or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › Samsung nixes plans for Windows RT tablets in US, citing 'modest' demand
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Samsung nixes plans for Windows RT tablets in US, citing 'modest' demand - Page 2

post #41 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell View Post


I both agree and disagree.  I don't think the traditional Windows UI necessarily dooms a tablet to failure, much to the contrary, I think if you're vastly exceeding the cost of a full-on notebook, the full capabilities of Windows (the full desktop and the ability to run all you're x86 applications) is very important. 
This flies in the face of real failure with respect to the Windows UI on tablets. Frankly I'm not sure how you can make such a statement considering how many times Windows UI on tablets has failed.
Quote:
I know iPads sell like hotcakes, but I, and a lot of others, simply aren't willing to spend upwards of $800 for a glorified smartphone. 
If you see the iPad as a glorified smart phone, there is probably little that I can say to deal with that bit of ignorance. That is not to say that iPad is a replacement for a laptop running a conventional OS but the key here is that it was never intended to do that. It is a new way for people to solve their computing needs.
Quote:
Which is why, despite some of their decisions, I think Microsoft is on the right track with Windows 8 - provide a tablet friendly UI for basic and on-the-go tasks, and the full desktop for when you need to be productive with the "real" applications you need to use.  I know there's some overlap between "apps" and traditional "applications", but there's no denying that when real work needs to be done, there's no replacement for full desktop applications.
Windows RT needs a massive overhaul to ever be competitive in the marketplace. It is basically junk code that will quickly develop a very negative opinion in the publics eyes.
Quote:

Clearly what's dooming Windows RT is that it's essentially nearly all the cost of a full Windows Pro system with none of the benefits - unlike iOS or Android tablets, the available app selection is extremely limited and limiting.  So you don't have access to your traditional applications, you don't have access to much in the way of apps, and the whole Metro UI is essentially barely out of beta status. 
RT is junk in other words. Frankly I don't understand your need to promote junk even after you realize above that RT is junk.
Quote:

On the other hand, give it a generation or two, and I think Windows RT will be gone and Windows Pro will make a very compelling OS for truly dual-purpose tablets -
The concept of a dual purpose tablet makes no sense at all. RT is so screwed up it will take the programming staff at MS another two years to iron it out to the point developer will take an interest. That gives Apple two years to evolve iOS in the same manner they have been over the last three years on iPads. It will give Apple a chance to implement new software features supported by new hardware.

Don't get me wrong I honestly think that iCloud sucks terribly. There are more than few other issues with iOS but as I said Apple continuously evolves iOS. In a very literal sense iOS gets better with each revision.
Quote:
a touch friendly UI when it's used as a tablet, drop it into a dock and you have a full desktop OS for when you need those capabilities. 

What is the point? A tablet by definition doesn't have the screen size to run full desktop apps well, nor does it have the memory and hardware support many desktop apps require. You obviously can't grasp why people make use of tablets in the 7-10 inch range, it isn't to replace a desktop that is for sure. Apple is on the right path here even if the implementation of some features leaves a lot to be desired. In a nut shell they have distilled down what is required when you are on the go and made it relatively easy to keep in sync with your primary machine.
post #42 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

This flies in the face of real failure with respect to the Windows UI on tablets. Frankly I'm not sure how you can make such a statement considering how many times Windows UI on tablets has failed.

In all fairness, we don't know that.

We know that Windows tablets have not been successful. But we can't be sure that it was the UI that failed. Perhaps it was the hardware. (My daughter had a Windows tablet for school and it was huge, heavy, and clunky).
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #43 of 128
Anyway you look at Surface, it is simply overpriced, lack of app library and an untested mobile OS. The real question is, does one really need to use Microsoft Office this badly???
post #44 of 128
What is the killer app or reason for existence for Surface RT? For the Surface Pro?
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #45 of 128

 

 

Sure. And NUMBERS tell the tale. So far, they've been dismal for the Surface.

post #46 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

This may confuse some because underneath the UI there is the core of OS/X. They certainly peeled away much cruft and unneeded baggage but much of the underlying OS is the same as or very similar to OS/X. This is a very positive thing for software developers, especially if you have your code decoupled from the User Interface. Developers can at times write identical code (or copy and past) for each platform to access core features.

Now obviously some things have changed significantly, the process scheduler for one. The UI is obviously different but the API is not unfamiliar to Apple developers.
Apple didn't build iOS from the ground up either. They however made far more wise decisions about what was needed to get the first products out the door. It has very much been a two way street at Apple, the original iOS borrowed heavily from Mac OS and then later Mac OS was pruned to remove cruft and incorporate ideas and code from iOS. As hardware has become more capable Apple has built back into iOS more and more capability again at times borrowing from Mac OS/X.

The most interesting thing here is that iOS has evolved very rapidly as hardware capabilities have increased. Reading the developer release notes for each version of iOS is at times very interesting, it seems like every release comes with more stuff ported from Mac OS/X. IOS has become far more capable while leaving the UI virtually the same.

Don't I know it but I've given up that battle expect for specifying Mac OS X in my comment even though Apple has also given up the Mac qualifier in the name as of Mountain Lion.

