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New smaller form factor Apple TV supposedly outed by the FCC - Page 2

post #41 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Hey, it's new internals. I'll bet it's an A6. But… the A5 already handles 1080p just fine. So why an A6? 

It's not done. And why are people calling it that? The official name is HEVC, last I checked.

Just your luck, huh? lol.gif

1) It's an A5X not A6. The current Apple TV can handle 1080p but not all the profiles and not as efficiently as possible. A new ASIC will help improve things all around.

2) It's HEVC as well as ISO/IEC 23008-2 MPEG-H Part 2 and ITU-T H.HEVC. It had tentative names of H.265 and H.NGVC. H.265 stands out better to me than HEVC.

3) He can return the Apple TV within 14 days of purchase so if comes out next week he may be still in luck.

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post #42 of 68
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
2) It's HEVC as well as ISO/IEC 23008-2 MPEG-H Part 2 and ITU-T H.HEVC. It had tentative names of H.265 and H.NGVC. H.265 stands out better to me than HEVC.

 

It follows the string of existing names better, at least. I like 'em both, I was just unsure if they'd opted to keep calling it H.265 officially, too.

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post #43 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

With the A5X, it might be able to do 3D 1080p. Not a big deal since all newer Blu-Ray players already do this, but a necessary function that Apple TV needs to catch up on. Of course, you would need a 3D TV in order to view and a catalog of 3D movies available.

New Apple Cinema Display and Pixar/Disney and Dreamworks announce they are making their 3d films avail on iTunes. In a shocking move they will be added as another form to the existing SD/720/1080 files, not as separate purchases although those that both the previous set will have to pay an additional $3 to get the 3D added to their purchase. Also announced is a new iTunes Plus style feature where those that bought or received a free SD Digital Copy can pay the difference to get the full set on all movies an TV shows which will now all be in at least 720p
post #44 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

3D comes in many flavors. There's 3D without glasses too, including a technology I'm involved in developing.

I don't mind the glasses if they are the lightweight ones that feel like a pair of sunglasses.
post #45 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

"Steve would have… " Wait, Steve actually WOULD have been furious at them…

 

So. It's a box. And it's smaller. Not a TV, huh. Okay.

 

Forget the TV. Apple is not going to build a TV set. That idea is a red herring.

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post #46 of 68
I'm completely happy with my Apple TV. I'm not sure what there is to improve, other than perhaps lowering the production cost. The 4.22 mm reduction in size might allow for smaller packaging and a reduction in shipping costs. Anyway, I can't see any reason to replace the Apple TV I already have.
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post #47 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panu View Post

So, the FCC outed the new Apple TV. I would never have guessed it was gay! Don't worry, Apple TV, it just gets better.


BTW, "it gets better" ... not like the NIKE slogan "just do it "... /Pedantic
post #48 of 68
Maybe this one will allow me to AirPlay my iPhone App Games on my TV instead of just the music from my iPhone App Games... Seems like just a tweak to the code is needed.
post #49 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybacmac View Post

Forget the TV. Apple is not going to build a TV set. That idea is a red herring.


I Believe they will, but it will be a 4Kset meaning it will be an ultra resolution set or 3840 x 2160 ... and that is a State-of-the-art tv set... (Apple only does "state-of-the-art") ..but . because those types of sets have only been Announced by other manufacturers at the 2013 CES show, it'll take at least two years for Apple to even bring out a 4 K tv set... so they can sell it at or around 4300 dollars ... get it 3840 x 2160 res (4K) and a price of 4K dollars LOL
post #50 of 68
Originally Posted by waybacmac View Post
Forget the TV. Apple is not going to build a TV set. That idea is a red herring.

 

I'm not sure about that. I'm still not totally sold on the intelligence of the idea, but I at least see an avenue whereby I could be sold on it.


Originally Posted by hair View Post
…it will be a 4Kset meaning… …State-of-the-art… (Apple only does "state-of-the-art")

 

Then they should sell an SHV TV instead. That's actually retina, so it fits their current trend.

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post #51 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post


Yes it is official and since Apple can design their own chips perhaps it is included but I am no expert on hardware video encoding so perhaps someone more knowledgeable in the new codec can weigh in.

 

This is a software upgrade only. As long as the GPU has enough oomph. I suspect even the last rev does. Decoding is the easy part, for exactly that reason.

 

But even in that case, it's not clear Apple would want to use it. It would cut bandwidth, which would be great, but they'd have to roll it out across ALL of their platforms, and that doesn't seem likely. They could roll it out only on platforms that can handle it, but then they'd have to keep two copies of all their content. Maybe that solution isn't all that bad.

post #52 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


I'm not sure about that. I'm still not totally sold on the intelligence of the idea, but I at least see an avenue whereby I could be sold on it.

Well, that's a 180
Quote:
Then they should sell an SHV TV instead. That's actually retina, so it fits their current trend.

Won't we need faster residential internet access? In 2011 the average was 9 Mbps, with an expected 34 Mbps in 2016. Only have this Cisco piece on it: http://newsroom.cisco.com/press-release-content?articleId=888280
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post #53 of 68
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post
Well, that's a 180

 

Let's call it a "120°, driving on an S-curve" right now.


