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Microsoft's Surface Pro to ship with as little as 36% of advertised storage available to users - Page 3

post #81 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


This doesn't make much sense.

Problem you have described is pointing to your GPU problem, likely drivers but also possibly hardware. It is not necessarily GPU hardware, it could be insufficient/fluctuating power, motherboard voltage regulators, chipset (though hardware problem usually would not be amendable by driver's restart) .

Of all the possible culprits, Windows 8 itself is the least likely.

Or would you prefer if your OS has frozen/BSOD on graphics failure, causing you to lose whatever you might have been working on at the moment, like good old XP would do?

XP actually could shutdown while keeping the graphics card running. I have a friend who ended up with a nice hole in his motherboard, graphics card and soundboard (which pretty much meant changing the whole machine anyway).

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #82 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


TS did previously mention problem with Intel graphics in his PC, so I don't think he is making this up. At least there is consistency in his story. Especially that I have also came across crappy Intel drivers for their integrated graphics, albeit different problem from what he is describing.
 

He might have several machines... I believe I've recently posted a pic of the machines on my desktop, and it includes Macs and Windows PCs...

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #83 of 150

As longs Microsoft will not understand the emerging mobile market really is driven by the public desires of a new and reboot from scratch platform, Microsoft will fail any attempt to push any Windows legacy.

 

Windows weight over the years has become ridiculously big, his DLL nightmare directory alone (WinSXS) is bigger than Mountain Lion whole OS.  


Edited by BigMac2 - 1/30/13 at 7:20am
post #84 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

The point is that neither is a desktop PC.  $30 more or less doesn't matter.  i7 vs i5 doesn't matter.

From a bang for the performance buck perspective the Mac Mini and iMac destroys both of them and both of those are (relative to cheap win pcs) expensive desktops.

Intel lists a $40 price difference between the two processors with the Core-i7 in the MBA being better (of course). This is more interesting interesting when you consider the MBA is NOT more expensive than the Surface Pro for the most comparable setup and the Surface Pro is well above the WinPC average while the MBA is well below the Mac average. When considering the demographics for Windows v Mac OS users this is an important distinction in determining what your market will be.

Then you have the options for making the MBA a much higher performer and increasing the already higher usable capacity of its storage. Again, this is important for their respective markets.

I'm not sure why you'd choose the Mac mini or iMac in a comparison to two portable devices. with fairly similar performance.

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #85 of 150
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post
TS did previously mention problem with Intel graphics in his PC, so I don't think he is making this up.

 

Radeon 4870. Sorry.


Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
If it's a desktop I'll recommend to get better case and to add couple of silent fans on a front and a back.

 

Mac Pro. It already is the best case and the best fans available anywhere on the market.

 

The GPU just crashed. Period. Because Windows has no idea how to manage graphics.

post #86 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

I still doesn't understand what the Surface Pro got any better than others failed Tablet PC from the past 15 years...

 

The issue here is not the hardware, but with legacy Windows software unfit for tablet screen size and touch input. BTW I wonder how anybody can considering a 10in Windows device for Pro working...

 

Failed Tablet PCs from the past 15 years have largely been overweight slates.  I've owned several motion computing tablets before giving up on tablets until the iPad.  I've always wanted a 11" MBA based tablet with a stylus.

 

So a lot of it has been the hardware being either too big or too slow or both.

 

As far as software goes I enjoyed using OneNote when I had it.

post #87 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Intel lists a $40 price difference between the two processors with the Core-i7 in the MBA being better (of course). This is more interesting interesting when you consider the MBA is NOT more expensive than the Surface Pro for the most comparable setup and the Surface Pro is well above the WinPC average while the MBA is well below the Mac average. When considering the demographics for Windows v Mac OS users this is an important distinction in determining what your market will be.

Then you have the options for making the MBA a much higher performer and increasing the already higher usable capacity of its storage. Again, this is important for their respective markets.

 

The Surface Pro has a (probably) wacom digitizer and a capactive touch screen.  The MBA does not.  

The Surface Pro has an optically bonded screen like the iMac.

The Surface Pro has a SDXC reader.  The MBA does not.

The Surface Pro is 1920 x1080.  The MBA is 1366x768.

The Surface Pro has a 42 Wh battery.  The MBA a 35 Wh battery.

The Surface Pro has two 720p cameras.  The MBA has one.

The Surface Pro has a gyroscope, compass/magnetometer and accelerometer.  The MBA does not.

 

The MBA has thunderbolt.  The Surface Pro does not.

 

/shrug

 

I think the Surface Pro is priced well against the MBA.  

 

Regarding the demographics...windows users run the gamut of demographics and the top tier ultrabooks are priced similarly.  The build quality has been uniformly reported as very high and they use injected moulded magnesium (VaporMg) and not plastic.  I think MS has been very smart with respect to Surface pricing where they build a flagship device with a built in significant price umbrella for their OEM partners.  

 

Unlike Google that effectively cratered the profitability of every other 7" tablet maker not named Amazon or Apple.

 

 

Quote:
I'm not sure why you'd choose the Mac mini or iMac in a comparison to two portable devices. with fairly similar performance.

 

Again, my point is that neither the MBA nor the Surface pro is a desktop, expensive or otherwise.

 

My thoughts are I wish it had thunderbolt and Haswell.  If anything makes me not get the launch Surface Pro is the fact that simply replacing the CPU with Haswell is going to vastly improve both GPU performance and battery life...although not at the same time. :)  The Surface Pro 2 is going to be a major improvement like going from the original MBA to what we have today.  

 

That might be as early as fall 2013 in time for XMas.

post #88 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Radeon 4870. Sorry.

Mac Pro. It already is the best case and the best fans available anywhere on the market.

The GPU just crashed. Period. Because Windows has no idea how to manage graphics.

I have win7 setup with same type of ati graphics card. it is both overheating issue with cooler/fan and terrible driver/software.

best option is to go to gpu settings to underclock and forcing fan to stay on 60-70%. cant remember name offhand but there is an ati utility which also causes system hang when it tries to report the gpu problem.

Inspiration begins with google

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Inspiration begins with google

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post #89 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

Failed Tablet PCs from the past 15 years have largely been overweight slates.  I've owned several motion computing tablets before giving up on tablets until the iPad.  I've always wanted a 11" MBA based tablet with a stylus.

