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post #401 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

1. You claimed that Apple Maps was inferior in accuracy.

Nope, I did not make any quality claims in this thread. Feel free to prove me wrong with a quote, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

2. You refuse to provide even a shred of evidence that x > y (in my example above).

You refuse to explain why that's relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

3. I point out that you have failed to prove the claim you made.

I claim that I haven't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

4. Having lost that argument, you try to change the argument to features.

I didn't lose an argument; you failed to explain why providing the evidence you request is relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

What's that got to do with the argument?

Everything? You may refer back to the third page in the thread where people were questioning the reason for the double standard, which is what I replied to. If you joined the debate without knowing what it was about, that's your problem, not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

First, the argument was about accuracy, not features. You only changed it to features after you lost the accuracy argument.

Nope, it wasn't. The claims of accuracy were part of someone else's argument which relevance was never fully explained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Second, the differences in features are essentially:
1. Street view vs Fly By. Both perform essentially the same function and the choice between them is largely subjective. Neither one is likely to have any impact on safety, though.

I can read door numbers in Street View. Can you do the same in FlyBy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

2. Turn-by-turn directions vs. lack of turn-by-turn directions. Google's lack of turn-by-turn directions could be a serious safety matter since a lot of people are killed and injured each year by looking at their electronic devices rather than the road.

Irrelevant, nobody expects Google to be better since it didn't replace anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

So, even with your switch to a features argument, you lose.

How?
post #402 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

I whole-heartedly agree with keeping with Occam's Razor. However, it seems others want to make it more complex than it needs to be. I'm just showing that if you use even their side of the argument, it ends up coming to the same dead end that they're trying to prove.

Once again, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm simply showing that you haven't proven your assertion.

Until you learn the difference, you have no business even discussing this.
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post #403 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Obviously, you don't have a clue about logic.
I was not arguing for either position. I was simply pointing out the flaws in his argument. Destroying someone else's argument does not mean that I'm necessarily taking the other side.

 

Right, because you are so logically superior to all of us.... At least I accurately understand what a false dichotomy actually is.

 

To be clear, you tried to present my 2 theories as a false dichotomy. This would imply that I setup the argument to only have 2 possible conclusions, with one being clearly outrageous, leaving the other as the apparent valid conclusion. The only problem to this is that BOTH were presented as valid theories, with the inference only being that one was a 'simpler conclusion' with 'all things being equal'. You even proceeded to repeat verbatim and justify what would have been the "clearly outrageous" opposition theory; which is why I'm at a complete loss for why you characterized my comment as you did.

post #404 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

 

I agree with most of what you say except: 

 

 

 

 

Apple may have had no choice:

 

I suspect that:

 

  • Apple and Google had a multi-year agreement that Google furnish back-end data and services to Apple's Maps app.
  • this agreement was renegotiated for each new iOS/iDevice release
  • existing and older iOSes and iDevices were supported as an extension (or a condition) of the existing agreement 

 

I suspect that in the iOS 6 negotiations:

 

  • Apple wanted all the Map features available to Android
  • Google wanted to include ads in maps
  • Google wanted to track location and user data

 

A standoff resulted.  If they could not reach agreement, Apple had no choice but to offer their own solution for new iDevices and iOS6 and  discontinue the prior maps app  for same.

 

 

I have no way of knowing that the above is true -- but I have 56 years of high tech experience and 34 years dealing with Apple...  and a pretty good idea of the ritual dance among frenemies.

 

Good points....  ...of course neither of us was a fly on the wall, but will note I've also followed Apple since the Apple I.....

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

 

Perhaps the reason they haven't changed the marketing materials is because they have a better idea of the real size of the problem, rather than guesswork based on the rumblings on the internet. This report, and the accompanying hysteria you've been swept along by, is based on a handful of people getting lost. How many others are actually reaching their destination using Apple Maps? Six, seven, or a few more than that?

 

I take your point on the advertising though. I once bought a packet of crisps that promised that they would be the 'best crisps I'd ever tasted'. They weren't. The packet is now in the hands of my lawyers.

