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Amazon boasts about Kindle's strong Cyber Monday, still withholds sales figures

post #1 of 52
Thread Starter 
Amazon's Kindle platform saw its biggest sales day ever during the "Cyber Monday" shopping event, though the online retailer still refuses to disclose any actual sales data.

In a press release issued on Tuesday, Amazon boasted that Cyber Monday 2012 was the "biggest day ever for Kindle sales worldwide." Sales were boosted in particular by a $129 price for the Kindle Fire.

The top four spots on Amazon's worldwide best sellers list have been Kindle e-readers and Kindle Fire models since the product lineup was revamped nearly three months ago. And nine of the top 10 best selling products on Amazon since Sept. 6 have been Kindles, Kindle accessories and digital content.

"Kindle e-readers and Kindle Fires have held the top 4 spots on the Amazon worldwide best sellers list since launch, and that was before the busiest shopping weekend of the year," said Dave Limp, Vice President, Amazon Kindle. "We?re excited that customers made this Black Friday and Cyber Monday the best ever for Kindle worldwide?Cyber Monday was the biggest day ever for Kindle sales, and we?re looking forward to millions of customers opening a new Kindle this holiday season."

Kindle Fire HD


Amazon has repeatedly bragged about sales of the Kindle lineup, and even claimed in August that the Kindle Fire accounted for 22 percent of the U.S. tablet market. But Amazon has failed to publicly state how many units it has sold of any device in its Kindle lineup, which includes e-ink readers and touchscreen tablets with color LCD displays.

Amazon is believed to make very little, if any, money off of its Kindle lineup, instead aiming to undercut competitors and expand its lineup in an effort to tie customers into the online retailer's vast ecosystem of digital content.
post #2 of 52
And without sales numbers, no one knows diddley-do. But a $129 Kindle sounds great - until it's delivered.
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post #3 of 52

No sales figures = third place at best... 

post #4 of 52
The more Kindles amazon sells, the more $ Amazon is losing!
Love Amazon but there's a flaw in Jeff Bezos' equation.
post #5 of 52
I think Returns Wednesday will be big for non-iPads too.

(A Kindle IS great as an e-reader, but not so great at other things, and not AS great an e-reader as an iPad, which has Kindle plus other book sources... plus an unmatched library of quality apps. Still, if a simple e-reader is most of what you want, and you don%u2019t care that it falls short in other areas, a Kindle%u2019s price is right.)
post #6 of 52
The Kindle PaperWhite is very nice, I bought one for my Daughter. For reading books, certainly novels, it is the best option out there right now. As a general purpose tablet it is not so good. Now at the $119 it is WIFI only and has the adds. I expect a lot of non-kindle users will get that model, users of old Kindles are much more likely to move up to the $200 model with no adds and 3G wireless, you pay $60 for 3 or 4 years of 3G coverage (depending on how long you use the Kindle actively), compared to $15/month for the iPad.
post #7 of 52

I like it when Jeff Bezos is asked how many Kindles Amazon has sold.  He always says, "We sold a hell of a lot of Kindles.  Way more than last year."  The analysts all pat him on his back and raise Amazon's target prices another $10.  If he's asked an actual figure, he always tells them that he can't divulge that information because it is top secret.  It's actually to Amazon's advantage that they never tell how many Kindles are being sold.  That way Wall Street can't possibly have any expectations on an indeterminate number.  That's what Apple needs to do with its own sales numbers and guidance.  That's the reason why Jeff Bezos is Businessperson of the Year and why Tim Cook is the Doofus of the Year.  Amazon is losing money and the share price is going up.  Apple is making plenty of money and the share price is going down.  Go figure.

post #8 of 52

Pathetic and cowardly!

 

If they had such strong sales, then why are they afraid to release the numbers?

 

Either show the proof, or STFU!

 

Android manufacturers all seem to share the same thing in common. Almost none of them ever release any sales figures, because they're pathetic little chickenshit cowards! Boasting about stuff, yet too afraid to release figures? lol.gif

 

And if there are any figures released, it's always, units shipped, units sitting unsold on dusty store shelves, not actual units bought.