 

So a lot of it has been the hardware being either too big or too slow or both.

 

As far as software goes I enjoyed using OneNote when I had it.

 

The Surface Pro is still a overweight slate with poor performance and battery life when compared to WinPC and other tablets.  You may want a stylus for precise works, but driving the UI with a stylus is just plain wrong.  No PC or Tablet have being ever successful with a pen driven UI. You don't want a pen for browsing, reading your email and watching videos, works for what tablet are really made for. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

The Surface Pro has a (probably) wacom digitizer and a capactive touch screen.  The MBA does not.  

The Surface Pro has an optically bonded screen like the iMac.

The Surface Pro has a SDXC reader.  The MBA does not.

The Surface Pro is 1920 x1080.  The MBA is 1366x768.

The Surface Pro has a 42 Wh battery.  The MBA a 35 Wh battery.

The Surface Pro has two 720p cameras.  The MBA has one.

The Surface Pro has a gyroscope, compass/magnetometer and accelerometer.  The MBA does not.

 

Do a need to remembering you the Surface "Pro" is a 10inch netbook with a fabric keyboard and minuscule trackpad, what pro work you ever want to do on this computer? Have you ever use Office or Photoshop on a 10 in screen?  Actual windows software can't be use adequately on this setup, Microsoft should have built a new platform instead of promising a tablet running Windows crapware. 

post #90 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

The Surface Pro is still a overweight slate with poor performance and battery life when compared to WinPC and other tablets.  You may want a stylus for precise works, but driving the UI with a stylus is just plain wrong.  No PC or Tablet have being ever successful with a pen driven UI. You don't want a pen for browsing, reading your email and watching videos, works for what tablet are really made for. 

 

 

Do a need to remembering you the Surface "Pro" is a 10inch netbook with a fabric keyboard and minuscule trackpad, what pro work you ever want to do on this computer? Have you ever use Office or Photoshop on a 10 in screen?  Actual windows software can't be use adequately on this setup, Microsoft should have built a new platform instead of promising a tablet running Windows crapware. 

I've heard several people talk about the Surface Pro being great for doing photoshop work, but as noted above, I just cannot see photo professionals going gaga over doing serious (professional) work on a 10" screen.  Not that I think a professional would any more use an iPad for doing said work.  These types of comments of the Surface Pro being great because...sound like red herrings to me.  Same goes for running legacy programs, designed and built to be run on a desktop or laptop form factor, being anything but problematic when pushed down to a wide format, landscape mode, 10" screen. 

 

The other thing that bugs me about supporters of a tablet/netbook like the Surface (pro or rt) is that they talk about it being a real OS vs iOS (or Android).  How can they not understand that apps built for the iPad (for example) do what they are intended to do using the form factor and OS that the iPad was designed for.  When I use my iPad 4 for editing proposals, for example, that I created on my MBA 13" and saved to iCloud, I don't think negatively that Pages or Numbers is running on a mobile OS - because I can do whatever I need to do on it to edit or create what I need.  Of course it's different, because I'm holding a tablet and not using a trackpad and physical keyboard to input into the apps.  That's the whole point.  MS simply tried to miniaturize the laptop, forgetting that the tablet experience is different and should be different.

 

I'm now at that point where I am seriously considering selling my MBA and getting another iMac (just got a new 21" with fusion drive for work) because I am not traveling with the Air any more and working on a big screen while in-office is a better experience.  I wonder if that is in part what Apple is seeing, which is why they're not keeping up with iMac production (beyond the screen lamination issues)?


Edited by jmgregory1 - 1/30/13 at 9:25am
post #91 of 150
Zune failure in the making and they dont even see it coming!
post #92 of 150
Definitive evidence of the Windows Tax.
post #93 of 150
I will admit that I could be missing something here but, this device will be priced at the same range of some higher performance/end laptops that will undoubtedly have a larger storage space, RAM, etc. With that in mind, why buy this at all?
post #94 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post

I've heard several people talk about the Surface Pro being great for doing photoshop work, but as noted above, I just cannot see photo professionals going gaga over doing serious (professional) work on a 10" screen.  Not that I think a professional would any more use an iPad for doing said work.  These types of comments of the Surface Pro being great because...sound like red herrings to me.  Same goes for running legacy programs, designed and built to be run on a desktop or laptop form factor, being anything but problematic when pushed down to a wide format, landscape mode, 10" screen. 

 

The other thing that bugs me about supporters of a tablet/netbook like the Surface (pro or rt) is that they talk about it being a real OS vs iOS (or Android).  How can they not understand that apps built for the iPad (for example) do what they are intended to do using the form factor and OS that the iPad was designed for.  When I use my iPad 4 for editing proposals, for example, that I created on my MBA 13" and saved to iCloud, I don't think negatively that Pages or Numbers is running on a mobile OS - because I can do whatever I need to do on it to edit or create what I need.  Of course it's different, because I'm holding a tablet and not using a trackpad and physical keyboard to input into the apps.  That's the whole point.  MS simply tried to miniaturize the laptop, forgetting that the tablet experience is different and should be different.

 

I'm now at that point where I am seriously considering selling my MBA and getting another iMac (just got a new 21" with fusion drive for work) because I am not traveling with the Air any more and working on a big screen while in-office is a better experience.  I wonder if that is in part what Apple is seeing, which is why they're not keeping up with iMac production (beyond the screen lamination issues)?

 

I completely agree with you.  Microsoft has follow the wrong path with mobile products, Keeping their "incompatible" windows everywhere strategy is plain wrong and alienated their consumer with confusing product line sharing the same name but not the same softwares.  Even worst with Windows 8 they created a dual headed beast unfit for desktop and tablet uses.  Microsoft view of an "no compromised" platform is a mess without any clue. 

post #95 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Really? We're still intermixing BASE-10 and BASE-2 measurements? Are we doing this so the MS Surface looks worse or are we really not understanding that vendors state the capacity as 1000 for Kilo, not 1024?

59.60 GiB for the 64GB model and 119.2 GiB for the 128GB model. Win8 is still a hefty beast, just not as bad it's made out to be here.

