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iFixit dings new 21.5-inch iMac for low repairability as shipping times increase - Page 4

post #121 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran View Post

How dare Apple not consult iFixit on the ease of repair and upgradability before designing their products.

 

Ridiculous comment IMO.   iFixit did not ask Apple to consult them.   Sites like this one legitimately have criticisms of Apple's and other products.   It's perfectly legitimate to criticize Apple's products and how easy it is to upgrade or repair them when it's warranted.   If you disagree with the conclusion, argue the point rationally.    But if your argument is "like Apple's products no matter what or go buy something else" then any review site should just shut down because they serve no purpose.

 

While I care far less about repairability than upgradability, I think Apple has made a bad tradeoff for consumers.   I have upgraded, over time, virtually all of my Apple computers at one point or another.    I had a G4 tower and I upgraded the memory, changed out the hard disk twice and converted the original read-only CD drive to a read/write drive.    I now have a late 2008 MacBook pro and I was able to quite easily switch out the hard disk for a larger unit when I ran out of storage space.   I purchased the machine with upgraded memory, but it's nice to know that I can still upgrade it myself with more memory and that I don't have to buy that memory from Apple.

 

Apple is now forcing consumers to make memory and hard disk decisions up front and not letting them upgrade (for the most part) after the fact.   If you run out of disk space, tough, you either have to buy an external drive or buy a new computer.      I don't consider that very friendly.     IMO, we're giving away too much because of Apple's obsession with thinness.   Thinness is great, but not at the cost of not being able to upgrade a machine.     

 

I also happen to be a long-time Nikon camera user.   But Nikon recently changed their repair policy in that they no longer sell parts to third parties, not even simple user-replacable parts like a battery door.   They've also substantially increased their own repair prices AND they have a big backlog, so if you send them a camera or lens, it make take months to get it back.    I consider that to be very consumer unfriendly as well. 

 

It's perfectly legitimate to criticize this.    

post #122 of 180
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post
Ridiculous comment IMO.   iFixit did not ask Apple to consult them.

 

Wait a minute…


Apple is now forcing consumers to make memory and hard disk decisions up front…

 

The iMac has never had a hard drive that was easy to get to. As for RAM, I think of it more that Apple is forcing themselves to make memory decisions up front. Once their entire line goes to unmodifiable RAM chips, they'll know exactly how many of their users have how much RAM, and they can write software around those numbers. 

 

Can't write something that hogs 6GB of RAM when a majority of your userbase only has 8, yeah? Boom; stuff's made slimmer.


…not at the cost of not being able to upgrade a machine.

 

This is going to be seen as an archaic mindset very soon, and Steve will finally get his first really unfulfilled wish.

 

…not even simple user-replacable parts like a battery door.

 

Crap. Maybe I should go find a replacement door for my CoolPix right now, then… Or maybe buy from a company that doesn't use battery doors, and therefore doesn't have battery doors that break all the dang time under normal use. Thanks for the tip, though!

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #123 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Why doesn't iFixit just take apart PC's? Would be much happier I think.

Because people are already doing that - out of frustration perhaps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simtub View Post

Oh wow, this iMac was assembled in USA!! Production does happen in USA afterall.

You missed the pic in step 6:



And I missed the sticker: "copied in South Korea"
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave2012 View Post

It's actually quite easy for us 'ordinary' users - the Mac Mini has an excellently written and illustrated manual. These manuals have been a great Apple tradition for years!

Which manual would that be? The Service Manual; only for Authorized Personnel Only? Or did you get a written service manual with your Mini?
Quote:
There are millions of users and it's impossible to generalise on their requirements, so in my opinion this Imac would be a better product if there was user access to the RAM and hard drive for those who need access.

Those who need access get a Mac Pro, because of that very fact.
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post #124 of 180
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post
You missed the pic in step 6:

 

That's the display panel only.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #125 of 180
Ah, ok. Well, that's a good thing for patriotic Americans then!

edit: Tim also mentioned this at AllThingD about the iPhone "some parts are made in the USA". I am looking forward to next weeks' interview.
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post #126 of 180

Again we have the classic battle between the techie tinkerers and the normal users. I notice, however, that the naysayers have changed their tunes a bit. They used to come into threads like this one predicting the product D.O.A. or Epic Fail. Then they of course had to slink away when whatever it was sold like there was no tomorrow (think iPhone 4 and original iPad). They still rant and rave of course but there are no more doomsday predictions, just lamentations that only stupid people buy Apple and that the iSheep will buy anything.

 

That stupendously ugly piece of trash posted by Tallest Skil is right up their alley however.

post #127 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Half the price for RAM that neither these web companies are installing and typically have a 30 day warranty and after that require you go through the RAM vendor. What you're dissing is the cost of convenience.

