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Republican obstructionism has now officially jumped the shark

post #1 of 200
Thread Starter 

In the "wait, this really isn't an Onion article?" file...Republican Turtle..err...Senator Mitch McConnell filibusters his own bill.

 

 

 

Quote:
On Thursday morning McConnell had made a motion for the vote on legislation that would let the president extend the country's borrowing limit on his own. Congress would then have the option to disapprove such hikes, in a fashion similar to one that McConnell first suggested during last year's standoff over the debt ceiling.

 

Ok.  Fair enough so far.  I see the Republican strategy here--they get to fully blame Obama for raising the debt ceiling and then bitch about not having enough to have blocked it.  This would be excellent soundbite fodder for the low-information voter.  I see what's going on.

 

 

 

Quote:

Reid objected at first, but told McConnell he thought it might be a good idea. After Senate staff reviewed the proposal, Reid came back to the floor and proposed a straight up-or-down vote on the idea.

McConnell was forced to say no.

 

McConnell plays game of political chicken.  Reid doesn't blink.  McConnell flinches.  

 

 

 

Quote:
"What we have here is a case of the Republicans here in the Senate once again not taking yes for an answer," Reid said. "This morning the Republican leader asked consent to have a vote on his proposal. Just now I told everyone we're willing to have that vote, an up-or-down vote, and now the Republican leader objects to his own idea, so I guess we have a filibuser of his own bill."

 

You can't make this shit up.

 

 

 

Quote:
"This may be a moment in Senate history when a senator made a proposal and, when given an opportunity for a vote on that proposal, filibustered his own proposal," said Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.). "I think we have reached a new spot in the history of the Senate we've never seen before."

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

lol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.giflol.gif

 

That was my reaction when Reid denied McConnell's motion to vote on the Obama fiscal cliff proposal.  Reid said the vote was just a political trick, and that the plan didn't even exist.  

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post #3 of 200

Ah! Here they go! A good read and one I'm sure most conservatives are in denial about. The point is if they're really concerned about their agenda they should understand this will kill any support.

 

 

Quote:

First Thoughts: GOP goes off the image cliff

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/13/15883979-first-thoughts-gop-goes-off-the-image-cliff?lite

 

Yes it's an opinion piece but it's very correct! Also the polls now are starting to back this up. I wouldn't want to be a Republican congressman right now. Yes both sides will take some blame however the mojority of Americans will be looking at the Republicans as the ones who are not compromising and this is again reflected in the polls.

 

Oh well.


Edited by jimmac - 12/13/12 at 1:46pm
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post #4 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Ah! Here they go! A good read and one I'm sure most conservatives are in denial about. The point is if they're really concerned about their agenda they should understand this will kill any support.

 

 

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/13/15883979-first-thoughts-gop-goes-off-the-image-cliff?lite

 

Yes it's an opinion piece but it's very correct! Also the polls now are starting to back this up. I wouldn't want to be a Republican congressman right now. Yes both sides will take some blame however the mojority of Americans will be looking at the Republicans as the ones who are not compromising and this is again reflected in the polls.

 

Oh well.

 

I realize you're happy about this, but I can't disagree that's the perception of Republicans.  However, I would caution you against thinking that it's the actual policies people object to. Polling shows that it's not...it's more a stigma around Republicans because they are Republicans.  The polling shows people prefer spending cuts over tax increases to fix the "fiscal cliff," for example.  

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post #5 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes it's an opinion piece but it's very correct!

 

Translation: It's an opinion piece you agree with.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Also the polls now are starting to back this up. I wouldn't want to be a Republican congressman right now. Yes both sides will take some blame however the mojority of Americans will be looking at the Republicans as the ones who are not compromising and this is again reflected in the polls.

 

 

 

Quote:
If there is no compromise on the fiscal cliff and the automatic tax increases and spending cuts go into effect at the beginning of next year, 24% say they will blame congressional Republicans more, while 19% will point the finger at Obama and congressional Democrats. But a majority of respondents (56%) say they’ll blame both sides equally.

 

This whole thing is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you imply.

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post #6 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes it's an opinion piece but it's very correct!

 

Translation: It's an opinion piece you agree with.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Also the polls now are starting to back this up. I wouldn't want to be a Republican congressman right now. Yes both sides will take some blame however the mojority of Americans will be looking at the Republicans as the ones who are not compromising and this is again reflected in the polls.

 

 

 

Quote:
If there is no compromise on the fiscal cliff and the automatic tax increases and spending cuts go into effect at the beginning of next year, 24% say they will blame congressional Republicans more, while 19% will point the finger at Obama and congressional Democrats. But a majority of respondents (56%) say they’ll blame both sides equally.

 

This whole thing is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you imply.

 

Quote:

Translation: It's an opinion piece you agree with.