 

Android is pure garbage and Fandroids are moronic fools.

post #9 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Amazon is believed to make very little, if any, money off of its Kindle lineup, instead aiming to undercut competitors and expand its lineup in an effort to tie customers into the online retailer's vast ecosystem of digital content.
And this isn't monopolistic behavior how? Trying to drive business away from your competitors by selling at a loss. By locking your customers into one platform for all their purchases. That's no predatory?
post #10 of 52

The sale is actually on the 2nd generation Kindle Fire, not 1st generation (and not Kindle Fire HD either). That's $129 down from $159.

 

In fact KF was the most searched term yesterday. People wanted to buy 1 for their kids.

 

Yes, at $129 this is a device for <10 year-old kids. I know some posters here say they've no problem buying an iPad mini for their kids but let's face it this forum's population is not very representative of the general public. A $129 KF is good price for an entry-level tablet for kids, especially with the freetime app (which I do wish iPad would  have this kind of app for parental control).

post #11 of 52
Originally Posted by macaholic_1948 View Post
And this isn't monopolistic behavior how? Trying to drive business away from your competitors by selling at a loss. By locking your customers into one platform for all their purchases. That's no predatory?

 

"It's not because Apple did it and they didn't and Apple is bad and price fixes books and Amazon is good."


Reads like a five-year-old, dunnit? But hey, that's the argument.

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post #12 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by macaholic_1948 View Post

And this isn't monopolistic behavior how? Trying to drive business away from your competitors by selling at a loss. By locking your customers into one platform for all their purchases. That's no predatory?
It's only monopolistic if they have a Monopoly, and they don't. Otherwise it's "healthy" competition as far as the government is concerned.

I know it's widely believed that Amazon makes very little or no money on the Kindle, but is this true worldwide? Aren't there anti-dumping laws and other tariffs to prevent a foreign manufacturer from doing this and undercutting the competition? I know in the US it is totally legal, but outside the US? What does the Kindle sell for outside the US?
Edited by Mac_128 - 11/27/12 at 10:33am
post #13 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

I like it when Jeff Bezos is asked how many Kindles Amazon has sold.  He always says, "We sold a hell of a lot of Kindles.  Way more than last year."  The analysts all pat him on his back and raise Amazon's target prices another $10.  If he's asked an actual figure, he always tells them that he can't divulge that information because it is top secret.  It's actually to Amazon's advantage that they never tell how many Kindles are being sold.  That way Wall Street can't possibly have any expectations on an indeterminate number.  That's what Apple needs to do with its own sales numbers and guidance.  That's the reason why Jeff Bezos is Businessperson of the Year and why Tim Cook is the Doofus of the Year.  Amazon is losing money and the share price is going up.  Apple is making plenty of money and the share price is going down.  Go figure.


Withholding sales figures would not help Apple. Heck, they already refuse to provide projections - so the analysts make them up. If they withheld actual sales figures, as well, the analysts would make up the worst possible figures they could come up with.

The same thing happened in the 90s on Mac software. SPA consistently released preliminary figures showing that Mac software sales were declining. Later, after the actual figures came out, it turned out that Mac software sales had actually been increasing - yet SPA never bothered to issue a retraction of their earlier figures. The game has always been to make things up to make Apple look bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macaholic_1948 View Post

And this isn't monopolistic behavior how? Trying to drive business away from your competitors by selling at a loss. By locking your customers into one platform for all their purchases. That's no predatory?

Of course it's predatory. Too bad the DOJ is more interested in acting as Amazon and Google's lapdog than in doing something about it.
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post #14 of 52
Actually, a lot of companies try selling their main product at a loss while attempting to make a profit on accessories. Look at ink jet printers. I'm sure these make next to nothing while they overprice their proprietary ink to lock in the buyers. This is all Amazon is doing. They sell electronic and printed books as their primary business so these e-readers are their way of locking in users to over-priced ebooks.

