iFixit dings new 21.5-inch iMac for low repairability as shipping times increase - Page 3

Napa isn't OEM parts now is it? You say OEM "quality" but that's not OEM, so it's not a fair comparison. And as far as Crucial and OWC, again not OEM. We can debate their quality all we want, but Apple pays OEM prices, so you can bet they will charge you OEM prices. So perhaps your complaint is you'd like Apple to use another RAM manufacturer to reduce costs. Well fine, that's your prerogative, but again that isn't a design issue.

Hard drives would be my primary concern. The imac is still using standard drives, which are known for their lack of reliability. This isn't unique to Apple or any one company. They're simply sourced parts. There's always an emphasis on regular backups as these things can die without warning. I'd hate to see that brick a computer. Memory is rarely upgraded later. The one thing diy offers there is cheaper ram upgrades. I always suggest people test memory as soon as it arrives for bad sticks. DOA (including runs with occasional errors) is much more common than memory failure.

You forget to mention that the iMac doesn't blend worth a hoot...!!!

 

I have an EE degree and plenty of lab equipment, but I have zero interest in opening an iMac to troubleshoot. The day of the "build-your-own" computer is coming to an end, especially portable computers. The hardware computer-geek is becoming an endangered species. Even Woz has hung up his soldering iron. 

 

Now I know there are people that would dispute me on this, but I've owned Macs starting with the 128K Mac to a 27" iMac and have not had a single repair issue in all these years... including my laptops from a Duo to a MBP. Every HD has rum flawlessly until the day I unplug the Mac and set it aside for my newer Mac. I've only upgraded the RAM three times in my Macs in the last 28 years. Macs just work. All this crap about repairability must be a Windows PC thing, but it's not an Apple thing.

 

What you said. That's why so many of us buy our RAM and drives from third parties and install them ourselves upon delivery rather than paying Apple's double-the-going-rate prices for those components. Ipso facto, that's why so many of us are choked about Apple making it so dogdamn difficult to get inside their machines. Either let us do it ourselves or bring the prices of BTO within the realm of reason.

 

Don't even get me started about soldered RAM or device-specific storage so we have no choice AT ALL while charging DOUBLE the going rate!

Being able to upgrade is one thing, being able to fix is another.
Hard disk are known to fail a lot more than memory or other computer components.
So it's a real problem that they cannot be replaced easily.

J.

 I can only tell from my experience: probably never. I have had 24" iMac as a TV and media center in my living room for 5 years. And it has never needed service. Amazing machine.

The iMac is not an upgradable computer, yes in the past we could easily upgrade RAM, now it seems Apple wants us to order it with the amount we need online, weather or not you need an upgrade keep in mind that the direction Apple is heading is for a consumer oriented devices, meaning: you just turn them on and enjoy!

I do hope that they won't kill the Mac Pro so that professionals can still use Macs for their work, in the meantime try and order online with all the specs you really need: RAM, CPU, HDD...

for me the real hassle is for people that don't have an Apple Store in their reach because of repair issues, other than that I don't see any other issue here.. well only the $2.000 that I need to buy a new one.

I agree. The hard disk is my only real concern here. I have a 17" MBP whose hard disk broke within warranty. I found that as I live in a country where there are no Apple stores (only resellers) that I would have to send it away and the repair could take up to 2 weeks. So, I just chose to pop in a new drive myself - no real problem, and hard drives don't cost that much.

 

But if the same were to happen with one of these, there is no way I would want to start messing about trying to get that screen off!

 

In general experience I have found that after about 3 or 4 years of daily use, quite a high percentage of hard drives begin to fail. I have had to change them about 6 times on various machine here. So I'm guessing that there will be lots of out of warranty repairs being needed for broken hard drives and they are not going to be easy to perform!

