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Massacre in Connecticut - Page 14

post #521 of 1058
Do I recall correctly Marv, that you're a military veteran?
post #522 of 1058

Yes I was in the war in Nam in the 60's.Why do you ask this?
 

post #523 of 1058
That would make you uniquely qualified in this discussion.
post #524 of 1058

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #525 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Another shooting at a university.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/us/shooting-reported-at-college-in-houston.html?_r=0
And in Texas. Was this campus a "gun-free" zone?
post #526 of 1058

That is correct .
 

post #527 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Was this campus a "gun-free" zone?

 

Yes.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #528 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Was this campus a "gun-free" zone?

Yes.
So imagine if everyone on campus who wanted a gun had one... Do you honestly think this sort of thing would be less frequent, or more frequent?
post #529 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So imagine if everyone on campus who wanted a gun had one... Do you honestly think this sort of thing would be less frequent, or more frequent?

 

Just as frequent or less.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #530 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So imagine if everyone on campus who wanted a gun had one... Do you honestly think this sort of thing would be less frequent, or more frequent?

Just as frequent or less.
I didn't expect any different answer from you. But let's just say that I strongly believe that to be an absolutely idiotic claim.
post #531 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I didn't expect any different answer from you.

 

Then why ask?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But let's just say that I strongly believe that to be an absolutely idiotic claim.

 

How liberal of you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #532 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I didn't expect any different answer from you.

Then why ask?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

But let's just say that I strongly believe that to be an absolutely idiotic claim.

How liberal of you.
Liberal... Realist... Tomato... Tomahto...
post #533 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Liberal... Realist... Tomato... Tomahto...

 

Of course. 1rolleyes.gif

 

But, of course, you missed my point. What's liberal of you is dismissing opinions you disagree with as "absolutely idiotic."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #534 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Liberal... Realist... Tomato... Tomahto...

Of course. 1rolleyes.gif


But, of course, you missed my point. What's liberal of you is dismissing opinions you disagree with as "absolutely idiotic."
You don't understand liberalism. It's not devoid of common sense. If you were, for instance, to say that contracting AIDS can cure cancer, and that cancer patients should try it, then I would rightfully be able to call that assertion idiotic, and it would have nothing to do with how "liberal" I am.
post #535 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You don't understand liberalism.

 

In one sense you are right. But not in the sense that you mean.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

It's not devoid of common sense.

 

All evidence to the contrary?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

If you were, for instance, to say that contracting AIDS can cure cancer, and that cancer patients should try it, then I would rightfully be able to call that assertion idiotic, and it would have nothing to do with how "liberal" I am.

 

And shitty analogies are another hallmark of liberal/progressive argumentation (if you and BR...and the above analogy are any example.)

 

To be truthful, what's most idiotic about me is my continued engagement with you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #536 of 1058
Yes, perhaps it's time for you to smell the coffee. Unless you have science, logic and reason on your side, you won't win against me. Saying more guns on campus will lead to fewer shootings is devoid of science, logic and reason... ergo... Goodbye. 1smile.gif
post #537 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Unless you have science, logic and reason on your side, you won't win against me.

 

I've pwned you so many times here that statement is laughably delusional.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Saying more guns on campus will lead to fewer shootings is devoid of science, logic and reason... ergo...

 

I won't hold my breath waiting for you to prove that.

 

1rolleyes.gif

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #538 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Unless you have science, logic and reason on your side, you won't win against me.

I've pwned you so many times here that statement is laughably delusional.
Keep dreaming, Bizarro.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Saying more guns on campus will lead to fewer shootings is devoid of science, logic and reason... ergo...

I won't hold my breath waiting for you to prove that.

1rolleyes.gif
"Ooh! Ooh! Prove it! Ooh! Ooh!"
/horshack
post #539 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes, perhaps it's time for you to smell the coffee. Unless you have science, logic and reason on your side, you won't win against me. Saying more guns on campus will lead to fewer shootings is devoid of science, logic and reason... ergo... Goodbye. 1smile.gif

 

I forget, is it a win or loss against you when you conveniently try to ignore posts that blow your reasoning to bits and then proclaim yourself the winner on the next page?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

/horshack

 

How old are you with that reference there?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #540 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes, perhaps it's time for you to smell the coffee. Unless you have science, logic and reason on your side, you won't win against me. Saying more guns on campus will lead to fewer shootings is devoid of science, logic and reason... ergo... Goodbye. 1smile.gif

