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Windows 8 sales fall short of Microsoft's internal projections - Page 4

post #121 of 149
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Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 

What does POSIX have to do with anything? Otherwise, Visual Studio is the best IDE around if you like that kind of thing (I don't, since I am old skool, but many people do).

 

 

You don't seam to be old skool enough for me 1wink.gif.  I think POSIX OS like BSD, Linux and OSX are better Swiss Army Knife in terms of tools than Windows as POSIX comes with a full featured userland.  You got choice of IDEs and a fully scriptable shell with powerfull tools like rsync, awk, grep and scp that you can pipe and script together.  You got real logs with real and useful informations not just a generic: contact your administrator error message. Beside, visual Studio does not come with Windows and Xcode - Clang have nothing to envy from Microsoft' IDE


Edited by BigMac2 - 11/21/12 at 7:28pm
post #122 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 

You won't really get much argument from me on the unix programming model -- this is why I started using Macs in the first place (they are unix machines which are actually polished, so for laptops way better than linux boxes, for back end computing I did and still do use linux). On the other hand, Objective C is really quite ancient technology (admittedly with very nice libraries), C#/F# is the only really modern programming language supported by a major OS vendor. (I don't like IDEs because they don't support the unix model, btw, but my few experiments with VS seem to indicate that if I did like that kind of thing, that's the kind of thing I might like...)
 

I know Posix define the unix programming model, but I've taught we were talking about tools (Swiss army knife analogy) which come standard with the OS and Windows being the most anemic of them all is where my plastic scissors analogy comes from.  Beside, how do you define modern programming language? C# is a late follower of the Smalltalk message passing paradigm mean to fill the gap with others "modern programming language" like Java and Objective-C, and .NET libraries still have infancy issue like breaking binary compatibility at each major release, so users need to install and maintain multiple concurrent version of .NET runtime library for running any software.  BTW only Apple can pretend to have a unified IDE across all their products (Phone, Tablet and Desktop OS), Microsoft in another hand, with Windows 8, Windows RT, Windows Phone 7.8, Windows Phone 8 and the Xbox, got 5 distincts userland for developers to juggle with.


Edited by BigMac2 - 11/22/12 at 6:17pm
post #123 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorpit View Post

Also to the one poster that said they purchased a large number of Windows 7 licenses for future use, Microsoft does have a program that allows a user of any OS to down grade to a previous version of any supported OS.  That being said, I see Windows 7 as being the new XP.  I deal with several business that will be exercising the backward licensing option and have no interest in Windows 8.

If you are referring to my post I only bought 2 licenses as we are a small department and mostly Linux and Mac except for our accounting machines which run XP right now. I always build our Windows machines from scratch mostly because I want them to last. Although the high end Dells and HP are probably built really well I still prefer non proprietary components. I use only very high quality parts starting with Supermicro boards. Because I build them myself I always buy Windows OEM. Although I'm sure it is possible to buy Windows 8 OEM, I would prefer to install the OS I intend on using rather than install Windows 8 and then downgrade it as I suspect it leaves a lot of garbage behind which I would rather avoid. Like you I think Windows 7 will remain the standard for quite some time.

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post #124 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

C#/F# is the only really modern programming language supported by a major OS vendor. (I don't like IDEs because they don't support the unix model, btw, but my few experiments with VS seem to indicate that if I did like that kind of thing, that's the kind of thing I might like...)
 

I suppose C#, F# and VS are considered more modern but I have no interest in targeting .Net so for me they are useless.

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post #125 of 149
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Originally Posted by mstone View Post

If you are referring to my post I only bought 2 licenses as we are a small department and mostly Linux and Mac except for our accounting machines which run XP right now. I always build our Windows machines from scratch mostly because I want them to last. Although the high end Dells and HP are probably built really well I still prefer non proprietary components. I use only very high quality parts starting with Supermicro boards. Because I build them myself I always buy Windows OEM. Although I'm sure it is possible to buy Windows 8 OEM, I would prefer to install the OS I intend on using rather than install Windows 8 and then downgrade it as I suspect it leaves a lot of garbage behind which I would rather avoid. Like you I think Windows 7 will remain the standard for quite some time.