In 2011 the average was 9 Mbps, with an expected 34 Mbps in 2016.

 

Only four-fold? That's pathetic, but in line with the past…

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post #54 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


How prevalent are 3D HDTV's? I've read what a failure they are but I also read everyday what a failure Apple is, too.

Blu-ray adoption is clearly higher than 3D HDTV's but 3D might be an easier add for Apple as it is just having good enough HW, not special HW, and the right SW. Is that correct?

If you add to the equation the movie studios pushing Apple to add the feature to their iTunes Store then I can see that as being an option that we shouldn't discount. The 32nm A5X should be able to handle that, right?

 

The A5X must be able to drive two 1080p images at 120 FPS in order to achieve a good quality HD image. It may have just enough, or just short. If it can't, I would bet on the A7 being capable of this. If this capability is dependent on a future processor, expect future generation iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch with that processor to have it.

 

Of interest to note here is that Apple has many 3D patents not presently being used in any product. One is for a system that allows for a 3D display without glasses, similar to Sega's but with better quality and less strain on the eyes. Another is a sensor for a camera that measures the depths of objects with an invisible laser.

 

3D has many issues but all if them are being addressed and it will be commonplace in the not so distant future, like sound, color, stereo, HD, surround sound all have become.

post #55 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


How prevalent are 3D HDTV's? I've read what a failure they are but I also read everyday what a failure Apple is, too.

Blu-ray adoption is clearly higher than 3D HDTV's but 3D might be an easier add for Apple as it is just having good enough HW, not special HW, and the right SW. Is that correct?

If you add to the equation the movie studios pushing Apple to add the feature to their iTunes Store then I can see that as being an option that we shouldn't discount. The 32nm A5X should be able to handle that, right?

 

The A5X must be able to drive two 1080p images at 120 FPS in order to achieve a good quality HD image. It may have just enough, or just short. If it can't, I would bet on the A7 being capable of this. If this capability is dependent on a future processor, expect future generation iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch with that processor to have it.

 

Of interest to note here is that Apple has many 3D patents not presently being used in any product. One is for a system that allows for a 3D display without glasses, similar to Sega's but with better quality and less strain on the eyes. Another is a sensor for a camera that measures the depths of objects with an invisible laser.

 

3D has many issues but all if them are being addressed and it will be commonplace in the not so distant future, like sound, color, stereo, HD, surround sound all have become.

post #56 of 68

Whatever's going on with the Apple TV, I certainly hope it isn't about 3D. Apple pushing that gimmick would be terrible.

 

I'm all for 3D when it's 1. no additional cost and 2. glasses-free. Don't make it another step and don't make it any harder than anything else.

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post #57 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

I'm completely happy with my Apple TV. I'm not sure what there is to improve, other than perhaps lowering the production cost. The 4.22 mm reduction in size might allow for smaller packaging and a reduction in shipping costs. Anyway, I can't see any reason to replace the Apple TV I already have.

Boy- I can!  A ton of reasons- I have the 3 Apple TV 3s and can easily imagine reasons to replace them.  Here is my wish list for what information we know so far:

 

-Applications (Larger SSD- the current 8gb isn't near enough- 16gb would be adequate, 32gb preferred).  You can't have Apps with the current device because of size limitations.

-Stream iTV- whether it be Vios or U-verse.  As mentioned in this thread- they could even do a cable company.

-Built in DVR if it has iTV (again- with 32gb, this would be attainable.  Or at the very least, a software tweak to be able to record and store on a Mac).

-Better search functionality via remote.  Specifically Siri.  Remote looks the same with an additional button you hold, it mutes what you're watching (or turns down substantially), and you tell it what to do or search for.

 

Software related:

-Unified search across all applications (Even if they dont have apps- this should happen).

-If no apps, add some other ones- like Amazon, HBO, Pandora, CNN, ESPN, or other popular ones.

 

I'd gladly not only replace my ATVs, but pay more in the process ($199).  By the way- this would make this the best box in the market.  By a mile.  There is absolutely no reason why Apple shouldn't have all the above on the next release (with the exception of iTV- which is just a wish, but possible).

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post #58 of 68

One idea of how they could do a TV, and with apps, is to have something like Sky Go on it.  In other words, have the cable/sat company have an app that functions like the stb in watching tv, it is simply an app.

 

No, I don't have Sky Go, I live in the US, but from what I have seen online about Sky Go, it would seem like the ideal type of app for an Apple TV.

post #59 of 68
Here in NZ Sky Go is called iSky - not bad. The only hiccup with it here is that it's all flash encoded -> no iPad, no iPhone, bummer.
I believe Sky Go supports both - so good job Sky and boo on Sky nz's implementation.

