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Google's 'confidential' test could be super-dense LTE network on Clearwire spectrum

post #1 of 34
Thread Starter 
Google has filed a request with the FCC for a license to test a wireless network on its Mountain View campus, and at least one observer believes the search giant is working on an LTE network of its own, possibly in preparation of entering the wireless provider sector on its own terms.

Washington, D.C.-based consulting wireless engineer Steven Crowley writes on his personal site that the high level of confidentiality surrounding Google's filings with the FCC is conspicuous, and that even the company's request for confidential treatment has had portions redacted.

Google


The filings also contain a number of other oddly redacted areas, including the output power of the devices being tested.

What leads Crowley to suspect an LTE network may be in the offing is a code supplied on the form. The code F9W is used sometimes for LTE devices, and it appears in Google's filing for the emission designator.

As Crowley notes, it is not possible to know exactly what may emerge from Google's secretive wireless testing. The search company has already rolled out a fiber-based Internet service in Kansas City, teasing a possible disruption of the wired Internet service industry. Analysts estimate, though, that rolling out such a service nationwide would cost roughly $140 billion.

Entering the wireless carrier market could prove an attractive option for the Android maker, which has already been rumored to have engaged in talks with entities such as Dish Network ?also known to be pondering a move into wireless.

Whether Google would be moving into the wireless industry on its own is also unknown. The tests Google is currently carrying out are being conducted on a frequency range held by Clearwire, a group in which Sprint recently took a controlling share. Sprint, itself, was recently acquired by Japanese carrier Softbank.
post #2 of 34

This is great! ADS by sms, more phone calls from companies trying to sell us more stuff...

post #3 of 34

Wish they'd focus more on the landline gigabit Internet they promised. You know, build that out, terrify the existing Internet providers, force them to upgrade their services, and then whatever happens happens.


If Google winds up being my ISP, I'm fine with that. Sure, they'll look at absolutely everything I do, but they can't do squat with it! I don't use any Google services, so I won't be served any ads based on anything I've surfed! They can't make any money off me that way, and their advertisers will learn that!

 

"So they'll just inject ad HTML pages in between every 50th URL you visit."

 

And that will instantly destroy that part of their company, leaving behind an upgraded infrastructure taken over by honorable (well, less disreputable) companies. No one would accept their browsing being hijacked by their ISP for the purpose of serving ads.

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #4 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Google has filed a request with the FCC for a license to test a wireless network on its Mountain View campus, and at least one observer believes the search giant is working on an LTE network of its own, possibly in preparation of entering the wireless provider sector on its own terms.

Cool. So I wonder if the carriers are kicking themselves for going so far out of the way to talk customers into buying Android phones instead of iPhones.
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post #5 of 34

I read a version of this story a day or two ago, with additional details linked here:

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Google-Testing-Secret-Wireless-Network-122873

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post #6 of 34
Attaboy Larry - keep innovating !
post #7 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

Sprint now completely controls Clearwire which uses the 2.5Ghz frequency. That was used for Wimax but will now be turned into LTE moving forward.

From an article: "Clearwire%u2019s 2.5GHz spectrum is uniquely positioned to be used as a global LTE band, provided a certain band configuration is used.

In the past, Clearwire has stated that it wishes to use the 2.5GHz spectrum assets it has for a capacity-based TD-LTE network. To that end, Clearwire%u2019s spectrum was codified in the 3GPP as band class 41, a TDD band that covers the entire frequency range. There is one major problem with this plan: the lack of economic scale. There simply aren%u2019t that many devices that support it at this time.

That could change if Chinese mobile operator China Mobile starts ordering dual-band TD-LTE devices that work for both its band 40 TD-LTE trial network and Clearwire%u2019s future band 41 network. China Mobile%u2019s 600 million subscriber base makes it a very good target to force the economic potential of the band to rise. Additionally, SoftBank Mobile (the Japanese network operator owned by SoftBank) has a TD-LTE network operating on band 41 in Japan right now."

Sprint has plenty of room in that frequency to lease out some to companies like Google or others. Even better if Google agrees to help build out the towers. This is the one frequency and band that truly has the potential to be global as it is used and available in far more countries than any other frequency.


