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Inaccurate Apple Maps directions causes 'life threatening issue' for travelers, says Australian... - Page 9

post #321 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by rochford View Post

I've noticed since Maps launched putting virtually any non major NSW city into search and the pin is either miles away (say Parkes, NSW) or on the towns edge (say Orange, NSW), and Tom Tom Australia have done nothing to fix. Strange thing is put a specific street address in one of those towns and it seems to be precise.

A poster on Slashdot suggests that maps is pinning the location to the centre of the LGA, where the LGA and the principal city within it share the same name.
 

http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3305149&cid=42240717

 

Interesting. I can't think of too many case where in mapping app I would choose a less precise location over a more precise one. Yes, I know some of you can concoct *something*, but typically, I'm looking for a location, not a locality.

post #322 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Oh, can you link to some of that evidence? And by evidence, I mean object comparisons, not anecdotal, incidental stories. Because, so far, no one has been able to provide a link to this evidence. I knew you'd know where we could find the evidence.

No need for links, Google Street View is available on Google Maps, but Apple Maps doesn't implement anything similar, so Apple Maps can't replace that.
post #323 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Wait, you're actually using this as your argument?

 

Well, he figures if he recasts his argument in that vein, he can maintain he's right, based on his premise at least. It's a bit of a joke, sure, but lets play along. 1wink.gif

post #324 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Oh, can you link to some of that evidence? And by evidence, I mean object comparisons, not anecdotal, incidental stories. Because, so far, no one has been able to provide a link to this evidence. I knew you'd know where we could find the evidence.

 

http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/

 

There you go. If you look through them, you'll see some side-by-side comparisons of the same location in Apple Maps and Google Maps.

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post #325 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

OK I don't get the comparisons to Google maps from 7 years ago. Fact is Apple waited this long to get into the mapping business and people are going to compare it to other established mapping services. Why exactly does Apple feel it needs to be in the mapping business anyway? Is it just for data mining? Is there no other service besides Google's that they could have used?

 

To be fair, Google maps didn't have voice command integration 7 years ago, and iOS maps at least has Siri integration. 7 years ago, saying the following phrases to your mapping application would have been futile:

 

"Where the heck are we, Siri?"

"Siri, this abandoned coal mine doesn't look like a Starbucks to me"

"Will I need 4 wheel drive to get over this crazy looking bridge in 3D view Siri?"

post #326 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rochford View Post

I've noticed since Maps launched putting virtually any non major NSW city into search and the pin is either miles away (say Parkes, NSW) or on the towns edge (say Orange, NSW), and Tom Tom Australia have done nothing to fix. Strange thing is put a specific street address in one of those towns and it seems to be precise.

A poster on Slashdot suggests that maps is pinning the location to the centre of the LGA, where the LGA and the principal city within it share the same name.
 

http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3305149&cid=42240717

 

Interesting. I can't think of too many case where in mapping app I would choose a less precise location over a more precise one. Yes, I know some of you can concoct *something*, but typically, I'm looking for a location, not a locality.

 

That has been pointed out several times already in this thread.

post #327 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

 

People are getting lost in a dangerous part of Australia: Fact

The people the police rescued were using Apple Maps: Fact (until someone proves to me otherwise)

The users of Apple Maps were unfamiliar with the area: Fact

Apple Maps shows Mildura as in the middle of a national park of Australia: Fact

The users were thinking they were making a simple highway drive and thus didn't see a reason to need to pack survival gear: Fact

Apple Maps led these particular people way off course into a dangerous situation they were not prepared for: Fact

 

It seems to me that the police got their facts straight.

 

If anything, your request is actually what would put more people in danger, as you're basically telling us all that Apple Maps is not to blame and there's nothing wrong with it in Australia.

Not packing a survival kit in Australia is not smart, I am not saying this caused them to get in danger or is the main reason, but ask any sensible Australian or Kiwi and you should always have your survival kit in your car. Just for that reason, unexpected!

post #328 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

 

People are getting lost in a dangerous part of Australia: Fact

The people the police rescued were using Apple Maps: Fact (until someone proves to me otherwise)

The users of Apple Maps were unfamiliar with the area: Fact

Apple Maps shows Mildura as in the middle of a national park of Australia: Fact

The users were thinking they were making a simple highway drive and thus didn't see a reason to need to pack survival gear: Fact

Apple Maps led these particular people way off course into a dangerous situation they were not prepared for: Fact

 

It seems to me that the police got their facts straight.

 

If anything, your request is actually what would put more people in danger, as you're basically telling us all that Apple Maps is not to blame and there's nothing wrong with it in Australia.

