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Apple's record profits contrasted with Amazon's hopes to turn a profit

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
Apple's profits for fiscal 2012 reached above $40 billion, making it the only tech company to ever reach that benchmark. In fact, it's a feat only ever matched by oil giant Exxon Mobil.

Apple's financial performance invites comparisons with other companies such as Amazon, which has taunted the iPad maker with a rival business plan oriented around ad and content sales, rather than seeking to earn profits primarily on hardware.

A report by Bloomberg writer Mark Gimein contrasted the two companies, noting that while Apple reported quarterly earnings of $13.5 billion this winter, Amazon has only reported a total of $5 billion in earnings spanning from 2003, the first year it turned a profit, through the end of 2011, the full last year it has reported earnings.

In the previous quarter, Amazon actually lost $274 million, but Gimein states the company is "expected to turn a profit" for 2012.

"By conventional metrics," Gimein writes, "Amazon?s earning are so low that it?s almost senseless to talk about them."

He added, "Apple makes so much money that investors are leery of whether it can continue growing. In stark contrast, Amazon has made so little that, paradoxically, it continues to hold out the prospect of limitless growth."

Amazon has been around since 1997. Its Kindle-branded tablet efforts long predated the iPad, having been introduced in late 2007. But its two year lead in tablet-sized mobile devices, followed by three years of direct competition with the iPad, haven't come anywhere close to matching Apple's performance in mobile hardware. Amazon won't report how many Kindles have sold, but its tablet business isn't resulting in Apple-style profits.

Money from content?

Amazon embarked upon an effort to undercut Apple's iTunes song sales with its own discounted MP3 store in late 2007. Five years later, Amazon still has a relatively small music business limited to nine countries, compared to Apple's world leading online music store now available in 119 countries.

Two years ago, Amazon fractured Google's Amazon tablet platform to introduce a rival to Apple's iOS App Store with the same branding, in order to sell software content to a series of Android-based devices. However, it has not been able to consistently turn a profit doing so. Amazon operates in six countries; Apple's App Store is available in 155.

Apple reported $2.1 billion in revenues from iTunes in the winter quarter, but the company has regularly described its iTunes-related online services as designed to operate as an enhancement to its hardware business, without needing to turning a significant profit. Amazon isn't turning a significant profit on content sales either, but it's also not profiting from hardware.

That calls into question the widely held hope that advertising and content sales will be able to fund competitive efforts to develop mobile products to rival the iPod, iPhone and iPad, whether those efforts involve Android or not.

Amazon is scheduled to report its winter quarter results Tuesday January 29.
post #2 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

Seriously though, what was the point of this article?

I suppose to show a disparity in how the companies are viewed. Apple makes record profits and has about a 10% net profit growth average per day compared to the same quarter the previous year and yet it's deemed a failure but all Amazon has to do is actually be in the black this quarter to win. Apple makes more profit on iTunes Store with a goal of trying to break even than Amazon makes for their entire business but that doesn't seem to matter. That's quite an imbalance.

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post #3 of 41
thank-you Daniel & Mark. Big Amazon user since 97, great company...but ponzi economics/valuations
post #4 of 41
A person can only take so much cognitive dissonance.
post #5 of 41
Consider this - Jeff Bezos is reported to have a net worth of $25B. That is twice as much as the height of Steve Jobs's net worth, even after he sold Pixar. That just highlights the contrast between how the two companies are perceived.
post #6 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Consider this - Jeff Bezos is reported to have a net worth of $25B. That is twice as much as the height of Steve Jobs's net worth, even after he sold Pixar. That just highlights the contrast between how the two companies are perceived.


Is that true? That is indeed upside down.

post #7 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I suppose to show a disparity in how the companies are viewed. Apple makes record profits and has about a 10% net profit growth average per day compared to the same quarter the previous year and yet it's deemed a failure but all Amazon has to do is actually be in the black this quarter to win. Apple makes more profit on iTunes Store with a goal of trying to break even than Amazon makes for their entire business but that doesn't seem to matter. That's quite an imbalance.