If I remember right, Kindle's only read Amazon's proprietary e-book format (yes/no?). I'm not calling this monopolistic because there are other options to this format. Just like Apple, iPods, and iTunes is not monopolistic because there are other options for people.
post #15 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Pathetic and cowardly!

 

If they had such strong sales, then why are they afraid to release the numbers?

 

Either show the proof, or STFU!

 

Android manufacturers all seem to share the same thing in common. Almost None of them ever release any sales figures, because they're pathetic little chickenshit cowards! Boasting about stuff, yet too afraid to release figures? lol.gif

 

And if there are any figures released, it's always, units shipped, units sitting unsold on dusty store shelves, not actual units bought.

 

Android is pure garbage and Fandroids are moronic fools.

There, corrected it for you! 1wink.gif

post #16 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob53 View Post

Actually, a lot of companies try selling their main product at a loss while attempting to make a profit on accessories. Look at ink jet printers. I'm sure these make next to nothing while they overprice their proprietary ink to lock in the buyers. This is all Amazon is doing. They sell electronic and printed books as their primary business so these e-readers are their way of locking in users to over-priced ebooks.
If I remember right, Kindle's only read Amazon's proprietary e-book format (yes/no?). I'm not calling this monopolistic because there are other options to this format. Just like Apple, iPods, and iTunes is not monopolistic because there are other options for people.

There is a major difference. Amazon has a near monopoly in some of their markets and are using the discounted Kindle to keep competitors out. That is illegal.
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post #17 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



Of course it's predatory. Too bad the DOJ is more interested in acting as Amazon and Google's lapdog than in doing something about it.

Amazon should have the right to hand these out for free. Its simply a loss-leader.

post #18 of 52

Hey guys, I had a hell of a weekend.  Shagged a few birds, some of which are Hollywood elites...won the lotto, ran for 300 yards in a football game and batted .427 in my company softball tourney.

 

No, really.  I can't show you the proof because it's all secret, but believe me, it's all true.

post #19 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


There is a major difference. Amazon has a near monopoly in some of their markets and are using the discounted Kindle to keep competitors out. That is illegal.

I agree that Amazon's monopoly should be addressed by DOJ but they really aren't keeping iPads from reading their e-books since Apple allows the Kindle e-book reader on an iPad. Their pricing scheme for all books could qualify as a monopoly but I don't believe their e-book reader does. Anyone could build a cheap Kindle-format e-book reader to undercut Amazon's Kindle. If Apple wanted to sell the iPad at a loss (whatever that means since analysts never take into account R&D or software development costs), they could and would probably have multiple "millions of customers opening a new Kindle iPad this holiday season." Of course, those pesky analysts would complain about Apple's profit margin and AAPL would tank because iPads are Apple's business not e-books, which is why selling iPads at a loss would hurt Apple while selling Kindle's at a loss won't hurt Amazon that much.

post #20 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

I think Returns Wednesday will be big for non-iPads too.
(A Kindle IS great as an e-reader, but not so great at other things, and not AS great an e-reader as an iPad, which has Kindle plus other book sources... plus an unmatched library of quality apps. Still, if a simple e-reader is most of what you want, and you don%u2019t care that it falls short in other areas, a Kindle%u2019s price is right.)

You're right a eInk Kindle isn't as great as an iPad for reading, it's better. Just ask John Gruber.
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post #21 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by macaholic_1948 View Post

And this isn't monopolistic behavior how? Trying to drive business away from your competitors by selling at a loss. By locking your customers into one platform for all their purchases. That's no predatory?