If it was you offering support for your argument you'd put it the same way so that's just dumb.

 

 

 

Quote:
This whole thing is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you imply.

 

No it's more cut and dried now.1wink.gif

 

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/12/15870087-nbcwsj-poll-public-wants-compromise-to-avoid-fiscal-cliff?lite

 

 

Quote:

NBC/WSJ poll: Public wants compromise to avoid fiscal cliff

 

 

 

Quote:

The GOP’s favorable/unfavorable rating in the poll now stands at 30 percent/45 percent (minus-15 points), which is down from 36 percent/43 percent (minus-7) right before the election.

That’s compared with the Democratic Party’s 44 percent/35 percent rating (plus-9 points).

What’s more, asked to give a word or short phrase to describe the Republican Party, 65 percent offered a negative comment, including more than half of Republicans.

Some of the responses: “Bad,” “weak,” “negative,” “uncompromising,” “need to work together,” “broken,” “disorganized” and “lost.”

By contrast, 37 percent gave negative descriptions of the Democratic Party, while 35 percent were positive.

“Republicans have gone off the image cliff,” says Hart, the Democratic pollster.

 

 

 

1wink.gif

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post #7 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

If it was you offering support for your argument you'd put it the same way so that's just dumb.

 

Huh? WTF are you talking about?

 

 

 

How does your link make it so? Just because you say so? The fact is that polls are actually keeping the issue less cut and dried for both sides.

 

And that's not even counting the fact that what the public wants may or may not be good policy.

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post #8 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

If it was you offering support for your argument you'd put it the same way so that's just dumb.

 

Huh? WTF are you talking about?

 

 

 

How does your link make it so? Just because you say so? The fact is that polls are actually keeping the issue less cut and dried for both sides.

 

And that's not even counting the fact that what the public wants may or may not be good policy.

 

Quote:

How does your link make it so? Just because you say so? The fact is that polls are actually keeping the issue less cut and

dried for both sides.

 

I repeat :

 

 

Quote:

What’s more, asked to give a word or short phrase to describe the Republican Party, 65 percent offered a negative comment, including more than half of Republicans.

Some of the responses: “Bad,” “weak,” “negative,” “uncompromising,” “need to work together,” “broken,” “disorganized” and “lost.”

By contrast, 37 percent gave negative descriptions of the Democratic Party, while 35 percent were positive.

 

 

Quote:

And that's not even counting the fact that what the public wants may or may not be good policy.

 

That is just an excuse for a small faction of society to control the whole! This is a country where the majority rules by vote. It's been that way since the founding fathers who set things up that way ( you know the guys you keep going back to and I'm sure they wouldn't want a small faction to control the whole ). What you're suggesting is that a small faction can dictate policy to the whole. It's not what the American public wants MJ if you don't like things that way move.

 

 

 

Oh well.


Edited by jimmac - 12/17/12 at 1:32pm
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post #9 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

 

Interesting. Is that some sort of argument?

 

If anyone is burying their heads in the sand, it is Obama, the Democrats (and their supporters) and much of the American public regarding spending and the long-term fiscal outlook. I don't think most people get how serious the long-term outlook is and how it is so totally not going to be solved by taxing the rich.

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post #10 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Interesting. Is that some sort of argument?

 

If anyone is burying their heads in the sand, it is Obama, the Democrats (and their supporters) and much of the American public regarding spending and the long-term fiscal outlook. I don't think most people get how serious the long-term outlook is and how it is so totally not going to be solved by taxing the rich.

 

What I like is how you keep talking about specific issue polling on taxes and spending, while jimmac keeps repeating the same polling data on perception/support for the GOP.  

 

MJ:  Polls show people prefer spending cuts to tax increases.

 

jimmac:  The GOP’s favorable/unfavorable rating in the poll now stands at 30 percent/45 percent (minus-15 points), which is down from 36 percent/43 percent (minus-7) right before the election.

That’s compared with the Democratic Party’s 44 percent/35 percent rating (plus-9 points).

What’s more, asked to give a word or short phrase to describe the Republican Party, 65 percent offered a negative comment, including more than half of Republicans.

Some of the responses: “Bad,” “weak,” “negative,” “uncompromising,” “need to work together,” “broken,” “disorganized” and “lost.”

By contrast, 37 percent gave negative descriptions of the Democratic Party, while 35 percent were positive.

“Republicans have gone off the image cliff,” says Hart, the Democratic pollster.

 

MJ:  Taxing the rich won't begin to address our serious fiscal issue. 

 

jimmac:  The GOP’s favorable/unfavorable rating in the poll now stands at 30 percent/45 percent (minus-15 points), which is down from 36 percent/43 percent (minus-7) right before the election.

That’s compared with the Democratic Party’s 44 percent/35 percent rating (plus-9 points).

