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Valve's Gabe Newell says Apple is biggest threat in future of living room gaming - Page 2

post #41 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

What sort of simplistic games does Newell think people want to play?

Will the Apple TV run Crysis 3 at high resolution? lol.gif

 

Nothing will run Crysis 3 at high resolution. It exists to challenge for hardware makers.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #42 of 73
I don't get Angry Birds. I played it, and it's like: meh. However, I'm no fan of "Steambox". Just ship PC and Mac games: those platforms have excellent hardware. I don't want yet another device fighting for a wall outlet, Ethernet uplink, and an HDMI port on my TV.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #43 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


How does one measure what is a AAA game? If we go by popularity then I think iOS games like Angry Birds will win hands down. Is that a good way to judge interest? How much money is there for games like Crysis than games like Angry Birds?

I'm not a gamer but I do have several strategy and puzzle games that I play for a minute or two here and there. Words with Friends, Strategery, Sudoku, Chess with Friends. The most intensive game I play is Kingdom Rush (love this game!) which I assume "serious" gamers would find sad.

 

No, it's not a question to find 'sad'. If you like it, cool.

To answer your question, there is a way to establish the quality of videogames, just ask those who know videogames. IGN, Kotaku, EUROGAMER, any game website. It's not a matter of being hardcore, just of people who are well placed to judge, and it's possible to judge games as any other art form to an extent. I don't see a problem in having games like those currently on iOS on my TV. What's worrying me is the fact that Gabe somehow feel threatened by that, and that would mean to me that Steam intends on playing on the same ground. It might be great for their revenue sure, but really terrible if all industry turned to that only.

 

The hope I have is that Apple makes something really powerful. But I don't see them doing it. The idea that some have brought of a console updated each year seems not very realistic and would, again, a huge loss for gamer, who can currently count on their 6 yo consoles to play great games, still with amazing experiences.

 

Apple should do streaming. Maybe even partner with Steam to offer their games via streaming, that's my idea.

post #44 of 73
I have been saying for 4 years now that Apple could easily turn the Apple TV into a casual gaming console. The iPhone and iPad could be used as a controller. It wouldnt take much to convert iPad and iPhone apps and games to the Apple TV... If Apple is entertaining this which they should, its just a matter of time for Apple TV to really start saturating the living room. To me this is a no brainer.
post #45 of 73
Quote:
"I think that there's a scenario where we see sort of a dumbed down living room platform emerging %u2014 I think Apple rolls the console guys really easily," Newell said. "The question is can we make enough progress in the PC space to establish ourselves there, and also figure out better ways of addressing mobile before Apple takes over the living room?"

wtf is he talking about?
post #46 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

I think Gabe actually needs to go outside for a walk instead of designing amazing 3D worlds at his desk that you can walk around in. In fact, I think I need to go for a walk too.

Not sure if you referring to his weight, but if you were I can assure you it has more to do with his diet than lack of exercise. And I don't mean to imply he needs to go on a 'diet', but that he's most likely easing the wrong stuff. Sodas come to mind, too.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #47 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by hittrj01 View Post

That's funny. I went outside once too and the graphics were just amazing. Nothing else comes close. Unfortunately, the story and gameplay sucked, so I had to go back inside.

You should play again, they upgraded it to "write your own ending".
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

There is a crossover though. If you sit on the couch with your iPad and it beams screen images to the AppleTV which puts them up on the TV, and you just swipe on the iPad like it was a pure controller, then suddenly all those mobile games become TV games. And this already works ("AirPlay").
I can assure you that AirPlay is no solution to a decent gaming experience on your TV. It's an ad hoc gimmick in my opinion. It's too fiddle-y and would still be no matter how Apple pushed it. No, the only way for Apple to get serious in the living room IMO is for a dedicated TV App Store, with an actual hardware controller available for purchase. This is the only way to have a decent gaming experience on the TV. And if they do this my bet is they make the App Store experience an iTV exclusive feature. This would give people one more reason to choose the iTV over the Apple TV box, or when buying their next TV.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #49 of 73
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post
No, the only way for Apple to get serious in the living room IMO is for a dedicated TV App Store, with an actual hardware controller available for purchase. This is the only way to have a decent gaming experience on the TV.