 

So, all the other mapping software is perfectly safe then? No chance of getting lost in a dangerous area? Glad we sorted that out. As long as people use some other mapping solution, there is absolutely nothing to fear. Thanks.

post #329 of 498
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post
http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/

 

There you go. If you look through them, you'll see some side-by-side comparisons of the same location in Apple Maps and Google Maps.

 

NO DOUBLE STANDARD HERE!

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post #330 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

 

http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/

 

There you go. If you look through them, you'll see some side-by-side comparisons of the same location in Apple Maps and Google Maps.

 

As we all know, there's nothing about that site that qualifies it as an objective comparison. Perhaps you didn't understand the question.

post #331 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It wasn't great. No TBT. No vector graphics. Forced to allow customer data to feed back into the Google data mines like that scene in Temple of Doom where all the kids are working in that underground cavern.
It was a tough spot for Apple and another would have been better, but they didn't have another year. They made the best choice from a bad situation, but fear not because it's a temporary situation, just as Google Maps was worse than Map Quest at the start.
The only thing to fault Apple for is over promising and under delivering instead of acknowledging up front that there will be some growing pains but that Apple Maps will be the best maps in the world in a lot less time than it took Google to get its maps straightened out.

And Apple is data mining right now?

 

Of course Apple is data mining...

 

It's what they do based on that data!  

 

Google tracks you and sells your data to advertisers.  

 

Apple tracks you, uses your data to improve your UX -- and only provides aggregate data to 3rd-parties.

 

I suspect that this is the issue that prevented Apple and Google from reaching an agreement to bring all the "new" [Android] map features to iOS6 and iDevices

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post #332 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post


No need for links, Google Street View is available on Google Maps, but Apple Maps doesn't implement anything similar, so Apple Maps can't replace that.

 

Oh, I see. You aren't concerned with the overall quality of the mapping data, just a feature checklist. I think you're posting in the wrong thread, that's not what this discussion is about.

post #333 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

 

http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/

 

There you go. If you look through them, you'll see some side-by-side comparisons of the same location in Apple Maps and Google Maps.

Are u for real!!!!!

 

The computer says NO!

post #334 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

As we all know, there's nothing about that site that qualifies it as an objective comparison. Perhaps you didn't understand the question.

Or perhaps you can define "objective" so that we can scrutinize the application of your definition to the context of this debate.
post #335 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Not packing a survival kit in Australia is not smart, I am not saying this caused them to get in danger or is the main reason, but ask any sensible Australian or Kiwi and you should always have your survival kit in your car. Just for that reason, unexpected!

 

Granted. But these are tourists we're talking about. The public at-large is relatively stupid.

 

Hell, I live in the urban US and I still have a decent safety kit in my car. I should probably get some road flares for the coming winter.

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post #336 of 498
Maybe the intended word wasn't travelling
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoblenet View Post

There is no need to put "(sic)" after "travelling" as that is the correct spelling in Australian English.
post #337 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Oh, I see. You aren't concerned with the overall quality of the mapping data, just a feature checklist. I think you're posting in the wrong thread, that's not what this discussion is about.

That deduction is irrational. Just because I mentioned a concrete case doesn't mean that case is the only thing I care about. I only mentioned one case because that was all it took to refute you; it doesn't make sense to read into it.
post #338 of 498
Go on without him? How could you wish someone dead because of mutual name calling? That's just mean!
post #339 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

As we all know, there's nothing about that site that qualifies it as an objective comparison. Perhaps you didn't understand the question.

 

You ask for non-anecdotal evidence. I show you pictures users took from Apple Maps on their device. You still say that doesn't qualify as evidence. What is your definition of objective? All I see is people posting the mistakes in Apple Maps that they've come across in their use of it. You have to admit that those are some pretty glaring mistakes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far, Google Maps doesn't have a satellite view of an area in three different shades like a Neapolitan ice cream sandwich. 

 

So I'm guessing I'll have to personally show up to your house and bring up all the places listed on that post to satisfy you?

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post #340 of 498
Thankfully Apple quickly fixed another dangerous error near my house. Just moved to the area. The shortest route directed my to drive off a four metre cliff because the map data confused two no-through roads with a single road. In the dark it may have been difficult to spot.
post #341 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

People are getting lost in a dangerous part of Australia: Fact
The people the police rescued were using Apple Maps: Fact (until someone proves to me otherwise)
The users of Apple Maps were unfamiliar with the area: Fact
Apple Maps shows Mildura as in the middle of a national park of Australia: Fact
The users were thinking they were making a simple highway drive and thus didn't see a reason to need to pack survival gear: Fact
Apple Maps led these particular people way off course into a dangerous situation they were not prepared for: Fact

It seems to me that the police got their facts straight.

