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Massacre in Connecticut - Page 20

post #761 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Are you f'ing kidding me?

 

The number one way to lower preventable medical deaths is through socialized medicine. We know this as an observable fact by looking at what is happening in countries outside of the US, countries which have socialized medicine.

 

Why aren't we doing anything about it? Because of people like you.

 

Maybe you want to live in a prison, but I don't. People like me just want to be left alone by people like you.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #762 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Yes, let's brand people like cattle and treat them as such because they are too stupid to care for themselves. A regular leftist utopia.

So when you or someone you know goes into hospital and has a band put around their wrists they're being treated like "cattle" and "stupid"?

 

This is just silly paranoid thinking that's got no place in a world that has the brains to come up with ways to keep a lot more people alive. The funny thing is, you call me a eugenist!

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #763 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So when you or someone you know goes into hospital and has a band put around their wrists they're being treated like "cattle" and "stupid"?

 

This is just silly paranoid thinking that's got no place in a world that has the brains to come up with ways to keep a lot more people alive. The funny thing is, you call me a eugenist!

 

You may have the noblest of intentions, but implanted RFID chips are really no different than branded serial numbers. And the moment you start looking at individuals as numbers rather than living, breathing human beings, it's much easier for those with not so good intentions to justify doing horrific things to them.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #764 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Adam Lanza DID NOT use an AR-15 in the Sandy Hook shooting.

 

He couldn't get an AR-15 of his own due to existing gun laws, so he had to kill his mother to steal hers. But he didn't use it. He left it in the car.

 

Very interesting that this is not being widely reported in the media.

 

Very interesting that gun control advocates continue to cite this shooting in their calls to ban so-called "assault weapons".

That story you posted has been proven to be incorrect, sadly- 

 

"The notion that Lanza didn't use an assault rifle to carry out his killings at Sandy Hook Elementary began as an erroneous report by the media in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Perhaps most notably, NBC News, citing federal and state officials, reported on Dec. 15 that there were "actually four handguns recovered from inside the school" and "apparently only handguns that were taken into the school."

NBC also incorrectly reported that an AR-15 was found in the trunk of Lanza's car.

NBC wasn’t the only one to misreport this information. CNN also incorrectly reported which weapon was found in Lanza's car. The New York Times, citing law enforcement officials, also reported that Lanza had used handguns in the shooting. (Interestingly, the Times got it right the first time by saying Lanza used a rifle.)

It's still unclear where that misinformation came from. State police spokesman Paul Vance told HuffPost it didn’t come from the Connecticut State Police; FBI spokesman Dan Curtin told HuffPost it didn't come from the Connecticut branch of the FBI, and neither NBC News or the Times returned a request for comment.

What is clear is that NBC News updated its report a few hours later to say that law enforcement officials had given out "conflicting" information. The outlet said it appeared Lanza may have only carried two handguns and that a rifle was "also found at the scene" -- information that later turned out to be true.

In spite of errors the media and law enforcement officials may have made in the hectic hours following the shooting, certain facts are now established. Here they are, in chronological order:

The day after the shooting, Chief Medical Examiner Wayne Carver said all the victims he had examined had been shot with a rifle at close range. The following day, Connecticut State Police spokesman Lt. Paul Vance said that "a Bushmaster AR-15 assault type weapon" with high capacity magazines was the weapon that was used "most of the time" during the shootings. That same day, Vance also sent HuffPost an email saying Lanza carried "many high-capacity clips" for the weapon.

The Connecticut State Police released a statement on Jan. 18 with the purpose of showing the public exactly which guns were found and where.

On Jan. 24, Vance, citing "conspiracy theorists" that were "trying to mucky up the waters," reiterated that Lanza had killed all of his victims with a semi-automatic rifle. Vance emailed HuffPost on Jan. 29 to confirm, again, that Lanza used a Bushmaster rifle in the school, that high-capacity magazines were also found in the school, and that the weapon found in the trunk of Lanza's car was a shotgun.

Hoax theorists point to a grainy video that appears to show law enforcement removing a weapon from the trunk of Lanza’s car. The video appears to have been shot from a helicopter, at night, and nothing in the video -- or anywhere else -- shows the gun to be anything except a 12-gauge shotgun, as the authorities have said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/11/sandy-hook-hoax-theories-explained-debunking-newtown-truther_n_2627233.html?utm_hp_ref=crime#weapon

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post #765 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

You may have the noblest of intentions, but implanted RFID chips are really no different than branded serial numbers. And the moment you start looking at individuals as numbers rather than living, breathing human beings, it's much easier for those with not so good intentions to justify doing horrific things to them.