That is what Microsoft do themselves:

http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/storage

They do make sure to point out the distinction in size calculations but is mixed up again here:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/29/3929110/surface-pro-disk-space-windows-8

The OS should take up about 36GB as the Windows filesystem reports it or about 39GB as Mountain Lion would report it. It's still pretty close to the 'as little as 36% left' on the 64GB model.

They should hackintosh Mountain Lion onto it so it's under 10GB used.
post #96 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

I still doesn't understand what the Surface Pro got any better than others failed Tablet PC from the past 15 years...

An SSD? A decent display? A capacitive touchscreen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

The issue here is not the hardware, but with legacy Windows software unfit for tablet screen size and touch input. BTW I wonder how anybody can considering a 10in Windows device for Pro working...

Plug it into PC peripherals; problem solved. It's a portable PC that you can take anywhere and plug into anything, or just use its screen when nothing else is available. That is, at least, how I regard the Windows 8 tablets, and that's why I would definitely buy a decent Windows 8 gaming tablet to use as a portable Steam Box merging the best of PC gaming with the best of console gaming.
post #97 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

The Surface Pro is still a overweight slate with poor performance and battery life when compared to WinPC and other tablets.  You may want a stylus for precise works, but driving the UI with a stylus is just plain wrong.  No PC or Tablet have being ever successful with a pen driven UI. You don't want a pen for browsing, reading your email and watching videos, works for what tablet are really made for. 

 

 

It's 1.99 lbs which is a tad heavy as a tablet but it's a pound or two lighter than the motion tablets I had.  The iPad is 1.46 lbs.

 

The UI is driven by touch, not the stylus.

 

Quote:

Do a need to remembering you the Surface "Pro" is a 10inch netbook with a fabric keyboard and minuscule trackpad, what pro work you ever want to do on this computer? Have you ever use Office or Photoshop on a 10 in screen?  Actual windows software can't be use adequately on this setup, Microsoft should have built a new platform instead of promising a tablet running Windows crapware. 

 

The type cover keyboard is your usual plastic keyboard.  Described by Anand as:

 

"Surface Pro uses the same type and touch covers as Surface RT. These two remain the best tablet keyboards I've ever used, not in that they are great keyboards but they offer a great balance of usability and form factor. Type/touch cover really do feel like a cover that you never need to remove, whereas most other tablet keyboards make me feel like I've turned my tablet into a notebook." 

 

I played with it at the MS kiosk at the mall and I agree...they are very good tablet keyboards but not great keyboards overall.

 

 

 

The display is physically small but functional for drawing and taking notes on the go.  To some extent this depends on your visual acuity since it's a 1080p display...giving you the same screen real estate as the monitor I use at home.

 

At home or work and docked with a montor, BT keyboard and BT mouse it should be like any other Core i5 windows machine with integrated graphics...only with a 10" drawing pad.  Something some photoshop users will enjoy having.

 

"We also ran Surface RT with an external display, driving a behemoth, high-res monitor via the Pro’s Mini DisplayPort adapter. OK, that was a revelation. When attached to an external monitor, the Surface Pro really does become a full PC—and in this mode, the tablet itself can function as a drawing pad for full-fledged graphics applications, thanks to its included pen."

 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2024690/microsoft-surface-pro-hands-on-impressions-from-ces.html

 

post #98 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post

I've heard several people talk about the Surface Pro being great for doing photoshop work, but as noted above, I just cannot see photo professionals going gaga over doing serious (professional) work on a 10" screen.  Not that I think a professional would any more use an iPad for doing said work.  These types of comments of the Surface Pro being great because...sound like red herrings to me.  Same goes for running legacy programs, designed and built to be run on a desktop or laptop form factor, being anything but problematic when pushed down to a wide format, landscape mode, 10" screen. 

 

There's interest in both the iPad and the Surface Pro for use on shoot.

 

The desire, as I understand it, is to preview and do minor touch up of the files for quick review by the photographer or clients.  It is certainly easier to see the photo and histogram on a 10" screen than a 3" screen built into the body of your DSLR.

 

Take a CF card and pop in the reader connected to the USB3 port and you can do this pretty quick.

post #99 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post


An SSD? A decent display? A capacitive touchscreen?
Plug it into PC peripherals; problem solved. It's a portable PC that you can take anywhere and plug into anything, or just use its screen when nothing else is available. That is, at least, how I regard the Windows 8 tablets, and that's why I would definitely buy a decent Windows 8 gaming tablet to use as a portable Steam Box merging the best of PC gaming with the best of console gaming.

A small SSD, ok great for performance, but come on, even with a full 64GB of free space is not much space for a windows machine, I can't imagine how a Windows machine 28GB of free space can be call a Pro product.  Calling a 10 in screen a decent display for Windows apps is ridiculous.  For gaming, Surface Pro is again a ridiculous device, do you really considering a real Windows gaming experience from netbook made processor and board?  Beside having a real keyboard and mouse, external PC peripherals won't bring the Surface Pro on par with regular and cheaper Laptops.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

 

It's 1.99 lbs which is a tad heavy as a tablet but it's a pound or two lighter than the motion tablets I had.  The iPad is 1.46 lbs.

 

The UI is driven by touch, not the stylus.

 

 

The type cover keyboard is your usual plastic keyboard.  Described by Anand as:

 

"Surface Pro uses the same type and touch covers as Surface RT. These two remain the best tablet keyboards I've ever used, not in that they are great keyboards but they offer a great balance of usability and form factor. Type/touch cover really do feel like a cover that you never need to remove, whereas most other tablet keyboards make me feel like I've turned my tablet into a notebook." 

 

I played with it at the MS kiosk at the mall and I agree...they are very good tablet keyboards but not great keyboards overall.

 

 

 

The display is physically small but functional for drawing and taking notes on the go.  To some extent this depends on your visual acuity since it's a 1080p display...giving you the same screen real estate as the monitor I use at home.

 

At home or work and docked with a montor, BT keyboard and BT mouse it should be like any other Core i5 windows machine with integrated graphics...only with a 10" drawing pad.  Something some photoshop users will enjoy having.

 

"We also ran Surface RT with an external display, driving a behemoth, high-res monitor via the Pro’s Mini DisplayPort adapter. OK, that was a revelation. When attached to an external monitor, the Surface Pro really does become a full PC—and in this mode, the tablet itself can function as a drawing pad for full-fledged graphics applications, thanks to its included pen."