You are right. The term 'professionals' used in the graphics world really covers two distinctly different groups I've found after being in this business since its inception. Those that are into the tech as much as the graphics and they do upgrade everything an anything they can. Then there is the other group, those that simply use the equipment to churn out their client's needs with little or no more interest in the equipment than they would a box of pencils. The latter group are often still using old Macs and really old versions of Adobe's or other graphics programs. In fact they dread the thought of even having to learn a new version of their own software in many cases. I know a graphics guy that uses a G4 and Quark Express and never went near the 'whole web thing'. Print is all he is interested in.

Regarding the MacFixit folks comments. It's kind of like the two man, corner garage complaining they can't do anything with a new BMW's engine because they have none of the computer equipment or specialized tools, let alone the knowledge. Times move on. Heck as a student I had to replace my own cylinder head gasket and all the break pipes to keep my junker running, now I can barely recognize what's under the hood of a vehicle. As others have said this is the price of progress. The folks at MacFixit should be planning alternative careers or plan to specialize on old equipment repairs, perhaps setting up in a corner garage?
Edited by digitalclips - 12/2/12 at 5:24am

On RAM and Drives I do agree things should be easier even if the designs make all else return to Apple. I'd like to see the 'disk' part of any Mac of the future, which will be SSD I'm sure, be what I'd term 'pop in pop out' for upgrade, requiring only the release of a safety catch. In fact there should be a second SSD on a MBPro and it should be 'hot swappable' IMHO. Literally the 1 TB floppy of the future. At the very least the higher end Macs should support this kind of flexibility even if consumer models don't.

I wouldn't dispute that a bit. No one asks about upgrading the RAM in their DVD player or the processor in their TV. It's an appliance - and computers have become an appliance in recent years.

First, find a PC vendor who doesn't charge a lot for RAM upgrades. EVERYONE does it. When you buy an option for your car, do you think the manufacturer is offering upgrades at cost? Obviously not.

Second, the "I can buy cheapo RAM and install it in my Mac" arguments are not really relevant. Apple doesn't use cheapo RAM and there are plenty of cases where cheapo RAM has caused problems. Apple's motherboards require good quality RAM - which is not the $29 for 8 GB garbage that people are talking about. Buying Apple-quality RAM might save you 40% at best.

And, again, it's not an important issue for the majority of computer owners. Few people ever upgrade their computers - and I expect that the number will continue to decline. At one time, even the newest, fastest computers might still limit your work, but today, even the cheapest computer you can buy is more than fast enough for a huge percentage of people. There's just not much need to add more RAM later. Get what you need when you buy it. If your circumstances change, a dealer won't charge you that much to install it.

As I've explained before, there are tradeoffs. Making things less accessible allows Apple to make a more rigid, reliable, lighter, less resource intensive computer. At one time, it was quite common for people with new computers to have problems from components that came loose during shipping. With today's Macs, that doesn't seem to happen much. In fact, with the MBA, I don't think I've ever heard of that type of problem. It also improves the long term reliability. So, essentially, Apple is giving EVERYONE a better, more reliable, lighter computer and in return, the very small number of people who might need to upgrade their RAM (or who want to save a few dollars by not buying enough RAM at first) will pay a little bit to have RAM installed or learn to do it themselves. I think that's a very fair trade.

iFixit is the Grover Norquist of Apple fixibility. And their hubris will end their relevance as well.

How dare iFixit write an article on the upgradability of an Apple product.

 

OK, you win. You can replace it, but you cannot access it.

Seems obvious to me that Apple does their research and it shows the majority of their customers aren't concerned about user upgradable/repairable devices. They don't build things to please iFixit or the tiny percentage of geeks who have to be able to get inside their machines and tinker.

I said this before before and I'll say it again if you don't like it buy it. No one at Apple is putting a gun to your head forcing you to buy their products. The best way to send Apple a message is to just stop buying their stuff. I bet that won't happen though. I bet they'll sell out of these iMacs and the people who get them home and start using them will love them (I've already seen one such review on MacRumors, especially giving thumbs up to the display and the reduction in glare). The people that will bitch are those who probably had no intention of buying an iMac in the first place (like the majority of commenters on c|net, Engadget, the Verge, etc.).