Perhaps, but don't we already have NI numbers?

 

The fact is the government already has vast amounts of information on us due to our use of the internet. It's the way things are heading, so surely it's wise to try and make as many benefits from it as possible. 

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #766 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That story you posted has been proven to be incorrect, sadly- 

 

"The notion that Lanza didn't use an assault rifle to carry out his killings at Sandy Hook Elementary began as an erroneous report by the media in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Perhaps most notably, NBC News, citing federal and state officials, reported on Dec. 15 that there were "actually four handguns recovered from inside the school" and "apparently only handguns that were taken into the school."

NBC also incorrectly reported that an AR-15 was found in the trunk of Lanza's car.

 

An AR-15 is not an assault rifle.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #767 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

An AR-15 is not an assault rifle.

The AR-15 was originally designed for and used by the US military. A civilian version was later introduced that wasn't fully automatic, but is still capable of firing up to 60 rounds a minute. So while technically you're right, it still performs much like an assault rifle, which by the way have semi-automatic mode too. They can also be modified to be fully automatic. Lanza taped two thirty bullet magazines together so he could quickly reload. 

 

Firearms Training Unit Detective Barbara J. Mattson of the Connecticut State Police holds up a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle, the same make and model of gun used by Adam Lanza in the Sandy Hook School shooting, for a demonstration during a hearing of a legislative subcommittee reviewing gun laws, at the Legislative Office Building in Hartford, Conn., Monday, Jan. 28, 2013. The parents of children killed in the Newtown school shooting called for better enforcement of gun laws Monday at the legislative hearing. (AP Photo/Jessica Hill)

 

http://news.yahoo.com/newtown-parents-urge-enforcement-gun-laws-171101155.html

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post #768 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Perhaps, but don't we already have NI numbers?

 

The fact is the government already has vast amounts of information on us due to our use of the internet. It's the way things are heading, so surely it's wise to try and make as many benefits from it as possible. 

 

The government already has vast amounts of information on us, so we may as well let them have everything? Is that really your reasoning?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #769 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The AR-15 was originally designed for and used by the US military. A civilian version was later introduced that wasn't fully automatic, but is still capable of firing up to 60 rounds a minute. So while technically you're right, it still performs much like an assault rifle, which by the way have semi-automatic mode too. They can also be modified to be fully automatic. Lanza taped two thirty bullet magazines together so he could quickly reload. 

 

Firearms Training Unit Detective Barbara J. Mattson of the Connecticut State Police holds up a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle, the same make and model of gun used by Adam Lanza in the Sandy Hook School shooting, for a demonstration during a hearing of a legislative subcommittee reviewing gun laws, at the Legislative Office Building in Hartford, Conn., Monday, Jan. 28, 2013. The parents of children killed in the Newtown school shooting called for better enforcement of gun laws Monday at the legislative hearing. (AP Photo/Jessica Hill)

 

http://news.yahoo.com/newtown-parents-urge-enforcement-gun-laws-171101155.html

 

So stop calling it an assault rifle.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #770 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

So stop calling it an assault rifle.

I personally have no problem calling them high powered, rapid fire, hollow point, weapons of slaughter. If others get it wrong that's for them to learn.

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post #771 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The AR-15 was originally designed for and used by the US military. A civilian version was later introduced that wasn't fully automatic, but is still capable of firing up to 60 rounds a minute.

 

Not quite.

 

The AR-15 is a civilian semi-automatic version of the M-16 which has fully automatic, burst and semi-automatic modes. And the AR-15 cannot fire up to 60 rounds a minute. It tops out at about 12-15 per minute before it starts to cook the barrel. It does not perform like an assault rifle. You are misinformed.


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/11/13 at 5:05pm

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post #772 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Not quite.

 

The AR-15 is a civilian semi-automatic version of the M-16 which has fully automatic, burst and semi-automatic modes. And the AR-15 cannot fire up to 60 rounds a minute. It tops out at about 12-15 per minute before it starts to cook the barrel. It does not perform like an assault rifle. You are misinformed.