 

Yeah, of course someone will sue. Someone always does.

 

Having said that, given the number of foul-ups with GPS these days, you'd think most operators would have been sued out of existence by now. I suspect that for the sake of a few bucks, no one really wants to stand up in court and admit they were foolish enough to follow their SatNav into the Pacific Ocean.

 

Granted (about my just being another net "rumbler")....

 

PS:  When I'm in urban areas, like NYC, the lack of transit/walking directions makes the product purely useless (unless there's been an addition I haven't heard of).  And there's lots of Apple customers in big cities. 

PPS:  I think the very ferocity and number of posts makes the point that this was, is and remains a problem for AAPL.....
 

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post #405 of 498

AI! Why jragosta still around here?

 

He keeps missing the point and is definitely trolling on AI.  Maybe, he is Apple defending whatever Apple does.  He seems to blur every issues negative to Apple.

 

I thought he was banned here.

post #406 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjb View Post

AI! Why jragosta still around here?

He keeps missing the point and is definitely trolling on AI.  Maybe, he is Apple defending whatever Apple does.  He seems to blur every issues negative to Apple.

I thought he was banned here.

Please explain how I'm trolling. I'm pointing out the errors in the arguments being spewn by all the real trolls. That's not trolling.

And please explain what point I'm missing. The simple fact that vaelian, Asia, e_veritas, and the rest have not been able to refute any of my arguments is pretty strong evidence that I'm making good, sound logical arguments.

But why don't you start by explaining what you're doing here. What's the purpose of the personal attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_veritas View Post

Right, because you are so logically superior to all of us.... At least I accurately understand what a false dichotomy actually is.

Actually, you don't. See below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_veritas View Post

To be clear, you tried to present my 2 theories as a false dichotomy. This would imply that I setup the argument to only have 2 possible conclusions, with one being clearly outrageous, leaving the other as the apparent valid conclusion. The only problem to this is that BOTH were presented as valid theories, with the inference only being that one was a 'simpler conclusion' with 'all things being equal'. You even proceeded to repeat verbatim and justify what would have been the "clearly outrageous" opposition theory; which is why I'm at a complete loss for why you characterized my comment as you did.

Wrong. I teach Critical Thinking at the college level, but just to give you the benefit of the doubt, I checked my reference book to be sure. A false dichotomy is when you reduce a complex situation to a simple 'a or b' choice. Even if both choices are reasonable, the mere fact that you're pretending that there are only two choices makes it a false dichotomy. Or, if you want to look it up yourself, try this one: http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?FalseDichotomy:
Quote:
A false dichotomy is a dichotomy that is not jointly exhaustive (there are other alternatives), or that is not mutually exclusive (the alternatives overlap), or that is possibly neither.

Specifically, you claimed:
Quote:
As I see it, you can make the following 2 assumptions based upon these observations:

1. Apple iOS maps suck
2. Apple iOS maps are great;

In reality, Apple Maps could suck, it could be great, or it could be anything in between. By offering only the two choices (it must suck or it must be great), you are making the classic false dichotomy argument. You are ignoring the very real possibility that it could be somewhere in between those two extremes.
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post #407 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicwalmsley View Post

Parents in law were talking about their iPad. Love the screen, love the photos, love the portability. But having no end of troubles with Apple IDs, iCloud, internet settings (wi fi, mobile data, etc).

At one stage, father in law came out with "It just doesn't work" - he wasn't being ironic, he doesn't know the old tag lines from Jobs.

Apple know how to do the fruit, but they still struggle with the orchid.

+++ QFT
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post #408 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics View Post


PPS:  I think the very ferocity and number of posts makes the point that this was, is and remains a problem for AAPL.....

Silly me... I thought this thread was about debating and logic skills... I agree it is an AAPL problem -- the Apple solution is not good enough!
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 12/10/12 at 6:25pm
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post #409 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I'm a big fan of national parks and travel to one or more per year. The US was the first to officially establish one, Yellowstone, in 1872. I also enjoy my TomTom app on my iPhone. That said, I have never once thought to use an electronic map in the park. Perhaps it's different in Australia than in the US but they usually offer comprehensive maps near or at the entrance of the park.