What’s more, asked to give a word or short phrase to describe the Republican Party, 65 percent offered a negative comment, including more than half of Republicans.

Some of the responses: “Bad,” “weak,” “negative,” “uncompromising,” “need to work together,” “broken,” “disorganized” and “lost.”

By contrast, 37 percent gave negative descriptions of the Democratic Party, while 35 percent were positive.

“Republicans have gone off the image cliff,” says Hart, the Democratic pollster.

 

 

 

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post #11 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Interesting. Is that some sort of argument?

 

If anyone is burying their heads in the sand, it is Obama, the Democrats (and their supporters) and much of the American public regarding spending and the long-term fiscal outlook. I don't think most people get how serious the long-term outlook is and how it is so totally not going to be solved by taxing the rich.

 

What I like is how you keep talking about specific issue polling on taxes and spending, while jimmac keeps repeating the same polling data on perception/support for the GOP.  

 

MJ:  Polls show people prefer spending cuts to tax increases.

 

jimmac:  The GOP’s favorable/unfavorable rating in the poll now stands at 30 percent/45 percent (minus-15 points), which is down from 36 percent/43 percent (minus-7) right before the election.

That’s compared with the Democratic Party’s 44 percent/35 percent rating (plus-9 points).

What’s more, asked to give a word or short phrase to describe the Republican Party, 65 percent offered a negative comment, including more than half of Republicans.

Some of the responses: “Bad,” “weak,” “negative,” “uncompromising,” “need to work together,” “broken,” “disorganized” and “lost.”

By contrast, 37 percent gave negative descriptions of the Democratic Party, while 35 percent were positive.

“Republicans have gone off the image cliff,” says Hart, the Democratic pollster.

 

MJ:  Taxing the rich won't begin to address our serious fiscal issue. 

 

jimmac:  The GOP’s favorable/unfavorable rating in the poll now stands at 30 percent/45 percent (minus-15 points), which is down from 36 percent/43 percent (minus-7) right before the election.

That’s compared with the Democratic Party’s 44 percent/35 percent rating (plus-9 points).

What’s more, asked to give a word or short phrase to describe the Republican Party, 65 percent offered a negative comment, including more than half of Republicans.

Some of the responses: “Bad,” “weak,” “negative,” “uncompromising,” “need to work together,” “broken,” “disorganized” and “lost.”

By contrast, 37 percent gave negative descriptions of the Democratic Party, while 35 percent were positive.

“Republicans have gone off the image cliff,” says Hart, the Democratic pollster.

 

 

 

lol.gif

 

What I like about you is you're a constant source of the untruth. That was a new poll SDW.1wink.gif

 

You just don't get that the GOP is slowly sinking into the west ( blub, blub ) and they're doing it to themselves.

 

In the end they'll capitulate but only after they've done considerable damage to their character.

 

The GOP needs to change and grow up. The sooner they man up to this ( and stop listening to guys like Grover ) the better for them.

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post #12 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

 

Interesting. Is that some sort of argument?

 

If anyone is burying their heads in the sand, it is Obama, the Democrats (and their supporters) and much of the American public regarding spending and the long-term fiscal outlook. I don't think most people get how serious the long-term outlook is and how it is so totally not going to be solved by taxing the rich.

 

Quote:

Interesting. Is that some sort of argument?

Perhaps if you'd pull your head out of the sand you'd get your answers.1wink.gif

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post #13 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Perhaps if you'd pull your head out of the sand you'd get your answers.1wink.gif

 

How cute.

 

1rolleyes.gif

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post #14 of 200

jimmac: 

 

 

Quote:
What I like about you is you're a constant source of the untruth. That was a new poll SDW.1wink.gif

 

So?  It has nothing to do with specific issue polling.  

 

 

 

Quote:

You just don't get that the GOP is slowly sinking into the west ( blub, blub ) and they're doing it to themselves.

 

 

 

Could be.  Again not the point.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
In the end they'll capitulate but only after they've done considerable damage to their character.

 

Yes, you could be right about that.  Annnnd yet again, that's not the point.  

 

 

 

Quote:

The GOP needs to change and grow up. The sooner they man up to this ( and stop listening to guys like Grover ) the better for them.

 

 

 

First, yeah...you guessed it...not the point.  Secondly, what does "need to grow up" mean?  "Man up?"  You seem to be suggesting that the GOP just needs to cave on everything it stands for and gove Obama his way.  Somehow (you claim) this will help them politically.  1confused.gif

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post #15 of 200
Thread Starter 

Republican politicians don't want to cave because they know they are full of shit and that what Obama proposes will improve the economy, but at the cost of reducing income inequality (which the Republican donors do not approve of).  That's bad for their 2014 election hopes and post-retirement lobbying careers.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #16 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

jimmac: 

 

 

Quote:
What I like about you is you're a constant source of the untruth. That was a new poll SDW.1wink.gif

 

So?  It has nothing to do with specific issue polling.  