 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2024690/microsoft-surface-pro-hands-on-impressions-from-ces.html

 

 

Again, there is so many misconception about Tablet vs Desktop UI, the primary baby UI of Windows 8 (was is formally know as Metro) is indeed touch oriented, but none of productivity apps on windows use this UI, even on the Surface RT Microsoft decide to put a desktop oriented UI Office instead of designing a real touch Office for tablet.  None of the Surface Pro review has address the main concern about how good it can be for running real productivity apps like Adobe CS or Office, no word yet how it play crysis or any AAA PC games, get real, Surface Pro performance is at netbooks level, not a gaming computer.  With all of this said, why people still drool over the Surface Pro when you can have better and cheaper Laptop, Surface Pro appear to have many shortcoming without any distinct advantages over other netbook.  And args about the fact you can plug it on an external display for running windows apps kinda defeat the whole raison d'être of a tablet. 


Edited by BigMac2 - 1/30/13 at 1:43pm
post #100 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

A small SSD, ok great for performance, but come on, even with a full 64GB of free space is not much space for a windows machine, I can't imagine how a Windows machine 28GB of free space can be call a Pro product.  Calling a 10 in screen a decent display for Windows apps is ridiculous.  For gaming, Surface Pro is again a ridiculous device, do you really considering a real Windows gaming experience from netbook made processor and board?  Beside having a real keyboard and mouse, external PC peripherals won't bring the Surface Pro on par with regular and cheaper Laptops.

 

1) you can get 128GB

2) a 10" 1080p screen has the same real estate as a 23" 1080p screen.  Just smaller so you'll need to be closer to the screen or have very good vision.

3) with integrated graphics it won't be a gaming machine but it's not a netbook processor and board.  It's a Core i5 and not an Atom.

 

Quote:
Again, there is so many misconception about Tablet vs Desktop UI, the primary baby UI of Windows 8 (was is formally know as Metro) is indeed touch oriented, but none of productivity apps on windows use this UI, even on the Surface RT Microsoft decide to put a desktop oriented UI Office instead of designing a real touch Office for tablet.  None of the Surface Pro review has address the main concern about how good it can be for running real productivity apps like Adobe CS or Office, no word yet how it play crysis or any AAA PC games, get real, Surface Pro performance is at netbooks level, not a gaming computer.  With all of this said, why people still drool over the Surface Pro when you can have better and cheaper Laptop, Surface Pro appear to have many shortcoming without any distinct advantages over other netbook.  And args about the fact you can plug it on an external display for running windows apps kinda defeat the whole raison d'être of a tablet. 

 

1) there is no misconception regarding the UIs.  This is why the Surface Pro pricing in this discussion always includes the keyboard and trackpad.

2) It should run Office, Adobe CS, Crysis, AAA PC games as well as any other Core i5 laptop with the same CPU/GPU specs.  In other words well for Office, pretty decent for Adobe CS and poorly for AAA games.

3) Why do people drool over Apple gear even though you can have better and cheaper laptops?  Because they are better than cheaper laptops.

4) The distinct advantage it has over netbooks is a Core i5 vs an Atom, hugely better build quality and a much much better screen.  These are the same hardware advantages enjoyed by the MBA over netbooks.

5) You can spell raison d'être but evidently not understand what it is for the Surface Pro.  It's an ultrabook/tablet hybrid.  Perhaps successful, perhaps not but there's a large number of folks that have been waiting for something like this.  Now it depends on MS' execution of the concept.  Now that's an iffy proposition but just looking at the hardware they seem to have done pretty well.

 

Nice avoidance of your incorrect facts (like cloth keyboard) by bloviating a bunch of more incorrect facts.

post #101 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

1) you can get 128GB

A standard $500 Netbook now come with 250GB HD, even 128GB for a Windows PC is pretty small with all the updates, softwares and systems restore stuff. I've an 64GB Bootcamp partition on my system, I got just enough space to install one games. I know you can't compare HD and SSD, but still 128GB is barely enough for 2013 Windows PCs.  SD card and USB drives only brings new levels of problems and limitations typical to the old Windows desktop paradigm that people wants to get off. 

 

 

2) a 10" 1080p screen has the same real estate as a 23" 1080p screen.  Just smaller so you'll need to be closer to the screen or have very good vision.

True if you only considering a regular PC with full size keyboard and mouse, but now how it work with touch input? Even with a mouse, it's just a pain in the a__ pointing small UI elements of Office apps I can't imagine it on the small Surface's trackpad, every Surface RT reviews are pointing this flaw when using desktop mode apps on it. You've got to admit, Microsoft owns apps are clutter with too much menus, toolbars, buttons, ribbons, etc which are unusable on small screen. Its even more absurd when you realize how much Microsoft has never care about wasting vertical screen estate with oversize title bars and ribbons, unfit with now à la mode widescreen aspect ratio designed for video content.  They absolutely got no clue at all with the Surface Pro, they put every features peoples desired for but without any direction. Looks more like Homer's Simpsons car to me than a revolutionary product. I wont recomend it for someone who want to replace his main laptop for work. 

 

 

3) with integrated graphics it won't be a gaming machine but it's not a netbook processor and board.  It's a Core i5 and not an Atom.

The low end i5 they put in made it one of the slowest new PC announced this year. You got a much better value with a $900 Laptop than a Surface Pro if you need a Windows PC for working with your apps you are already using. I won't recommend it for a student

 

1) there is no misconception regarding the UIs.  This is why the Surface Pro pricing in this discussion always includes the keyboard and trackpad.

And this is where Microsoft failed to really define his tablet platform.  The current Surface RT and Pro still have the same Tablet PC identity crisis, they can't decide if the keyboard and mouse should be mandatory or not, if so the laptop platform is still a better solution for mobile desktop computing.

 

2) It should run Office, Adobe CS, Crysis, AAA PC games as well as any other Core i5 laptop with the same CPU/GPU specs.  In other words well for Office, pretty decent for Adobe CS and poorly for AAA games.

Agree for Office and Adobe on performance, but my point was about the 10inch screen, those apps was never created on saving screen real state space and touch input, making those apps harder to work on the Surface than a Ultrabook. There is no part of which a Ultrabook can't equal or beat the Surface Pro for about the same price, this is why the Surface will sold poorly comparing to other PC form factor. I won't recommend it for gamers or child. 

