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Microsoft to raise user licensing fees in response to 'BYOD' movement - Page 3

post #81 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

no one - I just happen to have real world experience in the enterprise, I am trying to add my insight to the conversation. and for the record, Apple makes good stuff, I like OSX and ran it till a couple weeks ago when I retired my MacBook bc it can no longer run modern OSX, I do plan to buy a new mac in the next few months and have sold my family on Macs and iPhones, I am buying my mom an ipad for Christmas, and so on...so I am far from an Apple hater or a shill...

 

Ok, It's clear I shouldn't have asked the question.

In response to your previous post: if you must have your databases (or other services) online and responsive all the time the software should make it redundant not the hardware. This means that you can use relatively cheap systems and swap one in case of failure, ask Google for example.

 

J.

post #82 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


Honestly? I'm yet to see a person that I know to be using Windows 8 and hating it. Beside having it on half our computers, Win 8 machines have started leaking into our corporate users. Since all of them are using business apps which run on desktop, all of Metro they see is Start screen, which some like, and some are indifferent. No haters yet. After that, business is as usual. If you ignore meddling with Windows (which corporate users don't do anyway), using your applications on Windows 8 really does not differ from using them on Windows 7.
Beside that, 8 boots much faster than 7, seems to be very stable, gives nice perks like multi-boot from VHDs, handles updates better and have number of tweaks compared to Windows 7. Beside agreeing or disagreeing with visual dissonance between Metro and desktop, and lack of Aero on desktop, there is nothing for users to hate. And those are visual, not functional "issues".

 

 

Wow, then you must not be hearing correctly.  I work at a mid size law firm in the IT dept.  Guess what, 4 lawyers hate the new Win8, and one secretary say's it's interesting.  None of the users here have stated about liking it at all.  I guess all the major experts of UI design stating that the UI is totally backwards and is counter productive is just a fluke?  Yes, I have read multiple articles from multiple people in the UI field about this.  Win8 is a major failure on desktops period.  Major base of those desktops are PC gamers…. you know the 12 Million WOW users (World of Warcraft), and all the other games running as well.  What MS is going to do is push those users aside for the what 500K to 1 million tablet users they may get, just because they want to to “tabletize” windows?  Smart, the needs of the few outdo the needs of the many.  Yes Win8 can run most stuff Win7 can, but we seen this in the past of the kernel change, just for the fun of it.  Who is to say that SP1 or even Win9 next year or two don’t fully tabelize it and kill the PC game industry.  Blizzard will not be to happy about that.   Just like upgraded a user from Office 2003 to Office 2010, and she complained about the font being different.  I just explained it’s just MS doing what it likes to do, change things to what they want regardless of what the user wants. 

 

As for topic, yes, this will make many corps rethink when to upgrade, if to upgrade at all.  Now you have to pay more money, great. Just what our Finance Committee loves to hear.   It’s how do I still work for the least amount of money to spend.  This will drive some to look at alternatives.  Just like Win8 will drive some to MAC.  If they have to relearn a whole new UI, then might as well try a MAC, since they are seeing some of their co-workers still with the same unit for years and still running without issues.  Esp the ones that felt that way with Vista, new UI, that went to MAC.  They start using and liking for personal use, they will start pushing for business use.  

You don't want to make me curmudgeon, you would not like me when I am curmudgeon.  I go all caps, bold, with a 72PT font and green lettering.  

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You don't want to make me curmudgeon, you would not like me when I am curmudgeon.  I go all caps, bold, with a 72PT font and green lettering.  

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post #83 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

... I am saying that to say MS is doomed is just as short sighted as those who said Apple was doomed.

 

That might be true if there were similarities between the companies, their positions in the industry and/or the people running them. But there aren't, so your argument by analogy falls more than a bit flat. Without radical change at Microsoft, they will not only become increasingly irrelevant, but they'll very soon find that the foundation has eroded out from under them. Better analogies for Microsoft's situation are Nokia, RIM and IBM. IBM, however, managed to reinvent themselves, while continuing to syphon mainframe revenues. Microsoft may not be that lucky because, even though it seems they have a tight "lock-in" with their customers, that lock-in is increasingly illusory. This current step indicates that they overestimate their customer's dependency on them in the long run. 


Edited by anonymouse - 11/27/12 at 7:38am
post #84 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I don't think it will go well in the long run. Before the iPad was ever announced I was on these forums adamantly stating that any tablet by Apple not use Mac OS and be successful. I stated that it had to be an iOS-based OS with a UI to fit the device. I think this where MS doesn't get it or simply can't let go. You make your IDE and OS work well between the OSes you have for different platforms but you make the UI feel natural and idealized for each device type, not try to make the same one work across all devices.
I've also been using Win Server 2012*. I think that can fair better but that's because admins will know there way around the OS and users will likely only access shares and services.
* I use VMWare Fusion on my Mac but since that app is a consumer app, unlike Citrix XenServer it doesn't create virtual networks that allow multiple Win servers to interact in a domain. That's no longer an issue with this free utility: http://nickapedia.com/2012/01/10/breaking-new-ground-an-uber-tool-for-the-mac/
I do look at boot times, but mostly as an indication of core efficiency changes between OSes. If the OS starts up 50% faster it's likely other areas of the code base have also been more efficient.