If anything, your request is actually what would put more people in danger, as you're basically telling us all that Apple Maps is not to blame and there's nothing wrong with it in Australia.

Fact: Instead of turning around and going back the way they came, they left their vehicle and wandered around for 24 hours.

Fact: There are signs that you are entering a national park.

Fact: It is entirely implausible that there was NO warning that they weren't going to get where they were going.

Fact: There are other examples posted earlier in this thread where other navigation systems have created problems (including at least some deaths). No one ever said that Apple Maps was perfect, but neither is any other navigation system out there.

Fact: The problem didn't come up for the months after Apple Maps was released - and then suddenly "a number of people" are all affected at once.

Fact: ALL of the people affected just happened to enter the city name rather than a street address (which would have been mapped properly).

Sounds to me like:
a. Australia suddenly gave drivers' licenses to some intensely stupid people.
or
b. The entire thing was orchestrated.
Edited by jragosta - 12/10/12 at 1:15pm
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post #342 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post


That deduction is irrational. Just because I mentioned a concrete case doesn't mean that case is the only thing I care about. I only mentioned one case because that was all it took to refute you; it doesn't make sense to read into it.

 

Well, no, you haven't refuted anything because the entire discussion is about the relative quality of the mapping data. You comment about street view doesn't address that at all. So, what you've done is make an irrelevant comment.

post #343 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

 

Granted. But these are tourists we're talking about. The public at-large is relatively stupid.

 

Hell, I live in the urban US and I still have a decent safety kit in my car. I should probably get some road flares for the coming winter.

Come on that is even worst, you go into different country and not have a reliable  paper map and only use electronic map in unknown area, come on, that stinks of stupidity. It sound like when I travelled from Ramona CA to las Vegas using my Nav system and wondered why I took so long instead of reading signs on the way and recalbrating the system.

Common sense is forgotten to technology nowadays!

post #344 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

NO DOUBLE STANDARD HERE!

 

Awesome! Thanks for point that out to me.

 

I'm just answering his question about showing evidence that Apple Maps is as bad as people are saying it is.

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post #345 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, no, you haven't refuted anything because the entire discussion is about the relative quality of the mapping data.

The branch of the discussion we're in has strayed from that a long time ago thus making it irrelevant for you to bring this up because when I posted my first reply to this branch it was already derailed. Don't ignore the context of a discussion that you willingly joined just because it's not convenient to you anymore.
post #346 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

 

You ask for non-anecdotal evidence. I show you pictures users took from Apple Maps on their device. You still say that doesn't qualify as evidence. What is your definition of objective? All I see is people posting the mistakes in Apple Maps that they've come across in their use of it. You have to admit that those are some pretty glaring mistakes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far, Google Maps doesn't have a satellite view of an area in three different shades like a Neapolitan ice cream sandwich. 

 

So I'm guessing I'll have to personally show up to your house and bring up all the places listed on that post to satisfy you?

 

I gave a link at the beginning of this thread that illustrates what is meant by an objective comparison. So far, no one has been able to provide even a single link using similar or equivalent methodology to show that Google's map data or search results are better than Apple's, even in a similarly limited area. People on both sides of the issue can point to specific instances or where both are laughably wrong, but if you're going to make comprehensive claims, you need to provide comprehensive evidence.

post #347 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

Yes, there's lots of evidence of that thus making it factual, ranging from missing features to missing or inaccurate data that Google Maps gets right to the less forgiving search functionality. While Apple Maps may have things that Google Maps lacks, that doesn't make it as good as Google Maps. As long as Google Maps is better than Apple Maps at something, Apple Maps won't be a suitable replacement for it.

Let's try to put this simply - although if your previous posts are any indication, you'll simply obfuscate or refuse to comply. (Same thing applies to Asian Bob. A few pictures does not prove anything. Try to follow along).

1. There are errors in Apple Maps. That is indisputable. The number has not been defined.

2. There are errors in Google Maps. That is indisputable. The number has not been defined.


Now, unless you have evidence that the number in (1) is greater than the number in (2), then your repeated claim that Apple Maps is worse than Google Maps is false.

Simply saying "there are lots of errors in Apple Maps" does not prove that. Simply saying "some of the errors in Apple Maps are things that Google Maps got right" does not prove it. You need to be able to show that the number of errors in Apple Maps is greater than the number of errors in Google Maps for your argument to be correct. So where is the evidence supporting that claim?

