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CES 2013 expected to showcase 'embarrassingly large' smartphones - Page 5

post #161 of 193

There's no doubt that at times, sales are simply to get rid of stock.

 

As I pointed out, though, BOGOs don't really give a "free" phone... not even close.  It's just two phones, each at 1/2 of the usual UPFRONT downpayment.

 

Also, BOGOs require that BOTH lines have to be either new or ready for upgrade.   So a line subsidy is being used for both, and both require a two year contract which will pay back the carrier far more than the small amount they gave up for the lower phone sale.

 

Here are some numbers just for fun, to get us thinking about what happens behind the scenes:

 

  • iPhone = retail $650, or $200 with two year contract.
  • Note = retail $700, or $300 with two year contract.

 

Right away, we see that people are willing to pay $100 more upfront for the Note 2, even though the retail difference is only $50.   Now let's estimate what the carrier costs likely are:

 

  • iPhone = wholesale $650 - user $200  = $450 carrier subsidy (20 months to recoup)
  • Note = wholesale ~ $550 - user $300 = $250 carrier subsidy. (11 months to recoup)

 

Here the upfront cost is reversed.  Carriers pay more out of pocket for the Apple product, because it brings in customers who are only willing to spend up to $200.   (This high subsidy is why carriers want to push non-Apple products.   This is also why analysts worry that if carriers drop the subsidy model, Apple might be in real trouble in the US.)

 

Now, if Verizon were to do a BOGO on the Note (which they haven't yet), it would be something like this (leaving out wholesale discounts for buying more than the usual number of devices):

 

  • Note = wholesale $550 - user $150 = $400 carrier subsidy (17 months to recoup)

 

Still less to the carrier than the cost for an iPhone, AND they've locked in TWO subscribers for 24 months.

 

BOGO is more difficult for the iPhone, because with only $100 upfront, the carrier would not recoup their subsidy until right at, or slightly after, 24 months.

 

(Most phones wouldn't cost as much as the Note 2, btw, so BOGO would be even better a deal for the carrier.)

 

Source Notes:  Sprint has said subsidies are 40% higher for Apple than other makers.  AT&T has said it takes average 20 months to recoup subsidies for iPhone.  More details can be found in this profit analysis, among others.

post #162 of 193
Originally Posted by reefoid View Post
However, seeing as this part of the discussion was all based on a false declaration by yourself, its all irrelevant now.

 

False declaration my foot.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #163 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

The Galaxy Note 2 is already buy one get one free. Three months after launch. I love it.

Which was proved to be wrong.   So yes, false declaration your foot.

post #164 of 193
Originally Posted by reefoid View Post
Which was proved to be wrong.

 

No. Sorry. It is. 

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

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post #165 of 193
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post
You were wrong…

 

Because I'm not? Pretty simple. Verizon ad on TV. Again, I'll take a frigging picture of it next time I hear it on.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

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post #166 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Because I'm not? Pretty simple. Verizon ad on TV. Again, I'll take a frigging picture of it next time I hear it on.

 

I have to agree with gwmac.  So far,I've only seen an offer for BOGO on the flip case that goes with the Note 2 from Verizon.  If I recall right, it was a quick blurb after that Lebron James commercial.

 

Are you sure you didn't mishear?  If there really was a BOGO on the Note 2 itself, I would think it would be plastered all over Verizon's website.  They did it for the last few "big name" phones...

 

Not to mention that not a single one of the Android tech blogs have posted anything about BOGO for the Note 2.  And you know that they would jump all over that.


Edited by AsianBob - 1/7/13 at 11:38am
\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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post #167 of 193
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post
I have to agree with gwmac.  So far,I've only seen an offer for BOGO on the flip case that goes with the Note 2 from Verizon.  Are you sure you didn't mishear?  If there really was a BOGO on the Note 2 itself, I would think it would be plastered all over Verizon's website.  They did it for the last few "big name" phones...