I forget, is it a win or loss against you when you conveniently try to ignore posts that blow your reasoning to bits and then proclaim yourself the winner on the next page?
Stop lying. None of my arguments were "torn to bits" by MJ and Jazzy's use of strawmen and ignoring the facts and common sense. For instance, when I asked about enforcement and was sent a link to an essay about security, an essay that was so ignorant it ignored the fact that strength isn't just used (even on a personal level) for defense, but for offense as well... yeah I guess by your standards that was "torn to bits".
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

/horshack

How old are you with that reference there?
41. How about you?
Edited by tonton - 1/23/13 at 3:25pm
post #541 of 1058
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


So at the end of the day you're excusing these irresponsible gun owners for having their guns stolen. Everyone says that guns aren't the problem. How can you also not recognize that irresponsible gun ownership is definitely part of the problem. The gun owner did NOT have a "safe". A metal box you buy at Home Depot is not a "safe" unless it is 1) secure from picking/cracking and 2) bolted down or too heavy to move. Failure to recognize that means the gun owners shouldn't have been owning a gun.

 

I agree a real "safe" is needed.  But let me ask you...would this crime have occurred without the map being published?  Is it as likely to have happened?  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #542 of 1058
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That would make you uniquely qualified in this discussion.

 

That would make him no more qualified than anyone here.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #543 of 1058
Quote:

Originally Posted by tonton View Post

 

Stop lying. None of my arguments were "torn to bits" by MJ and Jazzy's use of strawmen and ignoring the facts and common sense. For instance, when I asked about enforcement and was sent a link to an essay about security, an essay that was so ignorant it ignored the fact that strength isn't just used (even on a personal level) for defense, but for offense as well... yeah I guess by your standards that was "torn to bits".

 

41. How about you?

 

Who said I was talking about MJ or Jazzy at all? I was talking about my own post where you were blaiming the victim for their crime. You've addressed it by noting Marv is in the military. That was quite a diversion there.

 

I'm pretty sure my profile notes I'm 42 but the point is that even if I get the reference, the show has been off the air for two generations and the actor that spoke those lines is dead.

 

Now please excuse me while I go back to working up my Bonanza zingers to roast you with!1wink.gif

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #544 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That would make you uniquely qualified in this discussion.

That would make him no more qualified than anyone here.  
Really? Have you been trained to use a gun against men? Have you seen anyone you know killed by gunfire? I haven't.
post #545 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Stop lying. None of my arguments were "torn to bits" by MJ and Jazzy's use of strawmen and ignoring the facts and common sense. For instance, when I asked about enforcement and was sent a link to an essay about security, an essay that was so ignorant it ignored the fact that strength isn't just used (even on a personal level) for defense, but for offense as well... yeah I guess by your standards that was "torn to bits".

41. How about you?

Who said I was talking about MJ or Jazzy at all? I was talking about my own post where you were blaiming the victim for their crime. You've addressed it by noting Marv is in the military. That was quite a diversion there.

I'm pretty sure my profile notes I'm 42 but the point is that even if I get the reference, the show has been off the air for two generations and the actor that spoke those lines is dead.

Now please excuse me while I go back to working up my Bonanza zingers to roast you with!1wink.gif
So you interjected into an argument with a nonsequitur. Again. And I had already explained that having a gun stolen was not the same as having a car stolen, because people who steal guns do so for one purpose and one purpose alone. To use those guns against people. So a gun owner should take a hell of a lot more care to avoid theft, and that doesn't mean buying an unbolted 50 pound "safe" at Home Depot.
post #546 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Really? Have you been trained to use a gun against men? Have you seen anyone you know killed by gunfire? I haven't.

 

Whether SDW meant this or not...I'll tell you why it doesn't matter: It's a red herring. A person's qualifications with firearms is irrelevant as is whether someone "needs" X firearm for hunting (or whatever activity the anti-gun crowd wishes to limit people to.) And so is whether or not you think someone (or a group) could reasonably defend themselves against a modern tyrannical government armed to the teeth as the US government is. These are all red herrings. They are all irrelevant.

 

This is a question about rights. Those other items are an attempt to distract from the real issue.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #547 of 1058
Absolute individual rights is as idiotic a concept as is absolute collectivism. Why don't we have the right to drive drunk? Not because you're guaranteed to kill someone. Not because you're not responsible enough to know when you've had too much. But because there's danger anyway.
post #548 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Absolute individual rights is as idiotic a concept as is absolute collectivism. Why don't we have the right to drive drunk? Not because you're guaranteed to kill someone. Not because you're not responsible enough to know when you've had too much. But because there's danger anyway.

