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Google CEO Larry Page says rivalries with Apple & Amazon hurt users - Page 4

post #121 of 150
There has been all this venom spewed here over Google entering the mobile business and "betraying" Apple in the process. What's becoming clear us that the mobile device is a conduit to Google's business. Call it AI. Call it big data management (or knowledge accrual and management, as they sometimes do internally). Whatever you call it, it's Apple that has entered Google's realm. This was inevitable from the beginning. Apple and Google could've been perfect partners, one making the slick front end device and the other building the world's most far reaching knowledge engine. But neither side would, could trust the other to cede control.

This is no longer about devices or apps. This is about what the devices and apps allow us to access. In this realm, Apple's only lead on Google is in music. Scott Forstall is not good enough a computer scientist to help Apple catch up. Let's see if Serlet might return or if Tim Cook is smart enough to acquire Wolfram.
Edited by stelligent - 12/12/12 at 7:41am
post #122 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

There has been all this venom spewed here over Google entering the mobile business and "betraying" Apple in the process. What's becoming clear us that the mobile device is a conduit to Google's business. Call it AI. Call it big data management (or knowledge accrual and management, as they sometimes do internally). Whatever you call it, it's Apple that has entered Google's realm. This was inevitable from the beginning. Apple and Google could've been perfect partners, one making the slick front end device and the other building the world's most far reaching knowledge engine. But neither side would, could trust the other to cede control.
This is no longer about devices or apps. This is about what the devices and apps allow us to access. In this realm, Apple's only lead on Google is in music. Scott Forstall is not good enough a computer scientist to help Apple catch up. Let's see if Serlet might return or if Tim Cook is smart enough to acquire Wolfram.

 

Another way to look at it is that Android is Google's albatross. But I guess in Google's view, it's not only about what devices and apps allow us to access, in fact, it's more about what they allow them to access about us.

 

But, it's an interesting, although entirely misguided and backwards attempt to portray Apple as the one who tried to cut Google off at the knees. If only it weren't entirely plain that things went the other way around, you might even get away with it, if you were a little more persuasive.

post #123 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

 

According to all the gossip rags, he didn't start dating that girlfriend until summer 2007... a half year after the iPhone was first shown off, and about the same time that it first went on sale.  By then, it would've just been a curiousity. Supposedly, he first tried giving it to his wife. 

 

So, instead of showing a secret, it sounds like he was just being cheap.  Really cheap.

 

 

Touche!   Exellent response.  Siri, of course.

 

 

Nope.  And while the iPhone was the first multi-touch phone sold, it wasn't the first one announced.  That honor belongs to the Open Moko smartphone, two months before Jobs showed off the iPhone for the first time.

 

"The phone itself has a 2.8-inch VGA display, USB mesh file sharing, multi-touch sensor recognition, GSM, GPS, 128MB RAM, a Samsung ARM9-based processor and MP3 playback capabilities. The concept of their multi-touch gestures is that you can use two fingers to control a variety of tasks, such as two finger scrolling like the PowerBooks and MacBooks."  - Gizmodo article, Nov 7, 2006

 

700

 

Later, when the iPhone came out, Gizmodo remembered it: "OpenMoko - Did they have a time machine or what?"

 

Other reporters even wondered if Apple had stolen some of the ideas, but I think not. As I keep saying, many touch features naturally end up being developed in parallel by multiple groups.  Once you decide to go full touch, quite a few design options become obvious.

 

Did you read the Gizmodo article carefully?  It said "The concept of their multi-touch gestures is that you can use two fingers to control a variety of tasks, such as two finger scrolling like the PowerBooks and MacBooks."  So their multi-touch is copied from PowerBooks and MacBooks?

post #124 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Another way to look at it is that Android is Google's albatross. But I guess in Google's view, it's not only about what devices and apps allow us to access, in fact, it's more about what they allow them to access about us.

But, it's an interesting, although entirely misguided and backwards attempt to portray Apple as the one who tried to cut Google off at the knees. If only it weren't entirely plain that things went the other way around, you might even get away with it, if you were a little more persuasive.
There was no implication that Apple tried to cut Google off at the knees. Android is not Google's albatross, but is instead their Trojan horse. Anyone who doesn't get this simply doesn't get it. Don't obsess so much over iOS v Android. That was a prelude. You'll be gobsmacked over what's coming.

As for controlling what one can or cannot access, you're lying to yourself if you believe fat Apple is any less controlling. Any tech company with a big picture in mind is plotting how to shape, control information access. Don't kid yourself into believing otherwise.