 

It might just be a local promotion, too, but that's what it was.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #168 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

It might just be a local promotion, too, but that's what it was.

 

I'll willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but a Note 2 is too big of a big ticket item to have just a local promotion, in my opinion.  But Verizon has done weirder things...

 

Again, even if it were just local, I'd have expected the Android blogs to pick up on it.  When the Galaxy Nexus was about to release on Verizon, they picked up on select customers getting local-only flyers in the mail for immediate discounts and even moving upgrade dates up and were sharing the offer codes to see if they would work elsewhere.

\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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post #169 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

 

With due respect, no insult intended, I honestly think you may be the only person in the world who doesn't.

 

We get bigger TVs so we can sit farther away because TV size is a lower priority than room layout.

I don't even watch TV apart from Top Gear (UK) when it's on. Only use my TV for a bit of gaming and the controllers don't have very long leads so I don't need a big TV.

Well, in 4 or 5 years people will be lucky enough to be able to buy a 200" TV that can be put down the end of the garden to really free the room up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post


Bottom line: If Apple offered a larger screened phone... I would buy it instead of the smaller one.

May Apple release the 10" iPhone of your dreams and I hope your MC Hammer trousers come back into fashion.

post #170 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilution View Post

I don't even watch TV apart from Top Gear (UK) when it's on. Only use my TV for a bit of gaming and the controllers don't have very long leads so I don't need a big TV.

 

So then why the hell are you stating opinions about what's appropriate for others? That's like someone who doesn't cook poo-pooing a larger oven!

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilution View Post

May Apple release the 10" iPhone of your dreams and I hope your MC Hammer trousers come back into fashion.

 

The world is not a place of black/white absolutes. There is an infinite spectrum of compromises, one of which will be the absolute sweet spot, and all around it will exist a range called "close enough." There's a lot of room between a 4" 16:9 and your reductio ad absurdum case.

post #171 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilution View Post

May Apple release the 10" iPhone of your dreams and I hope your MC Hammer trousers come back into fashion.

 

What's with these pants comments?  I took a demo model of the Note 2 and put it in my pocket to see once and for all whether these "bigger pants" jokes held any water.  Sure it was slightly more visible than the iPhone 5, but it hardly required bigger pockets than what's standard for pants.  I didn't feel the Note 2 added any movement or sitting inconvenience.

\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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\Apple has always had competition. It's just been in its blind spot.
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post #172 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
It might just be a local promotion, too, but that's what it was.

 

It's okay even if not.  Sooner or later, all phones go on sale.

 

However, a BOGO deal is not used to get rid of excess phone stock.... that's what lower prices without restrictions are for... because it's not attractive to enough people.

 

BOGO's purpose is to get customers to extend or start TWO contracts at the same time, by offering something that seems too good to pass up.

 

This is very similar to the way BOGO is used in other retailing.  The idea is to get people in the door, so they buy other things.   It's not about making money on the BOGO items, or trying to get rid of undesired items.     To work, a BOGO deal has to be for an item that can still attract buyers.

post #173 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

It doesn't and at 5.5" the Note 2 is an extreme example. No one expects or even hopes for Apple to make a 5.5" iPhone and most of use would be satisfied with one in the range of 4.5" to possibly a max of 5" which is smaller than the Note II. They just can't stand the fact that some iPhone users have the audacity to challenge Apple's wisdom and suggest that a larger iPhone might actually be quite popular or that anyone would dare choose to pay $299 for an Android phone. 

 

Isn't the Note 2 doing better in overseas market where it's actually cheaper than the iPhone?

 

Aside from that I think the iPhone's screen size will gradually grow over time, but not until necessary technology catches up. One day I believe the entire front face of the phone will be screen and there will be no buttons or any other distractions whatsoever. We already see signs Apple is going in this direction with such patents as the "behind the screen" camera and earpiece.