IIRC the way we got to iOS is like this. Apple took Mac OS X, stripped it out everything it didn't need which means it's Darwin OS plus a great many frameworks and other aspects both need, plus a 32-bit ARM compatible kernel. From there they built a new UI framework called CocoaTouch from the ground up.

To me, that's the less confusing part. When the iPhone was first announced there was no official name for the OS but the Apple community quickly adopted the 'i' branding to call it iOS. I seem to recall the first updates were referred to as firmware updates, which is laughable considering that they were hundreds of megabytes. I think it was at WWDC in 2008 that we saw the banners that read OS X iPhone and OS X Leopard but that didn't last long as it soon became iPhone OS. It wasn't until after the iPad was announced, launched and had been a success that they changed iPhone OS to iOS.

I'm torn by using OS/X because it's not following the OS/2 designation but it does allow a subtle change in how one might see the OS even though there might only be two people in the world right now that would read OS X and OS/X and think of two very different things. I wonder if a Taxonomic Rank of Operating Systems could be created?

Ignoring code as a preliminary requirement so that C, C++, and Objective-C are equivalent to proteins, molecules and enzymes. The building blocks of "life".

Example:
Kingdom: POSIX
Phylum: XNU
Class: Mach
Order: BSD
Family: Darwin
Genus: CocoaTouch
Species: iOS

Too much of a geeky, science crossover? 1biggrin.gif

edit: Sorry, Carl Linnaeus, I think this looks better with the fake Latinizing of the names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisTheGeek View Post

I'll notify Next of Kin!

Just be clear, you are aware the Surface is the next Kin, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

What is the killer app or reason for existence for Surface RT? For the Surface Pro?

That's simple. Apple's iPad s killing their WinPC licensing.
Edited by SolipsismX - 1/12/13 at 5:39pm

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

Goodbyeee jragosta :: http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/160864/jragosta-joseph-michael-ragosta

Reply

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

Goodbyeee jragosta :: http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/160864/jragosta-joseph-michael-ragosta

Reply
post #47 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

This may confuse some because underneath the UI there is the core of OS/X. They certainly peeled away much cruft and unneeded baggage but much of the underlying OS is the same as or very similar to OS/X. This is a very positive thing for software developers, especially if you have your code decoupled from the User Interface. Developers can at times write identical code (or copy and past) for each platform to access core features.

Now obviously some things have changed significantly, the process scheduler for one. The UI is obviously different but the API is not unfamiliar to Apple developers.
Apple didn't build iOS from the ground up either. They however made far more wise decisions about what was needed to get the first products out the door. It has very much been a two way street at Apple, the original iOS borrowed heavily from Mac OS and then later Mac OS was pruned to remove cruft and incorporate ideas and code from iOS. As hardware has become more capable Apple has built back into iOS more and more capability again at times borrowing from Mac OS/X.

The most interesting thing here is that iOS has evolved very rapidly as hardware capabilities have increased. Reading the developer release notes for each version of iOS is at times very interesting, it seems like every release comes with more stuff ported from Mac OS/X. IOS has become far more capable while leaving the UI virtually the same.

Don't I know it but I've given up that battle expect for specifying Mac OS X in my comment even though Apple has also given up the Mac qualifier in the name as of Mountain Lion.

IIRC the way we got to iOS is like this. Apple took Mac OS X, stripped it out everything it didn't need which means it's Darwin OS plus a great many frameworks and other aspects both need, plus a 32-bit ARM compatible kernel. From there they built a new UI framework called CocoaTouch from the ground up.

To me, that's the less confusing part. When the iPhone was first announced there was no official name for the OS but the Apple community quickly adopted the 'i' branding to call it iOS. I seem to recall the first updates were referred to as firmware updates, which is laughable considering that they were hundreds of megabytes. I think it was at WWDC in 2008 that we saw the banners that read OS X iPhone and OS X Leopard but that didn't last long as it soon became iPhone OS. It wasn't until after the iPad was announced, launched and had been a success that they changed iPhone OS to iOS.

I'm torn by using OS/X because it's not following the OS/2 designation but it does allow a subtle change in how one might see the OS even though there might only be two people in the world right now that would read OS X and OS/X and think of two very different things. I wonder if a Taxonomy of Operating Systems could be created?

Ignoring code as a preliminary requirement so that C, C++, and Objective-C are equivalent to proteins, molecules and enzymes. The building blocks of "life".

Example:
Kingdom: POSIX
Phylum: XNU
Class: Mach
Order: BSD
Family: Darwin
Genus: CocoaTouch
Species: iOS

Too much of a geeky, science crossover? 1biggrin.gif

edit: Sorry, Carl Linnaeus, I think this looks better with the fake Latinizing of the names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisTheGeek View Post

I'll notify Next of Kin!

Just be clear, you are aware the Surface is the next Kin, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

What is the killer app or reason for existence for Surface RT? For the Surface Pro?

That's simple. Apple's iPad s killing their WinPC licensing.

I meant from a buyer's perspective -- not from MS's perspective.


Ha... Sol Linnaeus...

Edit: Or is that Sol/X? Sol X?


My best friend in HS Mom's name was Linnae... A direct descendent... She went by the name of Peg.
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 1/12/13 at 5:39pm
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #48 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I meant from a buyer's perspective -- not from MS's perspective.