 

 

 

Quote:

You just don't get that the GOP is slowly sinking into the west ( blub, blub ) and they're doing it to themselves.

 

 

 

Could be.  Again not the point.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
In the end they'll capitulate but only after they've done considerable damage to their character.

 

Yes, you could be right about that.  Annnnd yet again, that's not the point.  

 

 

 

Quote:

The GOP needs to change and grow up. The sooner they man up to this ( and stop listening to guys like Grover ) the better for them.

 

 

 

First, yeah...you guessed it...not the point.  Secondly, what does "need to grow up" mean?  "Man up?"  You seem to be suggesting that the GOP just needs to cave on everything it stands for and gove Obama his way.  Somehow (you claim) this will help them politically.  1confused.gif

 

 

Quote:

First, yeah...you guessed it...not the point. Secondly, what does "need to grow up" mean? "Man up?" You seem to be suggesting that the GOP just needs to cave on everything it stands for and gove Obama his way. Somehow (you claim) this will help them politically

Nope. They just need to compromise ( they haven't been even trying until recently ). That will help them politically as in having a future.

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post #17 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Republican politicians don't want to cave because they know they are full of shit and that what Obama proposes will improve the economy, but at the cost of reducing income inequality (which the Republican donors do not approve of).  That's bad for their 2014 election hopes and post-retirement lobbying careers.

 

1.  What specifically will improve the economy, and how?  

 

2.  You are implying that Republicans don't want the economy to improve?  

 

3.  You'll have a tough time proving Obama's policies will reduce income inequality.  As for whether Republicans support doing so, that's a bigger question.  I suspect many do, but don't want the government using force to do it (redistribution).   

 

4.  It's probably too early to make those predictions.  I don't know which would hurt them more...caving in, or letting us go over the so-called cliff.   Obviously there are a lot more variables, including the political and economic environments in 2014.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Nope. They just need to compromise ( they haven't been even trying until recently ). That will help them politically as in having a future.

 

 

I disagree.  They immediately offered $800 billion in revenues (read:  tax increases).  This was a major step.  The WH rejected it out of hand.  How is that not compromise?  

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post #18 of 200
Thread Starter 

It is in Republican politicians' personal interests for the economy to tank under Obama's leadership.  And let's stop pretending that Republicans should get any cuts "in exchange" for the top 2% having their marginal tax rates increased--the people have already spoken on that one.  When Republicans have "offered" things the vast majority of the populace demand "in exchange" for repealing Obamacare, gouging Social Security, or anything else equally ridiculous, it is obvious that Republicans either aren't living in reality or don't want to deal--or maybe both.

 

How about passing Obama's jobs program?  The stimulus worked, but we needed more.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #19 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It is in Republican politicians' personal interests for the economy to tank under Obama's leadership.  And let's stop pretending that Republicans should get any cuts "in exchange" for the top 2% having their marginal tax rates increased--the people have already spoken on that one.  When Republicans have "offered" things the vast majority of the populace demand "in exchange" for repealing Obamacare, gouging Social Security, or anything else equally ridiculous, it is obvious that Republicans either aren't living in reality or don't want to deal--or maybe both.

 

How about passing Obama's jobs program?  The stimulus worked, but we needed more.  

 Oh god people are still pushing the "stimulus"? DC has a spending and borrowing problem and we're told more spending, borrowing and taxing is the solution. FML.

post #20 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Republican politicians don't want to cave because they know they are full of shit and that what Obama proposes will improve the economy, but at the cost of reducing income inequality (which the Republican donors do not approve of).  That's bad for their 2014 election hopes and post-retirement lobbying careers.

 

1.  What specifically will improve the economy, and how?  

 

2.  You are implying that Republicans don't want the economy to improve?  

 

3.  You'll have a tough time proving Obama's policies will reduce income inequality.  As for whether Republicans support doing so, that's a bigger question.  I suspect many do, but don't want the government using force to do it (redistribution).   

 

4.  It's probably too early to make those predictions.  I don't know which would hurt them more...caving in, or letting us go over the so-called cliff.   Obviously there are a lot more variables, including the political and economic environments in 2014.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Nope. They just need to compromise ( they haven't been even trying until recently ). That will help them politically as in having a future.

 

 

I disagree.  They immediately offered $800 billion in revenues (read:  tax increases).  This was a major step.  The WH rejected it out of hand.  How is that not compromise?  

Because they understand who won the election and what the polling indicates what the American voter wants. That is the Bush era tax cuts for people making more than $250,000 are not a question. They have to be removed. Then they will get their compromises from the Democratic side. And like I've said it's what the people want. Not just the Democrats.