All the gaming platforms operate in that fashion. Amazon didn't invent anything new, difference is you don't have to buy a Kindle to get eBooks. They're available across multiple platforms.
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post #22 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob53 View Post

I agree that Amazon's monopoly should be addressed by DOJ but they really aren't keeping iPads from reading their e-books since Apple allows the Kindle e-book reader on an iPad. Their pricing scheme for all books could qualify as a monopoly but I don't believe their e-book reader does. Anyone could build a cheap Kindle-format e-book reader to undercut Amazon's Kindle. If Apple wanted to sell the iPad at a loss (whatever that means since analysts never take into account R&D or software development costs), they could and would probably have multiple "millions of customers opening a new Kindle iPad this holiday season." Of course, those pesky analysts would complain about Apple's profit margin and AAPL would tank because iPads are Apple's business not e-books, which is why selling iPads at a loss would hurt Apple while selling Kindle's at a loss won't hurt Amazon that much.

Their ebook business is definitely underhanded but I wouldn't say monopolistic. They don't create the content and the publishers agreed to the wholesale model and are free to sell anywhere else plus it's only a small percentage of ebooks being sold at a loss.
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post #23 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob53 View Post

I agree that Amazon's monopoly should be addressed by DOJ
Amazon DOESN'T have a monopoly!

Also, it is NOT illegal to give away (subsidize) hardware in exchange for a service. If it were, a lot fewer people would be using iPhones. Gevalia coffee built a business on this, giving away free coffee makers in exchange for buying their coffee for a minimum duration.

When Amazon reaches the size of Windows OS in terms of media sales share, and continues to give away the Kindle, whether or not it stops supporting iOS along they way, then the DOJ will step in. Though what got the DOJs attention with Microsoft was forcing customers to use Internet Explorer. Forcing customers to use only a Kindle would likely be the thing that triggers the DOJ's interest. But Just underselling the competition is not enough until they dominate the industry. At which time, they only need claim superior services to Google, MS, Apple Store and raise the price of the Kindle, secure for the near future at least that they will have a captive audience, in much the same way Apple did with the iPod, though using innovation instead of leveraging cheap products.
post #24 of 52

$129 is an incredible price for a tablet.  I'm sure they did sell a ton of them.  I have no doubt they are losing money on every one, and hope to make up for it via sales of Kindle eBooks.  Bezos said pretty much exactly that.  Something to the effect that he doesn't think people should have to pay up front, they should pay for content.  If I weren't well invested in the iOS ecosystem (as a happy user, an AAPL shareholder, and an iOS developer), I would have bought one for each of my kids yesterday, sight unseen.

 

This is just the market reality that Apple and other tablet makers have to deal with.  Apple at least has its (well deserved) reputation and alternative OS as selling points.  I don't know what Samsung, Google, and Microsoft are supposed to do about it.  Sucks to be them.

post #25 of 52
Until Bezos releases real numbers than nothing really matters. Doubling or tripling sales that are already meager is a non-event. Apple and Android tout their numbers proudly. Perhaps Amazon's numbers are nothing to brag about so they keep the silence and opacity.
post #26 of 52
oh I was hoping for actual numbers. oh well. They don't actually sell iPads now do they.
post #27 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

I like it when Jeff Bezos is asked how many Kindles Amazon has sold.  He always says, "We sold a hell of a lot of Kindles.  Way more than last year."  The analysts all pat him on his back and raise Amazon's target prices another $10.  If he's asked an actual figure, he always tells them that he can't divulge that information because it is top secret.  It's actually to Amazon's advantage that they never tell how many Kindles are being sold.  That way Wall Street can't possibly have any expectations on an indeterminate number.  That's what Apple needs to do with its own sales numbers and guidance.  That's the reason why Jeff Bezos is Businessperson of the Year and why Tim Cook is the Doofus of the Year.  Amazon is losing money and the share price is going up.  Apple is making plenty of money and the share price is going down.  Go figure.

hmmm... Apple stock at 356 on 8/19/11 (around the time Cook took over), apple stock at 584 today. (Apple stock at the beginning of 2012: 405 ish)  Yup, that's a Doofus, alright. It's only a +228% increase. Apple does need to release numbers because the analysts would just make up stuff (like they always do).

