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iFixit dings new 21.5-inch iMac for low repairability as shipping times increase - Page 2

post #41 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

They're biased by virtue of the fact that they sell parts for the things. Their ratings shouldn't be seen as unexpected, they should just be seen within that context.
No... They aren't biased. They are assessing self-repair. That's hand in hand with selling aftermarket parts.
Would they love for it to be more accessible so 1% more people would repair themself? Sure. But that doesn't change the rating. They charge themself the task of rating a self-repair. What would you rate it? An 8? No.. Probably a 3. Lol

A side note- Wouldn't a higher rating give self confidence to people to repair it themself and then buy the parts- even if they can't do it Ifixit makes a sale? If anything- they only lose out by rating low.

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2012 27" iMac i7, 2010 27" iMac i7, 2011 Mac Mini i5
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post #42 of 180
Much as I don't like non repairable stuff, after seeing it in the store today, I must say it is totally worth any trade off. This is the first time I have ever been tempted to buy an imac. They really are not easy to service, but its perfectly doable.

Because it is so hard to service, I would like to see 2 changes to the customization options:
*Lower the ram prices, come on - $600 for like $120 worth of ram (4x 8gb sodimms on Newegg)
*More cost effective Soid State options - Forget the hybrid drives, or at least offer a lightly less rediculously priced ssd option than the 768GB deal...Come on - just give me a 256 GB SSD in place of the 2tb hdd without the extra $1300 charge...
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post #43 of 180
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post
A side note- Wouldn't a higher rating give self confidence to people to repair it themself and then buy the parts- even if they can't do it Ifixit makes a sale? If anything- they only lose out by rating low.

 

This is, of course, pretending that resellerratings.com (and related sites) doesn't exist.

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post #44 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Yes and no. The ram on the 21.5 is listed as non user serviceable which makes doing it a warranty void. The ram on the 27 that it ships with is soldered and non serviceable but there are two slots that are okay for users to fill themselves

Odd that Island Hermit and you disagree with me (Island Hermit even given you a thumbs up saying "Exactly!") despite you repeating what I said except switching out user-accesible for user-serviceable. AI has altered the text to reflect iFixit's findings that it's possible but not easy to do, unlike with the MBAs and RMBPs where it's not possible.

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post #45 of 180

Of course it's serviceable - you take it to the Genius Bar and they either fix it for you or give you a new one.

 

I'm too old, too busy and make too much money to waste my time effing with a busted PC.  I have people to do that.  I'd no more screw around with a broken computer than I would with a broken washing machine.  And I'm certain that 99% of the people who can afford an iMac feel the exact same way.

 

But it's always nice to hear from the pocket-protector wearing, "I'm 35 years old and haven't figured out how to brush my teeth yet" set.

post #46 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

Much as I don't like non repairable stuff, after seeing it in the store today, I must say it is totally worth any trade off. This is the first time I have ever been tempted to buy an imac. They really are not easy to service, but its perfectly doable.
Because it is so hard to service, I would like to see 2 changes to the customization options:
*Lower the ram prices, come on - $600 for like $120 worth of ram (4x 8gb sodimms on Newegg)
*More cost effective Soid State options - Forget the hybrid drives, or at least offer a lightly less rediculously priced ssd option than the 768GB deal...Come on - just give me a 256 GB SSD in place of the 2tb hdd without the extra $1300 charge...

If Apple is using CL9 RAM, then it's $280 worth of RAM. The lower cost RAM is CL10 or CL11. I haven't seen any clear enough pictures to identify the RAM that well.

It does seem odd how Apple is handling the drive options.
post #47 of 180
Originally Posted by sunspot42 View Post

But it's always nice to hear from the pocket-protector wearing, "I'm 35 years old and haven't figured out how to brush my teeth yet" set.

 

"I take my teeth out individually and put in a new one when they're bad. Preventative maintenance? Teeth are cheap!"

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post #48 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by simtub View Post

Oh wow, this iMac was assembled in USA!! Production does happen in USA afterall.


3rd pic of Step 3
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Intel+21.5-Inch+EMC+2544+Teardown/11936/1

That is awesome! This should be in the AI newsfeed as its own story!