They don't even have to be in the black. Heck, they lost hundreds of millions last quarter, but yet, the stock keeps rising.

 

With the current evaluation, all of the investors will be long dead before it ever reaches the ridiculous evaluation that's assigned to it.

 

This is from Dec. 2012

 

 

Apple's earnings were up and the stock went down. Amazon reported a quarterly loss and the stock went up.

The result is a pair of PE ratios too far apart to show on a linear graph. Amazon's twelve-month trailing PE is 2,766.93. Apple's is 13.06.

Because PE is a measure of earnings over time, you can think of it as representing the number of years required to pay back a stock's purchase price (ignoring inflation, earnings growth and the time value of money).

Put another way, if it takes Apple 13 years to pay back your initial investment, it will take Amazon nearly three millennia.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/11/03/amazons-price-to-earnings-ratio-is-now-2767-apples-is-13/

 

And since Apple made far too much money this past quarter, and Wall Street seems to have a hard on for losers and companies who lose money, their P/E is probably even much lower now.

 

post #8 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Consider this - Jeff Bezos is reported to have a net worth of $25B. That is twice as much as the height of Steve Jobs's net worth, even after he sold Pixar. That just highlights the contrast between how the two companies are perceived.

Good and interesting point. Note that it's actually connected but has Amazon even made $25 billion in earnings since its inception? Apple will make that in just under two consecutive quarters.

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post #9 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Apple 
[" url="/t/155623/apples-record-profits-contrasted-with-amazons-hopes-to-turn-a-profit#post_2264322"][...]

The result is a pair of PE ratios too far apart to show on a linear graph. Amazon's twelve-month trailing PE is 2,766.93. Apple's is 13.06.

[...]

Put another way, if it takes Apple 13 years to pay back your initial investment, it will take Amazon nearly three millennia.

[...]

Note that as of closing today Amazon's P/E is 3,657.04.

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post #10 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Good and interesting point. Note that it's actually connected but has Amazon even made $25 billion in earnings since its inception? Apple will make that in just under two consecutive quarters.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, Amazon has only reported 5 billion in earnings, and that spans their entire existence.

post #11 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Note that as of closing today Amazon's P/E is 3,657.04.

 

Anyone who uses the argument that on a forward looking basis Amazon has the potential for greater profits than Apple should have their head examined.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #12 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Anyone who uses the argument that on a forward looking basis Amazon has the potential for greater profits than Apple should have their head examined.

I think you assume to much. First I'd check to see if one has an attached head at all and if it's stuck up one's ass. 1wink.gif
Edited by SolipsismX - 1/24/13 at 5:40pm

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post #13 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Unless I'm reading it wrong, Amazon has only reported 5 billion in earnings, and that spans their entire existence.

 

You are reading it correctly!  Last year was the first year that Amazon made money since it was founded!   

post #14 of 41
Patience, people, patience. It's like karma. It eventually -- measured in months and years, not lifetimes -- catches up with you. Markets do not stay foolish forever.

What's the hurry, unless you need your wealth right now?
post #15 of 41

Originally Posted by "Apple ]["
They don't even have to be in the black. Heck, they lost hundreds of millions last quarter, but yet, the stock keeps rising.

With the current evaluation, all of the investors will be long dead before it ever reaches the ridiculous evaluation that's assigned to it.

This is from Dec. 2012
Apple's earnings were up and the stock went down. Amazon reported a quarterly loss and the stock went up.
The result is a pair of PE ratios too far apart to show on a linear graph. Amazon's twelve-month trailing PE is 2,766.93. Apple's is 13.06. 

Because PE is a measure of earnings over time, you can think of it as representing the number of years required to pay back a stock's purchase price (ignoring inflation, earnings growth and the time value of money). Put another way, if it takes Apple 13 years to pay back your initial investment, it will take Amazon nearly three millennia.


http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/11/03/amazons-price-to-earnings-ratio-is-now-2767-apples-is-13/

And since Apple made far too much money this past quarter, and Wall Street seems to have a hard on for losers and companies who lose money, their P/E is probably even much lower now.