 

The stock had a dip because Apple's record breaking quarters weren't record-breaking enough.

post #28 of 52
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

The stock had a dip because Apple's record breaking quarters weren't record-breaking enough.

 

This is sad. True, but sad. Also hilarious.

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post #29 of 52

If I were in that meeting, I'd hammer Bezos for kindle numbers.  Otherwise, I'd rate them down simply because there are literally no metrics being give out to tell the informed investor how they're doing.  Total BS as far as I'm concerned.

post #30 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

"It's not because Apple did it and they didn't and Apple is bad and price fixes books and Amazon is good."


Reads like a five-year-old, dunnit? But hey, that's the argument.
The two issues are different. Sorry you can't see that. The actions by Apple differ from those of Amazon. Apple's Agency model allows for price collusion and that is what drew the attention of the Feds.

Here, Amazo is attempting to control the market by selling "key" technology (that locks users into their selling platform) at a loss, to the detriment of competitors.
post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by wally626 View Post

I expect a lot of non-kindle users will get that model, users of old Kindles are much more likely to move up to the $200 model with no adds and 3G wireless, you pay $60 for 3 or 4 years of 3G coverage (depending on how long you use the Kindle actively), compared to $15/month for the iPad.


Not so sure about that.  I had a Kindle Touch, and now a Paperwhite, and haven't ever wished I had 3G.  It's not like it's usable for anything other than buying books, so the fact that it's "free" is pretty moot.

post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

hmmm... Apple stock at 356 on 8/19/11 (around the time Cook took over), apple stock at 584 today. (Apple stock at the beginning of 2012: 405 ish)  Yup, that's a Doofus, alright. It's only a +228% increase. Apple does need to release numbers because the analysts would just make up stuff (like they always do).

 

The stock had a dip because Apple's record breaking quarters weren't record-breaking enough.

no, the stock had a dip because it was valued based on expectations that apple would have even higher profits than they did.  People act like this is a bad thing, it just means more people jumped on the apple stock bandwagon thinking it had unlimited growth, when in fact its growth was limited.  I think part of the stock price is the lack of anything from apple that could be construed as "the next big thing".  It is difficult for apple to grow bigger in the markets they are in.  They won't get 100% of the phone market because their prices are too high (the free iphone 4 isn't really that cheap, ask anyone in a country where phones aren't subsidized).  They had a near monopoly of the tablet market, but no one expects that to last.  Between android tablets finally coming to their own, and windows 8 tablets hitting the street, there's nowhere for apple's market share to go but down.  There are expectations of growth in the market segment, but that will only last so long.  Eventually they will run out of consumers, and with the rapid growth of the tablet market, that might not take too long.

 

Analysts are valuing apple's stock just like every other stock, and a big part of that is future growth (and projected future growth).  If apple maintains their position with huge profits, their stock will not grow significantly in value.  Their profits need to grow to keep the stock price growing. Analysts were forecasting nearly limitless growth for apple a few years ago, but the limits are within sight now, and the stock had become overvalued.  It's a pretty simple thing if you ask me.  

 

Phil

post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

It's only monopolistic if they have a Monopoly, and they don't. Otherwise it's "healthy" competition as far as the government is concerned.
I know it's widely believed that Amazon makes very little or no money on the Kindle, but is this true worldwide? Aren't there anti-dumping laws and other tariffs to prevent a foreign manufacturer from doing this and undercutting the competition? I know in the US it is totally legal, but outside the US? What does the Kindle sell for outside the US?

It's illegal (if you are large enough to impact a market, and Amazon is) to act in a monopolistic manner if your actions can be seen as an attempt to monopolize a market. There are anti-dumping laws in the US. What Amazon is doing could be construed as such. That's what got Microsoft in trouble. Unfortunately, as with Microsoft, the government probably won't see what has happened as monopolistic until after the fact.
post #34 of 52

Looks like most of those Kindles may have been purchased on iOS devices...