 

3) Why do people drool over Apple gear even though you can have better and cheaper laptops?  Because they are better than cheaper laptops.

Apple is different than Samsung, HTC, and Microsoft.  They won't create a product just because there is a market for, they create something they want for them self and family, they cares much about their product. Microsoft is not doing Windows and Office for fun, they doing it because there is a market for they doesn't care much about taking risk, sharp decisions and redefine paradigm.  When Microsoft has creating a new market? I can count a few from Apple. And I got no problem to recommend a Mac or iDevices for what ever needs. 

 

4) The distinct advantage it has over netbooks is a Core i5 vs an Atom, hugely better build quality and a much much better screen.  These are the same hardware advantages enjoyed by the MBA over netbooks.

Nothing here is exclusive to Microsoft, nothing can stop Acer or Asus from producing a 10inch Ultrabook with the same specs.  What I'm saying is for using Windows apps, the laptop configuration is better than hybrid slate-laptop setup than Surface is. This is considering the laptop is cheaper than Surface. 

 

5) You can spell raison d'être but evidently not understand what it is for the Surface Pro.  It's an ultrabook/tablet hybrid.  Perhaps successful, perhaps not but there's a large number of folks that have been waiting for something like this.  Now it depends on MS' execution of the concept.  Now that's an iffy proposition but just looking at the hardware they seem to have done pretty well.

Thank you, I'm french speaking (not from France).  I think you see stars sparkles all around the Surface.  Surface is a more expensive Ultrabook with a smaller screen, keyboard and mouse and a more expensive and fatter tablet.  Microsoft really wants to merge a fridge with a toaster for pleasing everybody.  I won't recommend it for someone who only want running tablet apps.

 

Nice avoidance of your incorrect facts (like cloth keyboard) by bloviating a bunch of more incorrect facts.

My bad, doesn't change the fact that its still awkward to use it on your laps like a regular laptops. But you don't seam to recognize the tablet platform being a distinct and independent platform that needs specials cares and optimizations from apps developers. Apple made a clear statements on how touch device should interact by making touch screens the mandatory human interface, Apple could have port the finder on iOS (I bet they already have), but it make no sense to use a desktop apps on a tablet, this is why every windows tablet as ever failed and Surface Pro is making no differences.  I know i'm repeating my self but Surface and Windows 8 are likes The Homer, the car designed by Homer, even the Surface brand is recycle.

 


Edited by BigMac2 - 1/30/13 at 5:52pm
post #102 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

1) you can get 128GB
IMO either MS starts with 100+ gb or exclude office preinstalled.

Creatives using creative suite sits at almost 9gb min. Leaving 14gb for user files and scratch disk allocation. A pro photographer can blow that in a couple of shoots.
Quote:
there is no misconception regarding the UIs. This is why the Surface Pro pricing in this discussion always includes the keyboard and trackpad.

Huh? Surface pro only includes digitiser. $119-130 for keyboards separately. Not saying they are crud or anything but another added cost.

Adding to 128gb size surface with keyboard checks in at almost double ASP of windows laptops. Even above the Win 8 touch ultrabooks.
Quote:
3) Why do people drool over Apple gear even though you can have better and cheaper laptops? Because they are better than cheaper laptops.

Is the surface comparable?
How 'better' compared to other cheaper win8 touch laptops from oems? Digitiser is the only difference. One could say Oems are more 'business' focused with proper keyboards, so MS is more 'creative'?

What I would be interested to know is how good is the software dealing with palm rejection. I've used friends note10.1 and software is quite bad (at least his note) also found the pen to be worse than the early Wacom bamboo pens, felt very flimsy.

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post #103 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

A standard $500 Netbook now come with 256GB...

Netbooks come standard with 256GB SSDs for $500?

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post #104 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Netbooks come standard with 256GB SSDs for $500?

I stated later that you can't really compare HD and SSD, I wasn't clear enough. 


Edited by BigMac2 - 1/30/13 at 5:51pm
post #105 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

The Surface Pro has a (probably) wacom digitizer and a capactive touch screen.  The MBA does not.  
The Surface Pro has an optically bonded screen like the iMac.
The Surface Pro has a SDXC reader.  The MBA does not.
The Surface Pro is 1920 x1080.  The MBA is 1366x768.
The Surface Pro has a 42 Wh battery.  The MBA a 35 Wh battery.
The Surface Pro has two 720p cameras.  The MBA has one.
The Surface Pro has a gyroscope, compass/magnetometer and accelerometer.  The MBA does not.

The MBA has thunderbolt.  The Surface Pro does not.

/shrug

I think the Surface Pro is priced well against the MBA.  

Yes, one can find all sorts of silly 'features' to try to prove a silly point.

In reality, the market that a product falls into is defined by the usage pattern. For example:

iPad:
ARM processor
Does not run desktop apps
Used mainly for content consumption, although content creation is possible
Sold without keyboard, although external keyboard (Bluetooth) can be added.

Surface RT:
ARM processor
Does not run desktop apps
Used mainly for content consumption, although content creation is possible
Designed to be used without a keyboard, although an external keyboard can be added.

MBA:
Laptop designed to run full desktop OS
Runs most of platform's apps
Has sufficient RAM to run platform's apps
Keyboard is part of the system

Surface Pro: (keeping in mind that all of MS' advertisements include the keyboard as an integral part of the system):
Laptop designed to run full desktop OS
Runs most of platform's apps
Has sufficient RAM to run platform's apps
Keyboard is part of the system

Clearly, the RT competes against the iPad and the Pro competes against the MBA. There is some gray area, but not that much.
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post #106 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

A small SSD, ok great for performance, but come on, even with a full 64GB of free space is not much space for a windows machine, I can't imagine how a Windows machine 28GB of free space can be call a Pro product.

You'd be surprised to learn that I'm only using 57GB total on this MacBook Pro, because as a software engineer, I really don't need much more. My home directory alone is currently sitting at 20GB, and that's with iTunes media cluttering it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Calling a 10 in screen a decent display for Windows apps is ridiculous.

