Originally Posted by sammi jo
So, in your mind, all the facts, statistics and hard evidence of terrorism, the deliberate targeting of civilians, and committing war crimes on the part of the Israeli military, are not relevant - and only your opinion counts?
Go ahead. Show me evidence that Israeli military deliberately targets innocent civilians. Show me the evidence of "war crimes." Can't wait.
Originally Posted by BR
Palestinian insurgents and the Israeli government are both acting like complete dicks hurting their respective nations. I think that Israel's response has been vastly disproportionate--the statistics absolutely support that notion.
So? The entire idea of proportionate military responses is stupid.
A disproportionate response does not, however, give license to the Palestinians to fire rockets at civilians.
Having rockets fired at civilians doesn't give license to Israel to kill ten or a hundredfold more Palestinian civilians
You're drawing a false equivalence there. Israel does not deliberately target known innocent civilians. They are going after military targets and terrorist leaders. Unlike the Palestinians, they are not launching strikes on busses and pizza shops.
Israel has the missile defense system to protect them, but it won't solve their terrible PR problem--they just flat out look like bullies with the kill ratio so drastically in their favor. They should stop the encroaching settlements, stop killing civilians, and stop giving the Palestinian extremists excuses to recruit and retaliate.
I actually agree with that. My complaint with Israel has always been that they sometimes seem ready to poke the bear. Right or wrong, they should stop the expansion of settlements in areas that they know will be provocative.
Originally Posted by groakes
OK then, Definitions of terrorism:
Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms. US Department of Defense 2005.
No mention of civilians there at all.. What you do have is the use of violence to create fear in order to achieve an ideological goal. So, bombing Gaza in the knowledge that civilians WOULD definitely be killed is unlawful and intended to coerce and therefore fits the bill so far as the US DoD definition of terrorism.
Yes, I'm quite aware of how the left twists itself into a pretzel trying to justify Palestinian actions while condemning Israeli actions. Every intellectually honest person knows that Israel does not engage in terrorism. Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians in pursuit of a political goal, no matter what your little dictionary says.
So! What should Israel do? Remove the blockade on Gaza,
Why, so more weapons can flow?
stop illegal settlements,
Tell me how they are "illegal" in their own country.
negotiate on the creation of the Palestinian state
They've tried that for at least 20 years. In 1995, Arafat was offered 95% of what he wanted, and rejected it. The Palestinians, on the whole, do not want a peaceful two state solution.
engage in dialogue with Iran
To what end? Iran is incredibly hostile and has called for Israel's destruction time and time again. They are led by religious zealots who are exceptionally anti-semitic. Please.
and stop acting like the bully of the Middle East. For a start
Ummm...does Israel launch rockets over borders for no reason? Does Israel blow up busses and movie theaters and outdoor markets?
Yes, Berg...because our objection means we don't want people to be free. <slaps forehead>
Originally Posted by hungover
In what way does it cheapen my argument? You denied that Israel engages in terrorist activities I showed you evidence to suggest otherwise. You choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your arguement. Even the largest supporter of Israel, the USA, accepts that Israel engages in terrorist activities.
Let us assume that the UN does grant Palestine recognition as a state later today. Does this mean that you will drop the terrorist label whenever the Palestinians fire their crude motars?
1. Israel does not engage in terrorism. Period.
2. The United States does not "accept" that Israel engages in terrorist activities.
3. Of course I won't, not if they are deliberately targeted at civilians.