Obviously, you don't have a clue about logic.

I was not arguing for either position. I was simply pointing out the flaws in his argument. Destroying someone else's argument does not mean that I'm necessarily taking the other side.

Nope, I did not make any quality claims in this thread. Feel free to prove me wrong with a quote, though.


You refuse to explain why that's relevant.


I claim that I haven't.


I didn't lose an argument; you failed to explain why providing the evidence you request is relevant.


Everything? You may refer back to the third page in the thread where people were questioning the reason for the double standard, which is what I replied to. If you joined the debate without knowing what it was about, that's your problem, not mine.


Nope, it wasn't. The claims of accuracy were part of someone else's argument which relevance was never fully explained.


I can read door numbers in Street View. Can you do the same in FlyBy?


Irrelevant, nobody expects Google to be better since it didn't replace anything.


How?

Once again, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm simply showing that you haven't proven your assertion.

Until you learn the difference, you have no business even discussing this.

 

Right, because you are so logically superior to all of us.... At least I accurately understand what a false dichotomy actually is.

 

To be clear, you tried to present my 2 theories as a false dichotomy. This would imply that I setup the argument to only have 2 possible conclusions, with one being clearly outrageous, leaving the other as the apparent valid conclusion. The only problem to this is that BOTH were presented as valid theories, with the inference only being that one was a 'simpler conclusion' with 'all things being equal'. You even proceeded to repeat verbatim and justify what would have been the "clearly outrageous" opposition theory; which is why I'm at a complete loss for why you characterized my comment as you did.

 

Good points....  ...of course neither of us was a fly on the wall, but will note I've also followed Apple since the Apple I.....

 

 

Granted (about my just being another net "rumbler")....

 

PS:  When I'm in urban areas, like NYC, the lack of transit/walking directions makes the product purely useless (unless there's been an addition I haven't heard of).  And there's lots of Apple customers in big cities. 

PPS:  I think the very ferocity and number of posts makes the point that this was, is and remains a problem for AAPL.....
 

AI! Why jragosta still around here?

 

He keeps missing the point and is definitely trolling on AI.  Maybe, he is Apple defending whatever Apple does.  He seems to blur every issues negative to Apple.

 

I thought he was banned here.

Please explain how I'm trolling. I'm pointing out the errors in the arguments being spewn by all the real trolls. That's not trolling.

And please explain what point I'm missing. The simple fact that vaelian, Asia, e_veritas, and the rest have not been able to refute any of my arguments is pretty strong evidence that I'm making good, sound logical arguments.

But why don't you start by explaining what you're doing here. What's the purpose of the personal attack?


Actually, you don't. See below.

Wrong. I teach Critical Thinking at the college level, but just to give you the benefit of the doubt, I checked my reference book to be sure. A false dichotomy is when you reduce a complex situation to a simple 'a or b' choice. Even if both choices are reasonable, the mere fact that you're pretending that there are only two choices makes it a false dichotomy. Or, if you want to look it up yourself, try this one: http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?FalseDichotomy:
Specifically, you claimed:
In reality, Apple Maps could suck, it could be great, or it could be anything in between. By offering only the two choices (it must suck or it must be great), you are making the classic false dichotomy argument. You are ignoring the very real possibility that it could be somewhere in between those two extremes.

+++ QFT

Silly me... I thought this thread was about debating and logic skills... I agree it is an AAPL problem -- the Apple solution is not good enough!
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 12/10/12 at 6:25pm

Not really. They have gigantic areas of wilderness where you can't get wireless service. Even if you could, why would you rely on something with a battery as your only means of navigation? Analogue tools are still superior for such things. You can generally purchase printed maps locally, and a compass isn't a bad idea, especially if you aren't sticking to well marked trails. Not all trails there are well marked or maintained. A lot of the overland trails tend to be somewhat rough, and some of these parks can't even be entered by car.

 

Even then it's still a good idea to warn people not to count on Apple Maps as a sole source of reference. They may result in poor driving plans if they're that far off.

 

Wow! You "teach Critical Thinking at the college level" is a complete joke based upon your reading comprehension skills.

 

First, you completely took my 2 assumptions out of context! Nowhere in my post was it implied that these were the only 2 options available. Instead, this was a comparison of 2 theories being debated in this thread as it related to the principle of Occam's razor. The main point of my post was that all things being equal, with both theories not being provable or disprovable, it makes sense to go with the simpler conclusion. I suppose I needed to have compared 3 options for me to not be using a 'false dichotomy'? Oh wait, then it would have been a false trichotomy!