Even a 3" screen can be a decent display, since I'm talking about display quality, not purpose. If the 10" screen is too small for you, you can always plug it to a desktop monitor and your problem is solved. My use case for a tablet like this would always be that of a portable PC that I can take with me and hook anywhere, with the screen on it being a nice non-essential addition. In Apple's terms, picture a thin and lightweight Mac Mini with a display. Lastly, that 10" screen isn't that much smaller than the MacBook Air's 11" screen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

For gaming, Surface Pro is again a ridiculous device, do you really considering a real Windows gaming experience from netbook made processor and board?  Beside having a real keyboard and mouse, external PC peripherals won't bring the Surface Pro on par with regular and cheaper Laptops.

This is a straw man fallacy. I never claimed that the Surface Pro itself was a decent gaming tablet, nor did I ever claim that I would buy a Surface Pro, quite the opposite, as you should realize by reading my other posts to this thread. Regarding specs, the Surface Pro is quite superior to a "cheap" netbook, not only for the aforementioned reasons, but also because it sports a Core i5 rather than an Atom, putting it at the same level as the 11" MacBook Air as far as hardware is concerned.
post #107 of 150

I read the above contributions with interest.

 

As mentioned earlier, I belong to Microsoft haters category, due to the fact I have been forced to use their miserable products during my entire career, but let's put aside this for a moment.

 

What is fascinating with Microsoft is how much they can come up with confusing choices, not just for the user, but also for the consumer in search of information about their products.

 

Just for fun (I am not interested, I run LibreOffice), I recently tried to get an answer to this simple question : how much would cost me an OS X version of Excel on my Mac, and would that version run VBA code ?

 

I was amazed of the incredible price range I got, and the fact that the answer to the second question is still unclear to me. 

 

Although PC lovers like to argue on spec sheets, nothing like this is the Apple world : equivalent product information can be obtained easily.

 

 

I just really do not understand Microsoft.

post #108 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

A standard $500 Netbook now come with 250GB HD, even 128GB for a Windows PC is pretty small with all the updates, softwares and systems restore stuff. I've an 64GB Bootcamp partition on my system, I got just enough space to install one games. I know you can't compare HD and SSD, but still 128GB is barely enough for 2013 Windows PCs.  SD card and USB drives only brings new levels of problems and limitations typical to the old Windows desktop paradigm that people wants to get off.

I find it amusing that you keep comparing the Surface Pro to cheap netbooks when its 128GB model has better specs than the 64GB 11" MacBook Air, despite costing exactly the same. I'd also like to see one of those $500 netbooks with 256GB SSDs that you speak of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

True if you only considering a regular PC with full size keyboard and mouse, but now how it work with touch input? Even with a mouse, it's just a pain in the a__ pointing small UI elements of Office apps I can't imagine it on the small Surface's trackpad, every Surface RT reviews are pointing this flaw when using desktop mode apps on it. You've got to admit, Microsoft owns apps are clutter with too much menus, toolbars, buttons, ribbons, etc which are unusable on small screen. Its even more absurd when you realize how much Microsoft has never care about wasting vertical screen estate with oversize title bars and ribbons, unfit with now à la mode widescreen aspect ratio designed for video content.  They absolutely got no clue at all with the Surface Pro, they put every features peoples desired for but without any direction. Looks more like Homer's Simpsons car to me than a revolutionary product. I wont recomend it for someone who want to replace his main laptop for work.

The niche for the Surface Pro is that of a portable PC that you can take anywhere and plug to anything, with a built-in screen and capacitive multitouch interface that works both with your fingers and a stylus when nothing else is available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

The low end i5 they put in made it one of the slowest new PC announced this year. You got a much better value with a $900 Laptop than a Surface Pro if you need a Windows PC for working with your apps you are already using. I won't recommend it for a student

What do you mean by low end? It's an Ivy Bridge core i5, same as on the MacBook Air!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

And this is where Microsoft failed to really define his tablet platform.  The current Surface RT and Pro still have the same Tablet PC identity crisis, they can't decide if the keyboard and mouse should be mandatory or not, if so the laptop platform is still a better solution for mobile desktop computing.

Perhaps, but I'd rather let the market decide about that. Until now, all tablet PC implementations have been low-quality crap, but this trend seems to be coming to an end, so I'm hopeful that in the future I will actually see something worth considering. The aforementioned Razer Windows 8 gaming tablet, for example, appeals me as a Steam Box and general purpose PC. Hopefully other brands such as Valve themselves or Logitech will follow suit and bring decent portable PC gaming platforms to the market that can function as consoles when connected to PC peripherals and TVs while still offering a touchscreen when nothing else is available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Agree for Office and Adobe on performance, but my point was about the 10inch screen, those apps was never created on saving screen real state space and touch input, making those apps harder to work on the Surface than a Ultrabook. There is no part of which a Ultrabook can't equal or beat the Surface Pro for about the same price, this is why the Surface will sold poorly comparing to other PC form factor. I won't recommend it for gamers or child. 

You seem to keep forgetting that the Surface Pro has a 1080p screen despite the fact that it has been repeated to you countless times, meaning it has as much screen real estate as the 21.5" iMac, more than even the 15" classic MacBook Pro with the screen upgrade, and sits at about the same pixel density as the Retina MacBook Pros (208PPI vs. 214PPI). Using a touchscreen is about as comfortable as using a trackpad in that you will always want a mouse for productivity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Apple is different than Samsung, HTC, and Microsoft.  They won't create a product just because there is a market for, they create something they want for them self and family, they cares much about their product. Microsoft is not doing Windows and Office for fun, they doing it because there is a market for they doesn't care much about taking risk, sharp decisions and redefine paradigm.  When Microsoft has creating a new market? I can count a few from Apple. And I got no problem to recommend a Mac or iDevices for what ever needs.

That was Jobs' Apple, which died with him. Current Apple is living on Jobs' legacy and momentum, but that won't last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Nothing here is exclusive to Microsoft, nothing can stop Acer or Asus from producing a 10inch Ultrabook with the same specs.  What I'm saying is for using Windows apps, the laptop configuration is better than hybrid slate-laptop setup than Surface is. This is considering the laptop is cheaper than Surface.

Which it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

My bad, doesn't change the fact that its still awkward to use it on your laps like a regular laptops. But you don't seam to recognize the tablet platform being a distinct and independent platform that needs specials cares and optimizations from apps developers. Apple made a clear statements on how touch device should interact by making touch screens the mandatory human interface, Apple could have port the finder on iOS (I bet they already have), but it make no sense to use a desktop apps on a tablet, this is why every windows tablet as ever failed and Surface Pro is making no differences.  I know i'm repeating my self but Surface and Windows 8 are likes The Homer, the car designed by Homer, even the Surface brand is recycle.