 

Actually, you not only have to adjust Apple's P/E for the drop in share price, but also it is not uncommon to remove the cash from the calculation. Apple's forward, cash adjusted P/E is around 7. IOW, investors are saying that if Apple's profits don't grow at all, Amazon only has to increase its profits by 50,000% to reach the same P/E.

Absolutely insane.

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post #16 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckalec View Post

thank-you Daniel & Mark. Big Amazon user since 97, great company...but ponzi economics/valuations

I usually buy my music from iTunes but this Christmas I was able to buy over 500 songs (not Christmas music) for around $16 on Amazon. That included 16 top albums of 2012. It wasn't as easy as iTunes, but it wasn't that hard either. I'm not even an Amazon "Plus" (or whatever it's called) member.

post #17 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

I usually buy my music from iTunes but this Christmas I was able to buy over 500 songs (not Christmas music) for around $16 on Amazon. That included 16 top albums of 2012. It wasn't as easy as iTunes, but it wasn't that hard either. I'm not even an Amazon "Plus" (or whatever it's called) member.

Really? How did you do that?  

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post #18 of 41

another great example of current bizarre market and tech web nonsense is comparing today's MS quarterly report with yesterday's Apple report.

 

Apple reports YOY slight gain in profit on large gain is sales, and the response is: Doom! with 12% one day drop in stock price. Apple P/E now at 10.2. websites foam at the mouth over Apple's "problems," never mind its accurately reporting big sales of new products.

 

MS reports YOY slight dip in profit on slight drop in sales, and the response is: Good! with stock price unchanged. MS P/E now 14.9. websites barf fawning assurances that MS is ok (because it shipped 60 million W8 licenses at launch period 35%-75% off discount prices), never mind refusing to say how many Surface RT's were sold (a total flop).

 

so, ok, let's suppose Apple is no longer a "growth" stock beloved by speculators and is now merely an investment stock like MS has been for some years. so if the MS P/E is an acceptable valuation for an investment stock, then Apple stock should be at $657 today, not $450.

 

what we have here folks is an outbreak of mass hysteric idiocy. you didn't know you could catch that shit through the web, did ya?

post #19 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post


what we have here folks is an outbreak of mass hysteric idiocy.

Thank you. I believe this is a newly named disease of our tiime. Yes it is Internet and media based.

It afflicts the high and the low, WSJ and Forbes and Marketplace and NPR, all turned into lunatics.

Gruber's Question of the Age refers to it: "What exactly is it about Apple that causes people to lose their minds?"

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/10/01/cohan-jackass

I know of only one comparable historical period when mass hysteric idiocy held sway: the Weimar Republic in Germany in the 20s and early 30s.

Ominous, but if we find the cause maybe we can find the cure.
Edited by Flaneur - 1/25/13 at 2:48am
post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Gruber's Question of the Age refers to it: "What exactly is it about Apple that causes people to lose their minds?"

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/10/01/cohan-jackass

Exactly. The reports about Apple are so incredibly biased that it's incredible. You'd think that they were on the brink of bankruptcy from reading what most of the media is saying about them instead of being the most profitable company on the planet - and still growing.
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post #21 of 41
Seems like Jeff Bezos acquired more money than Amazon! And it was really bad of amazon to screw up Google's android platform, I feel bad for them.. but not by a whole lot.
post #22 of 41
I really like Amazon. Fantastic customer service- and prime is absolutely fantastic- blows netflix out of the water for less $. If only Apple TV streamed it.......

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post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

 

Anyone who uses the argument that on a forward looking basis Amazon has the potential for greater profits than Apple should have their head examined.