Not really. They have gigantic areas of wilderness where you can't get wireless service. Even if you could, why would you rely on something with a battery as your only means of navigation? Analogue tools are still superior for such things. You can generally purchase printed maps locally, and a compass isn't a bad idea, especially if you aren't sticking to well marked trails. Not all trails there are well marked or maintained. A lot of the overland trails tend to be somewhat rough, and some of these parks can't even be entered by car.

 

Even then it's still a good idea to warn people not to count on Apple Maps as a sole source of reference. They may result in poor driving plans if they're that far off.

post #410 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Actually, you don't. See below.
Wrong. I teach Critical Thinking at the college level, but just to give you the benefit of the doubt, I checked my reference book to be sure. A false dichotomy is when you reduce a complex situation to a simple 'a or b' choice. Even if both choices are reasonable, the mere fact that you're pretending that there are only two choices makes it a false dichotomy. Or, if you want to look it up yourself, try this one: http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?FalseDichotomy:
Specifically, you claimed:
In reality, Apple Maps could suck, it could be great, or it could be anything in between. By offering only the two choices (it must suck or it must be great), you are making the classic false dichotomy argument. You are ignoring the very real possibility that it could be somewhere in between those two extremes.

 

Wow! You "teach Critical Thinking at the college level" is a complete joke based upon your reading comprehension skills.

 

First, you completely took my 2 assumptions out of context! Nowhere in my post was it implied that these were the only 2 options available. Instead, this was a comparison of 2 theories being debated in this thread as it related to the principle of Occam's razor. The main point of my post was that all things being equal, with both theories not being provable or disprovable, it makes sense to go with the simpler conclusion. I suppose I needed to have compared 3 options for me to not be using a 'false dichotomy'? Oh wait, then it would have been a false trichotomy!

 

Obviously, I must have presented every possible option to demonstrate the principle of Occam's razor, right? How about next time you want to go running around claiming "false dichotomy", you do so based upon the context of the ENTIRE post, and not a couple lines you snipped out.

post #411 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjb View Post

AI! Why jragosta still around here?

 

He keeps missing the point and is definitely trolling on AI.  Maybe, he is Apple defending whatever Apple does.  He seems to blur every issues negative to Apple.

 

I thought he was banned here.

 

No, to all of the above.

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post #412 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_veritas View Post

Wow! You "teach Critical Thinking at the college level" is a complete joke based upon your reading comprehension skills.

First, you completely took my 2 assumptions out of context! Nowhere in my post was it implied that these were the only 2 options available. Instead, this was a comparison of 2 theories being debated in this thread as it related to the principle of Occam's razor. The main point of my post was that all things being equal, with both theories not being provable or disprovable, it makes sense to go with the simpler conclusion. I suppose I needed to have compared 3 options for me to not be using a 'false dichotomy'? Oh wait, then it would have been a false trichotomy!

Obviously, I must have presented every possible option to demonstrate the principle of Occam's razor, right? How about next time you want to go running around claiming "false dichotomy", you do so based upon the context of the ENTIRE post, and not a couple lines you snipped out.

What part of your statement "As I see it, you can make the following 2 assumptions based upon these observations" do you not understand? It says that one can make 2 assumptions. The rest of the post (including the Occam's Razor comment) reinforce that. You were presenting the two options as if they were the only options. Without that assumption, the entire Occam's razor comment would be meaningless (that is, if there were three or more options, then choosing from only two of them would be foolish).

I love it when the trolls like you are proven wrong and you double down on your stupid comments.
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post #413 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post


Not really. They have gigantic areas of wilderness where you can't get wireless service. Even if you could, why would you rely on something with a battery as your only means of navigation? Analogue tools are still superior for such things. You can generally purchase printed maps locally, and a compass isn't a bad idea, especially if you aren't sticking to well marked trails. Not all trails there are well marked or maintained. A lot of the overland trails tend to be somewhat rough, and some of these parks can't even be entered by car.