They can write whatever they want but why we have to care about it?

Isn't the Mac Pro assembled in the USA too? Perhaps it's in the same assembly plant since I would assume they could be slowing down production of the Mac Pro for the upgrade.

I'm not understanding your query. We don't have to care about iFixit... or Apple or MS or our neighbors or world peace... but for iFixit's audience or anyone that would consider upgrading, modding, or repairing their detailed teardowns can be indispensable.

For instance, without their teardown of this 21.5" iMac I would have made the assumption that the 5400 RPM HDD was a 2.5" drive and the SSD would be a card that plugs into a mini-PCIe slot on the logic board. I would have been correct on those points, but this now confirms it.

However, I would have been incorrect in assuming that the you could buy the 21.5" iMac without the Fusion drive and then upgrade it later by buying and inserting any number of SSD cards.

If Apple is going to knocked for being "cheap" with this machine I think the exclusion of the mini-PCIe slot for the SSD card is where any vitriol should be focused.


PS: The likelihood of a 2TB 2.5" HDDs and 16GB RAM modules (max 32GB) within the feasible life span of this machine, plus the socketed CPU that can be replaced I personally think a guitar pick and screwdriver would be worth increasing the life span and performance of this machine down the road.
Edited by SolipsismX - 12/2/12 at 7:24am

I'm surprised by some of the posters here suggesting that ordinary, non-technical users don't install RAM. My last purchase was a Mac Mini and I saved a considerable amount of money on the RAM even allowing for the fact that I took out the Apple minimum supplied RAM and threw it away!

It's actually quite easy for us 'ordinary' users - the Mac Mini has an excellently written and illustrated manual. These manuals have been a great Apple tradition for years! And buying from the Crucial website is easy because it's got a guide to exactly which Mac requires which type of RAM.

There are millions of users and it's impossible to generalise on their requirements, so in my opinion this Imac would be a better product if there was user access to the RAM and hard drive for those who need access.
 

^^
When I see headlines about Apple being "dinged" by iFixit my first thought is so what? Since when is Apple required to design products to meet iFixit' satisfaction? Plus it's not like iFixit is totally impartial. The have their own biases and interests, and the age of computer electronics as appliances isn't good for their business.

Ram in the tech specs is not listed as user accessible. Warranty t&c covers the rest

But hey, you go buy a 21.5, shove in your own ram and then take it to Apple for a repair and see what happens.

The issue is the perception they are giving. Which is that it can't be repaired at all. And then blogs source this and really hype that up

It can be fixed. By those trained and provided the parts and tools by Apple.

Just not by the average Tom, Dick and Harry that might buy his tools and parts from iFixIt.

 

No one is expecting Apple to offer upgrades "at cost." We're asking for prices that are *reasonable* compared to the *retail* prices of RAM on the open market. Do you think Apple pays the same price you or I do for RAM? Obviously not.

 

 

 

 

You don't get to decide what that means.

 

Simultaneously, you are already deciding what that means, as Apple is a business. If these prices weren't already reasonable, people wouldn't pay them. They're fine.

I have been using OptiBay since it came out. That's the removable of my ODD, the installation of the OptiBay chassis and the installation of an additional HDD in its place. I've taken my MBP into the Apple Store on several occasions over the years and I can tell you they do care... but in the sense they are intrigued by my setup, but when it comes to assisting me with whatever issue I have it's been a moot point. If I had damaged something then that would be a different issue but it hasn't been an issue in terms of voiding my warranty simply by making a simple modification.


Half the price for RAM that neither these web companies are installing and typically have a 30 day warranty and after that require you go through the RAM vendor. What you're dissing is the cost of convenience. If you don't like Apple's prices you have the option to upgrade your own RAM or not buy products from Apple.