 

You're starting to sound like an Apple apologist. Installing? Seriously? We're paying double for them to INSTALL it? While they're assembling the machine anyway? They are MAKING it a cost of convenience by making it really really really really inconvenient for me or anyone else to do it.

 

As for the 30 day warranty, read what I wrote. Crucial offers a LIFETIME warranty and still comes in at half of what Apple's upgrade costs.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

If you don't like Apple's prices you have the option to upgrade your own RAM [...]
 

 

But that's the point of this whole discussion! Apple is making it damn near impossible for the user to open their machines, so while the option does technically exist, in real-life terms it's NOT a genuine option. I do not have the means to remove the glued-on face of an iMac, and I'm a handy type.

 

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

[...] or not buy products from Apple.
 

I guess, but I can't imagine this trend towards commodification of Apple computers being good for shareholders in the long term. "Better" is the whole reason most of us came to Apple in the first place. When the way to get the best hardware configurations is to NOT buy Apple, I think that's a problem.

 

Okay, I guess that's not completely fair. One CAN get top-line configurations from Apple, but only at prices much higher than other sources for EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

post #128 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

You're starting to sound like an Apple apologist. Installing? Seriously? We're paying double for them to INSTALL it?

I never said that it was double to install it. I stated multiple reasons why a vendor would charge more for RAM upgrades than it costs them to buy at wholesale. You don't have to like it but you have to accept it.
Quote:
As for the 30 day warranty, read what I wrote. Crucial offers a LIFETIME warranty and still comes in at half of what Apple's upgrade costs.

And how exactly does that warranty work? I make a claim that the RAM is bad and Crucial will send me a box to ship my 27" iMac to them on their dime? Of course not!

Surely you understand how these companies that sell components with lifetime warranties work.
Quote:
But that's the point of this whole discussion! Apple is making it damn near impossible for the user to open their machines, so while the option does technically exist, in real-life terms it's NOT a genuine option.

Looks pretty damn easy on the 27" iMac.
Quote:
I do not have the means to remove the glued-on face of an iMac, and I'm a handy type.

You have no means of getting a guitar pick and rolling it around the seam?
Quote:
I guess, but I can't imagine this trend towards commodification of Apple computers being good for shareholders in the long term. "Better" is the whole reason most of us came to Apple in the first place. When the way to get the best hardware configurations is to NOT buy Apple, I think that's a problem.

That's a completely different discussion and your opinion on that matter is a valid one. However, this isn't Apple's first push in this direction and yet their Macs seem to be even more and more popular. And let's not forget that notebooks have always been less upgradable than desktops yet are more popular with customers than desktops, and iDevices are considerably more popular than them and yet have nothing the user can service themselves.

The fact is your wishes for a wildly upgradable CE just isn't what drives the market so I'd say that your fears of a declining stock price are unfounded. That is not to say your wishes are unreasonable but your expectations are.
Quote:
Okay, I guess that's not completely fair. One CAN get top-line configurations from Apple, but only at prices much higher than other sources for EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

No, you can't get exactly the same thing from other vendors. It's impossible. You can pair components to create a reasonable comparison along many aspects but it's not EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

We seems to see less of it these days as Apple has gotten even farther ahead in the "PC" market but we used to see many claims that this of that WinPC was better but cheaper than some Mac. These comparisons never looked at the display quality or battery life or build quality or any other relevant factor that makes me a returning Mac customer. I guess the focus has changed to say things like "Android phones have had LTE for years now" which is a great example of the poster not understanding the difference between LTE in the iPhone 5 and LTE chips in obsolete Android phones.
Edited by SolipsismX - 12/2/12 at 3:22pm

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post #129 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Now I know there are people that would dispute me on this, but I've owned Macs starting with the 128K Mac to a 27" iMac and have not had a single repair issue in all these years... including my laptops from a Duo to a MBP. Every HD has rum flawlessly until the day I unplug the Mac and set it aside for my newer Mac. I've only upgraded the RAM three times in my Macs in the last 28 years. Macs just work. All this crap about repairability must be a Windows PC thing, but it's not an Apple thing.

 

You have been incredibly lucky. Of the seven Macs our family has owned since we switched at the end of 2007, six have had a fault that required a repair: four MacBook Pros, one Mini, and one Pro tower. Worn out hard drives, bad RAM, fan failure, ALL of the optical drives... nothing particularly remarkable or unusual -- mostly mechanical parts -- but not the kind of invulnerability you've enjoyed.

post #130 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

You have been incredibly lucky. Of the seven Macs our family has owned since we switched at the end of 2007, six have had a fault that required a repair: four MacBook Pros, one Mini, and one Pro tower. Worn out hard drives, bad RAM, fan failure, ALL of the optical drives... nothing particularly remarkable or unusual -- mostly mechanical parts -- but not the kind of invulnerability you've enjoyed.