Even then it's still a good idea to warn people not to count on Apple Maps as a sole source of reference. They may result in poor driving plans if they're that far off.

No, it's not. When you specify a single vendor as being a problem, there's an implication that the others are OK. So mindless people who go wandering in the wilderness with no food, no water, no maps, and no intelligence will get lost with someone else's GPS next time.

The proper response would have been to warn them that relying on GPS was foolish and that people should carry emergency supplies in their car when driving in remote locations and not to leave the car except in an emergency.
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post #414 of 498
Just for kicks:


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post #415 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I'm a big fan of national parks and travel to one or more per year. The US was the first to officially establish one, Yellowstone, in 1872. I also enjoy my TomTom app on my iPhone. That said, I have never once thought to use an electronic map in the park. Perhaps it's different in Australia than in the US but they usually offer comprehensive maps near or at the entrance of the park.


Not really. They have gigantic areas of wilderness where you can't get wireless service. Even if you could, why would you rely on something with a battery as your only means of navigation? Analogue tools are still superior for such things. You can generally purchase printed maps locally, and a compass isn't a bad idea, especially if you aren't sticking to well marked trails. Not all trails there are well marked or maintained. A lot of the overland trails tend to be somewhat rough, and some of these parks can't even be entered by car.

 

Even then it's still a good idea to warn people not to count on Apple Maps as a sole source of reference. They may result in poor driving plans if they're that far off.

 

I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks. A GPS with cached maps is the tool of choice in most situations, with a map and compass as backup. Electrical power is not generally an issue in a vehicle.

post #416 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks. A GPS with cached maps is the tool of choice in most situations, with a map and compass as backup. Electrical power is not generally an issue in a vehicle.

While I agree with you, note that these people left their vehicles and wandered around for 24 hours. With 24 hours of continually checking your maps, their phone battery would have been dead.

I'm still convinced it was a setup.

For months, there were no reported problems. Then, all at once, we have "a number of people" in 2 months who:
1. Relied on Apple Maps to get them to the location.
2. Entered the city name but not the address (I can't remember the last time I did that. I rarely just want to go to a city, I want to go to a specific place in the city)
3. They didn't check in advance to see if the maps were correct.
4. They didn't ever even consider that they were being sent through a remote park location
5. They got out of their vehicles and wandered around
6. They didn't have water, food, or any other supplies

It's just far too much of a coincidence for this to be plausible.
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post #417 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post


And I demonstrated to be open to that possibility. If you don't think I refuted everything, please bring it up for further discussion and clarification.

 

Well, you were, using your own rules of argument, universally and permanently refuted, so we're done with you.

post #418 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks. A GPS with cached maps is the tool of choice in most situations, with a map and compass as backup. Electrical power is not generally an issue in a vehicle.

While I agree with you, note that these people left their vehicles and wandered around for 24 hours. With 24 hours of continually checking your maps, their phone battery would have been dead.

I'm still convinced it was a setup.

For months, there were no reported problems. Then, all at once, we have "a number of people" in 2 months who:
1. Relied on Apple Maps to get them to the location.
2. Entered the city name but not the address (I can't remember the last time I did that. I rarely just want to go to a city, I want to go to a specific place in the city)
3. They didn't check in advance to see if the maps were correct.
4. They didn't ever even consider that they were being sent through a remote park location
5. They got out of their vehicles and wandered around
6. They didn't have water, food, or any other supplies

It's just far too much of a coincidence for this to be plausible.

 

Some of them apparently left their vehicles to look for cell phone reception, after somehow getting stranded, but it's not very clear how they managed to get stranded. The location that iOS Maps marked as the center of Mildura LGA is less than 30 miles from the nearest main road, and it should have been simple to reverse navigation. If they were just wandering around then they cannot have been checking their maps.