There is no right in the US that is absolute. Nice try at a straw man argument.

post #549 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Absolute individual rights is as idiotic a concept as is absolute collectivism. Why don't we have the right to drive drunk? Not because you're guaranteed to kill someone. Not because you're not responsible enough to know when you've had too much. But because there's danger anyway.
There is no right in the US that is absolute.
Exactly! A fact that MJ vehemently criticizes. He's saying the right to own firearms Should be absolute!
Quote:
Nice try at a straw man argument.
Then why did you come out and agree with my point? It's not a straw man. MJ is saying that firearms ownership is about rights. I'm saying that our right to own firearms is not and should not be absolute, just like our right to drink and drive.
post #550 of 1058

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #551 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Stop lying. None of my arguments were "torn to bits" by MJ and Jazzy's use of strawmen and ignoring the facts and common sense. For instance, when I asked about enforcement and was sent a link to an essay about security, an essay that was so ignorant it ignored the fact that strength isn't just used (even on a personal level) for defense, but for offense as well... yeah I guess by your standards that was "torn to bits".

41. How about you?

Who said I was talking about MJ or Jazzy at all? I was talking about my own post where you were blaiming the victim for their crime. You've addressed it by noting Marv is in the military. That was quite a diversion there.

I'm pretty sure my profile notes I'm 42 but the point is that even if I get the reference, the show has been off the air for two generations and the actor that spoke those lines is dead.

Now please excuse me while I go back to working up my Bonanza zingers to roast you with!1wink.gif
So you interjected into an argument with a nonsequitur. Again. And I had already explained that having a gun stolen was not the same as having a car stolen, because people who steal guns do so for one purpose and one purpose alone. To use those guns against people. So a gun owner should take a hell of a lot more care to avoid theft, and that doesn't mean buying an unbolted 50 pound "safe" at Home Depot.

 

Yeah. I mean Adam Lanza's mom should be charged for not wearing a bullet proof vest thus preventing her own death and the theft of guns that occurred.1oyvey.gif

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #552 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Stop lying. None of my arguments were "torn to bits" by MJ and Jazzy's use of strawmen and ignoring the facts and common sense. For instance, when I asked about enforcement and was sent a link to an essay about security, an essay that was so ignorant it ignored the fact that strength isn't just used (even on a personal level) for defense, but for offense as well... yeah I guess by your standards that was "torn to bits".


41. How about you?


Who said I was talking about MJ or Jazzy at all? I was talking about my own post where you were blaiming the victim for their crime. You've addressed it by noting Marv is in the military. That was quite a diversion there.


I'm pretty sure my profile notes I'm 42 but the point is that even if I get the reference, the show has been off the air for two generations and the actor that spoke those lines is dead.


Now please excuse me while I go back to working up my Bonanza zingers to roast you with!1wink.gif
So you interjected into an argument with a nonsequitur. Again. And I had already explained that having a gun stolen was not the same as having a car stolen, because people who steal guns do so for one purpose and one purpose alone. To use those guns against people. So a gun owner should take a hell of a lot more care to avoid theft, and that doesn't mean buying an unbolted 50 pound "safe" at Home Depot.

Yeah. I mean Adam Lanza's mom should be charged for not wearing a bullet proof vest thus preventing her own death and the theft of guns that occurred.1oyvey.gif
Must you attempt to defend yourself with a straw man? Pathetic.
post #553 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Stop lying. None of my arguments were "torn to bits" by MJ and Jazzy's use of strawmen and ignoring the facts and common sense. For instance, when I asked about enforcement and was sent a link to an essay about security, an essay that was so ignorant it ignored the fact that strength isn't just used (even on a personal level) for defense, but for offense as well... yeah I guess by your standards that was "torn to bits".


41. How about you?


Who said I was talking about MJ or Jazzy at all? I was talking about my own post where you were blaiming the victim for their crime. You've addressed it by noting Marv is in the military. That was quite a diversion there.


I'm pretty sure my profile notes I'm 42 but the point is that even if I get the reference, the show has been off the air for two generations and the actor that spoke those lines is dead.