 

Sorry to hear that. I don't think he's "lucky". Rather, statistically, you are unlucky. My experience:

iBook G3 - 2001 - still operational, no repairs needed

PowerBook G4 - 2006 - still operational, no repairs needed

MacBook Pro 2008 - still operational, no repairs needed

MacBook Air 2010 - still operational, no repairs needed

 

On the PC side, I've owned various BYO Windows machines over the 15 years with just two that blew capacitors, two that had RAM chips fail, and one statistically very unlucky Pentium 4-based PC that had a string of failures, including a ball bearing that failed on a cooling fan, bad RAM, bad DVD-drive. But these failures are still in the minority. My brand-named office PCs are similar: just one DELL workstation out of 5 PCs failed (blow capacitor) in the last decade.

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post #131 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

You have been incredibly lucky. Of the seven Macs our family has owned since we switched at the end of 2007, six have had a fault that required a repair: four MacBook Pros, one Mini, and one Pro tower. Worn out hard drives, bad RAM, fan failure, ALL of the optical drives... nothing particularly remarkable or unusual -- mostly mechanical parts -- but not the kind of invulnerability you've enjoyed.

 

I guess I have been incredibly lucky too. The only problem I ever had was the power supply on my Power Mac 8100 and I have been an Apple customer since 1982. From my perspective YOU are the unlucky one and I am the norm.

post #132 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You don't get to decide what that means.

 

I'm able to decide what's reasonable to me, and I think it's pretty safe to generalize about DOUBLE the going rate being considered unreasonable by most sensible shoppers. If the car rental company charged you TWICE the rate at the pumps to fill up the car when you return it, and glued on the gas cap, would you not feel comfortable calling that "unreasonable?" I would, and I think most people would. If you wouldn't, you are either the most easy-going person on Earth or lacking in value perception.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

If these prices weren't already reasonable, people wouldn't pay them. They're fine.

 

You think so, huh? The consensus here appears to be that people are NOT paying those prices, which is why they're upset about now being forced to.

 

Of course, the only way to know for sure is to consult sales stats for BTO RAM and storage upgrades, which I don't think you or I will ever see.

post #133 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Povilas View Post

How many hard drives have failed you? I had this honour two times in 20 years. I even have 512 MB IBM drives still running with no bad sectors.

 

I have no idea how you have managed that. I have never, ever, kept a machine in use for more than three years without a hard drive replacement. Never. Maybe my use patterns are more drive intensive than yours?

post #134 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

I have no idea how you have managed that. I have never, ever, kept a machine in use for more than three years without a hard drive replacement. Never. Maybe my use patterns are more drive intensive than yours?

I say I haven't used a desktop PC for personal use in almost 15 years but that's entire accurate. I bought a 1GHz iMac back in the day — the ones with the round base and swivel flatscreen — for my niece and nephew. They've since outgrown and I was able to get it back. No keyboard or mouse connected by SSH was enabled so I was able to find enough Terminal commands to get screen sharing enabled. I now have it on my desk awaiting my 27" iMac to take its place. It's only use now is to connect to a Cisco router in my rack (one that connects to the rest of my Cisco equipment via an 8 port async cable), but I digress.

Anyway, it's still the original configuration with no mods and it's working fine despite about a decade of use. I think your history is very atypical.


PS: I'd like to mod this beautiful machine with Mac mini internals and a new display but I think to do it right would be too much trouble. It would be easy to place a Mac mini inside but I want ports to line up, I want a Time Capsule inside (with the Mac mini connected via GigE), I want the display to be IPS and higher resolution, and hopefully larger but in a casing that matches the exterior.

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post #135 of 180
Professional mac user = 20 years
Macs owned (inc employees) = 50
Current personal macs = 9
Hardware failure/repairs = 2
upgrades (MacPros only) = 2

repairability care factor = bwaahhhaa

Its just not relevant
post #136 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

I have no idea how you have managed that. I have never, ever, kept a machine in use for more than three years without a hard drive replacement. Never. Maybe my use patterns are more drive intensive than yours?


I wouldn't say that it's typical to replace hard drives every 3 years in a Mac but replacing them is a lot more common than some people would have you believe. My v.2 G5 iMac went through 2 hard drives in 4 years. I gave up after the 3rd one gave up the ghost after 16 months... and it had been replaced by Apple. I think there was a heat issue in that particular version of the G5.