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Edited by Phone-UI-Guy - 12/1/12 at 9:18pm
post #49 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Odd that Island Hermit and you disagree with me (Island Hermit even given you a thumbs up saying "Exactly!") despite you repeating what I said except switching out user-accesible for user-serviceable. AI has altered the text to reflect iFixit's findings that it's possible but not easy to do, unlike with the MBAs and RMBPs where it's not possible.

As I said... the number of people who will be willing to take off the display, remove the motherboard and void the warranty to replace/ install some ram makes the point that its user replaceable irrelevant.

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post #50 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

If Apple is using CL9 RAM, then it's $280 worth of RAM. The lower cost RAM is CL10 or CL11. I haven't seen any clear enough pictures to identify the RAM that well.
It does seem odd how Apple is handling the drive options.
http://www.crucial.com/store/mpartspecs.aspx?mtbpoid=8569D93DA5CA7304
The CAS latency and speed combo isn't on NE, but it is only $40 each so that means about $160 for 16 GB so I think my point is still valid.
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post #51 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

As I said... the number of people who will be willing to take off the display, remove the motherboard and void the warranty to replace/ install some ram makes the point that its user replaceable irrelevant.

What makes you think the warranty would be voided? Do you have any evidence to ground that claim, or are you just spewing some false hot air?
post #52 of 180
Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy View Post
That is awesome! This should be in the AI newsfeed as its own story!

 

It probably will be… on Monday.


Originally Posted by iFixit
The fused display may look awesome, but at what cost, Apple? At. What. Cost!?

 

Screw your melodrama. You want something easily reparable, make your own computer. All I see is a whiny bunch of tools.

 

I wouldn't use that except for the humor of the double entendre.

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post #53 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

http://www.crucial.com/store/mpartspecs.aspx?mtbpoid=8569D93DA5CA7304
The CAS latency and speed combo isn't on NE, but it is only $40 each so that means about $160 for 16 GB so I think my point is still valid.

That's just a compatibility chart. Crucial doesn't specify what Apple is providing, so that doesn't prove that Apple is providing CL11. CL11 will certainly work, but that doesn't mean it will be the same spec as Apple's pieces. One can get reputable CL10 for $40, so I don't know why one would bother with CL11. Newegg has CL9 at $150 for 16GB (2x8GB). It makes no sense to compare products of different specs, so finding the cheapest isn't actually saying anything if the specs don't even match, that would be called an invalid comparison.
post #54 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

As I said... the number of people who will be willing to take off the display, remove the motherboard and void the warranty to replace/ install some ram makes the point that its user replaceable irrelevant.

I cant fathom why you think a lack of distinction between RAM in the RMBP and iMac is irrelevant for would be tinkers.

I'm wondering why I need to point out this is a tech site detailing the findings of a company who markets by showing DIYers how to disassemble their electronics thus making the distinction exceedingly relevant.

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post #55 of 180
What a stupid answer. It's the job of iFixIt do analyze its upgradability and repairability. It's up to the readers do choose what to do with it.
post #56 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy View Post

That is awesome! This should be in the AI newsfeed as its own story!
NrhRdAFCS1Ag3BVB.medium

No wonder the iMac is shipping so late in the holiday quarter and cost so much for RAM upgrades¡

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post #57 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

Not being able to upgrade RAM wouldn't be that big of a deal if Apple didn't rape you on RAM upgrade prices. Do they really need to charge about 2x retail value on RAM for the 21"? They include 8GB but want to charge $200 for an extra 8GB vs half that 3rd party. I can see an extra $100, but that is just too much.

And for the 27" iMac it is even worse at $600 extra for 32GB vs. OWC (which is not even the cheapest) for $195. No reason why Apple couldn't lower RAM upgrade prices given their already high margins on the machines. It is fine when they make it easy to upgrade but when they make it very difficult to do then that almost forces you to pay through the nose for Apple RAM. 