 

I agree that it looks a bit fishy, but it would risk serious legal trouble to manufacture such events. I'm inclined to think that the rash of mishaps was just coincidental. I've seen similar geographic clusters of such situations for no apparent reason and with no connection. While I cannot begin to imagine the lack of situational awareness necessary to keep driving on unmarked and increasingly poor backcountry roads in a wilderness environment without deciding to return to a main road, I have seen it happen a number of times.

post #419 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks.

 

You should always ship a sextant and a good chronometer as a backup to GPS anyway.

post #420 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks.

 

You should always ship a sextant and a good chronometer as a backup to GPS anyway.

 

Don't leave home without them.

post #421 of 498
...Here be dragons...
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post #422 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


...Here be dragons...

 

I can imagine Siri warning about that.

post #423 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexN View Post

...Talk about lack of bushcraft.

"Bushcraft" ? As an American, this is a foreign but altogether awesome concept
post #424 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

Nope, it wasn't. The claims of accuracy were part of someone else's argument which relevance was never fully explained

 

I know I said we were done with you, and we are, but I really had a good laugh when I read this. Did you happen to notice the title of the article this forum thread is attached to? 

 

 

Inaccurate Apple Maps directions causes 'life threatening issue' for travelers, says Australian...

And you need someone to explain to you the relevance of accuracy to this discussion? lol.gif

 

(I hate the emoticons, I really do, but I just can't find words to adequately express the sentiment.)

post #425 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexN View Post

...Talk about lack of bushcraft.

"Bushcraft" ? As an American, this is a foreign but altogether awesome concept

I was taught that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...

But, a push in the bush I don't understand...
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post #426 of 498
Looks like the real blame might be Victoria if not Australian govt. Not only do they not require road signs in rural areas and haven't pushed for better cell service but apparently their own authoritative source for city and town information, which might have been Apples source has two Mildura listings

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/10/apple_maps_ghost_mildura/
post #427 of 498

More than 2 months prior to today's debacle, people were already saying apple maps is inferior to what it replaced.

 

 

 

Sunday, September 30, 2012, 02:06 pm

Revised Apple website no longer calls iOS 6 Maps most 'powerful'

In the wake of criticism over its Maps application for iOS 6, Apple has revised its website to no longer refer to the software as the most "powerful mapping service ever."

 

"....Apple's new mapping solution is generally seen as inferior to the product it replaced, which was powered by Google Maps."

 

http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/30/revised-apple-website-no-longer-calls-ios-6-maps-most-powerful

 

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post #428 of 498
OK... It's time...

Nazi, Hitler...
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post #429 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


What part of your statement "As I see it, you can make the following 2 assumptions based upon these observations" do you not understand? It says that one can make 2 assumptions. The rest of the post (including the Occam's Razor comment) reinforce that. You were presenting the two options as if they were the only options. Without that assumption, the entire Occam's razor comment would be meaningless (that is, if there were three or more options, then choosing from only two of them would be foolish).
I love it when the trolls like you are proven wrong and you double down on your stupid comments.

 

What part of me setting up 2 scenarios for comparison do you not understand? Since when did "you can make the following 2 assumptions" equate "you can ONLY make the following 2 assumptions". I have already stated that this was never implied, it was never explicitly made, yet you still keep asserting it. Why?

 

Regarding the troll comment, I'm afraid I'm not the one who has already been called that in this thread alone. Considering your persistent provoking and inflammatory remarks, I would have to say I concur with others that YOU are indeed the troll in the room tonight...

post #430 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

As an Australian, I'd like to take the opportunity to say:

 

Hey, Dumbasses!

 

Research trips more thoroughly using more than a single source of information that isn't the first version of a type of technology!

 

1000

 

 


Or buy Android, which has a real mapping system. Your argument is that if iPhone isn't as good as the other systems, then people should research their trips better? What a bad argument.

 

Also, I agree with the fact people _should_ have researched their trips, but you can't fail them for trusting a $700+ piece of hardware that's advertised as "top of the line"...