 

Otherwise I haven't had any other problems with drives... but then again, when it was easy to service them I would buy my own drives, so maybe the quality was better.

 

The only other fault I've had is with my Intel mid 2007 iMac. Apparently there were a few that went out the door with bad graphics cards. Won't let me upgrade beyond 10.6.2. By the time I found out about the problem it was too late and Apple wanted nothing to do with it. Couldn't sell it, couldn't upgrade the OS... so I've just kept it running... and, of course, it will probably run for the next 15 years.  1smile.gif

 

[I've owned over 20 macs in the last 24 years]


Edited by island hermit - 12/2/12 at 5:26pm
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post #137 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I never said that it was double to install it. I stated multiple reasons why a vendor would charge more for RAM upgrades than it costs them to buy at wholesale. You don't have to like it but you have to accept it.

 

Fair enough. Point taken.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The fact is your wishes for a wildly upgradable CE just isn't what drives the market so I'd say that your fears of a declining stock price are unfounded. That is not to say your wishes are unreasonable but your expectations are.

 

Hm, so what you're saying is that not everyone has the same expectations I do? Are you sure? It certainly seems to ME that they SHOULD. I'll have to give that some thought...

 

(wanders away mumbling and confused...)

 

1wink.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

[...] we used to see many claims that this of that WinPC was better but cheaper than some Mac. These comparisons never looked at the display quality or battery life or build quality or any other relevant factor that makes me a returning Mac customer.

 

I totally get that, and that's why I paid almost $4000 for my last MBP after AppleCare and tax rather than the roughly $3000-$3500ish it would have cost for the Asus hotrod I was considering as an alternative. My feeling is that they're getting their pound of flesh (454g in Canada) and then some on the purchase price -- no other computer makes comes CLOSE to the margins Apple manages to persuade us to let them enjoy -- and punching us in the nuts over upgrades is just... well, greedy. Again, I'm NOT asking for parts at cost, but even just similar margins to what they make on their machines: 30-35 points over cost, which would make the end user price roughly 25% more than third-party alternatives. THAT would be in the range that calling it a "convenience fee" would reasonable, and I'd be less upset about Apple sealing up the chassis.

post #138 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


I wouldn't say that it's typical to replace hard drives every 3 years in a Mac but replacing them is a lot more common than some people would have you believe. My v.2 G5 iMac went through 2 hard drives in 4 years. I gave up after the 3rd one gave up the ghost after 16 months... and it had been replaced by Apple. I think there was a heat issue in that particular version of the G5.

 

Otherwise I haven't had any other problems with drives... but then again, when it was easy to service them I would buy my own drives, so maybe the quality was better.

 

The only other fault I've had is with my Intel mid 2007 iMac. Apparently there were a few that went out the door with bad graphics cards. Won't let me upgrade beyond 10.6.2. By the time I found out about the problem it was too late and Apple wanted nothing to do with it. Couldn't sell it, couldn't upgrade the OS... so I've just kept it running... and, of course, it will probably run for the next 15 years.  1smile.gif

 

[I've owned over 20 macs in the last 24 years]

 

I've been a Mac owner since the 1st one in 1984. The iMac G5s were not Apple's shining moment. Luckily, when we upgraded, we were saddled with only a few of those hot, temperamental machines. Remember those loud fans? And the bulging capacitors. And the freezing from the extreme heat generated. And the wonky, vibrating superdrive.

 

That was my one machine that failed utterly and completely. One day, went to the office, hit the power button, and sat there in disbelief. Too much heat.

 

That was the one model that got away from Apple in terms of quality control.

post #139 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You have no means of getting a guitar pick and rolling it around the seam?

Quote:

"To our dismay, we're forced to break out our heat gun"

 

Quote:

"You'll have to masterfully peel off the old double-sided sticky tape and apply new tape in order to reseal this iMac into original condition".


Edited by hentaiboy - 12/2/12 at 6:21pm
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post #140 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

That's the problem for many of us. All these changes seem to benefit Apple and not the consumer. Any desktop computer should have easy access to exchanging a hard drive which tend to fail after a certain amount of time, usually the day after the warranty expires. They should also allow easy access to upgrade the RAM. It seems Apple is making it more difficult to steer you towards buying a new iMac in a few years rather than trying to keep the one you have in working condition. 

"should have"? Says who?

And don't give me that crap about there being no consumer benefit. Just a few off the top of my head:

1. Higher reliability. A system where components can be easily replaced is subject to things coming loose during shipping or picking up dust later. Apple's products consistently get extremely high quality and reliability ratings.

2. Lighter and thinner. While YOU may not think it's a benefit, lots of consumers obviously do - which is shown by the rapid sale of Apple's products.