Windows boot times are more affected by the number of services and drivers you have to load at boot time. Keep those to an absolute minimum.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #85 of 122

Windows 8 is great. It's like a wedding of great features.

 

post #86 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrosy View Post

Goodluck runnig your ERP systems with intergrated security model on your $20 license. Active Directory for one is so pervasive across the corporate landscape its very difficult to achieve the same with other tools.

The unified back office make repetitive tasks easier. Picture you Mac server back end... now ad 30 SQL databases 3 exchages servers, multiple SAP instances and 10000+ user base , a mixed bag of OSes and LANs all over the world administered from a central location. Try administer that on your $20 a server infrastructure and see how far you get.

Obviously nothing is impossible and if a corporate was to ditch Windows as a back office system. Apple will be the last place they will look.... there is a reason Linux controls +90% of the supercomputer market the rest shared amongst other unix flavours( not OSX ) and WinTel.



to bad... when you use windows server stuff, they include/require you to be "roofied", thus can not Adequately changeover your infrastructure without some serious knowledge and perseverance...
thus, those that use linux/unix from database/server stuff, knew the Precautions against getting "roofied" /Facetious

"Once you go Windows... You don't go back" ... and microsoft knows this , along with the fact that when you have a Critical computing infrastructure in your the company, you don't mess with it... and you are stuck.
post #87 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

Forgive my lack of clarity, I am not saying Apple is doomed, far from it - I am saying that to say MS is doomed is just as short sighted as those who said Apple was doomed.

Steve Ballmer hopes that nobody remembers that the same people who got them into the current situation are not the people that will get them out of it.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #88 of 122
And thus opens the door for competition to undercut Microsoft, saving companies money from both Microsoft licensing fees and purchasing specific devices for their employees.

It's like raising taxes %u2013 higher costs/taxes just motivate people to get around it in more creative ways rather than just pay it.

Microsoft is opening the door to its own demise more and more . . . .
post #89 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Windows boot times are more affected by the number of services and drivers you have to load at boot time. Keep those to an absolute minimum.

Sure, but when you take two different OSes on the same HW with the same basic setup and get very different start up times you can gauge whether an OS's underlying code was updated for the better or not.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #90 of 122
@island hermit,

We usually see eye-to-eye but on this issue I just don't see enough data to make the claim that Apple messed up. It's certainly possible Apple messed up here, but the odd would say that Apple ha made more mistakes in ways we've never even considered because the mistake isn't something we'd notice or the issue had plenty of other pluses that could absurd any ripples before it got to the end user.

All we know is that Apple made a claim and they so far been on point (and I think it's a safe bet that the 27" iMac will ship in December).

Then there is the fact that this isn't the first time this has happened with Apple. As previously noted it's happened under Steve Jobs many times. Again, we don't have enough info to know what series of event led to this unusual release date and any speculation as to why it happened and who is to blame is just that, speculation.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #91 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Nikon these comments (especially words I highlighted in bold) bothered  me, since I read in a few articles, where corporate World are not ready to upgrade to Windows 8 and their give negative feedback on metro style touchscreen interface. So I thought before anyone starts stating that I am pulling words out of the air, I found the article which I had read, see below.

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/76455.html

Small business maybe migrating, but established business are not moved from Windows 7 and some not even from XP!

BTW: I got my first blue screen from Windows 8 today, well not blue, but the bloody software stopped working and I had to physically pull my computer plug out the socket. I think my iMac had indigestion.

Corporate is slow to upgrade in general, as it requires a lot of resources - time and money, with constant danger of unexpected downtime due to unforeseen reasons, regardless of how well transition was planned - to roll such update across the company.

I live and work in New Zealand, where companies are much smaller and inertia is equally not as pronounced as in really large corporates.

We have moved all our large customers to Windows 7 over last two years, which we consider huge success (even in smaller and more dynamic environment such as NZ is). I'm not expecting them to upgrade company-wide again this soon, regardless of how good or bad 8 would be for them.

But. Some of them will allow employees - especially management - to bring their own laptops and have them configured as required. We are insisting on standardised machines for main workforce - currently those are current HP EliteBooks P for laptops, and some execs see them too bulky. This is where 8 machines are trickling into our bigger users. Small users are buying their own machines outside of channel supplies, so that is another way of 8 to "sneak" in business - again, this is for company I work for, and scenario we are facing.
post #92 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I don't think it will go well in the long run. Before the iPad was ever announced I was on these forums adamantly stating that any tablet by Apple not use Mac OS and be successful. I stated that it had to be an iOS-based OS with a UI to fit the device. I think this where MS doesn't get it or simply can't let go. You make your IDE and OS work well between the OSes you have for different platforms but you make the UI feel natural and idealized for each device type, not try to make the same one work across all devices.
I've also been using Win Server 2012*. I think that can fair better but that's because admins will know there way around the OS and users will likely only access shares and services.
* I use VMWare Fusion on my Mac but since that app is a consumer app, unlike Citrix XenServer it doesn't create virtual networks that allow multiple Win servers to interact in a domain. That's no longer an issue with this free utility: http://nickapedia.com/2012/01/10/breaking-new-ground-an-uber-tool-for-the-mac/
I do look at boot times, but mostly as an indication of core efficiency changes between OSes. If the OS starts up 50% faster it's likely other areas of the code base have also been more efficient.