 

 

Correction: Sprint doesn't own Clearwire. They are in a bidding war with DISH Network who has outbid Sprint.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/23/clearwire-sprint-dish-idUSL1E9CG8F020130123

 

Lots of action going on right now.


Edited by mdriftmeyer - 1/25/13 at 4:00pm
post #8 of 34
Originally Posted by majjo View Post
They indicated that they do plan on expanding their gigabit internet in their earnings call. At $70/month, I don't think they're that reliant on ads to support it.

 

Seventy?! Gigabit Internet access is half as expensive as 100 megabit?! 

 

"You just have to live where it is." Yeah, that's the kicker, isn't it.

 

Oh, this is SO DELICIOUS. I thought it was four times that at least. Talk about room for expansion! 

 

If they ever get around to where I live, this may be the one thing for which I accept Google's existence in my life.

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #9 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

This is great! ADS by sms, more phone calls from companies trying to sell us more stuff...

I think the scope less superficial than that. Google already know hundreds of millions if not billions of phone numbers. They could have be sending out tailored SMS ads years ago if they wanted. I think Dish Network is more along the longterm goals for Google. Get home internet and on-demand television where you can know everything they call and sell that info to all your current customers plus the television and movie studios. It could even be a way to curry favour with the big studios to help make deals that could eventually help topple the iTunes Store giant.

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post #10 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post

They indicated that they do plan on expanding their gigabit internet in their earnings call. At $70/month, I don't think they're that reliant on ads to support it.

Being a network guy I can't stand when I hear T1 in a recent movies to TV shows described as being fast.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #11 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Seventy?! Gigabit Internet access is half as expensive as 100 megabit?! 

 

"You just have to live where it is." Yeah, that's the kicker, isn't it.

 

Oh, this is SO DELICIOUS. I thought it was four times that at least. Talk about room for expansion! 

 

If they ever get around to where I live, this may be the one thing for which I accept Google's existence in my life.

You mean your seemingly irrational fear of ads might be overcome by a rational desire for more fairly priced and beneficial services? Say it ain't so TS!!

 

1biggrin.gif

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post #12 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Cool. So I wonder if the carriers are kicking themselves for going so far out of the way to talk customers into buying Android phones instead of iPhones.

Why does that matter? Google makes more money off iOS devices.
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post #13 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Being a network guy I can't stand when I hear T1 in a recent movies to TV shows described as being fast.

You'd figure they'd at least say T3 by now. Fact is T1s are still in high use today. There's never any slowdown and most telcos guarantee any outage to be of less than 24 hours.
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post #14 of 34
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
You mean your seemingly irrational fear of ads might be overcome by a rational desire for more fairly priced and beneficial services? Say it ain't so TS!!

 

I'm sorry, irrational? No, when an ISP starts serving up their own ads on websites or throws up their own pages in between URL searches, that's not irrational; that's Big Brother. 

 

It's not impossible to do, I don't know of any cases where either has been done (though the former more than the latter sounds like it could have already happened), but remaining vigilant about a violent reaction should it ever come to pass will keep it at bay.

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #15 of 34

Google wanted a secret network and now its posted all over the internets.

 

I'm here reading about it totally invading their privacy.

 

I feel EVIL!   1wink.gif

 

Should be interesting to see what, if anything, they do with it.

 

 

Maybe they are testing out their own zippy high density LTE network so they can become a service provider.

Maybe they are tinkering innovations to add to the 5g standard so they can license toothless FRAND patents for the good of everyone.

Maybe they are tinkering innovations to develop their own super-duper-unheard-of-speeds proprietary standard to give Android another competitive edge.  It sounds a little far fetched, who would adopt a proprietery wireless standard?  With Android looking to hit @80% market share globally- they pretty much are the standard....

Most likely they just wanted their own little campus network to tinker around with and not do much outside the scope of 20% time work, and they are just kicking back laughing at all the speculation.

 

It does look like they've been out shopping for spectrum so who knows.

post #16 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

I'm sorry, irrational? No, when an ISP starts serving up their own ads on websites or throws up their own pages in between URL searches, that's not irrational; that's Big Brother. 