 

I think the belief must be that although Amazon is not making money now, by underselling everyone online and offline they'll eventually put everyone else out of business and then be able to make piles of money because they're the only place to shop and don't have to sell half their merchandise at a loss any longer. Whether that's rational or not, it's hard to say, but, since they appear to have friends at DoJ, at least for now, investors aren't worried about anti-trust action in at least the near term.

post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Exactly. The reports about Apple are so incredibly biased that it's incredible. You'd think that they were on the brink of bankruptcy from reading what most of the media is saying about them instead of being the most profitable company on the planet - and still growing.

I haven't depressed myself with much of the insanity. I did see that the NY Times tried to do a balanced approach on the front page yesterday, but Marketplace on APM/NPR took the very stupid, smartass route, no surprise: "Mighty Apple has struck out," riffing on "Casey at the Bat.." Laura Sidell, NPR's Silicon Valley reporter, said with a straight face that Apple "missed analysts' expectations."

It ought to be considered Low Journalism to even mention analysts' expectations with a straight face in business reporting. Seriously.

Am I, or are we, making too much of a deal over this? No, because the Apple story is the one unqualified success story of the era, the one clear reason for believing that Silicon Valley and the U.S. has something clearly legitimate (sorry HP, Facebook and Google) and desirable to contribute to the world.

And that success story, which defines our present age of this technological revolution, is getting trashed by reasons of insanity. It's got to stop. Gruber should stop laughing about it. Not to rag on him, he's always calling them out, but it really is time to start a campaign against this treachery.

Insofar as Apple represents the new global knowledge community, enabled by decent technology, it's treasonous to madly and gratuitously sabotage their legitimate progress. A crime against humanity and evolution.
post #25 of 41

To make sense of Amazon's numbers, look up what their free cash flow is each year.  For 2011, their net operating cash flow was 3.9 billion, they had a decent ROE, and they bought back shares in 2012.  To look simply at P/E ratios is to see a very small portion of the picture.  

post #26 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

I think the belief must be that although Amazon is not making money now, by underselling everyone online and offline they'll eventually put everyone else out of business and then be able to make piles of money because they're the only place to shop and don't have to sell half their merchandise at a loss any longer. Whether that's rational or not, it's hard to say, but, since they appear to have friends at DoJ, at least for now, investors aren't worried about anti-trust action in at least the near term.

Amazon wins because of infrastructure.  If you think they're simply a retail business it's no wonder you don't understand them.  

post #27 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Exactly. The reports about Apple are so incredibly biased that it's incredible. You'd think that they were on the brink of bankruptcy from reading what most of the media is saying about them instead of being the most profitable company on the planet - and still growing.

 

Yes, it is ridiculous.  What do you think causes it?

 

My first thought is that Americans LOVE underdogs.

 

Especially with Apple making money like Exxon, they're no longer considered the underdog to root for, or to give extra slack.   Instead, Apple has pretty much cast Samsung into the position of the underdog.   Moreover, Samsung is now seen by many as the "think different" brand to buy...  I mean, when Apple's former top evangelist goes all Android, something's up.

 

Samsung's ads are good too.  They made up most of the top dozen viral video ad clips last year, according to advertising journals.

 

Offhand, I don't know what Apple can do to change things.   Thoughts?


Edited by KDarling - 1/25/13 at 9:48am
post #28 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Amazon wins because of infrastructure.  If you think they're simply a retail business it's no wonder you don't understand them.  

 

Yes, they are into more than retail, but they still don't currently make and significant money off any of it. Their stock performance is fantasy based. Unless of course you really do think they'll take over the world.

post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

 

Yes, it is ridiculous.  What do you think causes it?

 

My first thought is that Americans LOVE underdogs.

 

Especially with Apple making money like Exxon, they're no longer considered the underdog to root for, or to give extra slack.   Instead, Apple has pretty much cast Samsung into the position of the underdog.   Moreover, Samsung is now seen by many as the "think different" brand to buy...  I mean, when Apple's former top evangelist and premier fanboy goes Android, something's up.

 

Samsung's ads are good too.  They made up most of the top dozen viral video ad clips last year, according to advertising journals.

 

Offhand, I don't know what Apple can do to correct their PR ship.   They're seen as more of the "safe and easy" boring brand to buy now.