(You may go run and hide, as usual, now).
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post #348 of 498

Surely, in modern times, no map made by a professional would be 40 miles off. So they would either have a (reasonably) accurate map of a given place or no map at all. So what has happened here? Some kind of database loader program error? It's just odd.

post #349 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post


The branch of the discussion we're in has strayed from that a long time ago thus making it irrelevant for you to bring this up because when I posted my first reply to this branch it was already derailed. Don't ignore the context of a discussion that you willingly joined just because it's not convenient to you anymore.

 

I guess that's why none of your comments make any sense. You were talking about something unrelated the whole time.

 

Which rule # is that, I wonder?

post #350 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I gave a link at the beginning of this thread that illustrates what is meant by an objective comparison.

And I demonstrated that the link you provided did not back up your claims and even mentioned some cases where Google maps is better (like the search), thus refuting your point.
post #351 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Let's try to put this simply - although if your previous posts are any indication, you'll simply obfuscate or refuse to comply. (Same thing applies to Asian Bob. A few pictures does not prove anything. Try to follow along).
1. There are errors in Apple Maps. That is indisputable. The number has not been defined.
2. There are errors in Google Maps. That is indisputable. The number has not been defined.
Now, unless you have evidence that the number in (1) is greater than the number in (2), then your repeated claim that Apple Maps is worse than Google Maps is false.
Simply saying "there are lots of errors in Apple Maps" does not prove that. Simply saying "some of the errors in Apple Maps are things that Google Maps got right" does not prove it. You need to be able to show that the number of errors in Apple Maps is greater than the number of errors in Google Maps for your argument to be correct. So where is the evidence supporting that claim?
(You may go run and hide, as usual, now).

 

He was talking about something else, no one knew, our bad. (We still haven't been able to pin down exactly what he was talking about, of course.)

post #352 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I guess that's why none of your comments make any sense. You were talking about something unrelated the whole time.

Not my fault if you are incapable of following the context of a thread... I came late and managed to do it; you seem to be the only confused party here...
post #353 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

He was talking about something else, no one knew, our bad. (We still haven't been able to pin down exactly what he was talking about, of course.)

Prove that no one knew. So far, the only one who seems to be confused is you... I even asked, several times, exactly what it was that you were not understanding, and you never replied to my questions, implying that you actually understood, which I am now interpreting as a reaction of shame.
post #354 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post


And I demonstrated that the link you provided did not back up your claims and even mentioned some cases where Google maps is better (like the search), thus refuting your point.

 

Given that the link did not declare Google Maps better, not even in search (Google Maps more likely to return a search result but search result more likely to be nonsense hardly qualifies as better.) it's hard to see how you refuted anything, especially when you weren't talking about the quality of the mapping data, but just a feature comparison. Oh, right, you said it refutes it, I get it.

post #355 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post


Prove that no one knew. So far, the only one who seems to be confused is you... I even asked, several times, exactly what it was that you were not understanding, and you never replied to my questions, implying that you actually understood, which I am now interpreting as a reaction of shame.

 

Now you've stooped to rewriting history?

post #356 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Fact: Instead of turning around and going back the way they came, they left their vehicle and wandered around for 24 hours.
Fact: There are signs that you are entering a national park.
Fact: It is entirely implausible that there was NO warning that they weren't going to get where they were going.
Fact: There are other examples posted earlier in this thread where other navigation systems have created problems (including at least some deaths). No one ever said that Apple Maps was perfect, but neither is any other navigation system out there.
Fact: The problem didn't come up for the months after Apple Maps was released - and then suddenly "a number of people" are all affected at once.
Sounds to me like:
a. Australia suddenly gave drivers' licenses to some intensely stupid people.
or
b. The entire thing was orchestrated.

 

Wondering Around: I'll give you that one. I have no idea why they would wonder around. Only thought is that they might have run out of gas.

 

Signs: If you go under the assumption they are tourists, what makes you believe that crossing through a park wasn't part of the route? Espeically if the route on their trusted device is saying to go through it. I make this assumption because local people would know that's not the way and would not have gone that way to begin with.

 

Other Devices: But the motorists weren't using "other navigation devices", now were they?

 

Timing: That is a good question. Maybe most people figured it out, but as said, there are plenty of stupid people in the world. Usually trends take a while before the police issue statements.

 

Sounds to me like:

A. Australia does have stupid people (welcome to the rest of the world?)

B. Motorists unfamiliar with the area used Apple Maps and got lost

C. The whole thing was orchestrated alright. In your head. *cue tin foil hat music*

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post #357 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_veritas View Post

I find nothing irrational about making a statement in the interest of public safety after MULTIPLE recurring instances. In my opinion, you simply come across as an Apple apologist that is sour grapes because it happened to be iOS Maps that was the offending application.