I should have put a smiley face at the end to denote my attempt at humor.

Quote:
Ha... Sol Linnaeus...

My best friend in HS Mom's name was Linnae... A direct descendent... She went by the name of Peg.

I'm a huge fan of anthropology*. It's the one subject I read more of than technology. I'm a huge fan of Linnaeus's efforts in designing a modern method to cataloging every living thing on earth in a standard way and yet that jerk Melvil Dewey** is a known name and Linnaeus's isn't. There were people long before Linneaus who were on the right track but without the growing idea and then later adoption of Darwin's On the Origin of Species the classifications were mentally separate entities with no comparative starting point. There are some funny ones. Well, ones I think are funny. The giraffe, for example, has the species of camelopardalis as its appearance rsembled that of both a camel and a leopard and I've read that was believed then the most likely way in which animal had evolved.



* Linguistics is a branch of anthropology.
** I have nothing against Dewey or his decimal system. Just being flippant for the sake of it.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

Goodbyeee jragosta :: http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/160864/jragosta-joseph-michael-ragosta

Reply

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

Goodbyeee jragosta :: http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/160864/jragosta-joseph-michael-ragosta

Reply
post #49 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I meant from a buyer's perspective -- not from MS's perspective.

I should have put a smiley face at the end to denote my attempt at humor.

Quote:
Ha... Sol Linnaeus...

My best friend in HS Mom's name was Linnae... A direct descendent... She went by the name of Peg.

I'm a huge fan of anthropology*. It's the one subject I read more of than technology. I'm a huge fan of Linnaeus's efforts in designing a modern method to cataloging every living thing on earth in a standard way and yet that jerk Melvil Dewey** is a known name and Linnaeus's isn't. There were people long before Linneaus who were on the right track but without the growing idea and then later adoption of Darwin's On the Origin of Species the classifications were mentally separate entities with no comparative starting point. There are some funny ones. Well, ones I think are funny. The giraffe, for example, has the species of camelopardalis as its appearance rsembled that of both a camel and a leopard and I've read that was believed then the most likely way in which animal had evolved.



* Linguistics is a branch of anthropology.
** I have nothing against Dewey or his decimal system. Just being flippant for the sake of it.

Re: your new sig... I got rid of the COWS... But I refuse to give up my LAMB...
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #50 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

many predicted the Surface RT would be DOA - and they were right. of course MS will never disclose the actual sales numbers. so few in the fawning media are going to call the RT the outright huge flop that it is.

and rather than give up, MS will come out with a V.2 RT model later this year. it will fix whatever issues can be fixed. but it won't matter. too late. maybe it will be tightly integrated with the upcoming new XBox too - that would be its best chance. but that is still a niche market.

the world just doesn't need a third media tablet platform, especially a second "walled" one like Apple's. the OEM's like Samsung and the web companies like Amazon don't want MS to control their tablets' OS. instead they want to do that themsevles. so more and more they skin or even fork Android with their own proprietary setups.

so MS may keep pusing out these ARM tablets for a few more years to try to hold some niche position in the media tablet game. but it really has no where to go. you could call it an MS "hobby." but it's just the Zune story all over again.

Unfortunately, I actually I had some hope that the Microsoft tablet would be more successful. A tablet monoculture of iPad apps is not a good thing. Android is an utter failure as anything other than a "disposable" device, so developers don't want to target it.

The fact that pretty much nobody wanted the Windows UI to change after Windows 98/2000, and microsoft ignored it (you can turn off the themeing system in Win7 and see the Win2K UI) points back to how much inertia needs to be overcome by the existing windows user base in order to get something changed... or maybe the occams razor answer of "Nobody who is used to Windows wants the OS to change"

The last significant UI change was between Windows 3.1 and 95, back in 1994. So 18 years of this and Microsoft wants to make everyone learn something new. If Win8's Metro UI is just yet another layer over this UI, then people will just turn it off instead.

Remember, that Microsoft eventually hid DOS in WindowsME to ween people off of using it. We still need to see people weened off of 32-bit Windows apps, and so far the inertia has been largely in the wrong direction (with most software developers not even bothering to write 64bit apps or games.) We're not going to see any substantial innovation on Windows without Microsoft forcing people to. Hence Metro.

On the Apple side, it just made more sense to make a clean-break from Mac OS Classic to OS X, and from PPC to x86. Yes the backwards compatibility was there for about 3 versions, but after that, it was removed. OS X's next clean break is with 64-bit (boot)-only with 10.8. So I'd almost expect 32-bit x86 to be nixed entirely by 10.10
post #51 of 128
great, the idea of another mickey mouse OS is mind bending - now if only Android and iOS would vanish or just stay home.
 
we just tested our first batch of Dell Latitude 10 at work and they what a tablet should be - non of this watered down mobile trash. If I had one more marketing kid come into my office complaining that their crap iPad made presentation was rejected I was going to loose my hair from aggravation.
 