 

Apple is going to wait till they can do a 5 inch screen iPhone right, and not come out with some bloated oversized phone in the mean time like everyone else is doing.

 

For now 4 inches is fine and they can squeeze a few more MM of screen space on the current body if they wanted too.

 

I personally feel we may see an iPhone Mini before we see a 4.5+ inch iPhone...

post #174 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

A hot pen tip? Either you're not referring to something that is readily available, or capacitive touch screens don't work the way you think it works. The only reason the current system seems pixel-accurate is the loupe, which isn't that efficient.
Apple files a LOT of patents, most of them don't become part of an Apple product.
I am saying what is availible, if you want a stylus then they sell them working with a iPad, the problem is it is usually expensive. When it fakes your finger by a hot pen tip or other technology.
post #175 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Hannah View Post

I am saying what is availible, if you want a stylus then they sell them working with a iPad, the problem is it is usually expensive. When it fakes your finger by a hot pen tip or other technology.

1) They are not expensive.

2) They aren't hot. It doesn't register body heat. It's capacitance that is measured.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #176 of 193
Not sure what everyone sees in these phablets. Personally, I would prefer a phone the size of a nano that can be remoted into by an iPad Mini, using bluetooth for the voice portion. With Siri being able to handle address book and dialing, it gives me maximum flexibility (carry just a bitty phone when only expecting calls, tying into a bigger more usable tablet when i am more stationary.)
post #177 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilution View Post

May Apple release the 10" iPhone of your dreams and I hope your MC Hammer trousers come back into fashion.

Is that an iPad in your pocket or are you happy to see me?

But seriously... bigger phones are everywhere. We laughed at Zoolander with his tiny phone... but all it needed to do was make phone calls.

Nowadays... smartphones are freakin' computers. And a larger screen is welcomed.
post #178 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilution View Post

May Apple release the 10" iPhone of your dreams and I hope your MC Hammer trousers come back into fashion.

Is that an iPad in your pocket or are you happy to see me?

Flat out happy!
post #179 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) They are not expensive.
2) They aren't hot. It doesn't register body heat. It's capacitance that is measured.
Ok obviously not all are expensive, as sais some are not, but a friend has had one for $70, which could be up to half the price of the device.I said other technology, the hot pen tip is something that could be a homemade idea, who cares it is a stylus.
post #180 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Hannah View Post

Ok obviously not all are expensive, as sais some are not, but a friend has had one for $70, which could be up to half the price of the device.I said other technology, the hot pen tip is something that could be a homemade idea, who cares it is a stylus.

1) At $70 this must have been a pretty impressive stylus. Surely you remember the make the model of such a pointlessly fancy object.

2) You really think this is expensive? http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/wireless/2407783011/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_cps_1_3_last

3) WTF is with these "hot pen tip" comments. There is no heat. It's CAPACITANCE. Is this more of you not understanding the technologies involved and not wanting to take 2 minutes to read up on them before chiming in as to how Apple is doing it wrong?

4) Here is the most expensive I can find and it's only $50. Do you why it's so expensive? Because it also contains a pen and laser pointer in a very high quality design. This is not the norm. This is the exception. The high end of the basic capacitance stylus is around $15. http://blog.laptopmag.com/ipad-stylus-review-roundup-the-best-pen-for-your-tablet?slide=2

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #181 of 193
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
3) WTF is with these "hot pen tip" comments. There is no heat. It's CAPACITANCE. Is this more of you not understanding the technologies involved and not wanting to take 2 minutes to read up on them before chiming in as to how Apple is doing it wrong?

 

Maybe it's stolen.

 

*crickets*

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

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post #182 of 193

Perhaps he means an active digitizer pen, not just a dumb stick stylus.

 

While some Android devices have Wacom or N-Trig active pen support (in addition to capacitance for fingers), Apple devices do not (yet).

 

Many iPad users wanted more accurate pen input, which has led to aftermarket solutions.  E.g.