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post #21 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Because they understand who won the election

 

If Obama has so much more power as a result of being re-elected president, then he should just come up with a budget on his own and pass it.

 

P.S. Other people besides Obama won also. People who represent a different views and positions on these issues.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

and what the polling indicates what the American voter wants.

 

They want spending cuts also. You (and the Democrats) seem to not care about that part of what they want.

 

Besides all of that, what the American people want may not be the best thing.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

That is the Bush era tax cuts for people making more than $250,000 are not a question. They have to be removed.

 

Why?

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post #22 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It is in Republican politicians' personal interests for the economy to tank under Obama's leadership.  

 

Make the case.  Be specific.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
And let's stop pretending that Republicans should get any cuts "in exchange" for the top 2% having their marginal tax rates increased--the people have already spoken on that one.  

 

By returning the GOP majority?  And even if we accepted your premise, does that mean its good policy?  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
When Republicans have "offered" things the vast majority of the populace demand

 

Such as?

 

 

 

Quote:

 

 "in exchange" for repealing Obamacare, gouging Social Security, or anything else equally ridiculous, it is obvious that Republicans either aren't living in reality or don't want to deal--or maybe both.

 

 

 

What offer on Obamacare are you referring to?  Who is proposing "gouging" Social Security?  I understand you oppose repealing Obamacare and reforming Social Security, but do you honestly feel both ideas are "ridiculous?"  

 

 

 

Quote:

 

How about passing Obama's jobs program?  The stimulus worked, but we needed more.  

 

 

 

lol.gif  The stimulus did not work, certainly not to the point where it brought more good than bad.  Really, the notion that you're arguing for more "stimulus" (read:  government spending) is just absurd.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Because they understand who won the election and what the polling indicates what the American voter wants.

 

No, that is what you are ignoring.  

 

 

Quote:
That is the Bush era tax cuts for people making more than $250,000 are not a question.

 

Ahh.  I believe the polling supports raising taxes "on the rich."  I don't know what the specific question is (i.e. what defines rich).  

 

 

 

Quote:
They have to be removed.

 

Why?  

 

 

Quote:
Then they will get their compromises from the Democratic side. And like I've said it's what the people want. Not just the Democrats.

 

People do favor "raising taxes on the rich."  That doesn't make it a good idea.  And the GOP has already offered to raise taxes on the rich.  The White House just rejected such a plan today.  It even included rate increases on those over $1,000,000.  What's the excuse now, jimmac?  

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post #23 of 200
Thread Starter 

And what ridiculous nonspecific cuts did the Repubs offer in exchange?  

 

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post #24 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And what ridiculous nonspecific cuts did the Repubs offer in exchange?  

 

I don't know what you mean by that.  

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post #25 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And what ridiculous nonspecific cuts did the Repubs offer in exchange?  

 

I don't know what you mean by that.  

 

He's getting a bit hard to understand isn't he.

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post #26 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

 

He's getting a bit hard to understand isn't he.

 

Quite.  First he criticized the GOP for wanting spending cuts in exchange for tax increases.  Then he said they offered spending cuts in exchange for...well who knows.  

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post #27 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It is in Republican politicians' personal interests for the economy to tank under Obama's leadership.

 

Why, is Obama planning to run for a third term?

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post #28 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Because they understand who won the election

 

If Obama has so much more power as a result of being re-elected president, then he should just come up with a budget on his own and pass it.

 

P.S. Other people besides Obama won also. People who represent a different views and positions on these issues.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

and what the polling indicates what the American voter wants.

 

They want spending cuts also. You (and the Democrats) seem to not care about that part of what they want.

 

Besides all of that, what the American people want may not be the best thing.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

That is the Bush era tax cuts for people making more than $250,000 are not a question. They have to be removed.

 

Why?

Well you keep asking questions you should already know the answer to!1rolleyes.gif

 

Aside from all of the other reasons it's what most of the American public want. This is reflected in the polls. Now you can harp on the " But is it the right thing to do " rhetoric but who's version of right are you talking about? In this instance it's what most of the voting public wants. And by the way that's how this country is run. Any other scenario is like I've already said. It would be a small faction dictating policy to the whole. That's just wrong. It's not the way this country is run and it's not what the founding fathers intended.

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post #29 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well you keep asking questions you should already know the answer to!1rolleyes.gif

 

I see, you want to play games.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Aside from all of the other reasons...

 

What reasons are those?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

 it's what most of the American public want.

 

So whatever a majority of Americans want, we should just do?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

This is reflected in the polls.

 

As are their desire for spending cuts, but you seem to be conveniently and consistently ignoring these.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Now you can harp on the " But is it the right thing to do " rhetoric but who's version of right are you talking about?

