The future...

1. Isaac Asimov, "I, Robot"

2. Aldous Huxley, "Brave New World"

3. Ben Bova, "Moonwar"

4. also Bova

 

we don't need to discuss it, you can read about it.

Socialist Future: Brave New World

Neocon Future: 1984

Libertarian Future: Mad Max

Likely Future: The Road (Cormac McCarthy)

 

I believe that's exactly what you think. 

 

 

Socialist Future: China

 

Neocon Future: Ha. We tricked you.  "Neocon" is a a derogatory term that the Left made up.  

 

Libertarian Future:  Probably the closest to American Founders' vision.  

 

Likely Future: Not nearly as exciting as we think.  We're not going to Mars anytime soon.  We're not setting up lunar colonies.  We don't even have an operable civilian shuttle anymore.  The private sector will continue to produce beautiful, useful and expensive gadgets that we love but help us achieve nothing and need to be "upgraded" every 2 years.  Flying cars and hover trains are nowhere to be found.  I was promised flying cars and floating skateboards by 2015, goddammit!  TVs keep getting better, and TV itself keeps getting worse.  Crappy real actors will be replaced by crappy digital ones.  80s fashions will come back in, then go out.  10 more years and 90s fashions will be in.  The Ds and Rs will still be at each other's throats.  We'll still be in debt.  A lot of people will still be stupid.  And I'll be watching the Eagles not win more Super Bowls, smoking a cigar in my Man Cave.  Screw it. 

China is not a socialist democracy, silly goose. Try socialist democracies for guidance.

I wouldn't expect you to see the difference between China and Denmark, actually. It's beyond you to admit that socialism (an economic system, not a political one) is a completely different beast under the political systems of democracy (including representative republicanism) and totalitarian oligarchy.

 

I didn't claim it was. 

 

 

 

You mean "for comparison."  I won't be looking for any of their "guidance."   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hold on, let me wipe the the condescension you just splooged everywhere.  

 

 

 

Keep adding to caricature and arguing ad hominem.  It beats actual discussion.  

 

 

 

Placing the direct comparison between Denmark and China aside (one which I never made), I disagree.  There are obviously differences in every system, but socialism has common themes.  Among these are the sacrifice of individual liberty in favor of state control.  In fact, one could argue the only real difference is the reason said control is implemented.  The end result is less freedom...both economic and political.  One State justifies it in the name of equalizing outcomes at the expense of liberty.  The other simply doesn't like liberty.  Either way, freedom loses.  

Edited by SDW2001 - 12/14/12 at 12:32pm

Absolute freedom is anarchy. A line is drawn. While we both treasure freedom, we differ on where that line is.

For instance, I believe it's more important to have the freedom from being subjected to smoke in a theater than to have the freedom to smoke in a theater. In the same vein, I believe it's more important to have the freedom to get medical care without facing bankruptcy than it is to have the freedom not to contribute to others' care through taxes when you don't necessarily need care yourself (yet).

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

 

 

By whom?

 

 

 

Uh huh. 

 

 

 

Quite substantially.

 

 

 

I agree. But disagree that this needs to be state mandate.

 

We not only disagree on where the line is drawn, but also the means to the goals.

 

 

 

And I believe it's important for you to be free to beg the question. 

 

Did I argue for absolute freedom?  

 

 

 

Where?  Who draws it?  

 

 

 

 

No, I don't think we do.  

 

 

 

Right, because that directly harms others.  But me being rich does not directly and automatically harm others.  And as MJ says, why does the State have to mandate that?  Can't private theater owners decide based on customer feedback?  Why the hell can't I light a cigar in a bar in PA...even if the bar owner wants to allow it?  

 

 

That is not freedom, that is entitlement.  It's not surprising you don't understand the difference.  Entitlement requires the absence of freedom, at least to some degree.  

 

 

Then you need to give up the right to control what you eat, how much you eat, what recreational activities you enjoy, you will not be allowed in the ocean or climbing mountains... thow shalt not smoke tobacco or drink alcohol or use any kind of mood-altering chemicals.

If I am going to pay for YOUR general health-care (taxes) then you are forbidden to engage in activities and behaviors that put your health at risk.

 

Exactly.  He is confusing entitlement benefits with freedom.  In reality, freedom and liberty are surrendered every time we allow the government to do something for us.  That doesn't mean we reject all government services, but it requires careful consideration of any expansion of size and scope of the the government.  

 

Which...could be just about everything. Does your occupation have you sitting at a desk too much? That may need to change. Are you getting the appropriate amount of exercise? Well...that will have to change. How much TV do you watch? How far do you commute to work? Etc.

 

Oh, but MJ..they could never make us do that.  I mean, it's not like they are mandating that the Catholic church provide free birth control through hospitals, schools and charities.  It's not like they already have their hands all over school lunches.  It's not like I had a state representative actually encourage me to stop smoking cigars when I wrote him about a huge cigar tax that was proposed.   

 

Let's not forget about the soda tax, soda bans, hiding the baby formula and banning salt.

 

But these are just outliers. PLus all reasonable things to do and anyone who objects is simply a shill for the soda companies, baby formula companies and salt companies. Plus doesn't want people to be healthy.

 

I'm sure life under the totalitarian health regime will be just delightful.

 

 or   

 

I don't know which.