If your trash toy app can not meet our implementation manual requirements you can not use it... Unless you are doing print material for some idiotic bar at Williamsburg a PDF is not a print ready file... what on earth do they teach at school these days?
 
windows 8 pro (until Apple makes an OSX tablet) or go play with the other untalented kids.
post #52 of 128
Who cares about Windows RT. OEM's will make cheap low powered android tablets and convertible Windows 8 laptops. And the iPad/MacBook Air will still be more popular than either of those options. 1biggrin.gif

Of course I noticed the usual suspects like c|net and ZDNET are having a love affair with the Surface Pro right now, In fact the c|net review said it was everything they want. Really? I have a hard time believing the device is absolutely flawless.
post #53 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

many predicted the Surface RT would be DOA - and they were right. of course MS will never disclose the actual sales numbers. so few in the fawning media are going to call the RT the outright huge flop that it is.

and rather than give up, MS will come out with a V.2 RT model later this year. it will fix whatever issues can be fixed. but it won't matter. too late. maybe it will be tightly integrated with the upcoming new XBox too - that would be its best chance. but that is still a niche market.

the world just doesn't need a third media tablet platform, especially a second "walled" one like Apple's. the OEM's like Samsung and the web companies like Amazon don't want MS to control their tablets' OS. instead they want to do that themsevles. so more and more they skin or even fork Android with their own proprietary setups.

so MS may keep pusing out these ARM tablets for a few more years to try to hold some niche position in the media tablet game. but it really has no where to go. you could call it an MS "hobby." but it's just the Zune story all over again.

Unfortunately, I actually I had some hope that the Microsoft tablet would be more successful. A tablet monoculture of iPad apps is not a good thing. Android is an utter failure as anything other than a "disposable" device, so developers don't want to target it.

The fact that pretty much nobody wanted the Windows UI to change after Windows 98/2000, and microsoft ignored it (you can turn off the themeing system in Win7 and see the Win2K UI) points back to how much inertia needs to be overcome by the existing windows user base in order to get something changed... or maybe the occams razor answer of "Nobody who is used to Windows wants the OS to change"

The last significant UI change was between Windows 3.1 and 95, back in 1994. So 18 years of this and Microsoft wants to make everyone learn something new. If Win8's Metro UI is just yet another layer over this UI, then people will just turn it off instead.

Remember, that Microsoft eventually hid DOS in WindowsME to ween people off of using it. We still need to see people weened off of 32-bit Windows apps, and so far the inertia has been largely in the wrong direction (with most software developers not even bothering to write 64bit apps or games.) We're not going to see any substantial innovation on Windows without Microsoft forcing people to. Hence Metro.

On the Apple side, it just made more sense to make a clean-break from Mac OS Classic to OS X, and from PPC to x86. Yes the backwards compatibility was there for about 3 versions, but after that, it was removed. OS X's next clean break is with 64-bit (boot)-only with 10.8. So I'd almost expect 32-bit x86 to be nixed entirely by 10.10

I think that MS is doomed by the inertia of its own successes -- Windows and Office... They do not have the will or ability to change directions.

They will continue to serve the customers in the current PC market -- as that market dwindles... The Surface/WinPhone solutions will not stem the tide -- rather they will accellerate the process -- if they have any effect at all.

The primary growth and breakthroughs will come from the appliance computers like the iPad and iPhone (tablet and smartphone) -- which will bring computer solutions to the masses.

It matters not if millions still [think they] need WinTel Office and legacy apps -- when billions will be using appliance computer apps.

Within 5 years, every child in school will have an appliance computer as their primary or only computer.

The die is cast... "Windows Everywhere" and the supporting devices just don't matter!
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #54 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

great, the idea of another mickey mouse OS is mind bending - now if only Android and iOS would vanish or just stay home.
 
we just tested our first batch of Dell Latitude 10 at work and they what a tablet should be - non of this watered down mobile trash. If I had one more marketing kid come into my office complaining that their crap iPad made presentation was rejected I was going to loose my hair from aggravation.
 
If your trash toy app can not meet our implementation manual requirements you can not use it... Unless you are doing print material for some idiotic bar at Williamsburg a PDF is not a print ready file... what on earth do they teach at school these days?
 
windows 8 pro (until Apple makes an OSX tablet) or go play with the other untalented kids.

That reads like you think iOS as an OS is incapable of having software can create and show good presentations. Care to elaborate or explain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think that MS is doomed by the inertia of its own successes -- Windows and Office... They do not have the will or ability to change directions.

I agree with you on principle but disagree with you on the specifics.

I think MS is doomed by their own myopicy*, apathy, fear and hubris. I think this is a result of their early and amazing success with Windows but I don't think that such success means they will fail later on. They could careless and stupid; now they are paying that price in a very, very long and hard way. Sometimes I think it might be better to have been Palm because the fall was so short. This fall is going to be long and excruciating.



* I made an adjective word into a noun word.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

Goodbyeee jragosta :: http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/160864/jragosta-joseph-michael-ragosta

Reply

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

Goodbyeee jragosta :: http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/160864/jragosta-joseph-michael-ragosta

Reply
post #55 of 128
Without MS office, Microsoft would have hit the junk heap when vista was excreted. With so many cheaper alternatives for WP, MS is treading on very thin ice. If Google can get their Chrome OS out and to the masses, Microsoft will inevadably go the way of the Dodo. It's only people's reliance on windows that stop this from happening. As soon as they realise they don't need it, they are finished. Their fanboys will deny this until its dying day.
post #56 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell View Post



I both agree and disagree.  I don't think the traditional Windows UI necessarily dooms a tablet to failure, much to the contrary, I think if you're vastly exceeding the cost of a full-on notebook, the full capabilities of Windows (the full desktop and the ability to run all you're x86 applications) is very important.  I know iPads sell like hotcakes, but I, and a lot of others, simply aren't willing to spend upwards of $800 for a glorified smartphone.  Which is why, despite some of their decisions, I think Microsoft is on the right track with Windows 8 - provide a tablet friendly UI for basic and on-the-go tasks, and the full desktop for when you need to be productive with the "real" applications you need to use.  I know there's some overlap between "apps" and traditional "applications", but there's no denying that when real work needs to be done, there's no replacement for full desktop applications.