Well, no. Proper response would have been for the police to tell people not to rely on GPS without thinking (as the police did in the Death Vally case). When the police single out Apple Maps, it sends an implied message that other mapping solutions are foolproof - which is not the case.

Proper response: "do not rely on any GPS solution. Make sure you are prepared with water and supplies. And if you get lost, either stay where you are until help arrives or turn around and retrace your path"

Improper response: "Apple Maps is dangerous".

Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Quote:

Wait wait wait. So your excuse for this is "Well people have gotten lost using our competitors' products. So there's no need to address issues with our products that could lead to disasterous results."

I'm just curious where you came up with that. Who ever said that Apple shouldn't improve their product?

Please stop with the straw man arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

Well, that's just it isn't?

When folk follow a generic GPS without thinking, we call them idiots.
When folk follow the Maps app without thinking, Cupertino is 'endangering lives'.

1rolleyes.gif

Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Are you familiar with the Tumblr site that was made after Apple Maps came out? It's pretty much an endless collection of user-submitted screenshots of all kinds of mistakes in Apple Maps. If that isn't "evidence", I don't know what is.

Don't blame us that you never took a critical thinking course and don't know what evidence is.

Here, I'll repeat it for you:
Quote:
1. There are errors in Apple Maps. That is indisputable. The number has not been defined.

2. There are errors in Google Maps. That is indisputable. The number has not been defined.

Now, unless you have evidence that the number in (1) is greater than the number in (2), then your repeated claim that Apple Maps is worse than Google Maps is false.

Simply saying "there are lots of errors in Apple Maps" does not prove that. Simply saying "some of the errors in Apple Maps are things that Google Maps got right" does not prove it. You need to be able to show that the number of errors in Apple Maps is greater than the number of errors in Google Maps for your argument to be correct. So where is the evidence supporting that claim?

So, if you're going to continue to claim that Apple Maps is worse than Google Maps, you must be able to show that #1 is greater than #2. So where is the evidence of that?
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post #358 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Given that the link did not declare Google Maps better, not even in search (Google Maps more likely to return a search result but search result more likely to be nonsense hardly qualifies as better.)

That's not given, and you also seem to lack reading comprehension (which does not surprise me anymore, as you can guess by my previous replies to you). What the article that you linked to says is the following:
Quote:
Google always returns a result, while Apple only seems to return results when they are a precise match, possibly explaining why the latter’s data appears to be less complete

This doesn't mean Google returns crap; what it means is that Google understands what you want better. I even gave an example of such a case in this thread when I mentioned the problems I have with Apple Maps not recognizing characters such as 'a', 'á', 'à', and 'ã' as representing the same letter in searches.
post #359 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Given that the link did not declare Google Maps better, not even in search (Google Maps more likely to return a search result but search result more likely to be nonsense hardly qualifies as better.) it's hard to see how you refuted anything, especially when you weren't talking about the quality of the mapping data, but just a feature comparison. Oh, right, you said it refutes it, I get it.

You're forgetting that Vaelian has some magic logic powers. Earlier in this thread, for example, he told me that he had already refuted every argument I had ever made as well as any argument I would ever make in the future.

It's amazing how someone like that with no concept of what logic entails can post so many posts full of drivel.
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post #360 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

That's not given, and you also seem to lack reading comprehension (which does not surprise me anymore, as you can guess by my previous replies to you). What the article that you linked to says is the following:
This doesn't mean Google returns crap; what it means is that Google understand what you want better. I even gave an example of such a case in this thread when I mentioned the problems I have with Apple Maps not recognizing that characters such as 'a', 'á', 'à', and 'ã' as representing the same letter in searches.

Once again:
Quote:
1. There are errors in Apple Maps. That is indisputable. The number has not been defined.

2. There are errors in Google Maps. That is indisputable. The number has not been defined.

Now, unless you have evidence that the number in (1) is greater than the number in (2), then your repeated claim that Apple Maps is worse than Google Maps is false.

Simply saying "there are lots of errors in Apple Maps" does not prove that. Simply saying "some of the errors in Apple Maps are things that Google Maps got right" does not prove it. You need to be able to show that the number of errors in Apple Maps is greater than the number of errors in Google Maps for your argument to be correct. So where is the evidence supporting that claim?

So please show us the evidence that #1 is greater than #2. You keep insisting on the claim that Apple Maps is worse, so you must have evidence to prove that #1 is greater than #2. So where is it? The article you cited didn't support that claim (and was only very limited, anyway).
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AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Inaccurate Apple Maps directions causes 'life threatening issue' for travelers, says Australian police [u]