 

Why.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #50 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicComposer View Post

In my opinion, Linux is what will hurt the Steam box the most. A quick check shows there are currently 13 multi-player Steam games available on that OS. The majority of single-player games are also not AAA that gamers are used to playing. I think Gabe just loves Linux too much; he stated users could install Windows on it themselves when they get it. But really at that point I could just hook my desktop or laptop(with a good GPU) up to a tv and use Steam. In fact that's something I've already done and it works perfectly.

 

Gabe should be more worried about not having games to play instead of making stupid comments like this. The reason the console guys do well and have an audience is because of all the exclusives. You can ONLY play Mario and Zelda games on Nintendo systems for instance.

 

I think you are right about the Linux, but Gabe and Steam are aware of it and doing it deliberately in hopes that users will hop on the Linux train once they see big name support for it.  It came out of the 'Windows 8 is a disaster for developers' rant Gabe did a while back.  They aren't moving to Linux because they love it, they are deliberately supporting it to avoid what they see happening in the industry.  With Microsoft trying to close off its system following in Apple's footsteps, Gabe et al. see a system where developers automatically get bilked for 30% of their revenue (not even profits, revenue) for any game they want to sell on either on either a Microsoft or Apple platform.  Windows' success was largely based on its openness for development.  With Microsoft closing that off, Steam is willing to invest in open source so they will always have a delivery platform.

 

His view now is that Apple will hop in, take over, and milk developers for 30%.  It makes sense that he, as a developer, would support an open system that doesn't skim a substantial amount off his revenues.

 

It could be a familiar story.  Apple gets in, makes a ton of money.  Microsoft under Balmer continues to be on the ice and skating around randomly.  They are not really even skating to where the puck is, they are skating to where Apple had the puck 5 years ago.  Users leery of a closed system that charges them a high price don't have an alternative.  Open source system enters market can offer the same stuff at a lower price.  Apple will try to obstruct competition and be limitedly successful.  In the long run they will fail, in the short run they will be able to protect their margins long enough for them to enter the market for 'the next big thing.'

 

Apple is pretty well positioned to do well for a very long time.  As they converge their markets (music, mobile, tv) their 'stickiness' or 'trappedness' of their ecosystem really weighs in.  Users just don't want to leave when they'll no longer be able to access the stuff they've bought that is trapped in the Apple ecosystem.

post #51 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


No one is talking about major structural changes. Simply upgrading the CPU (or even the GPU) wouldn't prevent existing games from running - they'd just run faster.
 

 

Actually it could.  Look around on Google and you can find information about when people have tried to speed up their older consoles.  The games were programmed to expect very specific hardware speeds and such and when they saw different speeds, most of the games would just lock up and not play or glitch all over.  I'm not sure if this is still how the console companies approach things, but it was certainly true as recently as PS1/PS2 era.  Also, you might end up w/a similar problem to trying to run old DOS games on modern systems.  A lot of them, you might get to run, but they run at a ridiculously higher speed b/c the cpu is so many times faster.  You have to use programs like DOSBox to givethem an envvironment and keep their speeds correct.

 

The game console world has always been pretty different from the PC world, even when you're talking porting the same game.  As things have become more stramlined in that process, they may finally be getting away from a lot of those hard codings, but historically, your suggestion wouldn't work.  Also, those new processors cost more money, eating into their profit structure.  It took 3 years for the XBOX 360 to be profitable from selling the console and that doesn't count the MASSIVE writeoff they had to take for all the millions of Red Ring of Death errors.

post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider 
Currently, the Apple TV does not officially support gaming apps and lacks the hardware necessary to run such software effectively, like a more capable processor and traditional controller.

It would be so easy too:



I suppose HL3 wouldn't be in the list but it could be powerful enough to run full AAA games. The current iPad is PS3/XBox 360 quality and they have 1GB shared memory and it runs passively cooled.

Tim Cook put a bit of a damper on it though:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/29/3051733/tim-cook-not-interested-in-console-business

"I'm not interested in being in the console business in what is thought of as traditional gaming".

If he's talking about the current business model of games, that makes sense because selling loss-leading consoles to make money on software hasn't been a good strategy so far profit-wise. But, every TV is sold at a profit and with more functionality, they'd sell more units and with better games, they sell more software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins 
I mean, games should be for fun, playing with friends and family. Getting fat, full of acne, closed on a room all week, loosing the ability to have a decent conversation with someone else without using a mic and headphones, IS NOT fun.