 

Well, first, there aren't multiple versions of right and wrong. Second, I'm speaking specifically about what would be best for the country, economy and Americans as a whole.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

In this instance it's what most of the voting public wants. And by the way that's how this country is run. Any other scenario is like I've already said. It would be a small faction dictating policy to the whole. That's just wrong. It's not the way this country is run and it's not what the founding fathers intended.

 

Actually, you're wrong, that's not what the founding father intended. They intended a constitutional federal republic with elements of representative democracy (apparently with a limited central government also) in which the will of the majority (or minority) is constrained and limited by a written constitution.

 

But we've pretty much discarded all of that by now anyway.

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post #30 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Because they understand who won the election

 

If Obama has so much more power as a result of being re-elected president, then he should just come up with a budget on his own and pass it.

 

P.S. Other people besides Obama won also. People who represent a different views and positions on these issues.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

and what the polling indicates what the American voter wants.

 

They want spending cuts also. You (and the Democrats) seem to not care about that part of what they want.

 

Besides all of that, what the American people want may not be the best thing.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

That is the Bush era tax cuts for people making more than $250,000 are not a question. They have to be removed.

 

Why?

Well you keep asking questions you should already know the answer to!1rolleyes.gif

 

Aside from all of the other reasons it's what most of the American public want. This is reflected in the polls. Now you can harp on the " But is it the right thing to do " rhetoric but who's version of right are you talking about? In this instance it's what most of the voting public wants. And by the way that's how this country is run. Any other scenario is like I've already said. It would be a small faction dictating policy to the whole. That's just wrong. It's not the way this country is run and it's not what the founding fathers intended.

 

 

I wonder how many hits a search for the terms "Jimmac" and "tyranny of the majority" would turn up from during the Bush years?

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post #31 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well you keep asking questions you should already know the answer to!1rolleyes.gif

 

Aside from all of the other reasons it's what most of the American public want. 

 

Does that make it the right thing to do?  

 

 

Quote:
This is reflected in the polls.

 

That depends on the issue.  Yes, they support higher taxes on the rich (even though that makes no sense).  But they support spending cuts, too.  Funny how you've ignored that.  

 

Quote:
 Now you can harp on the " But is it the right thing to do " rhetoric but who's version of right are you talking about?

 

Uh, the version that works mathematically?  

 

 

Quote:
In this instance it's what most of the voting public wants

 

Again, you're referencing only that part you want to hear.  They want a lot of things.  Funny how you focus only on raising taxes for the rich.  People also want less government, less spending, less involvement in their lives, etc.  

 

 

Quote:
And by the way that's how this country is run.

 

No, it's not actually.  See the previous comments on a representative Republic.  We don't live in a pure democracy. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Any other scenario is like I've already said. It would be a small faction dictating policy to the whole.

 

That is incorrect, because we have another scenario...we have the aforementioned Republic.  The majority rules, but only as consistent with the Constitution (well..at least that's how it was intended to work).   

 

 

 

Quote:
 That's just wrong. It's not the way this country is run and it's not what the founding fathers intended.

 

Strawman.  No one is arguing that the founding father intended us to me ruled by a tiny minority.  In fact, how you fail to see the irony if your statement is beyond me.  Our founding fathers would be horrified and deeply saddened at what our government has become.  Do you honestly think they envisioned the government we have?  Do you honestly think they wanted a cradle-to-grave entitlement system?  Do you honestly think they meant for the 1st Amendment to prevent public expression of religion?  Do you honestly think that they would have sanctioned a health care bill that requires the populace to buy a private product?  Do you honestly think they would support trillion-dollar "stimulus" programs, bailouts, etc?  And how can you argue for simple majority rule while 1) ignoring what the majority is actually saying and 2) arguing to get back to the founding fathers' intent (i.e. the Constitution)?   

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post #32 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Because they understand who won the election

 

If Obama has so much more power as a result of being re-elected president, then he should just come up with a budget on his own and pass it.

 

P.S. Other people besides Obama won also. People who represent a different views and positions on these issues.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

and what the polling indicates what the American voter wants.

 

They want spending cuts also. You (and the Democrats) seem to not care about that part of what they want.

 

Besides all of that, what the American people want may not be the best thing.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

That is the Bush era tax cuts for people making more than $250,000 are not a question. They have to be removed.

 

Why?

Well you keep asking questions you should already know the answer to!1rolleyes.gif

 

Aside from all of the other reasons it's what most of the American public want. This is reflected in the polls. Now you can harp on the " But is it the right thing to do " rhetoric but who's version of right are you talking about? In this instance it's what most of the voting public wants. And by the way that's how this country is run. Any other scenario is like I've already said. It would be a small faction dictating policy to the whole. That's just wrong. It's not the way this country is run and it's not what the founding fathers intended.