I don't think you can downgrade a windows installation in any means other than a wipe and reinstall.
Edited by JeffDM - 11/22/12 at 2:21pm
post #126 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Go to Dell, look at alienware boxen, note that you get MUCH more bang for the buck from them then from the iMac. Unfortunately for you, clue must be bought separately.

On the last sentence, you lost the argument by making a personal attack.

Even then, I'm not convinced you even read the comment thoroughly before rejecting it. Among other things, often, included monitors with most desktop packages are TN rather than IPS. Then there's the fact that Windows machines come preinstalled with dread.
Edited by JeffDM - 11/22/12 at 2:39pm
post #127 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


You're apparently right. Your comment is news to me though. One method requires a registry edit, two others require running third party software to set it up.

 

In other words, a hack.

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post #128 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I suppose C#, F# and VS are considered more modern but I have no interest in targeting .Net so for me they are useless.

 

Wrong. You can program your iDevice in C#/F#: http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
 

Terrific another obscure framework with the ability to port to different platforms. Impressive. I could also program for iDevices in Adobe Flash but I'd rather use the tools that are specifically designed for the task at hand including a really nice simulator.

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post #129 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 

 
I am not going to get into a programming language debate, but C# is far superior to Java, and Objective-C is modern if you define "today" to be "November 23, 1986". Yes, they have garbage collection now. Whoopee! I have nothing against Apple's IDE, but Apple has historically made their tools harder to use, perhaps to keep out the riffraff, so VS is more pleasant to use.
 

It seam you're understanding of the history of programming languages is pretty narrowing to M$ VS only, calling C# a far superior language over anything else is baseless. The "modernity" of a programming language is not define by it's age but by its objects interaction paradigm and features. No sane developers taught about being a newborn language is a plus, every solid programming language need decades of refinement and proofing. Microsoft was only 30years late to trash their VB ugliness and to jump in the Smalltalk wagon. 

 

In your other baseless claims, I'm really puzzled, do you really believe Windows' tools are easer to use than Apple ones?  Wow, I think you're too young to have ever seen ResEdit, MPW or Hypercard.  Besides, originally the discussion was about Tools and not IDE, now point me a good built-in tool on Windows?  Anything like rsync, grep, awk, scp,  built-in in Windows? NOPE!


Edited by BigMac2 - 11/23/12 at 10:12am
post #130 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't think you can downgrade a windows installation in any means other than a wipe and reinstall.

I have not investigated it. I assumed it was something like Windows 7 with XP mode. Since my licenses are always OEM I don't think I qualify for MS support such downgrading the license whether I have to wipe the disk or not. I'll be fine with the two extra Windows 7 licenses I have. Perhaps in three or four years they will release something worthwhile upgrading to. In the mean time this will hold me over.

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post #131 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post
 
I am sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities, but the post I was responding to was clueless. As for "dread", I run linux on my PCs. With modern distros it installs in no time at all. I am typing this on a MBP, and have six iDevices within three feet of me, but Apple has never made competitive compute servers (needless to say, Dell is not the low cost vendor -- my point was that even relatively high markup PCs are much cheaper than comparable Macs).
 

Here we go again. The Windows apologist with no less than six iDevices within his reach plus a MBP. Why are you concerned with cheaper solutions when you obviously have more than a few thousand dollars worth of Apple gear? And since Windows and Linux are also your preferred platforms I would assume you have another few thousand dollars worth of servers and such. So why are we talking about choosing cheaper solutions? Mac people choose Mac because they like the hardware and OS integration and the machines are plenty powerful so that is not an issue. Even if they are slightly more expensive they have a very good value / cost ratio. You get what you pay for, like an Apple Store where you can go if you need any support and fantastic resale value. There are many other benefits to owning a Mac, but I'm preaching to the choir since you're a Mac guy too, right?