Edited by lightknight - 12/11/12 at 12:49am

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post #431 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Looks like the real blame might be Victoria if not Australian govt. Not only do they not require road signs in rural areas and haven't pushed for better cell service but apparently their own authoritative source for city and town information, which might have been Apples source has two Mildura listings
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/10/apple_maps_ghost_mildura/


Well, now that's interesting, very nice point they have here...

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post #432 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


No, it's not. When you specify a single vendor as being a problem, there's an implication that the others are OK. So mindless people who go wandering in the wilderness with no food, no water, no maps, and no intelligence will get lost with someone else's GPS next time.
The proper response would have been to warn them that relying on GPS was foolish and that people should carry emergency supplies in their car when driving in remote locations and not to leave the car except in an emergency.


That's very exact. However, the fact that Google spent billions prooofing their data with cars (while advertising the service as a beta) while Apple has pushed Apple Maps as a selling point for their devices and relies on the paying users to correct them still in an Apple failure.

 

The fact that ordinary users don't have a clue about the inaccuracy of GPS and the basic security measures involved in surviving zombies invasions the wilderness also can be pointed to advertisement. Apple did not quite advertise their system as "sorry, could be completely inaccurate", and even if they might have left some small-type lettering under videos, they also share a responsibility there.
 

I don't mean I have a solution, I just say that Appple hasn't quite done their best, and they know it.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

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post #433 of 498
At least Apple fixed the problem in a few days. There is still inaccuracies in Google Maps years later.
post #434 of 498

You all people should get a life an stop talking about the same stuff all the time. Don't you have better things to do? Is it really worth having 11 pages to say nothing? This thread is pointless.

post #435 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

As an Australian, I'd like to take the opportunity to say: Hey, Dumbasses!, make sure you thoroughly test your shit before releasing it.  You never know, someone might be stupid enough to use it.

Thanks for that post; easiest way to enlarge my blocklist with the thumbs-up you got with this post.
"See her this weekend. You hit it off, come Turkey Day, maybe you can stuff her."
- Roger Sterling
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"See her this weekend. You hit it off, come Turkey Day, maybe you can stuff her."
- Roger Sterling
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post #436 of 498

It's seems a fairly basic programming error: if your source maps contain both city names and government jurisdictional boundaries, you must differentiate between them when loading them to the database.

post #437 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

While I agree with you, note that these people left their vehicles and wandered around for 24 hours. With 24 hours of continually checking your maps, their phone battery would have been dead.
I'm still convinced it was a setup.
For months, there were no reported problems. Then, all at once, we have "a number of people" in 2 months who:
1. Relied on Apple Maps to get them to the location.
2. Entered the city name but not the address (I can't remember the last time I did that. I rarely just want to go to a city, I want to go to a specific place in the city)
3. They didn't check in advance to see if the maps were correct.
4. They didn't ever even consider that they were being sent through a remote park location
5. They got out of their vehicles and wandered around
6. They didn't have water, food, or any other supplies
It's just far too much of a coincidence for this to be plausible.

1. We're heading into holiday season here. This is not a week over Christmas. It's our July holiday period.
2. Maybe the authorities were waiting for more than a single incident. don't want to be crying wolf, now.
3. National parks here don't have picket fences around them and it's typical for them to have thoroughfares.
4. Although Australia is a big place you can drive across Victoria in the better part of a day. You're not going to carry around a gallon of water and weeks supply of twinkies for a day trip.
5. I think you're wearing a tin foil hat on this one.

It's shitty data. That's all there is to say about it. Oh, and that Apple is using that shitty data. And we can whine about it because this native app replaced the other native app which for me was perfectly serviceable. I haven't used maps in months, not since I spent an hour driving around in circles in the nations capital because there was no mapping data for an outlying suburb. Oh that, and all the business names in the city centre are a jumble of misplaced pins, not to mention the Starbucks, which while accurately placed, had shut years ago.
post #438 of 498
When I got up this morning I found that this thread had bloated somewhat alarming overnight (overnight in Oz, that is).