Compare Apples to Apples please. Who is the RAM manufacturer that Apple uses? How much does that part cost via third-parties? Or perhaps you're saying you'd like to see Apple use OWC as their RAM provider? Surely there are reasons they use other brand names?
post #58 of 180
I was going to buy myself a Porsche Cayman, but discovered it was very difficult to access the engine/drivetrain. I bought a Toyota Yaris instead, because, you know, self-repairability is right next to performance and quality when choosing a car/computer.
post #59 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by macinthe408 View Post

I was going to buy myself a Porsche Cayman, but discovered it was very difficult to access the engine/drivetrain. I bought a Toyota Yaris instead, because, you know, self-repairability is right next to performance and quality when choosing a car/computer.

What? The Porsche doesn't have an accessible drivetrain? What a disposable piece of crap!
post #60 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy View Post

That is awesome! This should be in the AI newsfeed as its own story!
NrhRdAFCS1Ag3BVB.medium

Built to order items are often marked US.
post #61 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

No reason why Apple couldn't lower RAM upgrade prices given their already high margins on the machines.

I see that comment often. Note that Apple's margins include all the upgrade prices as well. It is not for a base model.

In fact, if you think that Apple is raping you on upgraded components to make their margins then you have no choice but go acknowledge that their margins would be much lower without the upgrades.

Imagine of Apple wanted to maintain the same margins but wanted to sell you upgrades at cost. Imagine what that would do to the bare model so they could average the same across the board.
Edited by SolipsismX - 12/1/12 at 9:52pm

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post #62 of 180
Originally Posted by Proximityeffect View Post
Built to order items are often marked US.

 

But this is the base model.

 

Wonder where they're assembling them.

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post #63 of 180

Apple has come down in prices for BTO upgrades over the years. Yes, it used to be WORSE than now! Maybe they will nudge down further over time, which would be a good thing. As others have cautioned, however, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Apple uses high quality RAM and they will ask you if you replaced/upgraded/installed more ram when you call them to diagnose a wonky machine. Often, it's the cheap ram that's the culprit.

 

I hear people complaining, but I have never bought a computer that I upgraded. I buy the most I can afford at the time, paying attention to RAM and HD size, in that order. If I keep the thing for 5 years, the extra cost is trivial over time and I have a machine that's faster, more useful, and has higher resale.

 

If you're opening your machine to upgrade hard drives and ram, you aren't being careful enough when you purchase. The other benefit is Apple will cover any BTO option under warranty.

post #64 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran View Post


The heck is THIS thing?

 

I'm not sure, but it probably never leaves its mom's basement.

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post #65 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I cant fathom why you think a lack of distinction between RAM in the RMBP and iMac is irrelevant for would be tinkers.
I'm wondering why I need to point out this is a tech site detailing the findings of a company who markets by showing DIYers how to disassemble their electronics thus making the distinction exceedingly relevant.

I can't understand why you cant fathom that .001% of all iMac buyers is quite irrelevant.

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post #66 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post

What? The Porsche doesn't have an accessible drivetrain? What a disposable piece of crap!

I could live with that, but when the dealership told me the windscreen wasn't held in place by magnets....

Screw you Porsche! If I can't pop out the windscreen with a coin then no deal!
post #67 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I can't understand why you cant fathom that .001% of all iMac buyers is quite irrelevant.

You should consider who iFixit's target audience is before posting. Based on your comment they shouldn't offer any tear downs, not parts for sale in assisting upgrades and repairs, and sites like AI shouldn't bother posting it, nor should you bother commenting on it because you think it's irrelevant whether the RAM is or is not soldered to the motherboard.

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post #68 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I'm not sure, but it probably never leaves its mom's basement.

I think it's quite slick looking. It's almost like the evolution of the PC in that it is moving from an exoskeleton to a spine where the motherboard makes up the central nervous system. It's not something I would buy today because I have no interest in running Windows as my primary machine but I think the design is very clever and very slick. If Apple made an xMac that followed that same look I think I we'd be in awe of it.

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post #69 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You should consider who iFixit's target audience is before posting. Based on your comment they shouldn't offer any tear downs, not parts for sale in assisting upgrades and repairs, and sites like AI shouldn't bother posting it, nor should you bother commenting on it because you think it's irrelevant whether the RAM is or is not soldered to the motherboard.

