left is not accurate. Around the time of 1946, it wasn't the Palestinian's land, and it's never been the Palestinian's land. It was part of the British mandate. And before that it was part of the Ottoman empire.
Also, the "palestinians" of course rejected the UN partition, and the Arab countries chose to wage war instead, with the goal of wiping out Israel. They lost, and guess what, things usually don't end up well for those who lose a war. And there have been many wars since then, which they've also lost. If they keep it up, I'd imagine that the map will even end up looking worse for them.
I don't have any sympathy for aggressive war mongerers and stupid people.
That's most unfortunate. However, just for completeness, if you follow the links you end up at the Sunday Telegraph news article that reported this issue.
It is possible that while this incident was wrongly attributed, it was not done so intentionally as has been suggested.
I'm not going to give Hamas the benefit of the doubt, as they have been guilty of countless, well documented forgeries and lies in the past. I believe that even if they knew that it wasn't an Israeli strike that had killed the boy, they would not pass up the chance to blame Israel anyway.
And what of the other two links which were also in my post? Was the guy who was injured and being carried around, yet moments later is walking around like nothing happened, did he miraculously get cured? Is that also not intentional lies and deception? What about the photo from a Syrian hospital? Is that just an honest mistake made by Hamas terrorists?
Really, you have to understand. groakes and his ilk consider Israel's very founding to be a crime. They do not believe Israel has a right to exist. Therefore, they will go to any lengths to highlight "atrocities" the Israeli's commit in defense of their nation, and excuse all inexcusable tactics by those who wish to push Israel into the sea. They view the Palestinians as oppressed by the evil Zionists, and support any method of resisting the "occupation." This includes equating the deliberate slaughter of innocent civilians with accidental civilian deaths caused by the IDF.
You'll never change their minds.
"Ilk". hmmm.
Israel has a right to exist, but really, SDW2001 and Apple][, whoever you are, do you honestly believe that the way it was created was right? Is forcibly displacing hundreds of thousands of people off their farms and orchards, burning down their homes, razing their villages, raping their women and then forcing them into "refugee camps" where conditions are no better than WWII POW camps - was the "right" thing to do? This is still happening today, but the reality is censored in the US media, for obvious reasons. Yes, according to your track records on this subject (and other parallel issues), it probably was, and remains the right thing to do. You clearly cannot handle anything in which the US establishment or allies thereof, are presented in a less than favorable light. That is in your track record too, even if horrendous crimes have been committed.
If Israel has a right to exist (even if the majority of its inhabitants are of Central European ancestry, rather than pure Semitic) then why, SDW2001, Apple][ etc, does Palestine NOT have the same right to exist? You attitude is not only duplicitous, but also despicable beyond that which ordinary language permits. Your mindset of the same basic ingredient that has given rise to the Klan or other hate groups, in which your hatreds and biases are disguised by your supposed "support" of the Jewish people. Are you, and others of your "ilk", the term used in the post above, playing on the sympathy generated by the Holocaust to prevent criticism of anything that Israel does? Perhaps you view the Jewish people as racially, ethnically and spiritually superior to their neighbors? Perhaps you view the Palestinians as all scum and deserve the hell that they have been put through for the last 60+ years? Perhaps you support the common strategy, that by maintaining the status quo, there will always be a pool of young men (Hamas militants in this case) who will resort to violence, which will happen in ANY downtrodden population, its the way humanity is. Hamas is a group consisting of a tiny minority of the overall population, but a visible group representing an easy and convenient way for the US pro-Israeli corporate media and political machine to tar and demonize the entire Palestinian population as terrorists? That's an easy sell to the US public because the media has consistently presented the Israeli side of the story, only.
That's most unfortunate. However, just for completeness, if you follow the links you end up at the Sunday Telegraph news article that reported this issue.
It is possible that while this incident was wrongly attributed, it was not done so intentionally as has been suggested.
I'm not going to give Hamas the benefit of the doubt, as they have been guilty of countless, well documented forgeries and lies in the past. I believe that even if they knew that it wasn't an Israeli strike that had killed the boy, they would not pass up the chance to blame Israel anyway.
And what of the other two links which were also in my post? Was the guy who was injured and being carried around, yet moments later is walking around like nothing happened, did he miraculously get cured? Is that also not intentional lies and deception? What about the photo from a Syrian hospital? Is that just an honest mistake made by Hamas terrorists?
I wasn't commenting on Hamas, just that those involved may not have known what happened and the international reporting may have been in good faith. I didn't comment on the other events because I think you summed those up correctly.
Source?
Source?
Europe's anti-semitic wet dreams.
Given that the Palestinians are a semitic group, I don't think that follows...
Don't be obtuse.
Sorry SDW but in my opinion you have it wrong.
I, and my ilk(!), don't deny Israel's right to exist.
OK.
Yes, you do.
The Israelis do not engage in terrorism.
Neither do the US Armed Forces. I'm starting to think you don't know what terrorism is.
They are accidental and unavoidable, especially when civilians are used as human shields. But terrorism is the deliberate targeting of known innocent civilians. Israel does not do this. Hamas does. End of story.
I'm not sure if it was or wasn't. I do know you're dealing with a totally different situation there. First, it was in the context of a total war..against a tyrant who wished to dominate the entire world, killed Jews by the millions and refused to capitulate. You're also talking about an era where "dumb bombs" were the norm, and there was a very different attitude concerning bombing cities. Whether or not it was justifiable at the time I don't know. But I don't think it was "terrorism" per se. Probably a moot point as it's a completely different situation. Either way, you implicitly comparing IDF actions to the firebombing of Dresden is laughably absurd.