You can't really dictate what is fun for other people. There are well over 100 million people who like immersive single player or online multiplayer games. They shouldn't be forced to end up like this:



Teen suicide rates will go through the roof. Fortunately, there are alternatives:


Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins 
We are reaching a new era for gaming, and that's great. Gaming was so much fun when all the guys would go to lan houses together or a bar and play CS 1.6 for a one hour, than having a drink, talk, see a few girls... Look at what we have now.

That seems like an overly rosey picture you paint of LAN gaming but I see what you mean with the isolation part. The problem is that games aren't all social. You wouldn't suggest that we should do away with books and force everyone to go to the cinema just because it's more social. A few games have a deep single player narrative that is meant to be enjoyed by a single player. If you try to play those games socially, poeple just sit wondering when it's their turn and you don't want to watch someone else play.

Social games should never become the norm for gaming because they lower creative standards for interactive experiences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxMacCary 
Gabe Newell is a fool.

Yeah, billionaire Gabe Newell who made his billions from the gaming industry knows nothing. He might be wrong on his view about Apple's focus on the living room but iOS devices are replacing PS Vitas and Nintendo DSs. Airplay already gives them a setup almost identical to the Wii U. Whether they choose to capitalize on it is up to them but it's a very real possibility. All it needs is the console developers to put in some more effort. I'm not sure Apple can roll them the way Gabe suggests because the App Store has been around for a while and you still don't see the likes of the full Tomb Raider games or anything like that but it could happen.

I wish Apple would make it happen quite honestly. Think of the top 50-100 PC games of all time. Apple can pay them each $1m to port their game over. $100m is nothing to them and they'd get so many big players on board as well as massively increase TV sales. That's when they get the leverage over the TV studios.
Quote:
Originally Posted by walletinspector 
Only a matter of some coding (I would think) to put the video over AirPlay from the App Game to my TV.

You can already do that on some devices and games:


Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
What's up with that? Processors and graphics for PCs are upgraded on a regular basis, but Sony, Nintendo, and MS take years to upgrade theirs?

There are a number of factors. They usually make a loss or break-even on the console so it only goes into profit after a number of years. Also games take a long time to develop (3 years minimum usually) so by the time someone got a developer kit and game ready, they'd be on a new console and they change the design so much that it breaks older games. Nintendo does it a bit better than Sony and Microsoft but they are mostly for younger players.

They are really going to struggle if they keep leaving out backwards compatibility. The PS4 is rumoured to be going this route and it will be the end of Sony in console gaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
how many terrapixels you can push per second.

Minecraft is full of terrapixels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
For some people, games are about entertainment, not about creating highly detailed, graphically rich environments. Think about some of the most widely played games ever: poker, chess, checkers, Monopoly, Scrabble, and so on.

For developers though, there are profits to consider as well as unique selling points. Social games aren't very innovative and they generally have very repetitive mechanics. It would be difficult to convince someone to spend $60 on a card game but a major franchise like Uncharted, it's fairly easy and the profits from a good game are insane. Angry Birds only makes about $50m/year. That's good return for the investment but Call of Duty Black Ops 2 made $500m in a single day - obviously pre-orders but it made another $500m in the next 2 weeks.
post #53 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

I think you are right about the Linux, but Gabe and Steam are aware of it and doing it deliberately in hopes that users will hop on the Linux train once they see big name support for it.  It came out of the 'Windows 8 is a disaster for developers' rant Gabe did a while back.  They aren't moving to Linux because they love it, they are deliberately supporting it to avoid what they see happening in the industry.  With Microsoft trying to close off its system following in Apple's footsteps, Gabe et al. see a system where developers automatically get bilked for 30% of their revenue (not even profits, revenue) for any game they want to sell on either on either a Microsoft or Apple platform.  Windows' success was largely based on its openness for development.  With Microsoft closing that off, Steam is willing to invest in open source so they will always have a delivery platform.

His view now is that Apple will hop in, take over, and milk developers for 30%.  It makes sense that he, as a developer, would support an open system that doesn't skim a substantial amount off his revenues.

It could be a familiar story.  Apple gets in, makes a ton of money.  Microsoft under Balmer continues to be on the ice and skating around randomly.  They are not really even skating to where the puck is, they are skating to where Apple had the puck 5 years ago.  Users leery of a closed system that charges them a high price don't have an alternative.  Open source system enters market can offer the same stuff at a lower price.  Apple will try to obstruct competition and be limitedly successful.  In the long run they will fail, in the short run they will be able to protect their margins long enough for them to enter the market for 'the next big thing.'