 

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9234039/iPad_grabs_top_spot_as_preferred_Black_Friday_shopping_tool

post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by macaholic_1948 View Post

The two issues are different. Sorry you can't see that. The actions by Apple differ from those of Amazon. Apple's Agency model allows for price collusion and that is what drew the attention of the Feds.
Here, Amazon is attempting to control the market by selling "key" technology (that locks users into their selling platform) at a loss, to the detriment of competitors.

Then before anything Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft need to be taken to court because that's the same business MO they use for their gaming consoles, or it only matters when it affects Apple?
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post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Then before anything Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft need to be taken to court because that's the same business MO they use for their gaming consoles, or it only matters when it affects Apple?

Yet another iHater who doesn't understand that the rules are different when you have a monopoly or dominant market share.

Microsoft does not have a monopoly or dominant market share in the game console business so they are free to do what they want.
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post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Then before anything Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft need to be taken to court because that's the same business MO they use for their gaming consoles, or it only matters when it affects Apple?

Not exactly.
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob53 View Post

Actually, a lot of companies try selling their main product at a loss while attempting to make a profit on accessories. Look at ink jet printers. I'm sure these make next to nothing while they overprice their proprietary ink to lock in the buyers. This is all Amazon is doing. They sell electronic and printed books as their primary business so these e-readers are their way of locking in users to over-priced ebooks.
If I remember right, Kindle's only read Amazon's proprietary e-book format (yes/no?). I'm not calling this monopolistic because there are other options to this format. Just like Apple, iPods, and iTunes is not monopolistic because there are other options for people.

The difference is that Ammazon is large enough to impact a market and it sells products across a wide variety of lines. The DOJ won't pay attention to companies that aren't large simply because their inability to drive the market keeps their monopolistic behavior from having a monopolistic impact.

One reason why Apple does not get into trouble with its iDevices and iTunes is that Apple does not sell its products at a low price, thus making entry into the market by competitors difficult. In fact, entry is easy. The problem Apple's competitors have is that Apple makes superior products that people want despite the high price. None-the-less, they have competitors. Unlike Amazon, Apple's pricing is not designed to inhibit competition. If Apple had sold its iDevices at a loss to induce users to use iTunes, don't you think DOJ would be all over them?

TO THOSE MENTIONING GAMING PLATFORMS: As for gaming platforms, their pricing is not designed to inhibit competition or entry into the market by competitors. The fact that there is healthy competition in the gaming market is why they don't have problems with the DOJ. If any one of the platform vendors sold their products at a super low price in order to drive competition out of business, they would. Looking at DOJ involvement.
post #39 of 52
Where is the evidence Amazon is making money on the content side? I know they spin it that way but where's the proof it's actually working? If it was why would they need to include advertising with the Kindles that you have to pay to opt out of? Amazon and Android OEM's know the only way they can compete with the iPad is to sell their tablets dirt cheap and hope people are drawn to the cheap price. As long as Amazon is not releasing numbers that means their sales are probably not great (or the returns are high). Microsoft wouldn't say how many Surface tablets they've sold so far, but had no problem releasing sales figures for Xbox. If Amazon had sales figures that could even come close to iPad they'd be shouting about it from the rooftops. I keep waiting for the investor community to start applying the same standards to Amazon as they do to Apple and other companies. Last quarter Apple reported profits of almost $9B and their stock dropped like 4% the next day. Amazon reported a loss and the next day their stock was up almost 6%. Their PE is close to 3000 now. Apple's is less than 13. Explain that. 1oyvey.gif
post #40 of 52
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
Amazon reported a loss and the next day their stock was up almost 6%. Their PE is close to 3000 now. Apple's is less than 13. Explain that. 1oyvey.gif

 

WHAT?! Three THOUSAND? How is their stock not plummeting faster than Jay Leno's ratings?* No, seriously! What happens when they DO collapse? What happens to everything they do? Their website, their warehouses, and all the other, unrelated websites that are hosted on their off-season servers? Because doesn't it seem like they're really going to collapse, and violently

 

*Hi-yo, old, terrible joke!

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