The Israelis do not engage in terrorism.
It is common for state authorities, and those that sympathise with them, to refer to acts of aggression against them as terrorism. Often the aim is to delegitimise those acts of aggression.
Neither side cares about killing civilians, period.
Both sides use whatever means that they have available to pursue their goals. The Israelis have technologically "advanced" killing machines that are more accurate than their foes'.
Perhaps we should provide Hamas with the same weapons and allow them to train a proper army. If they continue to resort to blowing up buses rather than targeting the state apparatus then we can condemn them. Until such a time we have an asymetric situation and should judge both parties in context.
Why do you comment about the Jews complaining about why are they against the people of Israel? Who are Jews themselves in your country.Makes no sense at all.
Sorry, i couldn't quite follow your point.
I was responding to floorjack's suggestion that anyone criticising Israel must be anti-semitic. I guess that he is using the term in the looser sense of the meaning, i.e. anti-Jewish. I was trying to demonstrate that he was incorrect, unless he believes that Jewish people can be anti-Jewish.
I don't understand your hostility to my post.
Sorry, i couldn't quite follow your point.
I was responding to floorjack's suggestion that anyone criticising Israel must be anti-semitic. I guess that he is using the term in the looser sense of the meaning, i.e. anti-Jewish. I was trying to demonstrate that he was incorrect, unless he believes that Jewish people can be anti-Jewish.
I don't understand your hostility to my post.
Once again stop being obtuse. Words have meanings that can be looked up if you are ignorant. Trying to remake the meaning doesn't make you smart or clever.
Finally.
Does that mean it's OK to engage in terrorism?
Even if we accept that number, so what? That doesn't make the Israeli actions less justified, nor does it make them "terrorism." Does that fact that Hamas stations rockets near playgrounds matter? Hamas is responsible for the civilian deaths being so high, not Israel.
Maybe it's time to stop sticking to labels as an excuse, and recognize evil acts for what they are, whether we call them terrorism or not.
So Israel's actions are "evil?" Wow. A uniformed military force responding to rocket attacks on its civilians by targeting military/terror targets results in civilian casualties, and it's "evil?"
Being anti-zionist or not defending aggreesive behaviour does not make one anti-semitic.
The majority of Jewish people that I know here in London abhore what the Israelis have been doing over the years
1. How can the Israeli actions be construed as "aggressive?" They responded to rocket attacks by surgically targeting a terrorist leader. Hamas retaliated by launching rockets into civilian areas deliberately. Israel responded by attacking military/terror targets, such as rocket launch sites.
2. Well, that's a reliable statistic.
It is common for state authorities, and those that sympathise with them, to refer to acts of aggression against them as terrorism. Often the aim is to delegitimise those acts of aggression.
Terrorism is terrorism, period.
Neither side cares about killing civilians, period.
That is demonstrably false. Israel does not target civilians. Hamas does. End of story.
Yes...one side wants to push Israel into the sea, and the other defends its right to exist.
Good. Given the powers that surround them, that's necessary.
That has to be one of the most bizarre suggestions on this topic I've ever read. You're honestly suggesting that if we give Hamas weapons and allow them to train a "proper" army, they would only attempt to target those men and machines in the military? First, you're dreaming. Their propensity to kill innocent civilians deliberately shows they will use ANY means to destroy Israel. Secondly, who decides when their army is "proper?" Third, what happens when Israel annihilates that army? Is that the end? Do we have a surrender ceremony on a battleship or something?
Once again stop being obtuse. Words have meanings that can be looked up if you are ignorant. Trying to remake the meaning doesn't make you smart or clever.
You seem to have me confused with somebody else.
Chastise me if you will but it does make you look "sequentially challenged".
If you bother to re-read the previous posts, you will see that I correctly assumed that you were using the term anti-semantic as a means to explain negative press in Europe.
My alternative interpretation of the word was a response to a reply from another poster
I might not be clever but at least i am smart enough to know that it was Groakes' reply to your post that started the exercise in throwing your toys out of the pram.. Incidentally whilst i suspect that he was being mischievous it is worth noting that the the majority of Israelis do not have a semetic lineage, that they are relative newcomers to the region.
.
There are plenty of Jews who hate their own kind. Take the Orthodox they despise other Jews who do not hold up to their standard of living and their traditions.I have seen this for myself years ago where I was born in NYC. They hate certain type if Israeli's also in Israel.Call it prejudice if you want be it is there among the Jewish people.
There are plenty of Jews who hate their own kind. Take the Orthodox they despise other Jews who do not hold up to their standard of living and their traditions.I have seen this for myself years ago where I was born in NYC. They hate certain type if Israeli's also in Israel.Call it prejudice if you want be it is there among the Jewish people.
Whilst you have a point about various sects within religions disliking the practices of others you are deviating from the point. Floorjack was using the term anti-semetic, the people that you refer to are not anti-semetic (by Floorjack's definition), they just prefer to open their eggs from the other end. By the same token the Jewish people that I have spoken to are not anti-semetic and some of them are not anti-zionist/anti-israeli. They just dislike what they see as acts of asymetric aggression by the Israeli state.
Don't be intellectually dishonest. You know full well that those who accuse Israel of "terrorism" are not referring to fringe groups of settlers. They are referring to official government policy and military actions.