Possible. I'm not saying that Metro on non-touch devices is the best way to go. Or the only way to go. I'm just saying it is functional and, short of some eye-candy (at least for people who cannot go without Aero) is improvement over 7. Personally, I was expecting MS to offer a way for users to lock into Desktop mode - business users in particular are unlikely to use built-in Mail, Calendar, People... and some will not even be allowed to freely download apps, so Metro doesn't bring anything to them. But I can also see people completely living in Metro and using only snack-size apps for their mailing, photos, videos, music, social needs... and I think that, for such people at least, there is potential benefit in unified GUI across devices. If nothing else, I'm expecting MS to benefit from all that Metro exposure.
post #93 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkBlade View Post


Wow, then you must not be hearing correctly.  I work at a mid size law firm in the IT dept.  Guess what, 4 lawyers hate the new Win8, and one secretary say's it's interesting.  None of the users here have stated about liking it at all.  I guess all the major experts of UI design stating that the UI is totally backwards and is counter productive is just a fluke?  Yes, I have read multiple articles from multiple people in the UI field about this.  Win8 is a major failure on desktops period. 

I cannot answer you this one. Coincidently, we don't have any lawers among our customers. Maybe we are just lucky with more reasonable, down to earth users..?

Windows 8 is not failure. Metro GUI might be (on desktops), but underneath, Windows 8 can just as well be best Windows ever. And forcing Windows 8 at users can be fixed in single patch. Dismissing everything Windows 8 is just because of disliking Metro is, at best, irresponsible.
Quote:
Major base of those desktops are PC gamers…. you know the 12 Million WOW users (World of Warcraft), and all the other games running as well.  What MS is going to do is push those users aside for the what 500K to 1 million tablet users they may get, just because they want to to “tabletize” windows?  Smart, the needs of the few outdo the needs of the many.  Yes Win8 can run most stuff Win7 can, but we seen this in the past of the kernel change, just for the fun of it.  Who is to say that SP1 or even Win9 next year or two don’t fully tabelize it and kill the PC game industry.  Blizzard will not be to happy about that.   Just like upgraded a user from Office 2003 to Office 2010, and she complained about the font being different.  I just explained it’s just MS doing what it likes to do, change things to what they want regardless of what the user wants. 

Like I said, Pc users always complain. Look around, so many people still say that they don't need/want to replace their XP. XP is more than 10 years old, for old and new Gods sake. That is ancient history in IT.

I also just happen to be a PC gamer, and I have no issues with Windows 8 for gaming. 12 mil WOW gamers, and every other, have nothing to worry right now. Will MS decide to drop PC gaming and (try to) hoard gamers and developers under Xbox, well, that is possible (though not probable, IMHO) but nothing to do with Windows 8. It's like arguing about Apple's consideration to move away from Intel - it is possible, but it does not affect people who are buying Macs today.
Quote:
As for topic, yes, this will make many corps rethink when to upgrade, if to upgrade at all.  Now you have to pay more money, great. Just what our Finance Committee loves to hear.   It’s how do I still work for the least amount of money to spend.  This will drive some to look at alternatives.  Just like Win8 will drive some to MAC.  If they have to relearn a whole new UI, then might as well try a MAC, since they are seeing some of their co-workers still with the same unit for years and still running without issues.  Esp the ones that felt that way with Vista, new UI, that went to MAC.  They start using and liking for personal use, they will start pushing for business use.  

Sigh. But they don't have to re-learn whole OS. They have to click on Desktop tile and use Windows like they used to. Or ask their IT to apply one of already available Desktop-default solutions. Do you really think that doing that is as complex as buying new hardware, learning staff new OS, training/re-employing IT people to be able to support new OS, changing their Active Domain practices (group policies etc) to work with devices with different, non-Windows OS, providing all the printer and other (if any) drivers for new platform, and replacing (and again, re-training) all their applications with versions and alternatives (if) available on Mac..?
post #94 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

What bullshit! Do you really think all the horrible reviews of WIN 8 and RT are somehow totally off base? Or that people can't read? And one must wonder why the fired the guy in charge of development as soon as they released this pig.

And what reviews would that be? Anandtech reviews are quite enthusiastic about Windows 8 RT at least. Still waiting to see their 8 desktop review. Endgadget, PCWorld reviews are fine. I don't bother reading little blogger IT-mesiah-wannabie "reviews", life is too short for nonsense.

People can read (mostly), and a lot of people do read, but only what they want to see. It is not hard to find heavily biased reviews of everything and anything. For every "How horrible Win 8 is" review, you can find one "How horrible iPhone is" or "How horrible iPad is" fanboy "review". All pointless.
post #95 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Oh, that might not be it. Can never remember anything. It's the graphics driver that's supposed to, you know, apply. The Boot Camp drivers don't work for 8 yet, so I have to resort to Microsoft's "solution". But nope; it forgets that my monitor exists, so it's back to 640x480 every time I boot if I restart instead of shut down.