Where Google stands out from Apple is not how they control your access to data, it's how they gather it. On that front, the ethical line is indeed up for debate. But ask yourself this, who's in a more powerful position - the company with the data or the other pounding the privacy ethos?
Edited by stelligent - 12/12/12 at 7:59am
post #125 of 150
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post
iOS has improved VERY slowly while Google and Samsung have had the pedal to the metal with Android.

 

Well, yeah. They had to. It was absolutely useless in the beginning.


Siri is "still" in beta and it's been over a year now.

 

Gmail was in beta for six years.


That said, while it pains me to say this, some of what they do is fantastic work.

 

I want them to get out of consumer computing entirely and focus on the self-driving cars. Stop doing everything else they do and just do the cars.


Siri? Barely better than when it was announced if at all.

 

Implying that it was bad at launch, which it wasn't.

post #126 of 150

Quote:

Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

Did you read the Gizmodo article carefully?  It said "The concept of their multi-touch gestures is that you can use two fingers to control a variety of tasks, such as two finger scrolling like the PowerBooks and MacBooks."  So their multi-touch is copied from PowerBooks and MacBooks?

 

It's just the reporter's way of helping the reader understand, by referring to something else that used more than one finger.

 

Multi-touch has been around since at least the early 1980s.   Here's a simple timeline:

 

1000

post #127 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Quote:

 

It's just the reporter's way of helping the reader understand, by referring to something else that used more than one finger.

 

Multi-touch has been around since at least the early 1980s.   Here's a simple timeline:

 

 

Hey, we're still waiting for you to respond to the post asking for details of your background, you know, because your claims about it are, shall we say, questionable. Or are you just hoping everyone will forget about that?

post #128 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

There was no implication that Apple tried to cut Google off at the knees. Android is not Google's albatross, but is instead their Trojan horse. Anyone who doesn't get this simply doesn't get it. Don't obsess so much over iOS v Android. That was a prelude. You'll be gobsmacked over what's coming.

 

I'm not holding my breath. Real soon now, I suppose?

post #129 of 150
never trust company who make money by tracking your activities and selling that info to somebody else. Oh, using a copy of somebody else's tech w/o permission and crushing that said company. Source: history
post #130 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash-reverse View Post

never trust company who make money by tracking your activities and selling that info to somebody else. Oh, using a copy of somebody else's tech w/o permission and crushing that said company. Source: history

Shouldn't be so hard on Apple. In most cases when they did thus, they paid up eventually.
post #131 of 150

To help out the users, we really should have a way to block ads if we don't want to see them.
 

post #132 of 150
Originally Posted by TheUnfetteredMind View Post
To help out the users, we really should have a way to block ads if we don't want to see them.

 

AdBlock, Ghostery, DoNotTrack+,GoogleClickTracker, and Google Disconnect should get rid of their presence as much as possible.

 

And if you have Little Snitch, directly block Google Analytics (and any/all of their other services) from connecting.

post #133 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

AdBlock, Ghostery, DoNotTrack+,GoogleClickTracker, and Google Disconnect should get rid of their presence as much as possible.

 

And if you have Little Snitch, directly block Google Analytics (and any/all of their other services) from connecting.


Are these avail for iOS? :)

post #134 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

AdBlock, Ghostery, DoNotTrack+,GoogleClickTracker, and Google Disconnect should get rid of their presence as much as possible.

 

And if you have Little Snitch, directly block Google Analytics (and any/all of their other services) from connecting.

TS, does DoNotTrack+ also block Facebook data harvesting or Microsoft user tracking too?

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post #135 of 150
Originally Posted by TheUnfetteredMind View Post
Are these avail for iOS? :)

 

Ah. Well… 


Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
TS, does DoNotTrack+ also block Facebook data harvesting or Microsoft user tracking too?

 

Oh, before we go on, apparently they renamed it to "Do Not Track Me". Here's what they have to say about Facebook:


9. Does your software stop all tracking by Facebook?

Facebook makes money from advertising, so they make it complicated for you to use their site in a way that interrupts their ability to collect your personal information for advertisers. Although we can stop Facebook and Facebook advertisers from tracking you when you are not on Facebook (blocking “Like” buttons, etc) there's nothing that DNTMe -- or anyone else -- can do about Facebook when you are actually ON Facebook. Anything you voluntarily post, including photos, comments, interests, and your location, is used for tracking purposes.