3. Environmentally more benign - which ultimately benefits everyone.

Apple made a tradeoff- they are offering an appliance-like computer which is built for reliability and size rather than making it easy for consumers to fiddle around inside. If you really must have that, I understand that Dell is still selling computers. They can help you. Meanwhile, people who are not interested in playing around inside their computers are still buying Macs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

And to others saying Apple RAM is such high quality, you better check your facts. They use Hynix and other medium quality brands typically. They do not use some magical or ultra-premium brand memory or hard drives. There is no justification for them to charge 2 to 3 times retail price when they already get a huge discount off retail since they buy in bulk quantity. 

See below. You're wrong on both the specs and the price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

No one is expecting Apple to offer upgrades "at cost." We're asking for prices that are *reasonable* compared to the *retail* prices of RAM on the open market. Do you think Apple pays the same price you or I do for RAM? Obviously not.

Who gets to say what's 'reasonable'? You?

Apple's upgrade costs are easily in line with the rest of the industry. Why should they cut their margin even more?

Furthermore, you have no idea what Apple pays. First, you don't have the specs - and Apple has traditionally chosen the best RAM available. Second, in a spot market like RAM, it is not uncommon for RAM prices to the consumer to be lower than the contract price. An OEM has to pay a premium to guarantee availability and then what's left over gets sold on the spot market. If there's a glut, the spot price is often below the contract price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

Who's talking about "cheapo RAM?" Prices for Crucial or the best Samsung sticks are literally HALF the price Apple charges. Double the retail price of *good* RAM is gouging when they make it nearly impossible to upgrade it ourselves, thus practically forcing us to buy it from them.

Why don't you show us EXACTLY the same RAM at 1/2 Apple's price. Same manufacturing process, same environmental status, same latency, same quality, same reliability, etc. Everyone always talks about "exactly the same thing" but it rarely turns out to be true.
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post #141 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

Again, I'm NOT asking for parts at cost, but even just similar margins to what they make on their machines: 30-35 points over cost, which would make the end user price roughly 25% more than third-party alternatives. THAT would be in the range that calling it a "convenience fee" would reasonable, and I'd be less upset about Apple sealing up the chassis.

But you can't look at an individual BTO options and compare it to some off the shelf component.

For starters, it can have the exact same branding right down to the part number but that doesn't mean it's the same. We see this more with CPUs where there are power envelopes and performance variances that favour chips cut form the very same wafer. The Hynix RAM Apple used in that iFixit teardown is 1.35V whereas most I've seen is 1.5V. It's also lead and halogen free yet I haven't seen a single reseller state that for 3rd-party RAM; note that being environmentally friendly should matter to every buyer but it's something Apple does look it because they can market it. That does cost extra as well as likely testing the RAM they get more thoroughly before putting it in their machines because of the excessive mindshare Apple has on them. Hynix can sell Crucial perfectly usable RAM that didn't make the cut for Apple's machines (perhaps that's why there is a voltage difference) and it's not an issue because outside of a spattering of tech forums no one even knows the that Hynix exists.

But that's the least of the reasons you shouldn't compare a BTO options to some off the shelf component from some website. The biggest reason is that Apple doesn't set a magic base unit price that gets their intended profit margin with everything else being gravy. They consider the number of sales for the product with predicted BTO options across the board when they set their goals. You're coming at this as if the base model is some ideal price for Apple and then they bait-and-switch-then-rape you to get you into a "usable" machine (yes, that's intended hyperbole). That simply isn't the case. It's much more likely the base model is below their intended profit margin so they can have a lower starting point with the BTO options intended to bring it back up their sweet spot.

Their sweet spot. Not yours. We all want to pay less but that's life. If a product is popular the company can demand more money for it, especially if it's hard to get. Apple has a great deal of experience with demand exceeding their ability to supply enough units thus they can ask for more money. If you want a company to profit less there are plenty that are struggling with razor thin profits but remember a great deal of Apple's prowess in their respective markets is in their efficiency.

I feel I'll get more value from a $2600 27" iMac than I would from any other PC vendor's product (or any of Apple's other Mac configurations) so that is what I'm getting. It's unlikely I will be regretful of my decision.

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post #142 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by hentaiboy View Post

Quote:
"To our dismay, we're forced to break out our heat gun"

Quote:
"You'll have to masterfully peel off the old double-sided sticky tape and apply new tape in order to reseal this iMac into original condition".

OWC has a video of them removing the display quickly by rolling a guitar pick.
Edited by SolipsismX - 12/2/12 at 6:50pm

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post #143 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

They got their start as a "Mac DIY instructions" site, and then they started selling parts…

And then they branched out into DIY for everything, apparently. I think it's more a tribute to their roots than anything else that they even stick with the Mac stuff, but they're sure not giving a very kind tribute.