 

Thoughts?

 

Yes, my thought are that your spin doctoring is relentless.

post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Yes, it is ridiculous.  What do you think causes it?

My first thought is that Americans LOVE underdogs.

Especially with Apple making money like Exxon, they're no longer considered the underdog to root for, or to give extra slack.   Instead, Apple has pretty much cast Samsung into the position of the underdog.   Moreover, Samsung is now seen by many as the "think different" brand to buy...  I mean, when Apple's former top evangelist goes all Android, something's up.

Samsung's ads are good too.  They made up most of the top dozen viral video ad clips last year, according to advertising journals.

Offhand, I don't know what Apple can do to change things.   Thoughts?

By geeks, Apple has always been seen as safe and boring. Geeks are the mainstay of the "tech" press. They are left-brain-dominant, reactive creatures. When treatened, they draw on their reptile connections to their amygdalas. Therefore, they're prone to pack and mob "thinking." I don't think they ever have underdog sympathies, aside for themselves out of their own sense of being misfits. They are more likely to find comfort in aligning themselves with overdogs like Microsoft and now Samsung. (No Samsung is not being seen as an underdog by anyone now; maybe as a giant tormented by upstart greedy Apple.)

Apple's fan base has always been floated by underdog sentiments, also by gnostic-like exclusivity and superiority, exactly the opposite of the geek sense of needy inferiority. (Ok, maybe the mechanism is still a variant of weak self-esteem in the Apple fan.) Lately Apple-ites are having a hard time not gloating, while more recently again having to take on a new underdog stance under all the hatred.

The growing Apple hatred is understandable. What's unfair about the situation is that the geek "press" and the "regular" media are exploiting the situation, piling on like the pack animals they are. No mainstream outfit is seriously taking on a defense of Apple and its role in this revolution. Only some people here, Gruber and his friends, a few posters on other rumor sites.

Kawasaki was always more about Kawasaki than Apple, as far as I could tell. Not sure about KDarling: Samsung's ads are not good. Only in a universe devoid of all ethics could they be pronounced good. They are about—and in—bad taste. This is the worst crime in the Apple universe.

Edit: I should say that geeks CAN be reactive, self-protective creatures of the amygdala. Relic, below, is a more confident sort, but still a geek. Apple does not make things for tinkerers like herself.
Edited by Flaneur - 1/25/13 at 11:20am
post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

 

Yes, it is ridiculous.  What do you think causes it?

 

My first thought is that Americans LOVE underdogs.

 

Especially with Apple making money like Exxon, they're no longer considered the underdog to root for, or to give extra slack.   Instead, Apple has pretty much cast Samsung into the position of the underdog.   Moreover, Samsung is now seen by many as the "think different" brand to buy...  I mean, when Apple's former top evangelist goes all Android, something's up.

 

Samsung's ads are good too.  They made up most of the top dozen viral video ad clips last year, according to advertising journals.

 

Offhand, I don't know what Apple can do to change things.   Thoughts?

 

I think Apple is doing just fine. As far as calling Samsung an underdog I think that's a little silly, HTC on the other hand. I to have always found iOS to be a very vanilla OS, I don't think I can name one technical advantage OS wise not hardware that has gotten me excited in the last three years. So I completely understand why an IT specialist like Guy Kawasaki would find Android more useful, he mentioned a few things he liked, like NFC, being able to create folders that are linked to his server (file-manager) at home and wireless charging. Innovative hasn't really been the iPhones calling card for a long while, Apple updates the OS to stay current but as far as adding that one wow must have feature, it's been pretty bland this last year. Yes I own an Android phone for work and it works just fine but true enjoyment comes from my Nokia Pureview 808 and my new Nokia 920. The Nokia 808 is a silly phone to own I know but in my eyes it's what Apple should be doing, pushing the envelope, testing new ground. Where is DLNA, NFC, wireless charging, all the blogs just say because the technology isn't matured but I have to say it's real nice when I come home unplug my earphones and simply tap my JVC speaker to continue my podcast while I cook dinner or be able to just set my Nokia 920 on it's charging pillow to charge without connecting anything or be able to stream the home movies I took of my daughters birthday to our DLNA compatible TV without messing around with a HDMI cable.