Apple is pretty well positioned to do well for a very long time.  As they converge their markets (music, mobile, tv) their 'stickiness' or 'trappedness' of their ecosystem really weighs in.  Users just don't want to leave when they'll no longer be able to access the stuff they've bought that is trapped in the Apple ecosystem.

Consoles have always been closed platforms: Xbox, Sony, Nintendo (and others). Fully, 100% curated. OTOH, Windows (x86) and Mac OS X remain open: anyone can distribute software over retail or the Internet without approval (or "taxation") from Microsoft or Apple for those platforms. Windows RT and iOS are not open in this sense. But in terms of gaming platforms, the PC and Mac are better suited anyway with support for high resolution displays and better 3D chipsets.

So what problem does Steambox solve? What is Valve trying to prove?

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #54 of 73

I think it is interesting how people (including the story author) are reading this as "Apple is going to morph the AppleTV into a gaming console to directly compete with Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, and the secret thing Valve is working on." Newell didn't say that at all; Merely that Apple is a threat. They don't need to have a directly-competing product; just one that replaces the console in people's lives.

 

I don't expect Apple to produce a dedicated game console, or bring console-style gaming to the AppleTV. However, their current product lines already satisfy much of the potential market growth.

 

We have had an Xbox and a Wii for a few years, connected to a pretty good home theater system. The problem is that it DOMINATES the living room environment, and can't be taken elsewhere very easily - I don't have another room to have a permanent setup in. My wife isn't very interested in gaming, and would rather watch TV, listen to music, or have some relatively quiet time. Many of the games I want to play are inappropriate for my 3-year-old son to watch. Children's games are too complex for him at this point, mainly due to the controllers. He is absolutely fascinated by it, but it just becomes a frustration for me. Finally, family life is full of interruptions, and most console games need focus and continuity.

 

iOS gaming, as it is today, is almost the opposite. The small, personal screen and low sound doesn't impede on what other people are doing, and leaves the TV available for watching TV. The style of games allow for a quick pick-up and put-down at any time. There have been times where we have all been in the same room, wife and I on our phones, and son on the iPad. Occasionally, we will use Airplay and mirror to the TV.

 

I am certainly curious about next-gen consoles, but I am hardly waiting in line with a fist full of cash, and iOS gaming has much to do with that.

post #55 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

I bet Angry birds has more players than crysis, so more people want angry birds.

If responsible parents start to tell kids to buy their own games, instead of paying 60 bucks for each one (or going to piratebay), or to go run outside/play football, you would realize how the number of crysis 3 players would aproach to 0 very quickly.

I mean, games should be for fun, playing with friends and family. Getting fat, full of acne, closed on a room all week, loosing the ability to have a decent conversation with someone else without using a mic and headphones, IS NOT fun. Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is the tipical "pc gamer", the tipical "crysis 3 HD" guy.

We are reaching a new era for gaming, and that's great. Gaming was so much fun when all the guys would go to lan houses together or a bar and play CS 1.6 for a one hour, than having a drink, talk, see a few girls... Look at what we have now.

Thank god for Wii. I hope Apple does the right thing.

Stereotyping is really silly.

I know a large number of gamers, working in IT - myself included. I'm yet to meet type you've described. Everyone I know has other hobbies, interests, family/partner. Among them there are pilot amateurs, hobby scubadivers, bikers, car enthusiasts, photography enthusiasts... you name it. One of them is drift-racing, not illegal street racing but proper weekend racetrack stuff, has sponsors etc.

Yes you will eventually find basement - dweller gamers, but it is not gaming that made them, it is that such individuals got attracted to gaming. Without gaming, they would be obsessively watching movies, Star Trek and other fiction shows, reading/collecting/sorting comics, painting Warhammer figurines and playing table role playing games - among other things - in their basements. Lack of video games would not make them any more social and outgoing, only would shift their focus somewhere else.

I prefer playing co-op games with my mates, though I do play competitive online and single player games too. We all consider co-ops a good way of spending time with friends, especially when you don't have much time. While not enough to jump in a car/bus/bicycle and visit someone, you can play 30 minutes or 1 hour on-line and have fun with real people while, say, shooting zombies. We shoot each others almost as much as zombies, try to bring each other in into hairy (in-game) situations and, in general, have as much laugh, teasing, fun as possible. While this is not same as going out with other people, we consider it as good as, say, playing cards with friends.

