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post #481 of 498
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

This is what the Apple fanboys don't get; people complain about Apple Maps because Apple replaced the existing Google Maps app with it, therefore Apple is fully deserving of all the bad press they've been receiving.

Or maybe they don't get why people would ever think this, given that users can still get to Google Maps, have the same features, and are therefore not deserving of the bad press.

Or maybe this has already been posted and I have already refuted it twice in this thread... For starters it doesn't even make sense to consider Google Maps on the web because the service already existed before Apple Maps, so nothing was gained or lost there. Secondly, Google Maps on the web is not tightly integrated with iOS like the app was, and on top of that has issues such as the maps not rotating, the cursor requiring a reliable network connection to move (otherwise it jumps around), the lack of Street View, and the inability to save dropped pins.
post #482 of 498
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post
…nothing was… …lost… 

 

Isn't this the crux of your entire argument? And yet it's still there.

 

Contest that if you will, but what you can't is the fact that things have been gained. maps.google.com is more functional than ever before, and it's a fine supplement to Apple Maps. 

 

You've not lost anything.


Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post
…the lack of Street View…
 

Hmm…

post #483 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Yes, but it's not as simple as you suggest. The fundamental problem is that the region and the city have the same name. When you type 'Mildura', it assumes you want the region and sends you to the middle of the region. If you type 'Mildura city', it sends you to the city. If you type a street address, it takes you to the street address.
For something familiar to Americans, look up cities which have their state names:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_states_have_a_city_with_the_same_name
I tried 'Utah' and 'Delaware'. In both cases, the word took me to the middle of the state, NOT the city. Apparently, when given the choice between a city and a state with the same name, Maps chooses the state - which is what it did in Mildura, too. I don't think that's unreasonable behavior.
There is one exception, though: New York. When you simply enter 'New York', it takes you to the city. Presumably, they chose to override the standard 'select the state rather than the city when both have the same name' rule because of the size and population of New York City.
It's not at all clear that it's an error - just confusion caused by the use of a city and a region with the same name.

You really need to stop generalising America to the rest of the world. In Australia, we have shires and towns. In this instance, towns are called towns, shires are called shires. The town is called Mildura, the shire is called 'The Rural City of Mildura' - very different. Some shires have similar names, others don't. 

 

Stop acting like you're an Australian expert, you look like a fool. You keep saying things that simply is not true for Australia. And you keep making justifications that are inaccurate...

More importantly, as I said before (which you completely ignored) why did this take so long to fix? Why is Apple so ridiculously slow at fixing things? 

If you actually jump on your Apple Maps, and type in "Seymour, Mooroopna, Tallarook, Craigieburn, Broadmeadows, Kyabram, Tatura, Rushworth, Congupna, Cobram" and there are COUNTLESS more... they don't have location markers on the map. If you were to randomly scroll over The state of Victoria, you'd think it was largely uninhabited. Yet, it's a thriving state which is the more densely populated state in Australia. Also, when typing in these locations, many of locations Apple use are inaccurate. 

In particular, type in Rushworth, it'll take to you to the middle of Waranga Basin, yep, apparently this town is in a lake? And guess what genius? The shire for this town is called Campaspe? So based on speculation, you'd be wrong.

Apple have made really bad Maps in Australia, especially compared to maps in iOS5.

The are so bad for regional users, they're practically unusable. 

 
 

post #484 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

 

No, the number of posts here represent a relatively small number of people who are not what you'd call typical Apple consumers - they're mostly techies or Android/Google fans. 

 

Incidentally, it turns out that the problem was caused by a POI problem. Apple was using data provided by the Australian Gazetteer, the official go-to guide for this type of information. Yes, the dataset came from the state of Victoria itself. Which brings me back to my original point: the problem is the data, not the app, and this will not be discovered until it is actually used. If the state of Victoria can't provide correct geographical data then that won't be fixed by 'testing' Map applications inside a bunker.

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/10/apple_maps_ghost_mildura/

We've heard it said many times before, why would this guy drive into the wilderness with one lot of mapping information? Why wouldn't he check more than one source? The same should hold true for Apple! Why didn't they check other mapping providers?

But in all honesty, I don't think this was the reason the mapping information was incorrect, because there are so many other towns in the wrong place.

Also, the dataset came from the Australian Government (if this information is indeed true), not the state of Victoria.