No charity here. Apple news attracts visitors. If iFixit stopped talking about Apple just because Apple makes tough to tear apart products, their site would be less relevant by a mile!
post #144 of 180

Well ... one main issue with the previous iMac was that you could easily get dust between the glass and the panel when reassembling it. This problem is gone now. Unfortunately Apple decided not to go with magnets anymore, which makes disassembly a little harder ...

post #145 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Why don't you show us EXACTLY the same RAM at 1/2 Apple's price. Same manufacturing process, same environmental status, same latency, same quality, same reliability, etc. Everyone always talks about "exactly the same thing" but it rarely turns out to be true.

 

I forgot that Macs use SuperSelect MagicRAM fortified with iron, niacin and nine essential vitamins, hand-made from the finest organically grown fair-trade silicon wafers and individually selected and inspected by an ordained member of the Appleminati clergy.

 

It would be irresponsible, nay, BLASPHEMOUS to install mere top-of-the-dirty-corrupt-line Crucial or Samsung RAM. Can you imagine the system corruption that would wreak?

 

There is absolutely no question in my mind that the RAM Apple uses is SOOOO superior to the comparative dreck that is available to lowly peons like me that it is clearly, obviously and unquestionably worth TWICE as much. At least.

 

Sorry for the good-natured ribbing, but seriously, I just don't believe that Apple is using parts so special they cost oodles more than even the really good stuff from reputable suppliers.

 

And to answer one of your questions, yes, I do think it's fair for me to make a judgement about what constitutes a "reasonable" price for upgrades. ANYONE can compare alternatives and see that Apple is simply gouging, period. In case you missed it, I presented Tallest with an analogy: You rent a car and when you go to fill it up before returning it, you find the gas cap is glued on. You can either find a way to pry it off, hire a mechanic, or pay the car rental company twice the price at the pumps across the street. Would you not consider that unreasonable? How is what we're discussing any different?

post #146 of 180
Wow, what a lame post, v5v. Sorry, my opinion - ignore it as it's just someone's opinion.

Personally I think some components in Apple gear are more expensive that the competition is due to the fact that they have better after sales service, which isn't always included with the competition. Hence the markup in price. But this is just in addition to the (in my opinion valid) statements made by SolipsismX and jragosta previously.
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post #147 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Wow, what a lame post, v5v. Sorry, my opinion - ignore it as it's just someone's opinion.

 

Yeah, but I value your opinion, so...

 

Lame as in "not funny" or "clearly operating at below accepted tolerances?"

 

FWIW, Solipsism and jr are also people I consider to be sharper than your average razor blade, so I don't mean any disrespect. I just don't think using fancy RAM (if they even do) is enough to account for the rather large premium Apple is asking. The last thing I did before logging in here was read several posts on http://27bslash6.com so I may have been channelling a little bit of David Thorne in my comments!

 

I'd like to think we can disagree without prejudice, and be able to dislike some of Apple's practices and products while still quite liking others. Sometimes it seems like around here "yer either with us or agin' us."

post #148 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Wow, what a lame post, v5v. Sorry, my opinion - ignore it as it's just someone's opinion.

Yeah, but I value your opinion, so...

Lame as in "not funny" or "clearly operating at below accepted tolerances?"

Sorry, as in not funny. Again, to me (this is important).
Quote:
FWIW, Solipsism and jr are also people I consider to be sharper than your average razor blade

Haven't heard that one before (I'm not American) but eh, good one!
Quote:
, so I don't mean any disrespect. I just don't think using fancy RAM (if they even do) is enough to account for the rather large premium Apple is asking.

No disrespect experienced. Their premium is indeed rather large. With a Mac Pro I always buy the minimum RAM from Apple and buy my Kingston or whatever elsewhere. I did once experienced bad RAM, couldn;t return it so I was the fool. With laptops, I just max out while ordering.
Quote:
The last thing I did before logging in here was read several posts on http://27bslash6.com so I may have been channelling a little bit of David Thorne in my comments!

That site is too funny. Even without reading it, go figure!
Quote:
I'd like to think we can disagree without prejudice, and be able to dislike some of Apple's practices and products while still quite liking others. Sometimes it seems like around here "yer either with us or agin' us."

Yeah some folks here are indeed strong advocates. Personally I'm quite biased, but always keep my mind open. To Apple competitors, and others' opinions.
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post #149 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Exactly. I believe there was actually a report on this some time ago - and the number of people who ever upgrade their computers is actually quite small. So why make all the compromises necessary to add a capability that's not going to be used?