It's not impossible to do, I don't know of any cases where either has been done (though the former more than the latter sounds like it could have already happened), but remaining vigilant about a violent reaction should it ever come to pass will keep it at bay.

There's only one way to know for sure. Ask a Google Fiber subscriber if indeed that is the case.
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post #17 of 34
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
There's only one way to know for sure. Ask a Google Fiber subscriber if indeed that is the case.

 

Oh, it's certainly not the case now. They wouldn't get anyone to switch from the old system if it were.

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #18 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Wish they'd focus more on the landline gigabit Internet they promised. You know, build that out, terrify the existing Internet providers, force them to upgrade their services, and then whatever happens happens.


If Google winds up being my ISP, I'm fine with that. Sure, they'll look at absolutely everything I do, but they can't do squat with it! I don't use any Google services, so I won't be served any ads based on anything I've surfed! They can't make any money off me that way, and their advertisers will learn that!

 

"So they'll just inject ad HTML pages in between every 50th URL you visit."

 

And that will instantly destroy that part of their company, leaving behind an upgraded infrastructure taken over by honorable (well, less disreputable) companies. No one would accept their browsing being hijacked by their ISP for the purpose of serving ads.

Many of the websites you visit use Google either directly or indirectly as their ad provider so using Google as your ISP will change the advertising you see on many sites. You'll see remarkably well targeted ads linked to your internet history and current location.

 

Currently many people block or delete cookies. If Google is your ISP they won't need cookies to track you.

 

I also think it's likely that you'll need a Google ID (and thus all the free Google services) to use Google as your ISP. Sure you can choose not to use Gmail, Google+, etc. but it'll be there and by watching everything you do Google will probably be able to create a Google+ identity for you that's at least as accurate as the one you'd create for yourself.

 

Well targeted ads set off my creepy stalker alarm. My solution is to boycott any business that seems to know too much about me.

post #19 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

Many of the websites you visit use Google either directly or indirectly as their ad provider so using Google as your ISP will change the advertising you see on many sites. You'll see remarkably well targeted ads linked to your internet history and current location.

 

Currently many people block or delete cookies. If Google is your ISP they won't need cookies to track you.

 

I also think it's likely that you'll need a Google ID (and thus all the free Google services) to use Google as your ISP. Sure you can choose not to use Gmail, Google+, etc. but it'll be there and by watching everything you do Google will probably be able to create a Google+ identity for you that's at least as accurate as the one you'd create for yourself.

 

Well targeted ads set off my creepy stalker alarm. My solution is to boycott any business that seems to know too much about me.

And the worst you see happening is you get an ad for something you might actually have an interest in rather than one you don't? 

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post #20 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Being a network guy I can't stand when I hear T1 in a recent movies to TV shows described as being fast.

I thought T1 died around the time I upgraded our 'Atlantic T1 line' (Europe <> US) to something snappier, some 12 years ago. Don't tell me it's still being sold!
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post #21 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

You'd figure they'd at least say T3 by now. Fact is T1s are still in high use today. There's never any slowdown and most telcos guarantee any outage to be of less than 24 hours.

T1 original refer to the T-carrier line so I technically I guess one could say T1 and mean more than T1 and much as or more than 28 to make a DS-3 (T3) but I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the industry since I started that used it an ambiguous way so I could be making a composition fallacy*.

The only example I can recall to the contrary of my original post is from the movie Swordfish (2001) which I believe had John Travolta character state they had 2 DS-3 lines (89.472Mb/s) coming to a house. As great as that might be the guy was doing torrents but what appeared to be small amounts of code. I'm not even sure you could get that much bandwidth without sending up some major red flags but I overlooked it because Halle Berry got topless.

I've never heard OC lines mentioned in any TV or movie that I can recall. That's got some amazing speeds with modern fiber channels.


* Wikipedia has a comprehensive list of fallacies. I've help write and edit many of them so I vouch for their correctiudedness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

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post #22 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by majjo View Post


They indicated that they do plan on expanding their gigabit internet in their earnings call. At $70/month, I don't think they're that reliant on ads to support it.