I certainly wasn't "wrong" so I'm glad you changed that to "not quite". ;-) Sounds much better!

 

First of all the AR-15 came before the M-16. The AR-15 was sold by ArmaLite to the US Navy, Army and Marine Corp. Colt bought it from ArmaLite, who were having financial problems, and renamed it the M-16. Later on the civilian version of the M-16 was sold as the AR-15, because Colt owned the name AR-15 after buying it from ArmaLite. See here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

 

All the standard fire rates I've seen for the AR-15 have it firing at 45-60 rounds per minute. Frankly I don't think they'd be anything like as popular as they are if they only fired 12-15 per minute as you say, before they became too hot to use. In fact the gun store owner in Texas that Piers Morgan interviewed and shot the AR-15 with, claims that the AR-15 he can legally shoot at 200 rounds a minute. Watch this video (you can start at 2.15 mins in if you prefer) and watch the next 3 or 4 mins at least. Then get back to me. Here's the video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P7uk9KVdMg

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post #773 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I certainly wasn't "wrong" so I'm glad you changed that to "not quite". ;-) Sounds much better!

 

But you were mostly wrong.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

First of all the AR-15 came before the M-16. The AR-15 was sold by ArmaLite to the US Navy, Army and Marine Corp. Colt bought it from ArmaLite, who were having financial problems, and renamed it the M-16. Later on the civilian version of the M-16 was sold as the AR-15, because Colt owned the name AR-15 after buying it from ArmaLite. See here- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

 

Yeah I can read Wikipedia too. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

All the standard fire rates I've seen for the AR-15 have it firing at 45-60 rounds per minute.

 

That may be an advertised rate. But everything I've read has there's no way you can sustain that rate of fire on that gun.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Frankly I don't think they'd be anything like as popular as they are if they only fired 12-15 per minute as you say, before they became too hot to use.

 

So now we're in the "I think" category of evidence. 1rolleyes.gif And it's not just about it becoming too hot to use, it's actually about damaging the firearm and jamming it.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

In fact the gun store owner in Texas that Piers Morgan interviewed and shot the AR-15 with, claims that the AR-15 he can legally shoot at 200 rounds a minute.

 

I don't know what that statement means. Legally? I'm talking about what it can do in physical reality.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Watch this video (you can start at 2.15 mins in if you prefer and watch the next 3 or 4 mins. Then get back to me. Here's the video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P7uk9KVdMg

 

How does that support your claim?


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/11/13 at 5:42pm

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post #774 of 1058

Of course you can do the same thing with a lot of other semi-automatic rifles. They are just heavier and harder to clean.

post #775 of 1058
This reminds me of people's misconceptions about motorcycles. "Ermahgerd he owns a Ducati?!?!!1"
post #776 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Maybe you want to live in a prison, but I don't. People like me just want to be left alone by people like you.

You already live in a more secure intellectual prison than any physical "prison" you are clamoring against.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #777 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

But you were mostly wrong.

 

 

 

Yeah I can read Wikipedia too. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

 

That may be an advertised rate. But everything I've read has there's no way you can sustain that rate of fire on that gun.

 

 

 

So now we're in the "I think" category of evidence. 1rolleyes.gif And it's not just about it becoming too hot to use, it's actually about damaging the firearm and jamming it.

 

 

 

I don't know what that statement means. Legally? I'm talking about what it can do in physical reality.

 

 

 

How does that support your claim?

All the major mass shootings recently in the US have involved AR-15's. It's perfectly legal to bump fire an AR-15 through your belt loop or by buying one of these. You can see why mass shooters like them so much- Warning- the following video is only 19 seconds long- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm1mBhLNT_s

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post #778 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

All the major mass shootings recently in the US have involved AR-15's.

 

Yes. And the all also have involved mentally ill people using them. Some or many of them may have also been using psychotropic drugs.


Edited by MJ1970 - 2/11/13 at 6:51pm

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post #779 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So now we're in the "I think" category of evidence. 1rolleyes.gif And it's not just about it becoming too hot to use, it's actually about damaging the firearm and jamming it.

Sure, they're more likely to jam and that could damage your weapon if it gets too hot for too long. But think about it though. These shooters typically have multiple weapons with lots of magazines and will fire to take out as many people as they can. They keep choosing AR-15's because they can fire rapidly and cause massive harm, including killing the police who have bullet proof vests on, without the need for a head shot. They'll fire a 30 round magazine with their AR then switch to a semi auto pistol, then back again. They can wipe out huge numbers of people in just a few minutes and they very frequently do. 