We will also do lan party every now and then, whenever someone has enough time/space to launch one. We also stay after-work every now and then - usually Fridays - and play CS Source, UT, Halo on company's lan. We are small company, but with colleagues remoting in from our offices in Wellington and Christchurch, we can get up to 16 people shooting each other in CS, and having a blast.

If nothing else, I think that PC gaming has increased significantly, rather than decreased, time we spend with real people, and gives us much bigger variety of how we spend this time.
post #56 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Consoles have always been closed platforms: Xbox, Sony, Nintendo (and others). Fully, 100% curated. OTOH, Windows (x86) and Mac OS X remain open: anyone can distribute software over retail or the Internet without approval (or "taxation") from Microsoft or Apple for those platforms. Windows RT and iOS are not open in this sense. But in terms of gaming platforms, the PC and Mac are better suited anyway with support for high resolution displays and better 3D chipsets.

So what problem does Steambox solve? What is Valve trying to prove?

I think that Valve fears some Indie games will move from Steam to more casual distribution like AppStores are. For example, everyone with Windows 8 has, by default, access to Windows Store, so that would be first place to look for more casual titles than downloading/creating Steam account etc. Win 8 is still not too common in the wild, but if MS continues in this direction with future Windows releases, Windows Store can start attracting small developers and, eventually, larger ones as well, thus drying out Valve's main source of income.
post #57 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton 
So what problem does Steambox solve? What is Valve trying to prove?

That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbmcavoy 
I don't expect Apple to produce a dedicated game console, or bring console-style gaming to the AppleTV. However, their current product lines already satisfy much of the potential market growth.

The casual gaming market is definitely a big market but there will always be a desire to play certain types of games. Take the following movie for example:



It has characters, it tells a story, it has nice visuals. For a game to replicate that experience, it's in the category of serious/hardcore games. People will always want that immersion. The market for repetitive, dumbed down games is huge and they appeal to a lot of people but it has to wear out. I know people still watch a lot of poor TV shows but where can casual games really go?

I think we'll see lesser demand for dedicated devices just like with the iPod but developers will probably bring more mature titles to the wider audiences and I'd like to see Apple being more active in bringing it about.

I can see this happening once they get the next PowerVR GPUs in there with OpenGL ES 3. Developers one day soon will be able to deploy games to all the platforms at once but the price expectations in the App Store are going to have to go up. Square Enix has already tried this with their games:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/final-fantasy-iv/id575119311?mt=8

For a full AAA game title, I'd say $15-20 is a good target. They have to keep in mind that every game purchase is a new sale and there is no resale possible and the userbase is much bigger so they don't need to be as expensive as the console games.
post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
The casual gaming market is definitely a big market but there will always be a desire to play certain types of games. Take the following movie for example:



It has characters, it tells a story, it has nice visuals. For a game to replicate that experience, it's in the category of serious/hardcore games. People will always want that immersion. The market for repetitive, dumbed down games is huge and they appeal to a lot of people but it has to wear out. I know people still watch a lot of poor TV shows but where can casual games really go?

I think we'll see lesser demand for dedicated devices just like with the iPod but developers will probably bring more mature titles to the wider audiences and I'd like to see Apple being more active in bringing it about.

I can see this happening once they get the next PowerVR GPUs in there with OpenGL ES 3. Developers one day soon will be able to deploy games to all the platforms at once but the price expectations in the App Store are going to have to go up. Square Enix has already tried this with their games:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/final-fantasy-iv/id575119311?mt=8

For a full AAA game title, I'd say $15-20 is a good target. They have to keep in mind that every game purchase is a new sale and there is no resale possible and the userbase is much bigger so they don't need to be as expensive as the console games.

That was really great little flick.

Yeah, Angry Birds and likes are great quick time-killers, and people can accumulate a lot of time playing them in small doses. But.

Playing game like, for example, Uncharted franchise... is like having a part in interactive Indiana Jones movie. All 3 games have great stories, great likeable characters, excellent voice acting, cut scenes, music, top notch visuals with beautifully recreated locations and variety in gameplay - tactical 3rd person shooting, brawler, platforming, puzzle solving, occasional on-rail sequence, even an odd driving/horse riding sequences. Stories are based on history and legends, with a fiction twist (Sir Francis Drake, Incas, Shambala...). It is completely different experience than shooting birds, cutting ropes and landing aeroplanes.