 

Obviously, I must have presented every possible option to demonstrate the principle of Occam's razor, right? How about next time you want to go running around claiming "false dichotomy", you do so based upon the context of the ENTIRE post, and not a couple lines you snipped out.

 

No, to all of the above.

What part of your statement "As I see it, you can make the following 2 assumptions based upon these observations" do you not understand? It says that one can make 2 assumptions. The rest of the post (including the Occam's Razor comment) reinforce that. You were presenting the two options as if they were the only options. Without that assumption, the entire Occam's razor comment would be meaningless (that is, if there were three or more options, then choosing from only two of them would be foolish).

I love it when the trolls like you are proven wrong and you double down on your stupid comments.

No, it's not. When you specify a single vendor as being a problem, there's an implication that the others are OK. So mindless people who go wandering in the wilderness with no food, no water, no maps, and no intelligence will get lost with someone else's GPS next time.

The proper response would have been to warn them that relying on GPS was foolish and that people should carry emergency supplies in their car when driving in remote locations and not to leave the car except in an emergency.

Just for kicks:

 

I'd have to disagree with the statement that analogue tools are better. Even with a map and a compass, self-location is not trivial, and not accurate in the absence of good visibility and distinctive landmarks. A GPS with cached maps is the tool of choice in most situations, with a map and compass as backup. Electrical power is not generally an issue in a vehicle.

While I agree with you, note that these people left their vehicles and wandered around for 24 hours. With 24 hours of continually checking your maps, their phone battery would have been dead.

I'm still convinced it was a setup.

For months, there were no reported problems. Then, all at once, we have "a number of people" in 2 months who:
1. Relied on Apple Maps to get them to the location.
2. Entered the city name but not the address (I can't remember the last time I did that. I rarely just want to go to a city, I want to go to a specific place in the city)
3. They didn't check in advance to see if the maps were correct.
4. They didn't ever even consider that they were being sent through a remote park location
5. They got out of their vehicles and wandered around
6. They didn't have water, food, or any other supplies

It's just far too much of a coincidence for this to be plausible.

 

Well, you were, using your own rules of argument, universally and permanently refuted, so we're done with you.

 

Some of them apparently left their vehicles to look for cell phone reception, after somehow getting stranded, but it's not very clear how they managed to get stranded. The location that iOS Maps marked as the center of Mildura LGA is less than 30 miles from the nearest main road, and it should have been simple to reverse navigation. If they were just wandering around then they cannot have been checking their maps.

 

I agree that it looks a bit fishy, but it would risk serious legal trouble to manufacture such events. I'm inclined to think that the rash of mishaps was just coincidental. I've seen similar geographic clusters of such situations for no apparent reason and with no connection. While I cannot begin to imagine the lack of situational awareness necessary to keep driving on unmarked and increasingly poor backcountry roads in a wilderness environment without deciding to return to a main road, I have seen it happen a number of times.

 

You should always ship a sextant and a good chronometer as a backup to GPS anyway.

 

Don't leave home without them.

...Here be dragons...

 

I can imagine Siri warning about that.

"Bushcraft" ? As an American, this is a foreign but altogether awesome concept

 

I know I said we were done with you, and we are, but I really had a good laugh when I read this. Did you happen to notice the title of the article this forum thread is attached to? 

 

 

Inaccurate Apple Maps directions causes 'life threatening issue' for travelers, says Australian...

And you need someone to explain to you the relevance of accuracy to this discussion? 

 

(I hate the emoticons, I really do, but I just can't find words to adequately express the sentiment.)

I was taught that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...

But, a push in the bush I don't understand...

Looks like the real blame might be Victoria if not Australian govt. Not only do they not require road signs in rural areas and haven't pushed for better cell service but apparently their own authoritative source for city and town information, which might have been Apples source has two Mildura listings

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/10/apple_maps_ghost_mildura/

More than 2 months prior to today's debacle, people were already saying apple maps is inferior to what it replaced.

 

 

 

Sunday, September 30, 2012, 02:06 pm

OK... It's time...

Nazi, Hitler...

 

What part of me setting up 2 scenarios for comparison do you not understand? Since when did "you can make the following 2 assumptions" equate "you can ONLY make the following 2 assumptions". I have already stated that this was never implied, it was never explicitly made, yet you still keep asserting it. Why?

 

Regarding the troll comment, I'm afraid I'm not the one who has already been called that in this thread alone. Considering your persistent provoking and inflammatory remarks, I would have to say I concur with others that YOU are indeed the troll in the room tonight...