Our best advice is to set strict privacy settings, limit what you share, and avoid games & apps (they are marketing companies in disguise). Facebook isn't truly a free service; it's paid for by its users' information. That’s why the DNTMe icon turns yellow on Facebook: even if you can't see any tracking companies in the alert window, you should surf with caution.

 

So it seems they try their best to stop Facebook as long as you're not on it. Which, for those of us without accounts at all, should be nearly everything they try to do. They have a similar point for Google.

 

Looking up Microsoft now. I don't see anything specific about it (and I wish they'd just have a list of the trackers it can find right on their site).

 

All together, I use AdBlock, Ghostery (ad blocking), Do Not Track Me (trackers), Get Off My Lawn (social networking buttons), GoogleClickTracker (though I use Bing now, anyway), Defacer (gets rid of Facebook buttons on AI, since Get Off My Lawn doesn't seem to find them), and Google/Facebook/Twitter Disconnect (more tracking). 

 

I may have one or two redundant ones there, but only one or two. And that's unacceptable, in my opinion.  Everything should legally be forced to be opt-in.

 

"How would they make money?"

A more reputable business plan, maybe? Anyway, there are plenty of willing subjects for an opt-in.


Edited by Tallest Skil - 12/12/12 at 11:27am
post #136 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

TS, does DoNotTrack+ also block Facebook data harvesting or Microsoft user tracking too?


That would be nice!

post #137 of 150
"I"d like to see more cooperation on the user side"

Larry wants more cooperation from Apple after they promptly stabbed Apple in the back after Apple made them privileged partners in the introduction of the iPhone by that robbery they call Android!

What is this guy on?
post #138 of 150
Originally Posted by BARCODE View Post
What is this guy on?

 

A roll.

post #139 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Ah. Well… 

 

Oh, before we go on, apparently they renamed it to "Do Not Track Me". Here's what they have to say about Facebook:

 

So it seems they try their best to stop Facebook as long as you're not on it. Which, for those of us without accounts at all, should be nearly everything they try to do. They have a similar point for Google.

 

Looking up Microsoft now. I don't see anything specific about it (and I wish they'd just have a list of the trackers it can find right on their site).

 

All together, I use AdBlock, Ghostery (ad blocking), Do Not Track Me (trackers), Get Off My Lawn (social networking buttons), GoogleClickTracker (though I use Bing now, anyway), Defacer (gets rid of Facebook buttons on AI, since Get Off My Lawn doesn't seem to find them), and Google/Facebook/Twitter Disconnect (more tracking). 

 

I may have one or two redundant ones there, but only one or two. And that's unacceptable, in my opinion.  Everything should legally be forced to be opt-in.

Thanks for the detailed info TS. I'm sure more than one member will find it useful.

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post #140 of 150

TS, you'll find this interesting. the latest developer build of Google's Chrome browser lets users set direct links to competing search engines. 

 

 

The Chrome team has announced a new addition to the Chromium (beta version of Chrome) browser this afternoon, changing the way many users will search for content online via Google and other search engines. Google is testing/experimenting with an added search box to the new tab page, a page that has historically just listed recently viewed websites, and the new search box will not only include Google search but will also be accompanied by Yahoo, Bing and others. Google said the reasoning behind the change is: “we’ve found that many people still navigate to their search engine’s home page to initiate a search instead.”

Google is also allowing search engines to display what a user has searched for right in the omnibox, potentially doing away with a second search box on the actual search page. Additionally, Google has made a new Embedded Search API available so other search engines can implement what’s new. The features outlined today are available for testing from the Chrome Developer Channel that includes a select few Chrome OS and Windows users (Mac will be coming soon). Sadly, Mountain View gave no word on when the features will hit an official build.

 

So TS, you can easily use Google Chrome without using Google Search.

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post #141 of 150
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

we’ve found…

 

So many places to go with this. 1wink.gif

 

But yeah, that is interesting. Thanks!

post #142 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

So many places to go with this. 1wink.gif

 

But yeah, that is interesting. Thanks!

 

Yes, now Chrome will be able to report back on what people are searching for on other search engines, whether they tried to search for it on Google before or after, what sort of results they got, how long they spent looking at them, ...

post #143 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjourni View Post

 

While I agree with you in principle, yes you CAN beat someone by copying. Biggest example? Microsoft.

 

More sales doesn't mean its better. I don't see Microsoft as "copying" Apple. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz1 View Post

I suppose you see Google Docs and Google Maps as failures...

Google Docs isn't all its made up to be. Google Maps..Meh. Neither is nothing really better than anything else on the market. 