With a tablet, you no longer need a laptop on your lap, but your tablet can still be your laptop, and it can run both tablet and desktop apps. Will that vision succeed? Only time will tell, I personally don't think Microsoft has what it takes to make it happen, but I'm fully convinced that should the concept be properly executed, either by Microsoft, Apple, or anyone else, it will succeed.
post #109 of 150

You forgot one thing. You can use a MacBook Air on your lap.

 

Floppy keyboard + kickstand = laptop you can't use on your lap. Add to this a stylus to lose and you have an awkwardly designed alternative to an ultrabook (never mind MBA: look at all the other options if you don't like Macs) that exactly proves Jobs's point that a notebook that attempts to encroach in the tablet space has to include awkward compromises.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

The Surface Pro has a (probably) wacom digitizer and a capactive touch screen.  The MBA does not.  

The Surface Pro has an optically bonded screen like the iMac.

The Surface Pro has a SDXC reader.  The MBA does not.

The Surface Pro is 1920 x1080.  The MBA is 1366x768.

The Surface Pro has a 42 Wh battery.  The MBA a 35 Wh battery.

The Surface Pro has two 720p cameras.  The MBA has one.

The Surface Pro has a gyroscope, compass/magnetometer and accelerometer.  The MBA does not.

 

The MBA has thunderbolt.  The Surface Pro does not.

 

/shrug

 

I think the Surface Pro is priced well against the MBA.  

 

Regarding the demographics...windows users run the gamut of demographics and the top tier ultrabooks are priced similarly.  The build quality has been uniformly reported as very high and they use injected moulded magnesium (VaporMg) and not plastic.  I think MS has been very smart with respect to Surface pricing where they build a flagship device with a built in significant price umbrella for their OEM partners.  

 

Unlike Google that effectively cratered the profitability of every other 7" tablet maker not named Amazon or Apple.

 

 

 

Again, my point is that neither the MBA nor the Surface pro is a desktop, expensive or otherwise.

 

My thoughts are I wish it had thunderbolt and Haswell.  If anything makes me not get the launch Surface Pro is the fact that simply replacing the CPU with Haswell is going to vastly improve both GPU performance and battery life...although not at the same time. :)  The Surface Pro 2 is going to be a major improvement like going from the original MBA to what we have today.  

 

That might be as early as fall 2013 in time for XMas.

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post #110 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by philipm View Post

You forgot one thing. You can use a MacBook Air on your lap.

Tablets cover that niche perfectly. With a tablet you don't need a laptop on your lap.
post #111 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Do a need to remembering you the Surface "Pro" is a 10inch netbook...

The Core i5 ULV chip is in a distinctly different class to your average netbook.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Have you ever use Office or Photoshop on a 10 in screen? 

I have. It works fine... in the same way that an 11.6" Ultrabook or MBA is fine. Actually a 13.3" Ultrabook or MBA isn't appreciably better either.

 

I wouldn't use any of these devices as my primary PC, which is why I reserve that task for a desktop and 27" monitor.

 

Of course you could plug a Surface Pro into a 27" monitor if you were so inclined, but the available power is still questionable for a primary PC (I mean... who wants to use Photoshop without a full spec Core i7 and 16GB of RAM right?)

 

Having hopped on the hybrid train a few months back I can tell you that where this form factor really shines is as a portable "out and about" device.

 

I used to take my iPad and a laptop wherever I went, now I get away with carrying the one device which happens to be way more convenient that the combination of the other two devices.

 

The funny thing is that I originally had the same idea as you (10" screen sucks for anything but being a tablet) but now that I've owned a hybrid device I'd actually like to do more "laptop tasks" on it rather than less.

 

That obviously puts the Surface Pro into my sites. Drive space is a non-issue (just buy the 128GB version and a 64GB micro SDXC card) as is weight (I'm not a girl!) or size.

 

The biggest question mark is battery-life, which is rumoured to be a touch over 5 hours.

 

In any case this form factor is going to really shine over the next couple of Intel chipset generations.

post #112 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

You seem to keep forgetting that the Surface Pro has a 1080p screen despite the fact that it has been repeated to you countless times, meaning it has as much screen real estate as the 21.5" iMac, more than even the 15" classic MacBook Pro with the screen upgrade, and sits at about the same pixel density as the Retina MacBook Pros (208PPI vs. 214PPI). Using a touchscreen is about as comfortable as using a trackpad in that you will always want a mouse for productivity.
That was Jobs' Apple, which died with him. Current Apple is living on Jobs' legacy and momentum, but that won't last.
Which it isn't.

 

I'm not forgetting how much 1080p seam to be an orgasmic specs without any merit to many and the iPad got a better but not as popular resolution than Surface Pro, so what? the mouse pointer in Windows is still a 16x16 pixels icons and still doesnt got any sort of HiDPI support like OSX and iOS to make Retina display works.  The touchescreen is unusable for Desktop Apps with such a small and hi density screen .

 

Talking of fallacious speaking, Apple can do things like the Retina MacBook and HiDPI OS support without Jobs, just like any other firms.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post


Tablets cover that niche perfectly. With a tablet you don't need a laptop on your lap.

But Surface Pro is not mean to run non-existent Metro Apps, is a Windows PC depending of a keyboard and mouse for using productivity Windows Apps. 

post #113 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

I find it amusing that you keep comparing the Surface Pro to cheap netbooks when its 128GB model has better specs than the 64GB 11" MacBook Air, despite costing exactly the same.

It really amazes me that you never get tired of posting nonsense.

Price:
128 GB Surface Pro is $999. Add $130 for the cheaper keyboard and you're at $1129 ($1199 if you choose the better keyboard).
MacBook Air 64 GB is $999. The 128 GB version is $1099. Keyboard included.

So right off the bat, you're wrong about price. Oh, wait - you're ignoring the keyboard. In that case, you lose the specs argument even more since your system wouldn't have a keyboard. Not to mention, of course, that Microsoft clearly expects that most of these will be sold with a keyboard - have you seen a single advertisement for the surface pro that doesn't involve that silly clicking nonsense?