You should consider that iFixit gave the 21.5 iMac a 3 out of 10 for repairability.

 

[... and I'd like to know how the f*ck the fact that it's iFixit makes my point any less relevant]


Edited by island hermit - 12/1/12 at 10:59pm
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post #70 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

You should consider that iFixit gave the 21.5 iMac a 3 out of 10 for repairability.

[... and I'd like to know how the f*ck the fact that iFixit makes my point any less relevant]

Hermit, tell me, what would you realistically be changing on your Mac? You won't upgrade the screen or wifi chip, that's hardly if ever done by anyone. The RAM and HD say you? Well, as far as the RAM goes, so far as I know, Ivy Bridge maxes out at 32gbs and Apple does allow you to upgrade to 32gb on the 27, and presumably will allow it once there are 16gb modules on the 21, so if you can foresee needing that in the future, just max it out when you buy and be done with it, no tinkering needed. Oh, but Apple's prices are too high? Well then you have a problem with their pricing structure not the design of the machine.

So really, the complaints are about the HDs? With Thunderbolt's speed, external drives can put that one to rest. Just tape it to the back of the machine, it'll probably still be less bulky than the older generations, that the HD replacement looks all that difficult in the first place.
Edited by johndoe98 - 12/1/12 at 11:08pm
post #71 of 180
This is dumb. They are giving an accurate assessment of repairability. Not commenting if you should buy the device or not. Personally as a gamer stuff like that matters, but I can understand why it doesn't for most people. This sorta auto reaction to a perceived negative sleight on these forums gives me a good chuckle.
post #72 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I think it's quite slick looking. It's almost like the evolution of the PC in that it is moving from an exoskeleton to a spine where the motherboard makes up the central nervous system. It's not something I would buy today because I have no interest in running Windows as my primary machine but I think the design is very clever and very slick. If Apple made an xMac that followed that same look I think I we'd be in awe of it.

There is something interesting about it. It looks like it could be out of Tron, which could be good or bad. It might be overly complicated, to the point of possibly risking reliability.

I wonder how many they sell. As cases go, it's not that cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

You should consider that iFixit gave the 21.5 iMac a 3 out of 10 for repairability.

I think it's pretty clear the rating is needlessly harsh. OWC showed the double sided tape is easily defeated without needing a heat gun or a special tool, and I'm certain the material is easily replaceable should it be damaged in the process. The biggest down side in my mind is the possibility of losing warranty for doing so. Legally in the US, warranty can't be denied unless your repair is what resulted in failure, but in practice, it's not a fight worth taking up.
post #73 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

You should consider that iFixit gave the 21.5 iMac a 3 out of 10 for repairability.

[... and I'd like to know how the f*ck the fact that iFixit makes my point any less relevant]

The very fact that you are on this site arguing about iFixit is proof that it is highly relevant if the RAM (or any other component) is soldered to the motherboard or can use 3rd-party components if the customer wishes to take his machine apart. The display is harder to remove since it uses adhesive instead of magnets but that doesn't mean that the RAM is not capable of being accessed and removed by those who would seek out iFixit.

Let's also note they gave it a 3 out of 10. Now let's compare that to the RMBP where they wrote, "MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair) [...] As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade." Now which one of these machines has RAM that can be upgraded with 3rd-party RAM? Hint: there is one correct answer.

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post #74 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw View Post

[...] If you're opening your machine to upgrade hard drives and ram, you aren't being careful enough when you purchase.

 

Or your hard drive failed two months after the AppleCare expired.

 

For me the benefit is not so much the money saved through DIY as the TIME. The lazy and "oh-so-WEALTHY" contributors to this thread don't factor in the cost of taking that machine to a service facility and waiting two or three days to get it back.

 

I love iFixit and really appreciate their work. Their guides have saved me from running into hidden whoopsies when performing routine repairs.

 

As for iFixit selling parts, thank dog they do. When I couldn't find an optical drive for a particular MacBook Pro anywhere at any price, iFixit came through with stock.