Clearly what's dooming Windows RT is that it's essentially nearly all the cost of a full Windows Pro system with none of the benefits - unlike iOS or Android tablets, the available app selection is extremely limited and limiting.  So you don't have access to your traditional applications, you don't have access to much in the way of apps, and the whole Metro UI is essentially barely out of beta status. 

On the other hand, give it a generation or two, and I think Windows RT will be gone and Windows Pro will make a very compelling OS for truly dual-purpose tablets - a touch friendly UI when it's used as a tablet, drop it into a dock and you have a full desktop OS for when you need those capabilities. 

 

You may have been born yesterday, but many of us were not. Windows RT is not Microsoft's first rodeo. Bill Gates has a fetish for tablets. When he ran Microsoft, he did his damnedest to make a go of tablets. Gates released tablet computers based on Windows extant. This was years before Apple's iPad showed Microsoft how to do the job correctly. With nothing to compete against them, tablets based on traditional Windows were dismal failures. Given a choice between a Windows tablet computer and nothing, buyers chose nothing. Nothing is better than Windows tablets—literally.

post #57 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me View Post

You may have been born yesterday, but many of us were not. Windows RT is not Microsoft's first rodeo. Bill Gates has a fetish for tablets. When he ran Microsoft, he did his damnedest to make a go of tablets. Gates released tablet computers based on Windows extant. This was years before Apple's iPad showed Microsoft how to do the job correctly. With nothing to compete against them, tablets based on traditional Windows were dismal failures. Given a choice between a Windows tablet computer and nothing, buyers chose nothing. Nothing is better than Windows tablets—literally.

Yup the convertible tablets advertised today aren't much different from the convertible laptops of 10 years ago.

A friend of mine had a convertible laptop running XP that was so cool at the time. I remember wondering why Apple didn't have one.
post #58 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

great, the idea of another mickey mouse OS is mind bending - now if only Android and iOS would vanish or just stay home.
 
we just tested our first batch of Dell Latitude 10 at work and they what a tablet should be - non of this watered down mobile trash. If I had one more marketing kid come into my office complaining that their crap iPad made presentation was rejected I was going to loose my hair from aggravation.
 
If your trash toy app can not meet our implementation manual requirements you can not use it... Unless you are doing print material for some idiotic bar at Williamsburg a PDF is not a print ready file... what on earth do they teach at school these days?
 
windows 8 pro (until Apple makes an OSX tablet) or go play with the other untalented kids.

That reads like you think iOS as an OS is incapable of having software can create and show good presentations. Care to elaborate or explain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think that MS is doomed by the inertia of its own successes -- Windows and Office... They do not have the will or ability to change directions.

I agree with you on principle but disagree with you on the specifics.

steveI think MS is doomed by their own myopicy*, apathy, fear and hubris. I think this is a result of their early and amazing success with Windows but I don't think that such success means they will fail later on. They could careless and stupid; now they are paying that price in a very, very long and hard way. Sometimes I think it might be better to have been Palm because the fall was so short. This fall is going to be long and excruciating.



* I made an adjective word into a noun word.

Here's something that you may not know...

The "management" that brought success to Microsoft was not Bill Gates, Paul Allen or Steve Ballmer... Rather, Jon Shirley!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Shirley


Oddly, the history of Jon Shirley's tenure as COO of MS has largely been rewritten -- elided as if he were a non-entity.

Jon was COO of MS from 1983-1990.. 7 years,,,,. The formative years where MS gained market domination.

Like Mike Markkula at Apple,, Jon Shirley brought the skill and perspective of a "businessman" to MS.

Gates was "wet behind the ears"... or "wet under the arms"... while Shirley brought legitimacy trust/respect and stability To MS.

The Shirley years were the apex... It has been downhill ever since.

Gates and Ballmer are posers.
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 1/12/13 at 11:59pm
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #59 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misa View Post

Unfortunately, I actually I had some hope that the Microsoft tablet would be more successful. A tablet monoculture of iPad apps is not a good thing. Android is an utter failure as anything other than a "disposable" device, so developers don't want to target it.

Rewriting history, I see. Remember that, before 2010, Microsoft virtually had the tablet market all to themselves. It was a "tablet monoculture" of Windows for Pen Computing. And these tablets ran all kinds of desktop apps, including the vaunted and flaunted Microsoft Office (which I consider overrated, but that's another thread). And yet I don't see you complaining about Microsoft's tablet "monoculture." And, no, it wasn't a good thing: as far as usability goes, they promised more than they could deliver. Being Pentium based and power hungry didn't help, but the Pen Computing UI and device weight were atrocious and always made them feel like compromised laptops, rather than fulfill some vision of usable & ubiquitous portable computing.