They are very dependent on government handouts to get to the $70/month.  Given the 100+ employees KC had to hire to do work the ISPs normal does (permits and such), the free office space, the city doing trenching, not needing equal access (being able to cherry pick neighborhoods) and Google being able to use utility polls off limits to the competition the $70/month is about half what it would cost under a free market.

post #23 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

T1 original refer to the T-carrier line so I technically I guess one could say T1 and mean more than T1 and much as or more than 28 to make a DS-3 (T3) but I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the industry since I started that used it an ambiguous way so I could be making a composition fallacy*.

The only example I can recall to the contrary of my original post is from the movie Swordfish (2001) which I believe had John Travolta character state they had 2 DS-3 lines (89.472Mb/s) coming to a house. As great as that might be the guy was doing torrents but what appeared to be small amounts of code. I'm not even sure you could get that much bandwidth without sending up some major red flags but I overlooked it because Halle Berry got topless.

I've never heard OC lines mentioned in any TV or movie that I can recall. That's got some amazing speeds with modern fiber channels.


* Wikipedia has a comprehensive list of fallacies. I've help write and edit many of them so I vouch for their correctiudedness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I did recently hear "cut the fiber" but cannot recall what movie it was.
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post #24 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

I thought T1 died around the time I upgraded our 'Atlantic T1 line' (Europe <> US) to something snappier, some 12 years ago. Don't tell me it's still being sold!

Of course. Not everyone needs more than that. Heck, I know companies that still use fractions of a T1.
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post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

I did recently hear "cut the fiber" but cannot recall what movie it was.

Here's a huge hint...

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
[outside the Stock Exchange building SWAT team arrives along with Foley]
Exchange Security Chief: You've gotta get in there!
Foley: This is a hostage situation.
Exchange Security Chief: No! No! No! This is a robbery! They have direct access to the online trading desk.
Foley: I'm not risking my men for your money.
[just then Blake arrives and goes over to a construction vehicle]
Blake: Sir, we're gonna have to ask you to move, we have a situation here.

[back to the security chief and Foley]
Exchange Security Chief: It's not our money, it's everybody's!
Foley: Really? Mine's in my mattress.
Exchange Security Chief: If you don't put these guys down, that stuffing in your mattress might be worth a whole hell of a lot less.
Foley: Cut the fiber cable and takeout that cell tower.
Exchange Security Chief: Thank you.
Foley: That'll slow 'em down.

[back in the stock exchange building]
Shoe Shine Man at GSE: They cut the fiber. Cell's working.
Bane: For now.

I hadn't remembered it until I looked it up which was surprising easy to do. I fully expected to spend at least a couple minutes hunting it down. Way to go people on the internet with nothing better to do than to post movie scripts.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #26 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the industry since I started that used it an ambiguous way so I could be making a composition fallacy

roflmao - composition fallacy = rdf
cheers
post #27 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Wish they'd focus more on the landline gigabit Internet they promised. You know, build that out, terrify the existing Internet providers, force them to upgrade their services, and then whatever happens happens.


If Google winds up being my ISP, I'm fine with that. Sure, they'll look at absolutely everything I do, but they can't do squat with it! I don't use any Google services, so I won't be served any ads based on anything I've surfed! They can't make any money off me that way, and their advertisers will learn that!

"So they'll just inject ad HTML pages in between every 50th URL you visit."

And that will instantly destroy that part of their company, leaving behind an upgraded infrastructure taken over by honorable (well, less disreputable) companies. No one would accept their browsing being hijacked by their ISP for the purpose of serving ads.

Even if I try to avoid any of google'd services the thought alone they could enter the ISP market gives me the creeps. Maybe heave users of google services get "express lanes" = faster connections. Or users more willing to share what they do. Or they provide a "tailored" view on the Internet and there is stuff you somehow never get to see. Just like google results are not the same for everybody already today and no one seems to care.