 

I like using my iPad for music creation and the kids for the games but if it wasn't for the apps there would be no reason for me to own one. The OS is extremely limited with the bare minimal to stay competitive. Can anyone name one feature that is present in iOS that can't be found in other mobile OS's, a must have feature. OSX and their laptops/all in ones and mini computers on the other hand still continue to be awesome but now that I have been using and liking Windows 8 on a tablet it's just a matter of time where like in the mid 90's Apple and I took a break.

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post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

To make sense of Amazon's numbers, look up what their free cash flow is each year.  For 2011, their net operating cash flow was 3.9 billion, they had a decent ROE, and they bought back shares in 2012.  To look simply at P/E ratios is to see a very small portion of the picture.  

OK. Look at cash flow. Apple's cash flow was 30 times that number - yet Apple's stock is being dumped (with cash-adjusted P/E at 7) and Amazon is at 3500. Even the multiples of cash flow are way out of whack.
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post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


OK. Look at cash flow. Apple's cash flow was 30 times that number - yet Apple's stock is being dumped (with cash-adjusted P/E at 7) and Amazon is at 3500. Even the multiples of cash flow are way out of whack.

Apple's cash flow was only 14 times Amazon's, and their market cap is nearly 4 times as big.  The market obviously believes Amazon will grow, while Apple has peaked.  Apple's P/E and other valuation metrics are roughly on par with ExxonMobil's, so it's not as if Apple's valuation is all that low.  

 

Maybe instead of arguing against the market, you should learn how it works. Here's another tidbit - stock in the market is like a product in itself, so if everyone already owns a certain stock, demand won't be as robust as if fewer people owned it.  If everyone and their broker owns a ton of Apple stock, they're likely not going to buy more, they'll diversity into other things.  

post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

By geeks, Apple has always been seen as safe and boring. Geeks are the mainstay of the "tech" press. They are left-brain-dominant, reactive creatures. When threatened, they draw on their reptile connections to their amygdalas. Therefore, they're prone to pack and mob "thinking." 

 

I never thought of most of the "tech" press as real geeks.  To me, a geek would actually understand what the heck they were writing about!   ;)

 

The growing Apple hatred is understandable. What's unfair about the situation is that the geek "press" and the "regular" media are exploiting the situation, piling on like the pack animals they are. No mainstream outfit is seriously taking on a defense of Apple and its role in this revolution. Only some people here, Gruber and his friends, a few posters on other rumor sites.

 

You lost me.   Why is hating Apple understandable?   Do you mean people don't like overly successful, or ?

 

As I've noted before, personally I'm thankful to Apple for bringing my field of touch out into the mainstream.

 

Quote:
Kawasaki was always more about Kawasaki than Apple, as far as I could tell. Not sure about KDarling: Samsung's ads are not good. Only in a universe devoid of all ethics could they be pronounced good. They are about—and in—bad taste. This is the worst crime in the Apple universe.

 

My fault.  Poor sentence editing.  I haven't even seen some of them.   I only intended to point out that the advertising industry praised them for being so viral. 

 

Although that gives us one hint of what Apple might change this coming year.  Perhaps more exciting advertising:

 

"Apple also made the list but with just one video and at just the sixth-place spot -- which was a big drop for the Cupertino company after landing the first-place spot on the same list last year. The ad was the introduction video for the iPhone 5, and it generated about 18 million true reach views.  [whereas the Samsung Next Big Thing ad had 72 million, and the LeBron Note 2 ad got 42 million views]

 

"Apple's performance in video advertising hasn't grown much in 2012 while the competition has exploded," Viral Measures said in the release for the list. "To stay competitive in video in 2013, Apple will need to rethink its video strategy."