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post #132 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 
I am sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities, but the post I was responding to was clueless.

You made zero response to any of the specific items stated, then went on to say they're clueless. It's a non-answer followed by a misdirection. We're all aware you can buy an x.x GHz computer from competition for a lot less, but value isn't always about counting gigahertz and gigabytes and dividing by money. There are other things that make the whole equation. As it is, I powered down an HP xw8x00 workstation earlier this year and do all my CAD/CAM work perfectly fine on an iMac. Even if some of it is through virtualization, it's just two or three apps, everything else is on OS X.

Quote:
As for "dread", I run linux on my PCs. With modern distros it installs in no time at all. I am typing this on a MBP, and have six iDevices within three feet of me, but Apple has never made competitive compute servers (needless to say, Dell is not the low cost vendor -- my point was that even relatively high markup PCs are much cheaper than comparable Macs).

Apple really doesn't compete in the server space, that's kind of irrelevant. Yeah, they have the pancake server, but that's not intended for computation. I'd even say given the Mac Pro that they've effectively bowed out of the workstation market as well. So yeah, there's many places where you can't use Apple products.

I'm curious why you would own (or pretend to own) Apple products if you don't seem to think they're worth it. Something doesn't really add up.
Edited by JeffDM - 11/23/12 at 11:58am
post #133 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 I am talking about cheaper solutions because I do a LOT of computing (CPU/GPU, you name it). So, if I (or my funding agency :)) have N dollars to spend, I can get many more cycles out of whitebox hardware than out of the aesthetically pleasing but expensive Apple kit. This argument does not apply for devices I have to hold in my hand several hours a day, and for iDevices, often drop on the floor -- they are very well built, and don't break.

Apple doesn't make anything comparable to a generic white box so why do you insist on comparing it to an iMac? iMac is a consumer or pro-sumer machine if you are in the graphics business, but aside from perhaps the ease of upgradeability as the primary advantage, by the time you add in everything that comes standard on an iMac, your generic white box will be nearly the same price, a lot uglier and it's resale value almost nil. So that isn't much of a comparison either. If the white box is just a server then, again, what is the point in comparing to an iMac? The iMac is designed to be used and directly interacted with for several hours a day just like an iDevice, hence, they make them esthetically pleasing.

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post #134 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 
MonoTouch IS specifically designed for the task at hand, and does include a nice simulator. However, you have obviously made up your mind already.
 

Just curious how do you provision a device in a third party platform like mono?

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post #135 of 149
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Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Just curious how do you provision a device in a third party platform like mono?

 

You might want to look here:
 
 
(it's a little dated, but not too bad).
 

So with all of your promotion of the platform, you have no actual first hand experience?

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post #136 of 149
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Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

So with all of your promotion of the platform, you have no actual first hand experience?

 

??? That's quite a leap of logic.
 

Simple question. If you do not know how to provision a device under mono just say so.

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post #137 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Simple question. If you do not know how to provision a device under mono just say so.

Short answer: you need to use Xcode to use monotouch, so it is more or less the usual way.

Long answer: http://docs.xamarin.com/ios/guides/getting_started/device_provisioning

Do I get my consulting fee now?

Ok got it. You have to use Apple's free Xcode (+$99 developer) to make the $1000 mono work.

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post #138 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Ok got it. You have to use Apple's free Xcode (+$99 developer) to make the $1000 mono work.

 

Thank Apple for choosing to have an iron grip on the development process re Xcode (you don't need any helper apps for Mono Android). As for the $1000, that's for the "enterprise" license. If you are developing apps for profit, then $1000 is somewhere around 2 days of programmer time + overhead. If the tool makes you more efficient by 20%, you win big. 
 

Interesting... As we peel back the layers we see that the principle purpose of this IDE is to recruit iOS programmers to port their apps to Android.

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post #139 of 149
I want this Mono as much as I want this Mono.