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post #780 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sure, they're more likely to jam and that could damage your weapon if it gets too hot for too long. But think about it though. These shooters typically have multiple weapons with lots of magazines and will fire to take out as many people as they can. They keep choosing AR-15's because they can fire rapidly and cause massive harm, including killing the police who have bullet proof vests on, without the need for a head shot. They'll fire a 30 round magazine with their AR then switch to a semi auto pistol, then back again. They can wipe out huge numbers of people in just a few minutes and they very frequently do. 

 

Yes. That's true.

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post #781 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Yes. And the all also have involved mentally ill people using them. Some or many of them may have also been using psychotropic drugs.

I agree. Why not try and tackle all three. Mental illness, drugs that create monsters and automatic firearms? The South African's got rid of apartheid in their country through general strikes and pressuring trading partners to stop trading with an apartheid regime, not by violence. The same would apply to the US if ever there really was a Hitler type trying to imprison or kill American's. Keep non-automatic weapons, but for the sake of preventing mass shootings, ban the rest. Sometimes a compromise is the best thing.

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post #782 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I agree. Why not try and tackle all three. Mental illness, drugs that create monsters and automatic firearms?

 

First, they are not using automatic firearms. Second, people have a right to own firearms.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Keep non-automatic weapons, but for the sake of preventing mass shootings, ban the rest.

 

First, it is extremely difficult for civilians to get automatic weapons. Second, people have a right to own firearms.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sometimes a compromise is the best thing.

 

 

Sometimes.

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post #783 of 1058

Amendment 18:Amendment 2::Amendment 21:Amendment what we desperately need.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #784 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

First, they are not using automatic firearms. Second, people have a right to own firearms.

 

 

 

First, it is extremely difficult for civilians to get automatic weapons. Second, people have a right to own firearms.

 

 

 

 

Sometimes.

Ok, semi-automatic is what I meant, because Reagan banned fully automatic already. But like that bumping video showed, a semi-automatic can be easily legally shot like a fully automatic. And even if it's not, like Piers Morgan demonstrated, it can be shot very rapidly as a semi-automatic.

 

I don't see these mass shootings slowing down unless semi-auto's are banned. The psychotropic drugs will keep messing more and more people up and the system will keep them in plenty of ammo and weapons. It's a choice American's have to make and the longer they leave it the more people will die.

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post #785 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Ok, semi-automatic is what I meant, because Reagan banned fully automatic already.

 

Actually, I believe it was long before that. In the 1930's I believe. And they aren't actually banned, but they are highly restricted and VERY expensive.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

And even if it's not, like Piers Morgan demonstrated, it can be shot very rapidly as a semi-automatic.

 

Dipshit didn't really show us anything we didn't know. He didn't reveal anything. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I don't see these mass shootings slowing down unless semi-auto's are banned.

 

Possibly not. That said these events are outliers to begin with.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The psychotropic drugs will keep messing more and more people up and the system will keep them in plenty of ammo and weapons.

 

"The system?!" What "system?"

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It's a choice American's have to make and the longer they leave it the more people will die.

 

Possibly. Possibly not.

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post #786 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Actually, I believe it was long before that. In the 1930's I believe. And they aren't actually banned, but they are highly restricted and VERY expensive.

 

 

 

Dipshit didn't really show us anything we didn't know. He didn't reveal anything. 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

 

Possibly not. That said these events are outliers to begin with.

 

 

 

"The system?!" What "system?"

 

 

 

Possibly. Possibly not.

No, Reagan banned them. Any fully automatic weapon that was made prior to 1986 and registered can still be sold on though. New fully automatics can't be made and that's why they're now so expensive to buy. In 1934 fully automatics were simply taxed and had to be federally registered- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act . The weapons included Type II weapons- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons

 

I mean by the system a country who's politicians, businesses and institutions often actively encourage the public to own semi-automatic weapons. Come to the UK and see how much the system encourages gun ownership if you don't believe me.

 

These mass shootings are outliers, but still significant and their rapidly increasing in frequency. What happens when 500 kids are gunned down? Nothing? They're still an outlier, but does that really matter? 