And the dataset is accurate, because the location marker is simply stating the Shire name, which is the 'Rural City of Mildura'. So realistically, Apple made an assumption that the Rural City of Mildura was a town, not a Shire.
 

post #485 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by werdnanotroh View Post

You really need to stop generalising America to the rest of the world. In Australia, we have shires and towns. In this instance, towns are called towns, shires are called shires. The town is called Mildura, the shire is called 'The Rural City of Mildura' - very different. Some shires have similar names, others don't. 

Stop acting like you're an Australian expert, you look like a fool. You keep saying things that simply is not true for Australia. And you keep making justifications that are inaccurate...

Maybe you should settle down and read what I wrote before launching into your nasty comments. I never professed to be an expert for Australia. Nor does your post indicate that anything I said was wrong.

Call them shires, towns, villages, metropolises, empires, or sietches. It doesn't matter. The point is that when a larger area and a smaller area have the same name, and the user enters only the name (without being more specific), Apple Maps shows the center of the larger area. My example was something that would be recognizable to Americans - if you enter 'Utah', it moves you to the center of the state, even though there's a city called 'Utah'. If you enter 'Delaware', it shows you the center of the state, even though there's a Delaware City.

So it doesn't matter whether you call it a town, shire, or anything else. Apple's Map is doing the same thing for Mildura that it does for locations in the US (other than New York for some reason). When you type simply 'Mildura', it assumes you want the larger area (province, town, state, whatever). When you type 'Mildura City', it gives you the location of what most people refer to as a town or village or city and which you want to call a shire or "the rural city of Mildura".

Nothing I posted was inaccurate, nor did anything I posted claim to make me an expert. I was discussing the general principle, not the specific names you choose to call geographic subdivisions.
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post #486 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Maybe you should settle down and read what I wrote before launching into your nasty comments. I never professed to be an expert for Australia. Nor does your post indicate that anything I said was wrong.
Call them shires, towns, villages, metropolises, empires, or sietches. It doesn't matter. The point is that when a larger area and a smaller area have the same name, and the user enters only the name (without being more specific), Apple Maps shows the center of the larger area. My example was something that would be recognizable to Americans - if you enter 'Utah', it moves you to the center of the state, even though there's a city called 'Utah'. If you enter 'Delaware', it shows you the center of the state, even though there's a Delaware City.
So it doesn't matter whether you call it a town, shire, or anything else. Apple's Map is doing the same thing for Mildura that it does for locations in the US (other than New York for some reason). When you type simply 'Mildura', it assumes you want the larger area (province, town, state, whatever). When you type 'Mildura City', it gives you the location of what most people refer to as a town or village or city and which you want to call a shire or "the rural city of Mildura".
Nothing I posted was inaccurate, nor did anything I posted claim to make me an expert. I was discussing the general principle, not the specific names you choose to call geographic subdivisions.

Don't get caught up on semantics, mate.

You are wrong though, and you are ignorant. I explained to you very clearly that Midura is the town, the 'Rural City of Mildura' is the shire. Based on your logic, typing in Mildura City should give you Shire, since that's what it's called. They are different names.

Gotta love how you ignored the rest of the post, which clearly illustrates Apple's incompetency in relation to mapping, in Regional Australia Areas. 

"As I previous stated: In particular, type in Rushworth, it'll take to you to the middle of Waranga Basin, yep, apparently this town is in a lake? And guess what genius? The shire for this town is called Campaspe? So based on speculation, you'd be wrong."

 

I stand by this, you are making the assumption that 'Mildura' and 'Rural City of Mildura' are the same thing.

 

You can tell me all the princples you want, that's fantastic, but they don't work downunder, because our shires and towns have different names. 

post #487 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

…nothing was… …lost… 

Isn't this the crux of your entire argument? And yet it's still there.

Nope, that's quoting out of context, a fallacy, which also tells me that you are trolling, so all I'll do from this point forward will be to nitpick on the logic of your posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Contest that if you will, but what you can't is the fact that things have been gained. maps.google.com is more functional than ever before, and it's a fine supplement to Apple Maps.

That point actually reinforces my argument, so thanks. Google giving me back things that Apple took from me justifies the double standard against Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You've not lost anything.

Only because I have not upgraded yet. Had I upgraded, I would actually have lost the native and tightly integrated Google Maps app. Of course, this has already been mentioned...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Hmm…

Thank you for supporting my argument! Google deserves all the credit for going out of their way to serve me!
post #488 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

But I still would like to know why Apple feels it needs to be in the mapping business. It's not something you can do quickly or on the cheap. Are the only options Google maps or Apple doing their own solution?