"Better specs":

Screen size:
MBA - 11"
SP - 10"

CPU
MBA - i5 or i7
SP - i5 (and the i5 is not as good as the one in the MBA)

Frankly, your "better specs for the same price" drivel doesn't hold water.
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post #114 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I have. It works fine... in the same way that an 11.6" Ultrabook or MBA is fine. Actually a 13.3" Ultrabook or MBA isn't appreciably better either.

 

I wouldn't use any of these devices as my primary PC, which is why I reserve that task for a desktop and 27" monitor.

 

Of course you could plug a Surface Pro into a 27" monitor if you were so inclined, but the available power is still questionable for a primary PC (I mean... who wants to use Photoshop without a full spec Core i7 and 16GB of RAM right?)

 

Having hopped on the hybrid train a few months back I can tell you that where this form factor really shines is as a portable "out and about" device.

 

I used to take my iPad and a laptop wherever I went, now I get away with carrying the one device which happens to be way more convenient that the combination of the other two devices.

 

The funny thing is that I originally had the same idea as you (10" screen sucks for anything but being a tablet) but now that I've owned a hybrid device I'd actually like to do more "laptop tasks" on it rather than less.

 

That obviously puts the Surface Pro into my sites. Drive space is a non-issue (just buy the 128GB version and a 64GB micro SDXC card) as is weight (I'm not a girl!) or size.

 

The biggest question mark is battery-life, which is rumoured to be a touch over 5 hours.

 

In any case this form factor is going to really shine over the next couple of Intel chipset generations.

 

There is a world of difference between 1366 x 768 on a 11.6 inch and a 1920x1080 on a 10 inch screen,  One works fine for running legacy desktop applications, the other won't.  It won't be an issue if Surface was like the iPad and only running apps made for this form factor, but this is not the case here, Surface Pro sales pitch is around running legacy apps.

 

Adding a SDXC card is only good for media, it wont give you more space for installing software and most people can't manage external storage efficiently.  28GB of free space on the main Windows volume is not enough for installing Pro apps. 


Edited by BigMac2 - 1/31/13 at 6:46am
post #115 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

There is a world of difference between 1366 x 768 on a 11.6 inch and a 1920x1080 on a 10 inch screen,  One works fine for running legacy desktop applications, the other won't.  It won't be an issue if Surface was like the iPad and only running apps made for this form factor, but this is not the case here, Surface Pro is sale pitch is around running legacy apps.

What's the problem with legacy apps? The way I see it is more like: people who buy an iPad can only ever extract tablet functionality out of it whereas people who buy a Surface Pro can extract both tablet and desktop functionality out of it, not to mention that it runs Windows, so they can even use it for some of the stuff they use their desktops for, probably not optimally, but at least the potential is there, while on the iPad it simply isn't, and the MacBook Air is not a tablet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Adding a SDXC card is only good for media, it wont give you more space for installing software, most people can't manage external storage efficiently.  28GB of free space on the main Windows volume is not enough for installing Pro apps. 

There's a 128GB model at the same price as the 64MB MacBook Air.
post #116 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

There is a world of difference between 1366 x 768 on a 11.6 inch and a 1920x1080 on a 10 inch screen

The Surface's display is certainly better in that sense but I'm not sure it's a world of difference as most Windows apps run on less than 1080p display.

Also, I doubt it will be an issue of long as the MBAs are probably the next set of Macs to get the Retina bump providing that battery life and performance are still within reasonable levels. This is where I trust Apple to do the right thing but have little to no faith in others that will use certain specs to advertise a product without concern how that spec will affect other areas of the devices.

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post #117 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


The Surface's display is certainly better in that sense but I'm not sure it's a world of difference as most Windows apps run on less than 1080p display.

Also, I doubt it will be an issue of long as the MBAs are probably the next set of Macs to get the Retina bump providing that battery life and performance are still within reasonable levels. This is where I trust Apple to do the right thing but have little to no faith in others that will use certain specs to advertise a product without concern how that spec will affect other areas of the devices.

 

Why anybody realize how small UI elements become when you augment resolution and diminish screen size at the same time.  The Apple retina solution won't have work without the software support that comes with, Windows 8 doesn't have that kind of support to make the Surface screen works at HiDPI

 

Good luck with using UI cluttered office apps.  

 

 

 

 

post #118 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

Why anybody realize how small UI elements become when you augment resolution and diminish screen size at the same time.  The Apple retina solution won't have work without the software support that comes with, Windows 8 doesn't have that kind of support to make the Surface screen works at HiDPI

Good luck with using UI cluttered office apps.

In MS's defense there Windows Presentation Foundation, apps being DPI aware, and their settings to alter UI elements are much better than anything Apple has put out to support odd size and pixel density displays so that 1920z1080 display could be made more usable with a couple minutes of tinkering. I wish Apple had done some of these intermediate solutions years ago I'm quite happy with their push in Retina-izing their displays.

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post #119 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post


What's the problem with legacy apps? The way I see it is more like: people who buy an iPad can only ever extract tablet functionality out of it whereas people who buy a Surface Pro can extract both tablet and desktop functionality out of it, not to mention that it runs Windows, so they can even use it for some of the stuff they use their desktops for, probably not optimally, but at least the potential is there, while on the iPad it simply isn't, and the MacBook Air is not a tablet.  There's a 128GB model at the same price as the 64MB MacBook Air.

 

Surface Pro is a fridge and a toaster combine, It a bad laptop and a bad tablet and costing more than both. I can buy for the same price a better PC Laptop and a iPad.  I won't pay 1000$ for a device running tablets apps when a iPad Mini will do better for 329$, I won't pay 1000$ for a gizmo that pretend to be a PRO product be worst at working than a plain regular laptop.  And I'm sure i'm not the only one who thinking that way.

post #120 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

There's a 128GB model at the same price as the 64MB MacBook Air.

At least you dropped the 'better specs' argument.

In any event, your statement while technically true is very disingenuous. MS advertises the Pro exclusively with the keyboard and virtually every review confirms that the keyboard is really necessary. As soon as you add even the cheapest keyboard, your statement is false. In fact, the 128 GB Surface Pro with keyboard is more expensive than the 128 GB MacBook Air.
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