Oh. Best part. The Boot Camp driver DOES work. Whenever it goes to 640x480, if I go in to device/driver/revert to last driver, it works just fine. But then it doesn't work on the next boot, so I have to then redownload WMMD (WDDM? That's probably it…) again. And poof, it works again. Until the next boot. 

It's an endless cycle of lies.

I have found some info on WDDM 1.1 issues on Windows 8 for old Intel HD integrated graphics. What are you using?
post #96 of 122
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post
I have found some info on WDDM 1.1 issues on Windows 8 for old Intel HD integrated graphics. What are you using?

 

Radeon 4870. ATI, I believe, has stated they've dropped support for the 4xxx series in Windows 8 (which is a frigging crock, as that's only three years old), so I realized there would be bugs, but I figured Microsoft would themselves have a workaround with a generic driver. And they do! But, as I've said, it doesn't work… perfectly.

 

I'll just wait for the official Boot Camp driver to support it properly again, as I originally intended.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #97 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

In what way do you think they are relevant? What trends in computing, or technology generally, are taking, or have taken, direction from Microsoft lately? They've been irrelevant to computing for at least the last five years, perhaps even longer.

In this moment of time, Microsoft and Windows related OSes, applications and services are pretty much the petrol of IT world.

Not because they are better than alternatives - some alternatives might be better, and some of them probably are - but because everyone uses them.

I work in IT, and I am at least 8 hours a day surrounded by Windows servers, desktops, laptops, Windows services, applications both Microsoft, 3rd party and custom made. I have some clues how much everyday functioning in every aspect of our life depends on Microsoft product functioning well. Idea of everything MS stopping to function in some magical event is simply mind-numbing. The world would stop. Not figuratively. Literally.

It actually scares me. I don't like idea of whole world depending that much on single company and single line of products. But it is reality.

Petrol is actually easier to replace as petrol engines are individual entities. You buy Tesla or Nissan Leaf or whatever electric car, charge it and join the traffic. You replace your laptop with iPad or Android tablet and you find out you cannot join your business traffic, as your new device cannot join AD, cannot have group policies applied, cannot have access to shared files, and you cannot open them even if you find a way to dump them on your device as you don't have compatible software. Yes, I am exaggerating it (if only a bit), but I'm pretty sure you'll get the meaning.

And that bloggist is telling me they are irrelevant. Because Apple sold that many iPads and iPhones. Because people learned browsing Internet and watching YouTube is easier on tablet. Because trends are this and that. I'm finding hard to compare trends with reality, and announce reality irrelevant because of the trends. Likewise, I'm finding hard to believe you are serious.
post #98 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Radeon 4870. ATI, I believe, has stated they've dropped support for the 4xxx series in Windows 8 (which is a frigging crock, as that's only three years old), so I realized there would be bugs, but I figured Microsoft would themselves have a workaround with a generic driver. And they do! But, as I've said, it doesn't work… perfectly.

I'll just wait for the official Boot Camp driver to support it properly again, as I originally intended.

I'm really sorry that you are having that problem. I'd still put it more on AMD than on MS. It would be a bit unrealistic expecting MS to fully support everything original manufacturers have stopped supporting. Though current ATI 4000 driver is dated 9/25/2012 which is reasonably fresh, which leaves hope ATI might release new one.
post #99 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Possible. I'm not saying that Metro on non-touch devices is the best way to go. Or the only way to go. I'm just saying it is functional and, short of some eye-candy (at least for people who cannot go without Aero) is improvement over 7. Personally, I was expecting MS to offer a way for users to lock into Desktop mode - business users in particular are unlikely to use built-in Mail, Calendar, People... and some will not even be allowed to freely download apps, so Metro doesn't bring anything to them. But I can also see people completely living in Metro and using only snack-size apps for their mailing, photos, videos, music, social needs... and I think that, for such people at least, there is potential benefit in unified GUI across devices. If nothing else, I'm expecting MS to benefit from all that Metro exposure.

Yeah, it's functional, but so is a Blackberry phone circa 2004. That doesn't mean it's a good fit for today's market. If MS did what they did with Win8 years before Apple introduced any device using CocoaTouch I think MS would have killed in the tablet space and we might have had an iPad before we ever had an iPhone.

Now is it more functional than Win7? Are tasks natural and normal than using the iOS or even Android OS? Does it make sense to have to go through so much rigamarole to change the orientation on the Surface? I don't think so.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #100 of 122
Easy. Don't use MS backend products. Companies that complain about MS licensing haven't made even a moderate effort to consider the many alternatives.
post #101 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

Easy. Don't use MS backend products. Companies that complain about MS licensing haven't made even a moderate effort to consider the many alternatives.

I'll bite. What are the many viable alternatives to Active Directory?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #102 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

In this moment of time, Microsoft and Windows related OSes, applications and services are pretty much the petrol of IT world. ...