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relic View Post

... true enjoyment comes from my Nokia Pureview 808 and my new Nokia 920. The Nokia 808 is a silly phone to own I know but in my eyes it's what Apple should be doing, pushing the envelope, testing new ground. Where is DLNA, NFC, wireless charging, ...

 

I'm in agreement with that.  Unfortunately, Apple often likes proprietary solutions.   Which reminds me, one thing that would help iPhone sales in emerging countries might be to make a model with a common mini-USB port so people can charge it anywhere without having to carry a dongle around.

 

Quote:
I like using my iPad for music creation and the kids for the games but if it wasn't for the apps there would be no reason for me to own one. The OS is extremely limited with the bare minimal to stay competitive. Can anyone name one feature that is present in iOS that can't be found in other mobile OS's, a must have feature. OSX and their laptops/all in ones and mini computers on the other hand still continue to be awesome but now that I have been using and liking Windows 8 on a tablet it's just a matter of time where like in the mid 90's Apple and I took a break.

 

There are two things I'd like to see appear on all tablets:   multiple tiled app windows, and multi-user logins for families and enterprise use.  

 

Regards to both, and thank you for your insightful thoughts.

post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

]I'm in agreement with that.  Unfortunately, Apple often likes proprietary solutions.

You mean like Google who has yet to open up and give away their search algorithms to everyone. It's almost as if they want to protect the part of their business that generates money for them.
Quote:
Which reminds me, one thing that would help iPhone sales in emerging countries might be to make a model with a common mini-USB port so people can charge it anywhere without having to carry a dongle around.

So the devices lose all the functionality and access that the Lightning connector and 30-pin dock connector before it affords? Why is that a good thing? Let's remember that Apple used the same interchangeable connector across 3 different product categories for nearly 10 years that totaled over a half billion units before switching to a much smaller, more advanced, and future-forward connector.

Let's also remember that Apple has made their PSUs with USB A ports for about 8-9 years since powered USB 2.0 ports that worked with any such device would work with.

You can still walk into gas stations and low-rent electronics stores to see a carousel display of dozens of connector types for a very few number of vendors and just for cell phones. If anyone has been doing it right it's Apple.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #36 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

You mean like Google who has yet to open up and give away their search algorithms to everyone. It's almost as if they want to protect the part of their business that generates money for them.

 

No sir, we weren't talking about proprietary IP.   We were talking about interfaces between phones and equipment, like DLNA, NFC.

 

Apple would rather create their own protocols, but not share them.   They often build a wall between themselves and other devices.   Some people are okay with that.

 

 

You can still walk into gas stations and low-rent electronics stores to see a carousel display of dozens of connector types for a very few number of vendors and just for cell phones. If anyone has been doing it right it's Apple.
 

Errr... I said emerging countries, not places with 7-11's on every corner  :)

 

There are many people who actually have to walk to another village to charge their cell phone from a community solar panel or other source.  This is especially important to many tribal women who often can only communicate with their original family via cell.

post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

No sir, we weren't talking about proprietary IP.   We were talking about interfaces between phones and equipment, like DLNA, NFC.

Apple would rather create their own protocols, but not share them.   They often build a wall between themselves and other devices.   Some people are okay with that.

You said proprietary solutions. Connectors, algorithms, OSes, etc are all types of IP. Their connectors and OS are proprietary IP just like Google's search algorithms and their OS. Guess what, USB is also proprietary IP. What you want is for Apple to harm itself in the market so that it releases a worse product that others can more easily compete with. I give big a **** that[/I] to that.
Quote:
Errr... I said emerging countries, not places with 7-11's on every corner  1smile.gif

There are many people who actually have to walk to another village to charge their cell phone from a community solar panel or other source.  This is especially important to many tribal women who often can only communicate with their original family via cell.

Hold up. I don't classify a single outlet between two extent villages as an emerging market. An emerging market is like the Chinese's middle class. There has to be "social or business activity in the process of rapid growth and industrialization"[1] for this to make sense otherwise it's not not emerging. If it's emerging then Apple will address it accordingly like it's doing with China.