Edited by v5v - 12/1/12 at 11:21pm
post #75 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I think it's pretty clear the rating is needlessly harsh. OWC showed the double sided tape is easily defeated without needing a heat gun or a special tool, and I'm certain the material is easily replaceable should it be damaged in the process. The biggest down side in my mind is the possibility of losing warranty for doing so. Legally in the US, warranty can't be denied unless your repair is what resulted in failure, but in practice, it's not a fight worth taking up.

Oh great, now iFixit is irrelevant...  1wink.gif

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post #76 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


The very fact that you are on this site arguing about iFixit is proof that it is highly relevant if the RAM (or any other component) is soldered to the motherboard or can use 3rd-party components if the customer wishes to take his machine apart. The display is harder to remove since it uses adhesive instead of magnets but that doesn't mean that the RAM is not capable of being accessed and removed by those who would seek out iFixit.
Let's also note they gave it a 3 out of 10. Now let's compare that to the RMBP where they wrote, "MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair) [...] As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade." Now which one of these machines has RAM that can be upgraded with 3rd-party RAM? Hint: there is one correct answer.

Yes... all .001% of those customers.

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post #77 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post


Hermit, tell me, what would you realistically be changing on your Mac? You won't upgrade the screen or wifi chip, that's hardly if ever done by anyone. The RAM and HD say you? Well, as far as the RAM goes, so far as I know, Ivy Bridge maxes out at 32gbs and Apple does allow you to upgrade to 32gb on the 27, and presumably will allow it once there are 16gb modules on the 21, so if you can foresee needing that in the future, just max it out when you buy and be done with it, no tinkering needed. Oh, but Apple's prices are too high? Well then you have a problem with their pricing structure not the design of the machine.
So really, the complaints are about the HDs? With Thunderbolt's speed, external drives can put that one to rest. Just tape it to the back of the machine, it'll probably still be less bulky than the older generations, that the HD replacement looks all that difficult in the first place.

Hell, I used to change almost everything... but I sure as hell won't be pulling off my display, my motherboard and voiding my warranty just to upgrade the ram. Like you say, I can just order it that way.

 

This is aint your Grandpa's Apple...

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post #78 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post

Well, as far as the RAM goes, so far as I know, Ivy Bridge maxes out at 32gbs...

That does appear to be the case. I was thinking the microarchitecture could handle 64GB (or even 128GB) if the RAM modules could support it.

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post #79 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

Have you ever gone to an automobile dealer's parts store? I can remember having to buy a rear tail light assembly. Cost from dealer was $295.00. Same assembly from a NAPA store or from an internet parts store was just about half of that.




The fact is that Apple uses and sells the same memory modules that you and I can buy from Crucial and OWC. Some folks may feel more comfortable about buying extra memory from Apple and have them install it but don't kid yourself into thinking Apple memory is anything special. Of all the bad memory I have had over the years nearly all of it was Apple RAM. (not made by them but installed with computer). They could be more generous with RAM upgrade prices and it wouldn't hurt their profits at all. Few if any bother upgrading by BTO due to their extremely high prices. More RAM would also tend to make happier customers since they would get a better experience. 

Napa isn't OEM parts now is it? You say OEM "quality" but that's not OEM, so it's not a fair comparison. And as far as Crucial and OWC, again not OEM. We can debate their quality all we want, but Apple pays OEM prices, so you can bet they will charge you OEM prices. So perhaps your complaint is you'd like Apple to use another RAM manufacturer to reduce costs. Well fine, that's your prerogative, but again that isn't a design issue.
post #80 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


 

The key questions being: how often will it need to be serviced? How easy will it be for a customer to get it replaced?  You can be 99% sure Apple has these bases covered. 


Hard drives would be my primary concern. The imac is still using standard drives, which are known for their lack of reliability. This isn't unique to Apple or any one company. They're simply sourced parts. There's always an emphasis on regular backups as these things can die without warning. I'd hate to see that brick a computer. Memory is rarely upgraded later. The one thing diy offers there is cheaper ram upgrades. I always suggest people test memory as soon as it arrives for bad sticks. DOA (including runs with occasional errors) is much more common than memory failure.

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