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post #787 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

No, Reagan banned them. Any fully automatic weapon that was made prior to 1986 and registered can still be sold on though. New fully automatics can't be made and that's why they're now so expensive to buy. In 1934 fully automatics were simply taxed and had to be federally registered- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act . The weapons included Type II weapons- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons

 

Okay. Whatever. The issues of when and who is a side issue here.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I mean by the system a country who's politicians, businesses and institutions often actively encourage the public to own semi-automatic weapons.

 

Okay.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Come to the UK and see how much the system encourages gun ownership if you don't believe me.

 

No thanks.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

These mass shootings are outliers, but still significant and their rapidly increasing in frequency.

 

No they aren't.

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post #788 of 1058
Amazing. Not a single "I was wrong about that." Or "thanks for clarifying that". Just four posts ago it mattered enough to MJ to claim that automatic weapons were banned in the 1930s. When he found out it was Reagan (honestly if he cares one twit about gun control laws he would have known that) suddenly the details don't matter.
post #789 of 1058

Isn't it typical, though?  I mean, both of us have graciously acknowledged being wrong when appropriate countless times.  Yet, even when it comes to glaringly obvious mistakes, certain contributors (and I use that word generously) to this board completely fail to do the same.  Hell, it was months of pulling teeth to get SDW to just admit that Romney's Jeep ad was somewhat misleading, yet he still adamantly refuses to call it a lie.  

 

MJ's response to Hands is utterly deplorable and deeply hypocritical.  It's completely unacceptable to glibly shrug off Hands' correction with a "whatever" right after MJ doubled down on "correcting" Hands.  The time sure fucking mattered when MJ thought he was right.  Now it doesn't matter when he's wrong.  What a load of horseshit.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #790 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sure, they're more likely to jam and that could damage your weapon if it gets too hot for too long. But think about it though. These shooters typically have multiple weapons with lots of magazines and will fire to take out as many people as they can. They keep choosing AR-15's because they can fire rapidly and cause massive harm, including killing the police who have bullet proof vests on, without the need for a head shot. They'll fire a 30 round magazine with their AR then switch to a semi auto pistol, then back again. They can wipe out huge numbers of people in just a few minutes and they very frequently do. 

Eh? AR-15 style rifles come in different calibers but I'm not aware that they are any more powerful than most hunting rifles. They are actually less powerful AFAIK. 

post #791 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I mean, both of us have graciously acknowledged being wrong when appropriate countless times.

 

Yes, 'cause when we think of you on this board, it's the word 'gracious' that immediately springs to everyone's mind.

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post #792 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Eh? AR-15 style rifles come in different calibers but I'm not aware that they are any more powerful than most hunting rifles. They are actually less powerful AFAIK. 

Given the carnage being caused by semi-automatic weapons if hunters give a damn about all these people shot at schools, colleges and cinemas, then surely it's not too much to ask of them that they not use semi-automatic weapons?  

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #793 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I mean, both of us have graciously acknowledged being wrong when appropriate countless times.

 

Don't lie, it makes you look foolish.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

MJ's response to Hands is utterly deplorable and deeply hypocritical.

 

Exaggerate much?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #794 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Given the carnage being caused by semi-automatic weapons if hunters give a damn about all these people shot at schools, colleges and cinemas, then surely it's not too much to ask of them that they not use semi-automatic weapons?  

 

Yes it is too much to ask.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #795 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I personally have no problem calling them high powered, rapid fire, hollow point, weapons of slaughter. If others get it wrong that's for them to learn.

You also think only government should be allowed to use your "high powered, rapid fire, hollow point, weapons of slaughter" and that it can be trusted to use them responsibly.

Sadly, historical precedent tells us otherwise.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #796 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Okay. Whatever. The issues of when and who is a side issue here.

 

 

 

Okay.

 

 

 

No thanks.

 

 

 

No they aren't.

It obviously wasn't a side issue for America's favourite gun grabber, the conservative's hero and shining light, Republican Ronald Reagan. Ban baby, ban! 

 

If you think these school, college, cinema, workplace etc mass shootings aren't increasing you're very wrong again. Here's a graph that shows just how much they've increased. Remember when you look at it, you're looking at real people dying practically always from semi-automatic rifles and semi-automatic handguns.