That just confirms the point that they have largely become irrelevant, like IBM before them. All you can point to are legacy technologies, absolutely nothing new or innovative out of Redmond in years and years now. (Nothing successful at least.) No one is following Microsoft's lead any more, and how could they when they're so far back from the leading edge that they can't even see it.
post #103 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I'll bite. What are the many viable alternatives to Active Directory?
Any LDAP solution. Now if you are going to turn around and offer up a product that ONLY works with AD, then you've already boxed yourself in. Even GPs can be managed by third party desktop management tools in a non-AD environment. And as a directory, AD is pretty much the worst solution available. No directory partitioning, only full replicas of the database, and a tree structure that doesn't really exist (contexts aren't really contexts, they are just views). It's not even fully RFC compliant as an LDAP directory.
post #104 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

Any LDAP solution. Now if you are going to turn around and offer up a product that ONLY works with AD, then you've already boxed yourself in. Even GPs can be managed by third party desktop management tools in a non-AD environment. And as a directory, AD is pretty much the worst solution available. No directory partitioning, only full replicas of the database, and a tree structure that doesn't really exist (contexts aren't really contexts, they are just views). It's not even fully RFC compliant as an LDAP directory.

Any LDAP solution? So to be clear here, you're stating that any LDAP solution will have any all functionality I or anyone else would or could ever expect from a Active Directory and will integrate with all current Windows-based PCs without issue?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #105 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Corporate is slow to upgrade in general, as it requires a lot of resources - time and money, with constant danger of unexpected downtime due to unforeseen reasons, regardless of how well transition was planned - to roll such update across the company.
I live and work in New Zealand, where companies are much smaller and inertia is equally not as pronounced as in really large corporates.
We have moved all our large customers to Windows 7 over last two years, which we consider huge success (even in smaller and more dynamic environment such as NZ is). I'm not expecting them to upgrade company-wide again this soon, regardless of how good or bad 8 would be for them.
But. Some of them will allow employees - especially management - to bring their own laptops and have them configured as required. We are insisting on standardised machines for main workforce - currently those are current HP EliteBooks P for laptops, and some execs see them too bulky. This is where 8 machines are trickling into our bigger users. Small users are buying their own machines outside of channel supplies, so that is another way of 8 to "sneak" in business - again, this is for company I work for, and scenario we are facing.

It seems like businesses had a habit of skipping alternate OS updates anyway. Which is fine, those delays are done for all the reasons you gave, the needs of a large business are different from the needs of individuals or small businesses.

Is Windows 8 incompatible with your infrastructure?
post #106 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Any LDAP solution? So to be clear here, you're stating that any LDAP solution will have any all functionality I or anyone else would or could ever expect from a Active Directory and will integrate with all current Windows-based PCs without issue?

 

You aren't asking a meaningful question. What you are asking is the equivalent of, "Can HTML5 do everything that Flash can do?" It isn't necessary that other solutions replicate every single piece of functionality. As long as you can accomplish the end task with them, even if that means doing things a bit differently, then one can replace the other, just as HTML5 is replacing Flash.

post #107 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

You aren't asking a meaningful question. What you are asking is the equivalent of, "Can HTML5 do everything that Flash can do?" It isn't necessary that other solutions replicate every single piece of functionality. As long as you can accomplish the end task with them, even if that means doing things a bit differently, then one can replace the other, just as HTML5 is replacing Flash.

Read the comments I responded to. In no way did the original commenters state that for specific or limited tasks there are LDAP solutiona that may fit one's enterprise needs.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #108 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Read the comments I responded to. In no way did the original commenters state that for specific or limited tasks there are LDAP solutiona that may fit one's enterprise needs.

 

Read my original response. In no way did I restrict my comments to "specific or limited tasks".

post #109 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Read my original response. In no way did I restrict my comments to "specific or limited tasks".

You did when you wrote, "It isn't necessary that other solutions replicate every single piece of functionality." Bottom line, MS's ownership of the enterprise isn't because IT departments are idiots.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #110 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You did when you wrote, "It isn't necessary that other solutions replicate every single piece of functionality." Bottom line, MS's ownership of the enterprise isn't because IT departments are idiots.

 

No, it's because IT departments are unimaginative, ultra-conservative and subscribe to the, "No one ever got fired for buying Microsoft," philosophy, after they shifted from the,  "No one ever got fired for buying IBM," philosophy.

 

My point is that, TIMTOWTDI. You don't have to copy the exact series of steps to reach the same end. Thus, you don't necessarily need to replicate, "every single piece of functionality," to accomplish the same purpose. And, as in the case of HTML5, where the end result may not look exactly the same as what you would have developed with Flash, a solution serving the same purpose not using Active Directory doesn't have to look exactly like the Active Directory solution.

post #111 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Yeah, it's functional, but so is a Blackberry phone circa 2004. That doesn't mean it's a good fit for today's market. If MS did what they did with Win8 years before Apple introduced any device using CocoaTouch I think MS would have killed in the tablet space and we might have had an iPad before we ever had an iPhone.
Now is it more functional than Win7? Are tasks natural and normal than using the iOS or even Android OS? Does it make sense to have to go through so much rigamarole to change the orientation on the Surface? I don't think so.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Sure MS would have done much better have they released Metro before Apple and Google, but even at this point of time, I'm finding this GUI not lacking compared to competition. I'll admit I still don't have Win 8 tablet or phone... but comparing my iPhone and Android tablet to Metro on my desktop, I really like Metro more than either. I'm not talking about pure looks - beauty is in the eye of beholder, anyway; I'm talking about nice step up in functionality I am personally seeing here. Others might not, and that is fine.