 

 

I wonder how many hits a search for the terms "Jimmac" and "tyranny of the majority" would turn up from during the Bush years?

Why don't you try that search and see what you get?  Although I can already tell you since I've never claimed anything remotely like that. If you want to contend that statrement trumpy why don't you prove me wrong. 1wink.gif

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post #33 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well you keep asking questions you should already know the answer to!1rolleyes.gif

 

Aside from all of the other reasons it's what most of the American public want. 

 

Does that make it the right thing to do?  

 

 

Quote:
This is reflected in the polls.

 

That depends on the issue.  Yes, they support higher taxes on the rich (even though that makes no sense).  But they support spending cuts, too.  Funny how you've ignored that.  

 

Quote:
 Now you can harp on the " But is it the right thing to do " rhetoric but who's version of right are you talking about?

 

Uh, the version that works mathematically?  

 

 

Quote:
In this instance it's what most of the voting public wants

 

Again, you're referencing only that part you want to hear.  They want a lot of things.  Funny how you focus only on raising taxes for the rich.  People also want less government, less spending, less involvement in their lives, etc.  

 

 

Quote:
And by the way that's how this country is run.

 

No, it's not actually.  See the previous comments on a representative Republic.  We don't live in a pure democracy. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Any other scenario is like I've already said. It would be a small faction dictating policy to the whole.

 

That is incorrect, because we have another scenario...we have the aforementioned Republic.  The majority rules, but only as consistent with the Constitution (well..at least that's how it was intended to work).   

 

 

 

Quote:
 That's just wrong. It's not the way this country is run and it's not what the founding fathers intended.

 

Strawman.  No one is arguing that the founding father intended us to me ruled by a tiny minority.  In fact, how you fail to see the irony if your statement is beyond me.  Our founding fathers would be horrified and deeply saddened at what our government has become.  Do you honestly think they envisioned the government we have?  Do you honestly think they wanted a cradle-to-grave entitlement system?  Do you honestly think they meant for the 1st Amendment to prevent public expression of religion?  Do you honestly think that they would have sanctioned a health care bill that requires the populace to buy a private product?  Do you honestly think they would support trillion-dollar "stimulus" programs, bailouts, etc?  And how can you argue for simple majority rule while 1) ignoring what the majority is actually saying and 2) arguing to get back to the founding fathers' intent (i.e. the Constitution)?   

 

Quote:

 ignoring what the majority is actually saying and

What's this your special polls again?lol.gif

 

Everything I've seen says the majority wants congress to approve the rich ($ 250,000 and above ) tax cut roll back. Maybe you can show me something different but from what I've seen and read that's what they support. I'll tell you what they'd ( the founding fathers ) be horrified over. The smaller minority at the top getting big breaks while the average person ( the middlel class ) is struggleing to keep up They'd go " Why did we even leave England? We have the signs of a ruling class here now " . That's what the Republicans support and it's why their popularity is waining.

 

 

And SDW who's defining what the right thing to do is?1wink.gif

 

Is it the right thing to do because the rich don't want their taxes to go up? Or would the opposite be the right thing to do because it's unfair to the average person who can't afford to bear the tax burden? I'm sure the Republicans and anyone who makes more than $250,00 would as you say define it as " Right ".lol.gif

 

Either way this is a democracy ( inspite of how MJ views it  ) and the majority vote rules. Not the tiny portion at the top.

 

Ps. By the way I've never denied they ( the voters ) want cuts. The Democrats want them also but they want this tax issue resolved first. And that is what the voters want.


Edited by jimmac - 12/20/12 at 2:00pm
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post #34 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I'll tell you what they'd ( the founding fathers ) be horrified over.

 

The level of taxation, spending and size of government as it is now.

 

Heck the colonies seceded from England and fought a revolutionary war over less than this.

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post #35 of 200

Let's see what fun we can have with this idea:

 

 

New poll shows majority of Americans oppose government-run healthcare
 
Poll: Majority of Americans Oppose Obama Abortion-HHS Mandate
 
Majority of Americans Oppose Government Dependency Levels
 
Poll: Most Americans Oppose Obamacare
 
Majority of Americans Oppose Abortion Funding
 
CNN Poll: Majority of Americans oppose Palestinian statehood
 
Majority of Americans Oppose Raising the Debt Ceiling
 
Politico Poll: Majority Of Americans Oppose Gay Marriage
 
NOTE: This was before a majority supported it.
 
Poll: Only 27% of Americans back US-led Afghan war
 
Survey: Majority of Americans Oppose Job-Killing Tax Hikes Demanded By POTUS on Debt Limit
 
Poll: Majority of Americans oppose individual mandate
 
Poll: Majority Of Americans Support Boy Scouts Of America's Gay Ban
 
Majority of Americans Support U.S. Drone Campaign
 
Majority of Americans support legalizing marijuana: poll
 
NOTE: This was after opposing it.
 