I use a Mac mini as an htpc connected wifi. Sometimes some buffering but nothing you can't live with.
Quality is superior to other internet streams particularly noticeable with sport channels.
post #60 of 68

Now that you have me thinking here, I'm not sure which is the greatest development of mankind.  Velcro sure is useful, and is interesting based on something natural.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

I believe you meant, the microprocessor is perhaps the greatest thing since velcro.

post #61 of 68

So can people actually buy this model A1469 Apple TV? I see the model number on the Apple site hasn't changed, there are no change references for A5X or other changes in the tech specs. Is this still a future shipping product? 

post #62 of 68
Originally Posted by gtj333 View Post
So can people actually buy this model A1469 Apple TV? I see the model number on the Apple site hasn't changed, there are no change references for A5X or other changes in the tech specs. Is this still a future shipping product? 

 

We know nothing about it beyond this post. If it's not for sale now, there's no reason to expect it being so.

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post #63 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtj333 View Post

So can people actually buy this model A1469 Apple TV? I see the model number on the Apple site hasn't changed, there are no change references for A5X or other changes in the tech specs. Is this still a future shipping product? 

 

It likely is. If you want to guarantee having it though, you obviously have to wait until its confirmed to be in all shipping devices. It sounds like a silent update. I don't think Apple's doing it for any special reason pertaining to the Apple TV product features.

 

Like last year with the die shrunk A5, Apple is using a low end product as a "pilot" production or test bed for producing die shrunk processors to eventually be in flagship products. Last year, it was an A5r2 on Samsung's 32 nm node, used in Apple TV and iPad 2 devices. If this A5Xr2 is on TSMC's 28 nm node, that likely means the processors in 2013 iPhones and iPads will be on TSMC's 28 nm node.

post #64 of 68

I was totally wrong just now.

 

MacTracker just updated and says this new model of Apple TV (A1469) has an A5X chip in it.

 

Not that it would use or need it, but that's the model being sold now; A5X. According to them, at least.


Edited by Tallest Skil - 3/2/13 at 1:12pm

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post #65 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtj333 View Post

So can people actually buy this model A1469 Apple TV? I see the model number on the Apple site hasn't changed, there are no change references for A5X or other changes in the tech specs. Is this still a future shipping product? 
Well - i just received a new ATV from Amazon yesterday and it had the new model number - so it is out and shipping. I can't tell anything different about it.
post #66 of 68

Macrumors.com is saying the background refresh of the AppleTV contains a die shrunk A5, not a A5X. So, original A5 was a 45 nm, 123 mm^2 SoC. The A5r2 in the 2012 Apple TV, iPad 2,4, and iPod touch 5th gen is a 32 nm, 71 mm^2 SoC. This further die shrunk chip is 36 mm^2.

 

So what node is it at?

 

It does not appear to be a 28 nm node chip unless Apple did an amazing job with a re-layout of the SoC, like removing a CPU core, GPU core, and or maybe a memory channel. 1-36/71 = 49% die shrink. That's basically a full node. If the A5r2 at 71 mm^2 was a 32 nm chip, this means that this new 36 mm^2 A5 was fabbed at 22 nm, and it was basically a perfect die shrink.

 

Who has a 22 nm fab? There is only one company.

 

Still, hard pressed to believe that Apple would get a deal from Intel, so maybe it is something else or Macrumors is measuring wrong.

post #67 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Macrumors.com is saying the background refresh of the AppleTV contains a die shrunk A5, not a A5X. So, original A5 was a 45 nm, 123 mm^2 SoC. The A5r2 in the 2012 Apple TV, iPad 2,4, and iPod touch 5th gen is a 32 nm, 71 mm^2 SoC. This further die shrunk chip is 36 mm^2.

So what node is it at?

It does not appear to be a 28 nm node chip unless Apple did an amazing job with a re-layout of the SoC, like removing a CPU core, GPU core, and or maybe a memory channel. 1-36/71 = 49% die shrink. That's basically a full node. If the A5r2 at 71 mm^2 was a 32 nm chip, this means that this new 36 mm^2 A5 was fabbed at 22 nm, and it was basically a perfect die shrink.

Who has a 22 nm fab? There is only one company.

Still, hard pressed to believe that Apple would get a deal from Intel, so maybe it is something else or Macrumors is measuring wrong.

1) It might be a way of introducing Intel's fab with Apple's ASIC but that seems a little suspect but so is the huge from from 8.x to 6mm for a 32 to 28nm drop. I suspect AnandTech will give us a more detailed analysis by tomorrow.

2) So no smaller Apple TV casing as the FCC filing showed. That always seemed odd to me unless there are some major changes coming with this "hobby" category.

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post #68 of 68

Chipworks took apart an Apple TV they bought and they have come to the conclusion that this new A5 is a 32 nm Samsung part.

 

So, either Apple removed half the chip (1 CPU core, 1 GPU core, 1 memory channel, maybe ISP as well), or they had a whole lot of un-used floor plan space in the prior A5 layout, and have re-laid out the SoC to reduce it's size by half on the same node. On to the x-rays.

 

I wonder where they are taking this chip? A $300 to $400 iPhone? A $200 iPod touch? An iOS powered iPod nano? A $250 iPad mini? An iOS powered wristband computer? A Lightning-to-4k video adaptor?

 

Roughly, it's going to cost half as much as the current A5 in the 2012 iPod touch, iPad mini, and iPad devices. Probably costs $5 in bulk.

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