My work desktop is configured to use Desktop apps for work (Outlook, Office, Corel, ConnectWise...) and I have configured Metro apps for my personal stuff - email, social, calendar, to-do and likes. I really like that I can quickly flick to Metro and not only see that I have new emails, for example, but also to get some info about who are they from, and what are they about without opening mail app. Because I am married man long enough to know that wife's email has to be checked quickly, while email from Air NZ can wait for after the work 1wink.gif

No, really; I like dynamics of Metro. I've also noticed that Metro on computer screens in shops draws my attention much more than static desktops with little still icons on it, be it Windows 7 or OSX, likely because of tile sizes and constant changes. I don't know if MS was counting on that, but according to this article:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=29288

Windows 8 is selling fine, actually better than Windows 7 in the same period. Sure lower upgrade price didn't hurt, but I'm keeping in mind that Windows 7 was supposed saviour after failed Vista and, consequently, almost 10 years of Windows XP... while 8 is coming after still fresh and very successful 7, which is not a small obstacle to overcome.

In short, I think that 8 is a decent upgrade on 7, and works well, even if it is a bit quirky at times. I also think that majority of users will not have problem to get used to it, and people complaining about it belong to the same group that complains about every new iPhone and prophesize it's demise, while phone itself keeps selling better and better - in short, small albeit vocal minority.
post #112 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

It seems like businesses had a habit of skipping alternate OS updates anyway. Which is fine, those delays are done for all the reasons you gave, the needs of a large business are different from the needs of individuals or small businesses.
Is Windows 8 incompatible with your infrastructure?

No, we had no major issues with deploying it. What I can think of:

ConnectWise support told us that they still don't support Windows 8, but that their software should work fine. It does.

We have noticed a small bug with IE10 used with Kaseya; when copying files to remote computer, file tree window reduces a few pixels on every mouse click. Chrome and Firefox work fine as ever, though.

Since I did an upgrade on top of my Windows 7 - upgrade pre-check complained about NIC driver which I have uninstalled (Windows 8 applied it's NIC drivers during upgrade).

CorelDRAW 5 was listed as software known to have issues (I believe it came from Windows 8 preview release user reports) but once on Windows 8, I failed to spot any issues, much as I am using Corel.

Win 8 upgrade pre-check didn't complain about NOD32 AV running, but I had to uninstall and reinstall it after OS upgrade, as it was somehow completely blocking my network traffic (but then, I should have thought about removing AV before OS upgrade anyway).

Worst issue? Ancient Counter Strike Condition Zero, which we occasionally play on Friday afternoons, does not work on 8. So I had to dual-boot. However, my Win 7 dual-boot is VHD image sitting in folder, which made it a bit easier than classic dual-boot solution with partitioned HDD etc.

That would be it.
post #113 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

That just confirms the point that they have largely become irrelevant, like IBM before them. All you can point to are legacy technologies, absolutely nothing new or innovative out of Redmond in years and years now. (Nothing successful at least.) No one is following Microsoft's lead any more, and how could they when they're so far back from the leading edge that they can't even see it.

Suuure... well based on same criteria, air we breathe is largely becoming irrelevant as it hasn't provided anything new or innovative for years and years now. Years? Millenniums. Since our ancestors left oceans and took first lungful. And it is actually becoming more stale and polluted every second. The hell with it. Lets breathe water again. We can even feed on plankton while breathing, now that is novel idea.

You are comparing trends, which can change overnight, with actual pillars of IT world, embedded in almost every pore of the world we live in. If you really think that something like that is irrelevant, we hardly have anything to talk about on this topic, simply because you are utterly wrong.

And all that even without opening can of innovations. You say they have absolutely nothing new and innovative for years. I say you should stop following up only Apple news and scope the world around you. If you drop a bit of your bias, you might see Microsoft coming out with innovations across the range of their products, from home (with Kinect, SmartGlass...) to network infrastructure (with Hyper-V, improvements in Exchange, Server 2012...) and almost everywhere in-between; MS that manages to figure out a novel GUI for touch devices, after 2 decades of safe but a bit long in tooth icon grid, from Newton, through Palm, WinMo, Symbian, Blackberry, iOS and Android... you can like or dislike Metro, but you cannot deny novelty.
post #114 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Suuure... well based on same criteria, air we breathe is largely becoming irrelevant as it hasn't provided anything new or innovative for years and years now. Years? Millenniums. Since our ancestors left oceans and took first lungful. And it is actually becoming more stale and polluted every second. The hell with it. Lets breathe water again. We can even feed on plankton while breathing, now that is novel idea.
You are comparing trends, which can change overnight, with actual pillars of IT world, embedded in almost every pore of the world we live in. If you really think that something like that is irrelevant, we hardly have anything to talk about on this topic, simply because you are utterly wrong.
And all that even without opening can of innovations. You say they have absolutely nothing new and innovative for years. I say you should stop following up only Apple news and scope the world around you. If you drop a bit of your bias, you might see Microsoft coming out with innovations across the range of their products, from home (with Kinect, SmartGlass...) to network infrastructure (with Hyper-V, improvements in Exchange, Server 2012...) and almost everywhere in-between; MS that manages to figure out a novel GUI for touch devices, after 2 decades of safe but a bit long in tooth icon grid, from Newton, through Palm, WinMo, Symbian, Blackberry, iOS and Android... you can like or dislike Metro, but you cannot deny novelty.