 

I've put an SSD into my MacBook and am awaiting delivery of RAM upgrades for the same MacBook and two iMacs. One motivation: knowing that the newer Macs are even harder to open and upgrade. Ironically the fact that Apple is making newer models even harder to take apart is increasing my tendency to upgrade rather than buy a newer faster model and sell the older ones to less demanding users.

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post #150 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

I forgot that Macs use SuperSelect MagicRAM fortified with iron, niacin and nine essential vitamins, hand-made from the finest organically grown fair-trade silicon wafers and individually selected and inspected by an ordained member of the Appleminati clergy.

It would be irresponsible, nay, BLASPHEMOUS to install mere top-of-the-dirty-corrupt-line Crucial or Samsung RAM. Can you imagine the system corruption that would wreak?

There is absolutely no question in my mind that the RAM Apple uses is SOOOO superior to the comparative dreck that is available to lowly peons like me that it is clearly, obviously and unquestionably worth TWICE as much. At least.

Sorry for the good-natured ribbing, but seriously, I just don't believe that Apple is using parts so special they cost oodles more than even the really good stuff from reputable suppliers.

And to answer one of your questions, yes, I do think it's fair for me to make a judgement about what constitutes a "reasonable" price for upgrades. ANYONE can compare alternatives and see that Apple is simply gouging, period. In case you missed it, I presented Tallest with an analogy: You rent a car and when you go to fill it up before returning it, you find the gas cap is glued on. You can either find a way to pry it off, hire a mechanic, or pay the car rental company twice the price at the pumps across the street. Would you not consider that unreasonable? How is what we're discussing any different?

I would strongly suggest that you take a course in critical thinking so that you could learn to discuss things rationally rather than your inane whining comments.

There are a number of differences that Apple RAM can have - without resorting to the garbage in your first paragraph. Historically, there is precedent for Apple having done all of the following:

1. Environmental compliance. Apple uses more environmentally benign processes.
2. Lower latency. Much of the cheapo RAM is very high latency.
3. Tighter tolerances. This one is especially true on things like capacitors, but also applies to RAM.
4. Higher levels of testing.

There are a number of cases where use of third party RAM has caused problems while using Apple RAM does not. Unfortunately, the people who have those problems often blame Apple, anyway.

You make a personal choice. Either you want to install a crappy oil filter in your Lexus or you install quality parts. Similarly, you can use RAM which meets all of Apple's specs (which is more expensive) or buy cheap RAM and suffer the consequences. No one is stopping you from doing the latter, although Apple isn't making it easy for you.

Apple's upgrade prices are very reasonable. Quality RAM (ignoring the real cheap junk) would cost $100-150 instead of the $200 Apple is charging - and even that may not meet all of Apple's specs. That's similar to what everyone else charges for RAM upgrades.
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post #151 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

2. Lower latency. Much of the cheapo RAM is very high latency.

It may be in other cases, in this case it's not true. PC3 12800 is available in CL 9, 10 and 11. CL 10 and 11 are readily available. This batch of iMacs have CL11 installed.
Edited by JeffDM - 12/3/12 at 7:44am
post #152 of 180

The bottom line is this is all about money and nothing else.  If users are willing to spend $200 on 8GB of RAM, then why shouldn't apple earn as much as possible? No one is forcing you to buy an iMac.

post #153 of 180
Originally Posted by v5v View Post
I'm able to decide what's reasonable to me..

 

Right, and you can either buy an iMac… or not buy an iMac.

 

…the going rate…

 

You can buy RAM identical to that which Apple uses for half that price? Any links?

 

The consensus here…

 

Is completely and utterly meaningless, as you well know, due to the inherent skew in this argument.

 

appears to be that people are NOT paying those prices

 

And, obviously, they ARE, given that, you know, Apple still charges them.

 

Of course, the only way to know for sure is to consult sales stats for BTO RAM and storage upgrades…

 

Or you could look at the prices and note that the prices are the prices, and they're the prices because people are paying those prices. If they weren't, they wouldn't be.

Originally posted by Marvin

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post #154 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Furthermore, you have no idea what Apple pays. First, you don't have the specs - and Apple has traditionally chosen the best RAM available. Second, in a spot market like RAM, it is not uncommon for RAM prices to the consumer to be lower than the contract price. An OEM has to pay a premium to guarantee availability and then what's left over gets sold on the spot market. If there's a glut, the spot price is often below the contract price.Why don't you show us EXACTLY the same RAM at 1/2 Apple's price. Same manufacturing process, same environmental status, same latency, same quality, same reliability, etc. Everyone always talks about "exactly the same thing" but it rarely turns out to be true.

 

The last time I changed memory I swapped out apple supplied crucial ram for crucial supplied crucial ram of higher density.  Same timings, part number family (just bigger), etc.