 

Byzero Sudio Digital Pen = $160 - $200 (!)

 

Aiptek MyNotePen = $129

 

EFUN Digital Pen = $75

 

iPen Kickstarter project = $50.

post #183 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Perhaps he means an active digitizer pen, not just a dumb stick stylus.

If that's what Curtis Hannah meant, then he/she is way off. A proper digitizer pen isn't a "hot pen tip". Repeating an incorrect statement several times doesn't make it correct, it's worse when repeating it despite being corrected.
Edited by JeffDM - 1/9/13 at 7:29am
post #184 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Perhaps he means an active digitizer pen, not just a dumb stick stylus.

While some Android devices have Wacom or N-Trig active pen support (in addition to capacitance for fingers), Apple devices do not (yet).

Many iPad users wanted more accurate pen input, which has led to aftermarket solutions.  E.g.

Byzero Sudio Digital Pen
= $160 - $200 (!)

Aiptek MyNotePen = $129

EFUN Digital Pen = $75

iPen Kickstarter project = $50.

A bit OT but I would love for Apple to include a digitizer in their devices. I wouldn't expect them to include a stylus with their devices but it would open the door for the option. Of course, having world class APIs I would expect. If the Galaxy Note has anything I like it's the Wacom digitizer.

Any idea on the cost, thickness, power use, or any other obstacle that a digitizer has been being added to a touchscreen?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #185 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) At $70 this must have been a pretty impressive stylus. Surely you remember the make the model of such a pointlessly fancy object.

2) You really think this is expensive? http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/wireless/2407783011/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_cps_1_3_last

3) WTF is with these "hot pen tip" comments. There is no heat. It's CAPACITANCE. Is this more of you not understanding the technologies involved and not wanting to take 2 minutes to read up on them before chiming in as to how Apple is doing it wrong?

4) Here is the most expensive I can find and it's only $50. Do you why it's so expensive? Because it also contains a pen and laser pointer in a very high quality design. This is not the norm. This is the exception. The high end of the basic capacitance stylus is around $15. http://blog.laptopmag.com/ipad-stylus-review-roundup-the-best-pen-for-your-tablet?slide=2
first of all it was a real pen, and one so that is and bought with iPad 3G the first week, and I am saying I have faked a stylus by a hot pen tip literally, and this method is $10 at max vs a $30 stylus or 50 or 70 at a point if you want other features, there is no reason to complain, it is probably the cheapest method using a hot pen tip.
post #186 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


A bit OT but I would love for Apple to include a digitizer in their devices. I wouldn't expect them to include a stylus with their devices but it would open the door for the option. Of course, having world class APIs I would expect. If the Galaxy Note has anything I like it's the Wacom digitizer.

Any idea on the cost, thickness, power use, or any other obstacle that a digitizer has been being added to a touchscreen?

 

The two main pen system providers these days are Wacom and N-Trig.

 

N-Trig's digitizer consists of thin antenna traces or wires on top of the screen.   They claim that their new combination capacitance (finger) and pen controller can be put into a device for about the same price as a capacitance controller alone.

 

Wacom's digitizer grid sits underneath the LCD screen, so it does not interfere with the visuals.  Wacom is more expensive than N-Trig, but is also usually regarded as better.  (Less likely to skip input.)

 

I'm not sure of power requirements for the screen antenna system.  The pens run off either batteries, inductive power, or quick charge capacitors.

 

The cost is supposedly anywhere from $50 to $200 per device (lowest N-Trig to highest Wacom), depending on screen size etc.

 

PS.  Current iPad third party active pens use IR and/or ultrasound locating methods.


Edited by KDarling - 1/10/13 at 6:48pm
post #187 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Hannah View Post

first of all it was a real pen, and one so that is and bought with iPad 3G the first week, and I am saying I have faked a stylus by a hot pen tip literally, and this method is $10 at max vs a $30 stylus or 50 or 70 at a point if you want other features, there is no reason to complain, it is probably the cheapest method using a hot pen tip.