 

  http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #797 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It obviously wasn't a side issue for America's favourite gun grabber, the conservative's hero and shining light, Republican Ronald Reagan. Ban baby, ban! 

 

But it is a side issue here. The main point was that it is very difficult for civilians to obtain these firearms despite your repeated, incorrect, claims that people are wandering around with fully automatic weapons killing everyone. The dates and acts that led to this difficulty are a side issue and apparently, now, an attempt to score some sort of political shot ("America's favourite gun grabber, the conservative's hero and shining light, Republican Ronald Reagan"). 1rolleyes.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If you think these school, college, cinema, workplace etc mass shootings aren't increasing you're very wrong again. Here's a graph that shows just how much they've increased.

 

I didn't say they weren't increasing. I said "no" to your claim they are rapidly increasing in frequency. There's still not evidence that's true and that these are anything but outliers.

 

However, let's just grant your claim that they "rapidly increasing in frequency." That doesn't justify taking away firearms from innocent, law-abiding people. I just doesn't. People have a right to own firearms.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #798 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Yes it is too much to ask.

Then they need to be treated like children and have the law enforced to ban semi automatic hunting rifles so they behave responsibly.

 

Hunters hunt in the UK, but they can't hunt with semi-automatics. I know people who hunt and they love it, I'm sure they like knowing that their helping to reduce these massacres too, which practically always take place with semi-automatics.

 

Here's a great article to read-

 

When the Second Amendment to the American Constitution was framed in 1791, enshrining the right to bear firearms, it took rather longer to load a gun than it does today.

200 years ago, it took several minutes to reload a shotgun to fire one cartridge. On Friday, Adam Lanza fired at least 300 rounds with an assault rifle and two handguns in five minutes, before he shot himself as security moved in on him.

In 1791, he'd barely have had time to fire two cartridges in that time – and the individual firepower of those shots probably wouldn't have been enough to kill a human being.

Defenders of the American right to bear arms are invoking 18th century legislation to defend the use of 21st century weapons. Of course, people should be allowed to hunt but you don't need battlefield-level armoury to do it.

Contrary to popular belief, it's actually pretty easy to get a gun in Britain (albeit a lot harder than in America). And millions of people are licensed to use them in this country. It's not much harder getting a gun than getting a passport – which practically all adults have. All you need to do is fill in a form, get a referee to sign it, promise that you have no drink, drugs or mental health issues, and then have a friendly interview with a policeman from the firearms squad.

The big difference here is the sort of gun you end up getting. The vast majority of licensed weapons in this country are shotguns for shooting game. Of course you can kill people with them but it's really quite difficult – they're designed for firing at small, unprotected birds; not large, clothed human beings. And you can only fire two cartridges before you have to go through the laborious process of reloading.

There are exceptions of course – like Derrick Bird in Cumbria in 2010; or Michael Ryan, the Hungerford gun nut, armed with two semi-automatic rifles and a handgun, who killed 16 people (including his mother, just like Adam Yanza) in 1987.

But, on the whole, if a troubled, violent young man lashes out here, he would be unlikely to kill more than several victims before the police moved in. A ban on automatic and semi-automatic weapons in America would still respect the Second Amendment, and end up with many fewer gunshot victims."

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/harrymount/100067518/guns-kill-people-and-automatic-guns-kill-even-more-people/

 

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #799 of 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Then they need to be treated like children ... so they behave responsibly.

 

And here we have a summary of leftist ideology.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

When the Second Amendment to the American Constitution was framed in 1791, enshrining the right to bear firearms, it took rather longer to load a gun than it does today.

200 years ago, it took several minutes to reload a shotgun to fire one cartridge. On Friday, Adam Lanza fired at least 300 rounds with an assault rifle and two handguns in five minutes, before he shot himself as security moved in on him.

In 1791, he'd barely have had time to fire two cartridges in that time – and the individual firepower of those shots probably wouldn't have been enough to kill a human being.

Defenders of the American right to bear arms are invoking 18th century legislation to defend the use of 21st century weapons. Of course, people should be allowed to hunt but you don't need battlefield-level armoury to do it.

 

This is completely irrelevant but, predictably, the anti-gun-rights people keep going back to it time and again.

 

 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

A ban on automatic and semi-automatic weapons in America would still respect the Second Amendment

 

No it wouldn't.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

...and end up with many fewer gunshot victims."

 

Maybe.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #800 of 1058

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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