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post #140 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 
principle->principal, 
But since your principal purpose seems to be to trash talk, I hope someone else is following this discussion, since you are not.
 

The long time regulars here at AI usually don't bother pointing out typographical or grammatical errors of posters who are making reasonable replies. Perhaps because iOS auto correct is not as effective as it should be at times and errors are common, but your correction adds nothing to your argument.

 

I have certainly not studied this mono in depth but from a cursory review I am rather skeptical both in the price and lack of any advantage other than providing C#/.Net developers with a familiar environment, which doesn't apply to me in the least, so as I said earlier, it is completely useless as I have zero interest in .Net. The ownership of the company is also quite vague as well so I would not want to invest any effort in mastering the learning curve only to find that the entire platform might be abandoned without notice due to lack of official major OS publisher support. For the time being I will stick with Xcode as it is guaranteed to work with iOS which is the only target that I am addressing.

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post #141 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The long time regulars here at AI usually don't bother pointing out typographical or grammatical errors of posters who are making reasonable replies. Perhaps because iOS auto correct is not as effective as it should be at times and errors are common, but your correction adds nothing to your argument.


I'd say it takes away from any valid argument they might have had. It's a sign the poster has no valid argument when they are reduced to a simple grammatical error or make fun of a screen name.


PS: I also dislike when people use Crapple, Samesung, Micro$haft, etc. One should at least try to be original or clever if one is so inclined.

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post #142 of 149
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Originally Posted by igriv View Post

 
Pointing out people's grammatical errors has a very clear agenda (I only speak for myself).
 
1. It impugns the mis-speaker's intelligence.
 
2. It impugns the mis-speaker's level of attention to detail. 
 
Is it a low blow? Absolutely! If you look at the last N responses of my correspondent, you will see he was guilty of trying to land many such, and I just got fed up. I will probably be reincarnated as a cat.
 

1) No, it doesn't. Not proofreading does not mean one isn't intelligent. To even suggest such a thing clearly shows you don't understand what intelligence is.

2) I was going to say "Reincarnated as a cat? Why, do you like acting like a pussy?" but you probably would get offended by my clown humour.

3) I didn't proofread my post so any grammatical errors must mean I'm dum D-U-M dum.

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post #143 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv View Post

As for English errors, this is a pet peeve of mine (that people dumb themselves down to the level of their spelling correction engine, which thinks that both principal and principle are english words, among many other such things). Or maybe I am just a pedant.
 

Thank you again for pointing that out. I will make a note. It is sort of a tradition around here, when you critically correct someone's English you invariably make a grammatical  error of your own.

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post #144 of 149

I have read the short discussion which appears to be equally divided pro and con but some of the comments serve to reinforce my opinion that it is best for me to stick with Xcode. If you like Mono for iOS development I hope it doesn't come back to bite you in the ass.

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post #145 of 149

So, long story short, never spell anything incorrectly or use improper grammar, otherwise yada yada yada; you get the gist.

 

I do honestly love how these articles that are so rooted in common sense that they needn't even be written always manage to fly WAY off topic. But we've fallen from anything at all computer related to teetering on the edge of a thinly-veiled insult laden discussion here.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #146 of 149
This is my first post after reading apple insider for over 10 years.

Just my two cent (by the way, I use real name unlike most people here that is talking a lot of ...)

So you can check my IMDB. I do make movie sometime for fun. Yes I was really piss off with final cut x when it came out (I still using 7 but that will change soon)

And my day job is actually a software developer. So I guess I could give another 2 cents.

Xcode sucks most of the time. But nobody actually use it as an IDE. I build iOS and ipad stuff on other IDE then by the time it's ready. Compile in Xcode.

Since its a free tool. Can you really bitch about it that much? Your developer license is for distribution as well as testing (give you access to latest software) like some one else said here. The price is about two days of developer's pay. So no biggy here. Once you put the whole infrastructure to deliver and charging and what not no top. That really is peanut.