This looked a lot like a sudden influx of trolls, but having paged through the subsequent 10 pages I notice that it's mostly the regular suspects 1wink.gif. Having had busier day than usual I didn't have time to look at the thread until this evening, and in the meantime I started mangling an old nursery rhyme to fit my preconception of things. The situation isn't quite as bad as I thought, although there is some apparent trolling, so here's the adaptation of that nursery rhyme for you all:

Trolls and shills come out to play
The Moon is shining as bright as Day
Leave your supper and leave your sleep
And come join your play fellows chasing the sheep

Come with a whoop and come with a call
And come with a cudgel or not at all...


(Girls and Boys Come Out to Play, Trad.)

I didn't do the whole thing as that's all that I can remember, although the Wikipedia has the whole thing.

I've noticed that there has been a lot of holier-then-thou tub-thumping when it comes to criticising Maps especially (the Apple Discussion Forums are a case in point) - I can't avoid the criticism having done quite a bit of that myself, but I am very slowly learning not do do such things. Righteous indignation is all very well, but one should ponder about one's own behaviour before hefting a half-brick.

Don't worry, I'll crawl back under my rock soon enough 1wink.gif.

I made a point in another thread the other day that the original Apple web-page for iOS6 said that the Maps app "might just be the most beautiful, powerful maps app ever" - it didn't say that it was (even it it might have rather unfortunately suggested that it was). A bit of humility or honesty on Apple's part at the time of Scott Forstall's demonstration or at the release might have made things a lot smoother.

I don't really have much more to say that is constructive, but I will add that Apple's maps for some strange reason seems to be almost perfectly accurate in the neck o' the woods of Sydney that I infest.
post #439 of 498

Let's be honest, Mildura has a local population of 30,000,
I'd be very surprised if Apple hasn't already received a dozens of complaints about the obvious location problem. I think the true thing to focus on, is why is it taking Apple so long to fix these very obvious problems? 

I reported my towns lack of location marker - this was when iOS was released... And still it hasn't been fixed... Also, many regional towns around me, don't exist by looking at the map... What's up with that? 

post #440 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_veritas View Post

What part of me setting up 2 scenarios for comparison do you not understand? Since when did "you can make the following 2 assumptions" equate "you can ONLY make the following 2 assumptions". I have already stated that this was never implied, it was never explicitly made, yet you still keep asserting it. Why?

You took a complex issue and reduced it to two options. You specifically stated that someone had to choose from those two options and then used Occam's razor to select one of the options. Logically, that's invalid when there are three or more options actually available.

Yes, you COULD HAVE presented a third or fourth option (in which case it would not have been a false dichotomy argument), but you didn't. So don't pretend that the fact that you had other options makes this any less of a false dichotomy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_veritas View Post

Regarding the troll comment, I'm afraid I'm not the one who has already been called that in this thread alone. Considering your persistent provoking and inflammatory remarks, I would have to say I concur with others that YOU are indeed the troll in the room tonight...

Only if you've redefined troll as someone who consistently and regularly points out all the flaws in your logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


That's very exact. However, the fact that Google spent billions prooofing their data with cars (while advertising the service as a beta) while Apple has pushed Apple Maps as a selling point for their devices and relies on the paying users to correct them still in an Apple failure.

The fact that ordinary users don't have a clue about the inaccuracy of GPS and the basic security measures involved in surviving zombies invasions the wilderness also can be pointed to advertisement. Apple did not quite advertise their system as "sorry, could be completely inaccurate", and even if they might have left some small-type lettering under videos, they also share a responsibility there.

I don't mean I have a solution, I just say that Appple hasn't quite done their best, and they know it.

So any device that's imperfect is a failure. Got it.

Besides, you're completely ignoring the fact that there are two listings for 'Mildura' - the province and the city. When you simply enter 'Mildura', it sends you to the center of the province. When you enter a street address, it takes you to the correct street address. If you enter 'Mildura city', it takes you to locations inside the city.

Not clear why it's Apple's fault that Australia named both the city and the province the same. How is Maps supposed to know which one you want?
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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