A village with a cellphone and power source. You're not even trying. 1oyvey.gif

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post #38 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You said proprietary solutions. Connectors, algorithms, OSes, etc are all types of IP. Their connectors and OS are proprietary IP just like Google's search algorithms and their OS. Guess what, USB is also proprietary IP. What you want is for Apple to harm itself in the market so that it releases a worse product that others can more easily compete with. I give big a **** that[/I] to that.
Hold up. I don't classify a single outlet between two extent villages as an emerging market. An emerging market is like the Chinese's middle class. There has to be "social or business activity in the process of rapid growth and industrialization"[1] for this to make sense otherwise it's not not emerging. If it's emerging then Apple will address it accordingly like it's doing with China.

A village with a cellphone and power source. You're not even trying. 1oyvey.gif

 

Of all things to keep proprietary, I think connectors are silly.  How many iPhone users were inconvenienced when they switched from the 30 pin to Lightning?  Or when Macbooks changed power cables?

 

Sony's insistence on proprietary connectors, flash memory, etc... are a reason I don't give Sony any of my business.  I really don't think the 'user experience' would be harmed by going from Lightning to microUSB.  Or even better, they can do what HTC did on the phone I have - create a proprietary port that accepts and works with microUSB...  

post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Of all things to keep proprietary, I think connectors are silly.  How many iPhone users were inconvenienced when they switched from the 30 pin to Lightning?  Or when Macbooks changed power cables?

Sony's insistence on proprietary connectors, flash memory, etc... are a reason I don't give Sony any of my business.  I really don't think the 'user experience' would be harmed by going from Lightning to microUSB.  Or even better, they can do what HTC did on the phone I have - create a proprietary port that accepts and works with microUSB...  

1) I didn't have a problem with it just as I didn't have a problem with a connector for other phones I owned before the iPhone.

2) If there was a connector that was licensable to all (at a reasonable rate, of course) and had all the features that make the 30-pin iPod Connector and the Lightning connector so useful then I'd be all for it. Unfortunately the USB can only do basic data and power, and micro-USB is an absolutely horrid design from an industrial standpoint.

3) Sony and Apple are nothing alike here. Sony changed port interfaces more often than I change my pants. Apple had the same 30-pin connector for nearly 10 years. They finally updated that aging port interface with something modern for which I am very happy about. For you to say Apple should just do what the others are doing means no MagSafe which I don't want to go away. Should they have made it thinner in anticipation of even thinner machines? Maybe but they used it for 6.5 years before they made the change. I've bought aftermarket power supplies at Radio Shack. Not a great experience.

4) Note that they owned but licenses for free their mDP port interface. This was added to VESA's DisplayPort specs and then adopted by Intel for Thunderbolt. If it makes sense for others to inter-operate with the port then Apple will do what is needed but to say that every PC vendor should be able to use MagSafe so I don't have to buy a Mac next time or that every cellphone maker should use micro-USB without considering what that would do to those that have iDevices, what the port interface to be durable, and use accessories designed for that interface is just anti-Apple rhetoric.
Edited by SolipsismX - 1/25/13 at 4:42pm

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post #40 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Of all things to keep proprietary, I think connectors are silly.  How many iPhone users were inconvenienced when they switched from the 30 pin to Lightning?  Or when Macbooks changed power cables?

I don't know. How many?

Oh, you don't know either? Then why did you bring it up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeb85 View Post

Apple's cash flow was only 14 times Amazon's, and their market cap is nearly 4 times as big.  The market obviously believes Amazon will grow, while Apple has peaked.  Apple's P/E and other valuation metrics are roughly on par with ExxonMobil's, so it's not as if Apple's valuation is all that low.  

Well, if you want to look at cash flow, maybe you should look at cash flow for the last quarter:
Apple's cash flow increased by 33% over the previous year:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1133281-mr-market-should-be-looking-at-apple-s-cash-flow-rather-than-its-profits

So this quarter was so bad that their cash flow only increased by 33% - and that was with one fewer week.
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