 

Do you think they shouldn't be?

Are you implying that it's somehow unjustified for Apple to be in the mapping business when Microsoft and Yahoo and Google are doing it too?

 

Apple was in the mapping business since the first iPhone shipped with the Maps app. In the same sense that they are in the phone and camera business because these features are also a core part of the iPhone, and Apple's customers use of their iPhones for making phone calls, taking pictures, and looking at maps. Apple also provide APIs for third-party apps to display maps and use geolocation features of the OS. If they want to evolve the features of mapping, they should own the backend mapping services too. They just switched from Google's data to Tom Tom's data, and presumably moved the mapping servers from Google's data center to Apple's. While there are "other solutions" (such as using Bing mapping servers), why would Apple move from depending on Google to depending on Microsoft?

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post #489 of 498
Locating Mildura is pointing it to the proper location indeed. But routing to it is still not right.

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post #490 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by einsteinbqat View Post

Locating Mildura is pointing it to the proper location indeed. But routing to it is still not right.

Routing from where? What is wrong with the route? I am not familiar with the territory, but looking at a route from Melbourne to Mildura -- it looks pretty reasonable to me.
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post #491 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by werdnanotroh View Post

Don't get caught up on semantics, mate.


You are wrong though, and you are ignorant. I explained to you very clearly that Midura is the town, the 'Rural City of Mildura' is the shire. Based on your logic, typing in Mildura City should give you Shire, since that's what it's called. They are different names.


Gotta love how you ignored the rest of the post, which clearly illustrates Apple's incompetency in relation to mapping, in Regional Australia Areas. 


"As I previous stated: In particular, type in Rushworth, it'll take to you to the middle of Waranga Basin, yep, apparently this town is in a lake? And guess what genius? The shire for this town is called Campaspe? So based on speculation, you'd be wrong."


I stand by this, you are making the assumption that 'Mildura' and 'Rural City of Mildura' are the same thing.


You can tell me all the princples you want, that's fantastic, but they don't work downunder, because our shires and towns have different names. 

You need to go back and re-read what I wrote. And then, stop accusing me of things I never said. For example, I never commented on Campaspe or Waranga.

So before you start sarcastically calling people 'genius', you should learn to read.
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post #492 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by einsteinbqat View Post

Locating Mildura is pointing it to the proper location indeed. But routing to it is still not right.

Routing from where? What is wrong with the route? I am not familiar with the territory, but looking at a route from Melbourne to Mildura -- it looks pretty reasonable to me.

 

On devices that had previously routed to the LGA location, the search result was corrected but it looks like old routes were cached, so that if you requested the route again it went back to the old location in the center of the LGA. Declining the suggested route in the routing box and retyping both start and end names fixes it.

post #493 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


You need to go back and re-read what I wrote. And then, stop accusing me of things I never said. For example, I never commented on Campaspe or Waranga.
So before you start sarcastically calling people 'genius', you should learn to read.


I read what you wrote. What you wrote does not apply to Australia. Because like I have said, our shires and towns have different names.

I KNOW you never commented on Campaspe or Waranga.

I wrote:
START

Gotta love how you ignored the rest of the post, which clearly illustrates Apple's incompetency in relation to mapping, in Regional Australia Areas. 
"As I previous stated: In particular, type in Rushworth, it'll take to you to the middle of Waranga Basin, yep, apparently this town is in a lake? And guess what genius? The shire for this town is called Campaspe? So based on speculation, you'd be wrong." END

***(especially notice how I wrote, AS I PREVIOUSLY STATED)

 

I wrote that, to try and illustrate that your example was not a uniform example (that's why I sarcastically called you genius). Then you said I accused you of things you never said? Which I never did, I bought your attention back to what "I" wrote. 

Perhaps you need to re-read what I wrote? - NOT the other way around.

Anyway, it is besides the point. As I said previously, you are completely speculating, that your American example holds true for Australia. Which it does not seem to, as other Shires and towns do not behave the way you say. 

And as I previously said, if you were to look at any of the towns I told you to, you'd clearly see that so many towns don't even have location markers. And some towns aren't even in Apple's database.

Anyway dude, I'm sure we both have better things to do then discuss the particulars of Regional Northern Victoria. ;) I hope I've enlightened you to my little part of the world. I certainly had no idea America had so many states and cities with the same names!

post #494 of 498
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post
Nope… …fallacy… Only because I have not upgraded yet. 

 

Talk about your fallacies! You don't even have a clue what it's actually like, so how can you comment on it at all?!