Or buy Android, which has a real mapping system. Your argument is that if iPhone isn't as good as the other systems, then people should research their trips better? What a bad argument.

 

Also, I agree with the fact people _should_ have researched their trips, but you can't fail them for trusting a $700+ piece of hardware that's advertised as "top of the line"...

Edited by lightknight - 12/11/12 at 12:49am

Well, now that's interesting, very nice point they have here...

That's very exact. However, the fact that Google spent billions prooofing their data with cars (while advertising the service as a beta) while Apple has pushed Apple Maps as a selling point for their devices and relies on the paying users to correct them still in an Apple failure.

 

The fact that ordinary users don't have a clue about the inaccuracy of GPS and the basic security measures involved in surviving zombies invasions the wilderness also can be pointed to advertisement. Apple did not quite advertise their system as "sorry, could be completely inaccurate", and even if they might have left some small-type lettering under videos, they also share a responsibility there.
 

I don't mean I have a solution, I just say that Appple hasn't quite done their best, and they know it.

At least Apple fixed the problem in a few days. There is still inaccuracies in Google Maps years later.

You all people should get a life an stop talking about the same stuff all the time. Don't you have better things to do? Is it really worth having 11 pages to say nothing? This thread is pointless.

Thanks for that post; easiest way to enlarge my blocklist with the thumbs-up you got with this post.

It's seems a fairly basic programming error: if your source maps contain both city names and government jurisdictional boundaries, you must differentiate between them when loading them to the database.

1. We're heading into holiday season here. This is not a week over Christmas. It's our July holiday period.
2. Maybe the authorities were waiting for more than a single incident. don't want to be crying wolf, now.
3. National parks here don't have picket fences around them and it's typical for them to have thoroughfares.
4. Although Australia is a big place you can drive across Victoria in the better part of a day. You're not going to carry around a gallon of water and weeks supply of twinkies for a day trip.
5. I think you're wearing a tin foil hat on this one.

It's shitty data. That's all there is to say about it. Oh, and that Apple is using that shitty data. And we can whine about it because this native app replaced the other native app which for me was perfectly serviceable. I haven't used maps in months, not since I spent an hour driving around in circles in the nations capital because there was no mapping data for an outlying suburb. Oh that, and all the business names in the city centre are a jumble of misplaced pins, not to mention the Starbucks, which while accurately placed, had shut years ago.

When I got up this morning I found that this thread had bloated somewhat alarming overnight (overnight in Oz, that is).

This looked a lot like a sudden influx of trolls, but having paged through the subsequent 10 pages I notice that it's mostly the regular suspects . Having had busier day than usual I didn't have time to look at the thread until this evening, and in the meantime I started mangling an old nursery rhyme to fit my preconception of things. The situation isn't quite as bad as I thought, although there is some apparent trolling, so here's the adaptation of that nursery rhyme for you all:

Trolls and shills come out to play
The Moon is shining as bright as Day
Leave your supper and leave your sleep
And come join your play fellows chasing the sheep

Come with a whoop and come with a call
And come with a cudgel or not at all...

(Girls and Boys Come Out to Play, Trad.)

I didn't do the whole thing as that's all that I can remember, although the Wikipedia has the whole thing.

I've noticed that there has been a lot of holier-then-thou tub-thumping when it comes to criticising Maps especially (the Apple Discussion Forums are a case in point) - I can't avoid the criticism having done quite a bit of that myself, but I am very slowly learning not do do such things. Righteous indignation is all very well, but one should ponder about one's own behaviour before hefting a half-brick.

Don't worry, I'll crawl back under my rock soon enough .

I made a point in another thread the other day that the original Apple web-page for iOS6 said that the Maps app "might just be the most beautiful, powerful maps app ever" - it didn't say that it was (even it it might have rather unfortunately suggested that it was). A bit of humility or honesty on Apple's part at the time of Scott Forstall's demonstration or at the release might have made things a lot smoother.

I don't really have much more to say that is constructive, but I will add that Apple's maps for some strange reason seems to be almost perfectly accurate in the neck o' the woods of Sydney that I infest.

Let's be honest, Mildura has a local population of 30,000,
I'd be very surprised if Apple hasn't already received a dozens of complaints about the obvious location problem. I think the true thing to focus on, is why is it taking Apple so long to fix these very obvious problems? 

I reported my towns lack of location marker - this was when iOS was released... And still it hasn't been fixed... Also, many regional towns around me, don't exist by looking at the map... What's up with that?