On the other hand, Apple's supposed "tablet monoculture" which you dismiss as somehow "not a good thing" was created by we the consumers who overwhelmingly voted for the success of this platform with our non-subsidized dollars. Out of all the choices available: iPad, Android, and Windows tablets, most consumers picked iPad, creating said "monoculture." It's a reflection of free market success, not the only choice available. That's a good thing.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #60 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell View Post



I know iPads sell like hotcakes, but I, and a lot of others, simply aren't willing to spend upwards of $800 for a glorified smartphone.  

 

Might I suggest a Smart Mobile OS instead of a glorified smartphone? Due to the fact that if it was not for iOS, smartphones, nor tables, would look anything like they do today. Again the reason people claim iPad is a glorified smartphone is only because of what smartphones are capable of today only because of what iOS has brought to the table. 

 

If the iPad was released first, then the iPhone would only be a shrunk down version of a tablet. 

 

I have said it many times before and will say it over and over again. The reason why iPad is so popular is because Apple understands people. They understand that most everyone does not want their desktop in the palm of their hands, but rather, certain functions available everywhere they go. I don't need Adobe Illustrator on my iPad as I don't plan on doing that level of work on a tablet. I don't plan on running Final Cut on my iPad for the same reasons. I can't imagine doing all my banking on a small touchscreen. If I need to do that level of work, I want a keyboard and a good size screen. 

 

When I am out, and don't want the weight of a notebook, then I also don't plan on doing the level of work requiring a notebook. M$, and their followers, just refuse to understand that, and that is why M$ products continue to fail. 

post #61 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post


I think one day technology will catch up and we'll see fuller desktop experiences on light weight tablets like the iPad.

The Surface Pro with Windows 8 is going to weigh more than some laptops and be pretty thick and chunky.

That's why we don't yet see a desktop class OS on a lightweight tablet because currently it just isn't feasible.

True, but this is already starting to happen. Note how you get to edit the same Numbers spreadsheet or Pages document on both the iPad and a Mac? It's not perfect and there are still some kinks, but it's pretty darn close! So, the desire to make tablets as productive as laptops/desktops is there. Slowly, it's getting to the point where you can use any machine to accomplish the same goal. Now, running the actual OS may be a different story, but "it's the apps, stupid!" (not calling you stupid, you know, right? 1wink.gif )

post #62 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

I think one day technology will catch up and we'll see fuller desktop experiences on light weight tablets like the iPad.

The Surface Pro with Windows 8 is going to weigh more than some laptops and be pretty thick and chunky.

That's why we don't yet see a desktop class OS on a lightweight tablet because currently it just isn't feasible.

I think the screen size of tablets will always be a limiting factor to give a full desktop experience. The paradigm of a tablet experience shouldn't really be desktop eccentric anymore. I mean apps should eventually be as complex as desktop tablets but the manipulation, UI, functional aesthetics and UX needs to be totally rethought for a touch screen tablet just how the iPad has apps written from the ground up. For Microsoft to still keep the traditional desktop in Windows RT was a really backwards and useless move. Personally I think they should have called the OS 'Surface OS' and even their line of Phones and 'Surface Phone' to differentiate an entirely product class.
post #63 of 128

Not according to the teens in my house - Apple rules, Surface sucks.

post #64 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

It was already doomed the day the demo'd it.

 

Because MS is run by a CLOWN, and the board doesn't care. 

How true! Nothing like the "blue screen of death" right during the demo (ok, not the actual blue screen, but it froze just the same). And my 12-year old still can't get over the "developers, developers, developers" psychotic chant... Priceless!

post #65 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

Might I suggest a Smart Mobile OS instead of a glorified smartphone? Due to the fact that if it was not for iOS, smartphones, nor tables, would look anything like they do today. Again the reason people claim iPad is a glorified smartphone is only because of what smartphones are capable of today only because of what iOS has brought to the table. 

If the iPad was released first, then the iPhone would only be a shrunk down version of a tablet. 

I have said it many times before and will say it over and over again. The reason why iPad is so popular is because Apple understands people. They understand that most everyone does not want their desktop in the palm of their hands, but rather, certain functions available everywhere they go. I don't need Adobe Illustrator on my iPad as I don't plan on doing that level of work on a tablet. I don't plan on running Final Cut on my iPad for the same reasons. I can't imagine doing all my banking on a small touchscreen. If I need to do that level of work, I want a keyboard and a good size screen. 

When I am out, and don't want the weight of a notebook, then I also don't plan on doing the level of work requiring a notebook. M$, and their followers, just refuse to understand that, and that is why M$ products continue to fail. 

Good point. Apple even said that at the original iPad announcement... a device that fits between your smartphone and laptop.

Microsoft, on the other hand, is trying to combine the tablet and laptop into one device with the Surface Pro. It sounds good in theory... but your old desktop programs don't quite work the same using touch as the primary interface... and 11.6" is a little small to be your primary display.

Sure... you can use the tiny trackpad on the keyboard cover... or hook up an external monitor when you're at your desk.

But why not just keep the 15" laptop you've been using? That's where the idea of the Surface Pro falls apart for me.