Lets go back the fiasco of final cut x. Apple has never been great at getting something right the first time. The first mac I ever use was the original macintosh. I didn't own it, my cousin did. And that was pretty much the first machine in the world that support Chinese input. Anyway. I am drifting off again. But as a very long time apple user. I could safely say they never get it right the first time. So I am waiting for the Retina MacBook Pro v.2 1smile.gif

But once they get it right - they get it spectacularly right. iPhone came out without 3G , no multi tasking, no API. But once they figured it out - that is 10 billion dollars business for third party developers. And then the iPad one ... And the example can go on and on.

And this is happening for final cut x - lots of people bitch about they didn't have this or didn't come with that. Yes it's true but what they did give you underneath. That is something else entirely different. I am still playing with the idea of writing plugin for final cut x, it has a beautiful api sub system. Apple know their strength was never in pro application development. Why not give people a platform and let third party make a living out of it. You will see more of this soon. I think aperture is going the same direction. Lets hope the 4 come out soon.

Perhaps you will say, the other guys ... Lets take adobe. I use After effects all the time. But once you have worked with it for over a year. You know, the limit been reached. And third party plugins come in to solve the problem. After effects probably has one of the most active and diverse plugin markets. All because it has a very good api (you could just write short piece of code in Javascript to do some stuff.)

As for development. Is there anything better than a true unix core with a beautiful interface on top plus the ability to run any OS on top for testing? And to those who are windows die hard fan ... Well, I don't have much to say. But for Linux people? Did you know you master of universe has been developing the last few version of Linux kernel on - a mac? Yes he didn't run OSX. But the machine is reliable, solid and quiet piece of kit.

I could go on and on, but I don't want to bore you guys.

Lets conclude my first post - apple was never into mass market b.s. this is what stock brokers want you to believe. They are into building the best thing they could. And hopefully somehow some where someone will appreciate it. And to all those people keep comparing a Mac with a (insert the other PC brand here). Why don't you go to their forum? Deep down you want it but you just too afraid to be the only guy in the room using it. I was there for a long time, and in many way I still am. But now I am just a drop of water in the ocean.

It has been a great ride. And I am looking forward to more fantastic things from Apple.
post #147 of 149
Supplement 1smile.gif

I forgot about android. It will be incomplete if I don't include something about android.

I own three Android phones. Not because I want to. But thanks for all the manufacturers are in the interest of "making your life easier". I have to buy one V1.6 then another one V2.2 then another one V.4

I won't even going to start about the v.3 that is not suppose to be use on smartphone ...

Market share is one thing. Sounds all rosy on paper. Again this is what stock brokers want you to believe ( perhaps what I a going to say is going to make a lot of people unhappy. But I want you to be clear that , I have no good things to say about stock brokers. Especially those came straight out from uni. Have they ever done a real job? I have more respect to the cleaning lady than some stock broker. I rest my case.)

Anyway, the basic principle of software economic is - build it once and sell as many copies as possible. Can someone convince me this is the case going to happen in android market anytime soon? The great man said it just before his passing. Fragmentation is going to kill android. Google has no control over what their partners are doing behind their back. And all those Chinese knock off just going to make things worse.

And this is why Microsoft is building Surface.

p.s. l also own 3GS, 4 and 4s (was robbed earlier this year) I gave my Mom the 4 and as a 60+ Chinese lady whom English ability is about "hi" and "bye". She could share her grand children picture with me, half way around the world. that count for something, right?

Apple was never building things for the cutting edge few. So please stop whining about no i7, fusion drive is nothing new and whatnot. Go build yourself a hacintosh , it's fast and cheap! But guess what apple is doing? They are realising all those thing we saw in sci-movies. A small step at a time, but we get there without knowing it.
post #148 of 149

@Joelchu

 

Good couple posts. Thx.

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post #149 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoda View Post

Sinofsky shouldn't have been fired, Ballmer should be. What good thing has he done since taking over?

 

Well, he's been great for Apple's and Google's growth and success, to name two.....

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