You make an impassioned argument, but Microsoft's mindshare has shrunk to near zero. Yeah, IBM is still a pillar of the IT world too, and, yeah, the come out with new stuff all the time as well. So, I guess, according to your argument, they are relevant today too.

Sorry, at this point, no one beyond the IT pillars even cares what Microsoft is up to these days. You want to determine who's relevant? Count the inches of news published about various companies in mainstream publications. The companies with the most are the most relevant, because they are the ones creating the future of technology. Microsoft isn't in that group at the top of the list any more. Microsoft is still creating the past of technology.
post #115 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

<snip>
Like I said, Pc users always complain. Look around, so many people still say that they don't need/want to replace their XP. XP is more than 10 years old, for old and new Gods sake. That is ancient history in IT.
 

The two reasonably large companies I've been with have both switched from XP ti Win 7 in the last 2 to 3 years.  I expect that by the time they switch from Win7 it will be ancient history as well.   From what I have seen there are many (perhaps the majority) companies on the same upgrade cycle.   It is unlikely they will be switching to a new Win OS for another 5 to 10 years.

post #116 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

No, it's because IT departments are unimaginative, ultra-conservative and subscribe to the, "No one ever got fired for buying Microsoft," philosophy, after they shifted from the,  "No one ever got fired for buying IBM," philosophy.

My point is that, TIMTOWTDI. You don't have to copy the exact series of steps to reach the same end. Thus, you don't necessarily need to replicate, "every single piece of functionality," to accomplish the same purpose. And, as in the case of HTML5, where the end result may not look exactly the same as what you would have developed with Flash, a solution serving the same purpose not using Active Directory doesn't have to look exactly like the Active Directory solution.

So now MS's server products only sell because IT is unimaginative? Now you're not even trying to have a rational argument. Bottom line is MS's server products do things that others can't so agreeing with the OP that any LDAP option can do what Active Directory does as easily as AD does it is axiomatically wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.
Sure MS would have done much better have they released Metro before Apple and Google, but even at this point of time, I'm finding this GUI not lacking compared to competition. I'll admit I still don't have Win 8 tablet or phone... but comparing my iPhone and Android tablet to Metro on my desktop, I really like Metro more than either. I'm not talking about pure looks - beauty is in the eye of beholder, anyway; I'm talking about nice step up in functionality I am personally seeing here. Others might not, and that is fine.
My work desktop is configured to use Desktop apps for work (Outlook, Office, Corel, ConnectWise...) and I have configured Metro apps for my personal stuff - email, social, calendar, to-do and likes. I really like that I can quickly flick to Metro and not only see that I have new emails, for example, but also to get some info about who are they from, and what are they about without opening mail app. Because I am married man long enough to know that wife's email has to be checked quickly, while email from Air NZ can wait for after the work 1wink.gif
No, really; I like dynamics of Metro. I've also noticed that Metro on computer screens in shops draws my attention much more than static desktops with little still icons on it, be it Windows 7 or OSX, likely because of tile sizes and constant changes. I don't know if MS was counting on that, but according to this article:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=29288
Windows 8 is selling fine, actually better than Windows 7 in the same period. Sure lower upgrade price didn't hurt, but I'm keeping in mind that Windows 7 was supposed saviour after failed Vista and, consequently, almost 10 years of Windows XP... while 8 is coming after still fresh and very successful 7, which is not a small obstacle to overcome.
In short, I think that 8 is a decent upgrade on 7, and works well, even if it is a bit quirky at times. I also think that majority of users will not have problem to get used to it, and people complaining about it belong to the same group that complains about every new iPhone and prophesize it's demise, while phone itself keeps selling better and better - in short, small albeit vocal minority.

Your opinion is completely valid as stated and for your sake I hope that enough people agree with your PoV, but I certainly don't. I think it makes the tablet and desktop UX worse on both, not better.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #117 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


So now MS's server products only sell because IT is unimaginative? Now you're not even trying to have a rational argument. Bottom line is MS's server products do things that others can't so agreeing with the OP that any LDAP option can do what Active Directory does as easily as AD does it is axiomatically wrong.

 

First of all, I didn't, "[agree] with the OP that any LDAP option can do what Active Directory does as easily as AD does it." I merely stated that demanding feature for feature parity wasn't a valid argument against his claims.

 

However, yes, I think it is the case that, in the past, IT people bought stuff from Microsoft because it was from Microsoft, just as in the more distant past, they bought stuff from IBM because it was from IBM. I think denying this fact undermines any argument you might have about why people buy Microsoft technologies.