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post #144 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

I predicted that Apple would release the Siri "API" and this would cause a whole new voice-app goldrush, including universal speech/dialog translation.
I am shocked it hasn't happened yet.

"You" predicted? The same way I predicted a phone with no keys this morning? Lol
post #145 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Are you still trying to breathe life into your fairy tale? Given it up, pull the plug, it's brain dead.


Dont you see he is using his distoriton field to bend the facts!!! WOW,  he really lives someplace other than earth....

post #146 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Well, yeah. They had to. It was absolutely useless in the beginning.

 

Gmail was in beta for six years.

 

I want them to get out of consumer computing entirely and focus on the self-driving cars. Stop doing everything else they do and just do the cars.

 

Implying that it was bad at launch, which it wasn't.

Agreed Google advanced rapidly because they had to but Apple did not do enough to be sure ensure that they kept their lead.

 

Gmail was in beta for 6 years? So what? Your point is...

 

Self-Driving car? Cool.

 

I never implied Siri was bad at launch at all. What are you smoking? The reality is, Apple was better with voice recognition and now their not. Again Google evidently busted their tails to improve (because they had to) while Apple did very little to build on Siri.

 

The fact is Apple needs to work harder to be sure that they stay ahead and they haven't been doing that very well as of late. Their competitors are working extremely hard and as such improving at a stronger pace. Apple need to be sure that their competition is always playing catch-up.

 

 

I think Apple knows that they haven't been doing such a good job in this area and this is the REAL reason Forstall was shown the door.

 

I love Apple and their products, but I'm not afraid to call them on their sh*t, when they're not getting the job done.

post #147 of 150
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post
Gmail was in beta for 6 years? So what? Your point is...

 

…Several.

 

  • Software being in beta ≠ the software is bad.
  • Good software can be in beta long after it becomes good.
  • Apple is not the only company that publicly releases beta software.
  • Long beta periods have existed for other software that went on to become extraordinarily popular.

 

I thought that would have just clicked for you once you'd seen Gmail in the same light you're shining on Siri.

post #148 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

…Several.

 

  • Software being in beta ≠ the software is bad.
  • Good software can be in beta long after it becomes good.
  • Apple is not the only company that publicly releases beta software.
  • Long beta periods have existed for other software that went on to become extraordinarily popular.

 

I thought that would have just clicked for you once you'd seen Gmail in the same light you're shining on Siri.

When did I say that Beta software was bad? When did I say that Siri was bad?

 

Apple can keep it in beta as far as I'm concerned if they are actually going to keep working at making it better, but alas, they have done very little.

 

Most software does not stay in beta indefinitely. Bad on Google. That's the exception, not the norm.

 

I actually feel that Siri was pretty good when it launched. My point which you clearly wish to ignore, is that Siri is only marginally better now, than when it was released. In that time, the competition have not only closed the gap but actually surpassed Siri in "some" ways. Apple let this happen and they shouldn't have. I realize that Siri can do more than voice recognition and if Apple will release API's it will do even more.

 

When it comes to speech to text recognition and search, Google is presently killing it. I wish they weren't, but they are.

post #149 of 150
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post
Apple can keep it in beta as far as I'm concerned if they are actually going to keep working at making it better, but alas, they have done very little.

 

They've done TONS. They've added languages, processing has been improved, accuracy has been improved, and even the scope of functionality has been increased.

 

What do you expect? What could possibly assuage you? Would you prefer they just drop the "beta" tag? Then you'd complain that it's not "release-worthy".

post #150 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

They've done TONS. They've added languages, processing has been improved, accuracy has been improved, and even the scope of functionality has been increased.

 

What do you expect? What could possibly assuage you? Would you prefer they just drop the "beta" tag? Then you'd complain that it's not "release-worthy".

TONS? Seriously?  The fact that it is in other languages now is of zero value to me. When I use Siri today, compared to when it was first released it's no better. In fact at times the performance is actually worse. It depends on the servers I suppose, that are doing the voice recognition. Sometimes they get overloaded I'm guessing - or maybe it's spotty web connections.

 

Google can do accurate, damn-near real-time speech recognition right on the phone, without having to send data off to a server to be processed. There is a HUGE difference in how Google's speech recognition has improved from when the time Siri was released. Siri performs no better and at times worse.

 

BTW - I am not a Google fan and I dislike their greasy, data harvesting activities. That said, I'm not so blind as to not recognize when their software is doing a great job.

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