Do we think companies will start deploying 11.6" Surface Pros instead of traditional laptops? Do employees want that?

Again... it sounds good... carrying one device instead of a laptop and iPad. But sometimes convergence isn't all it's cracked up to be.
post #66 of 128
I am currently on a business trip in China, I have been in Shenzhen (yup where they make everything for the world) for 3 weeks now. Talking to over 100 factories owner. They all make iPhone accessories.

Let me tell you what I see with my own eyes

A. Chinese people don't want cheap iPhone. Those who want cheap iPhone can't even afford those 999 yuan cheapo knock-off android phone (So even the cheap in Apple standard is a month salary for them). And everyone who rush off to buy iPhone from Hong Kong (they released there earlier than in China) don't care about the price tag. Because these are the people who would queue up at Chanel (I have photos!!!) and drop 100,000 yuan a day for couple handbags. They don't want ANYONE to have an iPhone - apart from them.

B. Accessories makers don't want cheap iPhone - they hate samsung and motorola (and many other cheapo phone makers) - because their phone is hard to make money off. There is literally a few (yup no more than 10) models for Samsung phone accessories. But iPhone accessories? Fill up 3 giant mall with literally thousands of shops. They all thankful to Apple release strategy. Make their life so much easier.

C. China Mobile is the worst mobile company in the world. I bought one of their Pay as you go phone card earlier this year (this is the second time I am in China in 9 months). I start getting calls from Pin An insurance (another state own giant). I ask them how they get my number and they said - my phone record indicated that I am their prime customer candidate, what ? Phone record? how did you get it? they just hang up.

D. China Mobile is huge - over 700 million customers BUT 95% of those customer are using crapping keypad phone (Farmer who don't spend more than 10 yuan a month). Number sometime means very little, unless you can really filter it correctly. On the other hand, just one percent of their customers buy iPhone (its happening right now) that is 7 million hand set sale for Apple. And you can get iPhone 4 for around $290 here (contract free!) and even cheaper in Hong Kong. Plenty of people I know finally dumping their Android crap and buy a 4 or 4S instead.

That's it for now. My next stop will be the capital (I actually stop over in Beijing but no time to walk around). Beijing and Shanghai is the true indication of what the big trend is happening in China. When I was in Shanghai earlier this year. Everywhere I go (especially underground) all I see is iPhone. Shenzhen is mixture. Surprisingly I see more S3 in Hong Kong. I think there is a lot todo with Samsung aggressive shop present in the Southern China.
post #67 of 128

ZUNE 2.0.

post #68 of 128

AH hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha,

 

Surface RT = Zune 2.0  

 

Bye Bye Surface RT.

 

Teen agers don't exactly know everything, they certainly don't run IT staff for corporations do they?  They just have XBox mentality, because the Teens that like Surface are XBox users, so they are already used to the simple Surface GUI.

post #69 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

Microsoft is the victim of its own past success.

 

I think Microsoft is above all the victim of poor technical craftsmanship. They never were able to create a software architecture that was robust under change. The fact that the bad architecture sold so well added to that problem. But the problem they face comes from a combination of two things:

  1. Not focusing on User Experience as a driver.
  2. Being very weak on architecture and unwilling to disrupt their own cash cow to make it better

 

This has always been so. Gates at Microsoft was a brilliant business strategist but a mediocre technologist and had no feeling for user experience at all.

 

Apple, on the other hand, has worked hard since Jobs returned at building a basic software architecture and they are not afraid to work on the fundamentals. I found it always ironical that Apple was being chastised for being 'just marketing'. At Apple with Jobs at the helm, the products (being engineered for user experience) created a fanatical following that could be exploited by Apple. At Apple, the product drives marketing, at Microsoft, marketing drives the products (remember Cairo?). Because of the brilliant business strategies by Gates (which, admitted, turned into illegal practices in the end), they created a monopoly. The move to mobile and especially to multi-touch disrupted their model.

 

I expect Microsoft to be around very long, based on the fact that many of their business systems (Exchange, Office (especially Excel), SharePoint, Active Directory) are deeply embedded in medium to large business.

post #70 of 128
This article is missing important information, because Samsung already sells "pc tablets", which have a weight similar to an iPad, but with specs and price closer to the MacBook Air, and runs a full version of Windows 8. It's true you don't target the same audience at such price, but I believe that's the near future of mobile computing: Cheap devices with limited OSs (Android, iOS), and more expensive ones running complete operating systems (OSX, Linux, Windows) at a price similar to a MacBook Air.
post #71 of 128
Just a clarification about my last post: I was talking about the Samsung Ativ Pro. I certainly see no market for a Windows RT device when you have the Ativ Pro, which runs Windows 8.

I'd like a touch version of OSX running on a keyboard-less MacBook Air, but I'm not sure if it will happen, because I see Apple trusts iOS concepts more than OSX concepts, and if we ever see a touch OSX, it will be iOS
post #72 of 128

I think this is the right move by Samsung. Intel are making good progress reducing the power requirements of x86. The non-RT tablets will be *the* MS tablet very soon.

post #73 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

AH hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha,

Surface RT = Zune 2.0  

Bye Bye Surface RT.