You have the option so it's up to you to decide how you want to proceed. The RAM is not soldered in which would not be unprecedented in a Mac at this point so why not be happy to have the option instead of complaining that a PC vendor is charging for the convenience of a BTO product and which helps lower the entry level price of their product.

There is absolutely nothing unusual here. Save for the Windows domain I have running in VMWare Fusion (an admittedly unusual setup) my 8GB RAM in my MBP is more than acceptable. I have to think that most 21.5" iMac buyers are likely going to be well served by 8GB RAM. If it was 4GB standard with a cost of $200 to get 8GB then I could see why that is a forced BTO upgrade because 4GB would be pushing it for the average user.

How many hard drives have failed you? I had this honour two times in 20 years. I even have 512 MB IBM drives still running with no bad sectors.

Exactly. Why does iFixit even review Apple's stuff, other than dinging Apple provides more traffic to their site.

Do you have some stats for this?

It does afford numerous benefits to Apple.

 

No, but he can always make them up.

It doesn't have to say that the RAM is user accessible to be covered. Actually, it's the other way around. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act in the US, and its equivalents in other countries, stipulates that Tie-In-Sales Provisions are generally not allowed. The default is therefore to assume you are allowed to change the parts in your machine without voiding the warranty, unless the warranty explicitly prohibits you from doing so, and Apple's warranty can only do that, explicitly prohibit such replacements, if they first apply to the FTC to get a waiver to do so. So far as I can see, there is no evidence that they have done so.

Are we forgetting that since day #1 Apple has claimed it isn't concerned with the price when designing its computers? Rather they want to build the best machines possible for their intended purpose, yet here we are with people complaining that Apple's upgrade prices for HDs and RAM is too expensive. Perhaps Apple isn't the brand for you in that case. But do note, since Apple can and will upgrade your HD and RAM in the future, your issue with the new iMacs isn't one about the design of these new super thin machines, but with the costs of the machine over the course of its lifetime. Just be honest then and say you can't afford them.

People know the deal with Apple and have known it since forever. So why they still complain year after year is beyond me. If upgrading and repairing a machine on your own is that important to someone then Apple computers are obviously not the product for them. So rather than bitch and complain just don't buy their stuff. It's not like Apple is putting a gun to someone's head forcing them to buy their stuff.

Also if all this stuff was so important to most people Apple would be catering to their needs, no? At the end of the day they're most interested in making the sale. Clearly their design decisions are not impacting their sales otherwise they would be doing something else,

maybe you should ask appleinsider that question and not ifixit.

Another reason why repair ability is great is that we don't have money to buy a new macbook for school, so I invested in an intel SSD on sale and easily replaced it in an 08 Macbook. Thing runs like a dream now. Easily will last another year until graduation.

And then the Ram died in the machine. Loud beeping and error message on bootup. New set of cheap ram, popped it in. Done. $200 for SSD and Ram vs $1100 for Macbook that's really not needed after graduation. Hmmm.

That's the problem for many of us. All these changes seem to benefit Apple and not the consumer. Any desktop computer should have easy access to exchanging a hard drive which tend to fail after a certain amount of time, usually the day after the warranty expires. They should also allow easy access to upgrade the RAM. It seems Apple is making it more difficult to steer you towards buying a new iMac in a few years rather than trying to keep the one you have in working condition. 

 

And to others saying Apple RAM is such high quality, you better check your facts. They use Hynix and other medium quality brands typically. They do not use some magical or ultra-premium brand memory or hard drives. There is no justification for them to charge 2 to 3 times retail price when they already get a huge discount off retail since they buy in bulk quantity. 

 

Macs have traditionally been popular with creative types (authors, graphics artists, musicians), going all the way back to the original Macintosh. Anyone non-technical would find the Mac really approachable. I don't see iMac's lack of 'caveman repairability' to be an issue, now that Apple has genius bars in most major cities.

I'm not sure that I would trust my local Apple store to reseal this thing properly if they had to open it for repairs. It's like when the windscreen on your car smashes - the replacement never seems to be as good.