Why do you keep calling it a hot pen tip? You know what hot pen tips are used for? Wood burning crafts.
Edited by JeffDM - 1/10/13 at 11:56am
post #188 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

The cost is supposedly anywhere from $50 to $200 per device (lowest N-Trig to highest Wacom), depending on screen size etc.

1) Thanks for the technology lesson. (Does that read sarcastically? It's not suppose to.)

2) Wow! That is a crazy high price per unit. At those prices I wouldn't expect to see them in an iDevice. I knew it used to be expensive but I had hoped that the Galaxy Note was a sign that the cost had dramatically decreased. Any word on which digitizer or accuracy of the Note devices?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #189 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Why do you keep calling it a hot pen tip? You know what hot pen tips are used for? Wood burning crafts.

 

Maybe they're not a native English speaker, and/or have somehow translated "reactive/ electric pen tip"  to "hot pen tip".

 

At least, that's what it sounds like to me.   Or perhaps they just misheard their friend.

 

But yeah, it'd be good to know why :)


Edited by KDarling - 1/10/13 at 1:40pm
post #190 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Maybe they're not a native English speaker, and/or have somehow translated "reactive/ electric pen tip"  to "hot pen tip".

At least, that's what it sounds like to me.   Or perhaps they just misheard their friend.

But yeah, it'd be good to know why 1smile.gif

Yeah, maybe. I edited my comment to tone it down a bit. But even that doesn't explain it, that's a poor way of describing a digitizer pen of any kind I'm aware of.
Edited by JeffDM - 1/10/13 at 12:23pm
post #191 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) Thanks for the technology lesson. (Does that read sarcastically? It's not suppose to.)

2) Wow! That is a crazy high price per unit. At those prices I wouldn't expect to see them in an iDevice. I knew it used to be expensive but I had hoped that the Galaxy Note was a sign that the cost had dramatically decreased. Any word on which digitizer or accuracy of the Note devices?

 

Wacom's 24" display + graphics tablet cintiqs retail for around $2500, and complaints of dead pixels or other issues have kept me away. I've had problems with their recent products. The intuos 3s had a cord pinch issue. It would pinch where the usb cable exited the tablet, and fixing this meant sending it into their service department at a 10-15 working day turnaround after they receive it. The 4 had a weak solder connection. The 5 no longer has a removable surface. I've avoided it as I've always worn out surfaces in the past. I didn't wish to deal with that kind of thing in a more expensive capacity. If we saw something like a touch screen imac with a really robust third party stand and a compatible Wacom digitizer pen, I'd be extremely interested. The wacom stand is rugged and minimizes any kind of bowing when pressure is applied. It's a nice step over their older ones, and being able to angle a display for drawing is invaluable. I have difficulty maintaining smooth vertical strokes, as they involve a lot of outward motion. It's much more comfortable angled. I tested this with the intuos on my lap, but obviously I couldn't work that way. Typically I get around this by rotating the canvas in whatever program I'm using at the time. I think Wacom could sell tons of digitizer pens for devices like this if they offer decent ergonomics and some improvement in accuracy over competing devices. They've never been inexpensive, and yet they've maintained sales for a lot of years.

post #192 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Why do you keep calling it a hot pen tip? You know what hot pen tips are used for? Wood burning crafts.
No, I did not that is nice to know however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Maybe they're not a native English speaker, and/or have somehow translated "reactive/ electric pen tip"  to "hot pen tip".

At least, that's what it sounds like to me.   Or perhaps they just misheard their friend.

But yeah, it'd be good to know why 1smile.gif
Here is why, I am sure there are a few other ways yet I prefer heating up a pen tip myself, and using it ok, no need to complain on what I meant.
post #193 of 193

Somehow, the industry tends to choose a direction and sheepishly keep to it. Doesn't mean Apple has to do the same.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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