 

Are you claiming some magic pixie dust version of these commodity parts?  For the 5200 RPM drive?  For the RAM?  Really?  You can buy the same RAM found in the iFixit teardown across the net.  It's the same Hynix RAM with the same timings, part number, etc.

 

Apple doesn't choose the best XXX available.  It chooses the most efficient XXX available for the build and that's different.  Hence the 5200 RPM travelstar in the base iMac build.  It leads performance per watt but trails in overall performance.

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/notebook-hard-drive-review,3270-3.html

 

 

The fact is that losing the ability to install your own RAM and replace the HDD is a significant negative to anyone with semi-competent family technical support.  I'm reasonably competent and I have no desire to install RAM into the new 21" iMac.  

 

For a semi-future proof iMac you need to get the 2.9Ghz Core i5 and upgrade to 16GB + Fusion.  That's $1,950.

post #155 of 180
If the RAM is user upgradable, how would Apple ever know how often RAM is upgraded? Sure, they sell RAM on their site, but anyone with enough on the ball to do it themselves will be buying memory at Crucial or OWC. Does every mac secretly phone home when it's configuration changes?
post #156 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

This is going to be seen as an archaic mindset very soon, and Steve will finally get his first really unfulfilled wish.

You do realize that he was wishing for the tidal wave of money to get larger, not for some promised land of computing goodness, don't you?

post #157 of 180
Originally Posted by Conrail View Post
You do realize that he was wishing for the tidal wave of money to get larger, not for some promised land of computing goodness, don't you?

 

You do realize that the wish to which I'm alluding is for a completely closed computer, don't you? He disliked the Apple ][ in this regard and so made the Macintosh as closed as possible. 

 

I don't know where your "promised land" FUD is coming from or what you're trying to imply by it, but go ahead.

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post #158 of 180
I have upgraded the RAM is just about every Mac I've owned in the last 8 years, so easy access to the RAM chips is important to me. I have also had my fair share of hard drives fail on me, so easy access to replace those is also important to me. I know I can always have Apple do the work for me, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper to do it myself.
post #159 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I would strongly suggest that you take a course in critical thinking so that you could learn to discuss things rationally rather than your inane whining comments.

 

I wasn't whining, I was going for a cheap laugh. Based on the responses so far, it would appear that there may be a reason I mix and edit for a living instead of writing for Leno...

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

There are a number of differences that Apple RAM can have - without resorting to the garbage in your first paragraph. Historically, there is precedent for Apple having done all of the following:
1. Environmental compliance. Apple uses more environmentally benign processes.
2. Lower latency. Much of the cheapo RAM is very high latency.
3. Tighter tolerances. This one is especially true on things like capacitors, but also applies to RAM.
4. Higher levels of testing.

 

I believe you. I just don't believe that it's that much better than premium parts from a reputable third-party supplier, nor that it's different enough to justify the enormity of the price premium they're asking.

 

Maybe it's better, maybe, but not THAT much better.

post #160 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrail View Post

If the RAM is user upgradable, how would Apple ever know how often RAM is upgraded? Sure, they sell RAM on their site, but anyone with enough on the ball to do it themselves will be buying memory at Crucial or OWC. Does every mac secretly phone home when it's configuration changes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

I believe you. I just don't believe that it's that much better than premium parts from a reputable third-party supplier, nor that it's different enough to justify the enormity of the price premium they're asking.

Maybe it's better, maybe, but not THAT much better.

You need to define "better." You're stilling looking at it from some component spec but a buyer might look at the time saved between choosing more RAM when buying their Mac over going to some 3rd-party site to hunt down the right RAM, having it shipped to them (perhaps from a company they've never used), and then installing it themselves or having someone else do it as a favour or for a fee as "better."

Not everyone is tech savvy. Not everyone who is tech savvy wants to do spend the time doing tech things. I know that if I were to buy a 21.5" iMac and wanted to use the SSD card for Fusion Drive I would just buy it from Apple because I do not want to solder in my own mini-PCIe slot that houses the SSD card. I have the tools and could figure it out (assuming that is the only component missing) but that isn't something I want to do. Sure, RAM is considerably easier to install but that doesn't mean it's something everyone wants to or could do.

Do you do your own car repairs?I like to but there are times when I just don't want to bother. If it's monotonous and frequentI chore like washing my car I tend to pay someone else to do it even though I have the equipment and would probably do a better job. Still, it's a convenience I gladly pay for. Same goes to grabbing a meal at a fast food restaurant.

I simply don't understand why this convenience option from this one PC vendor creates such an issue with people on tech forums and yet seems to go unnoticed with everything else in the world.

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