Now please excuse me while I go back to working up my Bonanza zingers to roast you with!1wink.gif
So you interjected into an argument with a nonsequitur. Again. And I had already explained that having a gun stolen was not the same as having a car stolen, because people who steal guns do so for one purpose and one purpose alone. To use those guns against people. So a gun owner should take a hell of a lot more care to avoid theft, and that doesn't mean buying an unbolted 50 pound "safe" at Home Depot.

Yeah. I mean Adam Lanza's mom should be charged for not wearing a bullet proof vest thus preventing her own death and the theft of guns that occurred.1oyvey.gif
Must you attempt to defend yourself with a straw man? Pathetic.


No but you must because blaming the victim is a legitimate fallacy and you are the one talking about how people should be charged for having crimes committed against them.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #554 of 1058
There are laws against negligence. Are they blaming the victim too? I'm claiming allowing a gun to be stolen is negligent, and should be criminally so, because of the danger it poses to society.
Edited by tonton - 1/24/13 at 7:50pm
post #555 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There are laws against negligence. Are they blaming the victim too? I'm claiming allowing a gun to be stolen is negligent, and should be criminally so, because of the danger it poses to society.

 

Your problem here is in the "allowing" part. Negligence requires...you know...negligence. There's a standard to be met hear in the courts. A guy having guns locked in safes is probably fairly well below the bar. Newspapers publishing addresses might be a bit higher on the list though.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #556 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There are laws against negligence. Are they blaming the victim too? I'm claiming allowing a gun to be stolen is negligent, and should be criminally so, because of the danger it poses to society.

Your problem here is in the "allowing" part. Negligence requires...you know...negligence. There's a standard to be met hear in the courts. A guy having guns locked in safes is probably fairly well below the bar. Newspapers publishing addresses might be a bit higher on the list though.
As I said, a fifty pound box from Home Depot that is not bolted to the floor is not a safe. Necessary precautions were not taken.
post #557 of 1058

He owned a gun to protect his life and safety.That is why. It was not an automatic that is for sure.
 

post #558 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

As I said, a fifty pound box from Home Depot that is not bolted to the floor is not a safe. Necessary precautions were not taken.

 

And I'm pretty sure that you don't get to unilaterally declare what negligence is in the law despite what your authoritarian inclinations may lead you to believe.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #559 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

How liberal of you.

 

How is this a comeback?

 

Comparing our Founders with loyalists the founders were liberals.

 

Comparing our Founders (in terms of religion) with Catholics many of the founders were liberals.

 

Comparing our Founders in terms of economics many of the the founders were liberals. (read Paine's Agrarian Justice).

 

The Declaration of Independence is a liberal document against the conservative crown.  Separation of Church and State is a liberal concept against religious conservatism.

 

Half of our Founders were Federalists (i.e. pro-big government) under Hamilton. 

 

Liberal is not a dirty word.  Our founders were the liberals of their day because they understood that to move forward it meant not doing things as they had been done before.  

 

It is also good to know, however, that the Founders were as contentious as we are today and name called with the best of them (leading to a duel or two).  

 

As a moderate centrist I lean far more toward Washington over either Hamilton or Jefferson.  I must say, as I grew older I became less enamored with Jefferson, especially contrasted with Washington.  While both Virginians Washington freed his slaves while Jefferson did not.  Washington hated political parties while Jefferson started one.

post #560 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

How is this a comeback?

 

It was referring to the standard (modern) liberal/progressive approach to those they disagree with.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Comparing our Founders with loyalists the founders were liberals.

 

Yes, they were...in the classical sense of liberalism. However modern liberals not at all liberal in that sense.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Half of our Founders were Federalists (i.e. pro-big government) under Hamilton.

 

As are 99% of modern liberals/progressives (and conservatives) today. There are virtually no anti-federalists anymore today. Mostly libertarians, anarco-capitalists and "micharcists" would most likely align with the anti-federalist sentiment and almost not at all with the federalist point of view, while 99% of current Democrats, Republicans, conservatives, liberals and progressives would be aligned with the federalist view.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

Liberal is not a dirty word.

 

It is not in the classical sense. It is in the modern sense if no other reason than the hypocrisy and arrogance embedded in it. To use this same word and assume that liberals today are the same as liberals of the time you're referring is demonstrates an ignorance of how that term (and the people who've claimed it) has evolved.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

It is also good to know, however, that the Founders were as contentious as we are today and name called with the best of them (leading to a duel or two).

 

Yes, I've heard that the "nastiness" we complain about today pales in comparison to the past.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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