A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS SUPPORT TAX CUTS AS A WAY TO STIMULATE THE ECONOMY
 
Poll: Majority of Americans Support the Death Penalty
 
Majority of Americans support Israel’s operation in Gaza
 
Majority of Americans Support “Internet Kill Switch”
 
WASHINGTON POST POLL: NEARLY 75% OF AMERICANS SUPPORT VOTER ID LAWS
 
 
BTW, a majority of Americans also supported the invasion of Iraq before it happened.
 
Polls are a kind of shitty way to govern and lead.

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post #36 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

 

What's this your special polls again?lol.gif

 

The polls I'm referencing are widely available.  I think you know it.  

 

 

Quote:
Everything I've seen says the majority wants congress to approve the rich ($ 250,000 and above ) tax cut roll back. Maybe you can show me something different but from what I've seen and read that's what they support.

 

I don't know what the exact figure is ($250,000?) in those polls, but you're correct that people favor taxing wealthy Americans more.  I've actually seen some evidence that people think the number should be higher, though I don't know of any polling data that supports this...yet.  

 

 

Quote:
 I'll tell you what they'd ( the founding fathers ) be horrified over. The smaller minority at the top getting big breaks

 

Such as?  Our tax system is among the most progressive in the world.  

 

Quote:
while the average person ( the middlel class ) is struggleing to keep up They'd go " Why did we even leave England? We have the signs of a ruling class here now " 

 

So you're claiming that these "big breaks" are responsible for a struggling middle class?  How?  What breaks?  How will ending them help the middle class?  

 

 

Quote:

That's what the Republicans support and it's why their popularity is waining.

 

Are you honestly trying the "Republicans only are out for the rich" line?  Because I've gotta tell you, you sound ridiculous if so.  

 

 

 

Quote:
And SDW who's defining what the right thing to do is?1wink.gif

 

Math.  Logic.  History.  Three very important fellows.  

 

 

Quote:
Is it the right thing to do because the rich don't want their taxes to go up?

 

No.  It's not the wrong thing due to that, either.  

 

O

 

Quote:
Or would the opposite be the right thing to do because it's unfair to the average person who can't afford to bear the tax burden?

 

Is someone suggesting tax cuts for the average person?  Is someone suggesting we lower taxes for the wealthy instead of the middle class?  

 

 

Quote:
I'm sure the Republicans and anyone who makes more than $250,00 would as you say define it as " Right ".lol.gif

 

Who says that specifically?  Judging one's arguments based on his income would seem useless (unless, that is, we're talking about how to make lots of money).  

 

 

 

Quote:
Either way this is a democracy ( inspite of how MJ views it  )

 

No, it's not.  It's a Democratic Republic.  

 

 

Quote:
and the majority vote rules.

 

No, it doesn't.  Not necessarily.  

 

 

Quote:

 Not the tiny portion at the top.

 

 

 Unfortunately, they do..and this applies to both parties.   

 

 

 

Quote:
Ps. By the way I've never denied they ( the voters ) want cuts. The Democrats want them also but they want this tax issue resolved first. And that is what the voters want.

 

You also haven't acknowledged it until now.  As for Democrats, what have they proposed?  There is zero evidence they support any real cuts.  Obama's first offer included no cuts and $50 billion in NEW spending.  Come on, jimmac.  

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post #37 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Either way this is a democracy ( inspite of how MJ views it  ) and the majority vote rules.

 

Looks like someone failed (or should have) civics/american history & government class.

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post #38 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Looks like someone failed (or should have) civics/american history & government class.

 

It would seem so.  Then again, he also thinks that raising taxes on the so-called rich is good policy, will be effective in reducing our deficit, and creating growth.  

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post #39 of 200

Well folks it looks like the conservatives are still stuck in their rhetorical rut. Right off the edge of the cliff!

 

And by cliff I'm not just referring to the fiscal cliff I'm talking about their own image / popularity support cliff.

 

Oh well some things just have to fail and go away ( or shrink into obscurity ) before they can change. I'm sure ( and it sounds like ) the extreme factions of conservatism just don't get that.

 

It won't change what has to happen for the GOP to be viable again. Oh well!  With some things you just have to sit back and let happen.1wink.gif

 

Ps. It's just too bad in the mean time it has to affect the rest of us!

 

 


Edited by jimmac - 12/21/12 at 2:46pm
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post #40 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Looks like someone failed (or should have) civics/american history & government class.

 

It would seem so.  Then again, he also thinks that raising taxes on the so-called rich is good policy, will be effective in reducing our deficit, and creating growth.  

You guys do realize you were peddling the same kind of stuff just before the last two elections?1smoking.gif

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