Regarding downgrading services by introducing ads: look at what we are already willing to accept right now. It is just a matter of gradually introducing it...
Edited by WonkoTheSane - 1/25/13 at 10:47pm
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post #28 of 34
ohh existing telcos are just gonna love little Larry. All talkey no walkey no infrastructure.
Seriously - google has nothing but software and only in webspace. err apart from the servers behind the scenes to better deliver more meaningful ads to augment your browsing experience. :-)
Little Larry keeps on innovating and talking the bubble up.

Just crap - noise - click throughs phhhst

Who is he gonna have a crack at next ? if he is to be believed all ad agencies are doomed. They know nothing. Nothing needs to advertised nor promoted other than his model - some kind of hokey web stats.
post #29 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobM View Post

ohh existing telcos are just gonna love little Larry. All talkey no walkey no infrastructure.
Seriously - google has nothing but software and only in webspace. err apart from the servers behind the scenes to better deliver more meaningful ads to augment your browsing experience. :-)
Little Larry keeps on innovating and talking the bubble up.

Just crap - noise - click throughs phhhst

Who is he gonna have a crack at next ? if he is to be believed all ad agencies are doomed. They know nothing. Nothing needs to advertised nor promoted other than his model - some kind of hokey web stats.

Long ago, and far away...

I remember hearing the story of a candidate for office creating a public outcry that the incumbent was inappropiayely (illegally?) using his office to obtain access to public records in order create voter lists...

...As the story went, the candidate stopped complaining when asked: "Where do you think you got your lists?"

This is getting a bit scary when you consider that Google will (does already?) have information at its fingertips that could be used to "lobby" public officials how to vote on any "cause" it chooses...

Quote:
The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin-

Edited by Dick Applebaum - 1/26/13 at 1:33am
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post #30 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Here's a huge hint...

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
[outside the Stock Exchange building SWAT team arrives along with Foley]
Exchange Security Chief: You've gotta get in there!
Foley: This is a hostage situation.
Exchange Security Chief: No! No! No! This is a robbery! They have direct access to the online trading desk.
Foley: I'm not risking my men for your money.
[just then Blake arrives and goes over to a construction vehicle]
Blake: Sir, we're gonna have to ask you to move, we have a situation here.

[back to the security chief and Foley]
Exchange Security Chief: It's not our money, it's everybody's!
Foley: Really? Mine's in my mattress.
Exchange Security Chief: If you don't put these guys down, that stuffing in your mattress might be worth a whole hell of a lot less.
Foley: Cut the fiber cable and takeout that cell tower.
Exchange Security Chief: Thank you.
Foley: That'll slow 'em down.

[back in the stock exchange building]
Shoe Shine Man at GSE: They cut the fiber. Cell's working.
Bane: For now.

I hadn't remembered it until I looked it up which was surprising easy to do. I fully expected to spend at least a couple minutes hunting it down. Way to go people on the internet with nothing better to do than to post movie scripts.

Riddle me this Batman.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #31 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

Sprint now completely controls Clearwire which uses the 2.5Ghz frequency. That was used for Wimax but will now be turned into LTE moving forward.

From an article: "Clearwire's 2.5GHz spectrum is uniquely positioned to be used as a global LTE band, provided a certain band configuration is used.

Is the 2,5 Ghz any good? I thought everyone wanted the lower frequencies in that 700 Mhz auction because the lower frequency penetrated buildings for better signal strength. Many people thought Google was going to bid on the 700 band back then but they opted not to. Seems odd that they would now decide to get into the carrier business after passing on the the coveted 700 band auction.

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post #32 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Is the 2,5 Ghz any good? I thought everyone wanted the lower frequencies in that 700 Mhz auction because the lower frequency penetrated buildings for better signal strength. Many people thought Google was going to bid on the 700 band back then but they opted not to. Seems odd that they would now decide to get into the carrier business after passing on the the coveted 700 band auction.

They don't have much of a choice now.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #33 of 34
No fucking way I'd ever trust Google with my phone calls, messages, data etc
post #34 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by chipped View Post

No fucking way I'd ever trust Google with my phone calls, messages, data etc

Ain't it the truth, for so many. And your stance on this gets further cemented because you signed up just to get this out. Welcome to the forum.
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