 

Lastly, I'm not sure what being "axiomatically wrong" means in this context. Perhaps you were struggling to find the right word?

post #118 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

First of all, I didn't, "[agree] with the OP that any LDAP option can do what Active Directory does as easily as AD does it." I merely stated that demanding feature for feature parity wasn't a valid argument against his claims.

However, yes, I think it is the case that, in the past, IT people bought stuff from Microsoft because it was from Microsoft, just as in the more distant past, they bought stuff from IBM because it was from IBM. I think denying this fact undermines any argument you might have about why people buy Microsoft technologies.

Lastly, I'm not sure what being "axiomatically wrong" means in this context. Perhaps you were struggling to find the right word?

1) You took the stance that I was wrong and the OP was correct in his assertion in that any LDAP solution could replace all Active Directory setups.

2) Every IT I'm been part of or affiliated with has always looked to reduce costs. IT is a cost center so finding ways to reduce costs is an important part of that department. That isn't to say that all IT departments function as such (as noted by anecdotal first sentence) but your implication that all IT departments are 'unimaginative, ultra-conservative and subscribe to the, "No one ever got fired for buying Microsoft," philosophy' is simple false. I'm sure there are people and departments that exist within that "philosophy" but it is not an inherent trait of being in IT.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #119 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) You took the stance that I was wrong and the OP was correct in his assertion in that any LDAP solution could replace all Active Directory setups.
2) Every IT I'm been part of or affiliated with has always looked to reduce costs. IT is a cost center so finding ways to reduce costs is an important part of that department. That isn't to say that all IT departments function as such (as noted by anecdotal first sentence) but your implication that all IT departments are 'unimaginative, ultra-conservative and subscribe to the, "No one ever got fired for buying Microsoft," philosophy' is simple false. I'm sure there are people and departments that exist within that "philosophy" but it is not an inherent trait of being in IT.

 

1) You need to re-read the discussion.

 

2) From my experience with IT departments, "No one ever got fired for buying Microsoft," is the prevailing attitude for shops where they depend on Microsoft technology, and, typically, in these shops, the staff are gushingly enthusiastic about the same, but know little else. IT departments pay a lot of lip service to "reducing costs", but not so many of them actually approach this in a rational way. If they were all so cost conscious, they'd be using Macs on their desktops, and while more are these days, the majority are not. IT Managers say a lot of things, but you have to take most of their rationale with more than a grain of salt.

 

Perhaps we just haven't dealt with the same IT shops, but I haven't seen what you have.

post #120 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

You make an impassioned argument, but Microsoft's mindshare has shrunk to near zero. Yeah, IBM is still a pillar of the IT world too, and, yeah, the come out with new stuff all the time as well. So, I guess, according to your argument, they are relevant today too.
Sorry, at this point, no one beyond the IT pillars even cares what Microsoft is up to these days. You want to determine who's relevant? Count the inches of news published about various companies in mainstream publications. The companies with the most are the most relevant, because they are the ones creating the future of technology. Microsoft isn't in that group at the top of the list any more. Microsoft is still creating the past of technology.

It seems we live in different worlds. In world I live and work, MS mindshare is doing well.

But that is actually irrelevant, because even if your statement is true for your environment, mindshare has nothing to do with relevancy.

Milk, bread, butter and water mindshares are pretty poor these days. People talk about milk only when price jumps. Same with petrol, electricity. That is because all of them are constant part of our everyday, and it is our nature to pay more attention to things less common in our everyday existence. I will talk with my wife and my friends about our next year trip to Barcelona for hours, plan what to do, what to see, yet I will not have a second thought about water - I will drink it when I am thirsty, and that is all. I am expecting water to be there for me when I need it, nothing more, nothing less.

But just because water doesn't occupy my mind these days, not even remotely much as travelling, or buying a new smartphone, camera or computer, does not mean water is irrelevant. It only means I'm taking it for granted. If water is to disappear from the face of earth, it will suddenly take a lot of mindshare, take my word for that.

Same with Microsoft. It is nowadays so common, everyday, heck a bit boring. We have to use it on daily basis at work, and so many people had jobs they need, not jobs they want, so for them it even symbolises lack of success in their career, definitely not something they want to spend too much time thinking about. We don't think about it, and majority don't even know how much Microsoft technology is built in whatever they do, whenever they do.

But all that has nothing to do about relevancy.

Re IBM server... no, it is not the same. IBM server can easily be replaced with Lenovo, HP or DELL server. If you are virtualising, you don't even need to think about hardware drivers and other potential difference. All that because IBM servers are compatible with Windows, like any other brand servers.

Today, there is no replacement for Microsoft. You can replace some products, but as a whole, no. That is the part I'm finding scary, so many things depending on one company. But that is reality, and that is relevance. Not mindshare. relevance.

I think I made my opinion reasonably clear, so I will stop here. If you managed to find a spot on this planet where Internet, credit card, cable TV, emergency services and everything else you need, like or just use work fine without Microsoft products, well good on you.

Only problem is... I don't think so.
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