Teen agers don't exactly know everything, they certainly don't run IT staff for corporations do they?  They just have XBox mentality, because the Teens that like Surface are XBox users, so they are already used to the simple Surface GUI.

I disagree with the comments about teenagers. If it were really true that teenagers were abandoning Apple products and found Windows RT to be superior, that would be a very important piece of information - and would be very bad news for Apple. Teenagers already drive billions of dollars of electronics spending and will be in positions where they drive more in not too many years.

I just don't believe it. Some no-name group with no history of successful predictions of this type (and their one public pronouncement turned out to be wrong) says Apple is Doomed. Let's just say that without knowing how they reached this conclusion and who is paying them, it would be wise to question their conclusions.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #74 of 128

Whatever the intent or design philosophy, the problem with Microsoft is always the execution.

 

They could do so many things.  They could have just get their backyard cleaned up first.  i.e., Streamline, simplify, improve windows 8 to the point that it will be a pleasant experience for the millions of customers to own, maintain and use a windows PC.  This would at least slow the defection from Windows PC to IPAD.

 

If Microsoft wants to create a touch-based OS, the whole OS UI should be touch-based friendly.  No..they just created a half-hearted overlay and people discovered everything behind the overlay is still the same old UI which is not touch friendly. 

 

Looks like Microsoft decided to get into the tablet market really late and rush themselves by releasing a half-baked OS. 

post #75 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisTheGeek View Post

I'll notify Next of Kin!

agreed!

 
post #76 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Connell View Post



I both agree and disagree.  I don't think the traditional Windows UI necessarily dooms a tablet to failure, much to the contrary, I think if you're vastly exceeding the cost of a full-on notebook, the full capabilities of Windows (the full desktop and the ability to run all you're x86 applications) is very important.  I know iPads sell like hotcakes, but I, and a lot of others, simply aren't willing to spend upwards of $800 for a glorified smartphone.  Which is why, despite some of their decisions, I think Microsoft is on the right track with Windows 8 - provide a tablet friendly UI for basic and on-the-go tasks, and the full desktop for when you need to be productive with the "real" applications you need to use.  I know there's some overlap between "apps" and traditional "applications", but there's no denying that when real work needs to be done, there's no replacement for full desktop applications.

Clearly what's dooming Windows RT is that it's essentially nearly all the cost of a full Windows Pro system with none of the benefits - unlike iOS or Android tablets, the available app selection is extremely limited and limiting.  So you don't have access to your traditional applications, you don't have access to much in the way of apps, and the whole Metro UI is essentially barely out of beta status. 

On the other hand, give it a generation or two, and I think Windows RT will be gone and Windows Pro will make a very compelling OS for truly dual-purpose tablets - a touch friendly UI when it's used as a tablet, drop it into a dock and you have a full desktop OS for when you need those capabilities. 


Provided Microsoft's brand survives those years. That's far from obvious given how pervasive Android+iPad are.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

Reply

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

Reply
post #77 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisely View Post

Whatever the intent or design philosophy, the problem with Microsoft is always the execution.

They could do so many things.  They could have just get their backyard cleaned up first.  i.e., Streamline, simplify, improve windows 8 to the point that it will be a pleasant experience for the millions of customers to own, maintain and use a windows PC.  This would at least slow the defection from Windows PC to IPAD.

This did this once - with Windows XP (I don't count Windows 95 because too much of it was simply built on top of earlier versions). With XP (and the NT it was based upon), they essentially started from scratch and built a new system from the ground up. It took longer than they probably expected for it to become mainstream, but when you look at its longevity, it was clearly one of their most successful products ever. Unfortunately, they didn't go far enough. XP isn't modular enough (too many things can affect other things) and as they've piled more crap on top of it, it has become less viable.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure they have the time to do that again, at least as far as RT is concerned. Throwing out the whole mess and starting with a clean sheet of paper as Apple did with OS X would take years (just as it took Apple years to get to the point where the platform was stable and efficient enough to spin off iOS).
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #78 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

I'd like a touch version of OSX running on a keyboard-less MacBook Air, but I'm not sure if it will happen, because I see Apple trusts iOS concepts more than OSX concepts, and if we ever see a touch OSX, it will be iOS

 

Apple doesn't believe that, in the future, cars and airplanes will eventually become the same thing.

If "touch OSX = iOS", then it's already here.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #79 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelchu View Post

...
C. China Mobile is the worst mobile company in the world. I bought one of their Pay as you go phone card earlier this year (this is the second time I am in China in 9 months). I start getting calls from Pin An insurance (another state own giant). I ask them how they get my number and they said - my phone record indicated that I am their prime customer candidate, what ? Phone record? how did you get it? they just hang up.
...

I'll bet China Mobile's desire to do things like this is the biggest obstacle to a deal with Apple.
post #80 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Apple doesn't believe that, in the future, cars and airplanes will eventually become the same thing.
If "touch OSX = iOS", then it's already here.

That's pretty much true.

I just hope that Apple makes iOS more like OS X. It's nice seeing features move from iOS to OS X but when will we see more foundational practical features move from OS X to iOS?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPad
  • Samsung nixes plans for Windows RT tablets in US, citing 'modest' demand
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPad › Samsung nixes plans for Windows RT tablets in US, citing 'modest' demand