 

Seems the others were right in the first place.

post #495 of 498

Pretty funny (funny = ironic) article out of Australia today (via @Gruber):  http://au.news.yahoo.com/technology/news/article/-/15610781/police-warn-of-safety-concerns-from-google-maps/

 

 

Quote:

Police warn of safety concerns from Google Maps

December 12, 2012, 9:00 am

ABC

 

Victorian police have again raised concerns about motorists relying on online maps and GPS technology.

 

Police in Mildura have had to conduct six rescues in recent weeks, after through the Murray Sunset National Park.

 

Now police in Colac, west of Melbourne, say faults with Google maps are putting people's lives at risk along the Great Ocean Road and in the southern Otways.

 

Sergeant Nick Buenen says trucks, buses and tourists are being directed down Wild Dog Road, which is a one-way track, not built for heavy traffic.

 

He says VicRoads has denied responsibility and Google Maps has not responded.

 

"My issue is it's a significant safety issue for tourists [and] locals, who are getting the wrong information from their GPSs," he said.

 

"My concern is that one day we're going to be at the coroners court [being asked] well what did you do about it.

 

"We're trying to do something about it, but if a 22-seater bus rolls off Wild Dog Road today, [there wouldn't be] the multi-agency response to this issue that I would like."

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post #496 of 498
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Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Pretty funny (funny = ironic) article out of Australia today (via @Gruber):  http://au.news.yahoo.com/technology/news/article/-/15610781/police-warn-of-safety-concerns-from-google-maps/

Ah, the irony. Thanks for the link/quote!
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post #497 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by werdnanotroh View Post

We've heard it said many times before, why would this guy drive into the wilderness with one lot of mapping information? Why wouldn't he check more than one source? The same should hold true for Apple! Why didn't they check other mapping providers?
 

 

 

First, we don't know if there is more than one provider for this area.

 

Secondly, if two providers (assuming two are available - please refer to point number 1) then how would the Mapping software know which one is correct? It could ask the user, but what if the user doesn't know either? 

 

It's very simple: No GPS system can be relied upon 100,  so be sensible.

 

Oh, and as someone else has pointed out, we have have a similar case involving Google Maps. The difference being is that a problem with Google isn't worth so many hits on a website.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by werdnanotroh View Post


But in all honesty, I don't think this was the reason the mapping information was incorrect, because there are so many other towns in the wrong place.
 

 

Well, that's what the report said, if you have anything to refute it, aside from guesswork, then please share.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by werdnanotroh View Post


Also, the dataset came from the Australian Government (if this information is indeed true), not the state of Victoria.
 

 

Which makes not a lot of difference. Apple was using data from a third party provider with an ambiguous town marking.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by werdnanotroh View Post

And the dataset is accurate, because the location marker is simply stating the Shire name, which is the 'Rural City of Mildura'. So realistically, Apple made an assumption that the Rural City of Mildura was a town, not a Shire.
 

 

Accurate? Maybe. Unambiguous? No. The app will only be ever as good as the data you give it. That's software 101, I'm afraid.


Edited by Rayz - 12/12/12 at 1:05pm
post #498 of 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

 

 

Well, that's what the report said, if you have anything to refute it, aside from guesswork, then please share.

 

 

Which makes not a lot of difference. Apple was using data from a third party provider with an ambiguous town marking.

 

 

 

Accurate? Maybe. Unambiguous? No. The app will only be ever as good as the data you give it. That's software 101, I'm afraid.


We do know that there is more than one provider in this area. Whereis.com, Tom-Tom, the Australian Government information, and we have many hard-copy mapping services in Australia, in this instance MelWay, which I believe also do digital mapping now.

 

Apple chose a EUROPEAN mapping company for Australia (Tom-Tom), not one of the countless Australian services they could have chosen... There are more, of course, I just highlighted the most used services.

I'm certainly not disputing they shouldn't be relied on 100% - especially Apple Maps.

 

 

It isn't guess work, it says it in the report. If you look at it again, it was amended at the bottom to say Apple wrongly used the 'Mildura Shire' location information and placed it as a town. So the problem is that Apple did not checking the information correctly... Not the Government with the wrong information, Apple with bad map reading skill, lol. 

 

Since these other providers have no troubles in getting this town in the right place, perhaps you need to realise, Apple released a crappy product, using second-rate information, and second-rate information checking. ESPECIALLY in relation to Rural Australia. The cities in Australia are okay, but rural is bad!

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