Can it be done on phone/tablet? Technically, yes. Uncharted: Golden Abyss on PS Vita, much as I have seen, doesn't trail much behind PS3 Uncharted titles in terms of visuals etc., and Vita is on hardware comparable to iPhone/iPad. However, there are couple of problems at present, much as I can see them:

1. Storage/distribution. PS3 titles are coming on BD that seem to be filled decently for AAA games. Idea of downloading 20GB + of data and transferring/keeping that on tablet/phone is a bit over the top, even on 64GB devices. As storage grows, maybe... but not just yet. Granted, Vita games are smaller - even Vita's Uncharted is around 3GB, probably stripped off cinematics, compared to PS3 titles... but we are talking about replacing consoles in living rooms, not portables.

2. Controls. Most AAA action games have reasonably complex control scheme. I'd say over 10 separate controls: stick for moving, stick for turning around, directional pad (4 keys, basically) for selecting items and weapons, front sholder keys for shooting, aiming, throwing explosive devices, melee combat, plus keys for jump, duck, stick/unstick to cover, "use" key. Then, general controls for map, pause/calling menu... unless someone comes up with standardised control attachment for phone/tablet, how are you going to simulate all that when only thumbs are free, and are controls going to be even remotely accurate to replace physical controls?

3. Audience. Yes iPad and iPhone have larger user base than consoles. However, most if not all buy consoles for games, so creator of good AAA title can in theory hope that every console owner can be interested in new game. Of tablet/phone users, primary motive for purchase is not gaming. How many users would be interested in complex AAA game, and how many of them will be willing to pay price much chunkier than average iGame, even for just $20? At the end, number of sold copies on iDevice, regardless of user base, could end up being lower than on console, making $20 price completely unsustainable to cover development and other expenses.
post #59 of 73

Fishstick... I think what Newell is about is computers for geeks. Bring back the complexity in the PC and Windows (and Linux) worlds. 'Computers aren't for the rest of us'. That, I think is why he seems to hate Apple. It has been easy for guys like this to whip up hatred against those who try to make computers useful for the rest of society, not just tools for geeks and business.

post #60 of 73
Could this be the same Gabe Newell who I am corresponding with on YouTube over a video comparing Dennis Ritchie with Steve Jobs:
 
 
and I had to correct the lies:
 
Ian Joyner 7 months ago
Well, Ritchie invented C which put computers back in the hands of geeks. Jobs fought geeks and 'engineers' to make computers useful for all. Jobs really got it, and that is his legacy.
 
Gabe Newell 1 week ago
Back in the hands of geeks? You're an ignorant ****. The first Apple operating system was written on a Unix kernel. What was the Unix kernel written in? C. Without Dennis Ritchie, Steve Jobs would have died unknown.
in reply to Ian Joyner
 
Ian Joyner 1 week ago
Yes, a really intelligent reply. Suggest you research the history. Apple was a very successful company without Unix and developed the Mac without Unix. Jobs would have been known without Unix. There is a long Apple history before 1997 when Unix came along. Check it out - especially before you use such ignorant language.
C is a terrible language, so full of holes - C++ much worse. They are geared towards 'computers' rather than 'computing' so are not based on a solid computational model.
Reply  ·   in reply to Gabe Newell
 
Gabe Newell 2 hours ago
"C is a terrible language" -Ian Joyner, 2013.
Without C, you wouldn't have any of your shitty HLLs.
 
Ian Joyner 18 minutes ago
Gabe you show total ignorance of computing history. The original HLLs were COBOL and FORTRAN. These weren't particularly good, so ALGOL was developed in 1958 then 1960 as a wonderful achievement. LISP was also developed in 1958 - another wonderful achievement except all the '()'s and IBM CAR, CDR operators silly.
C was a retrograde step to dumb down HLLs and put back in terrible assembler features that ALGOL carefully avoided.
Do some research beyond the C world. It's out there.
 
------------------------------------------
 
I followed his name and he had posted videos of computer games. The one I looked at was completely tasteless of the player chasing after animals to shoot them. If it's the same Gabe Newell, I wouldn't trust anything he says - he's living in a completely fabricated world with C and Unix being the beginning of all history.
post #61 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.

 

I don't think Valve is going after casual gamers, which is why I don't get why he feels threatened by Apple. Valve is targeting "mainstream gamers." Say, people who would play Half-Life, Portal, Skyrim, or Guild Wars. Gamers probably have a console and/or a Windows PC for gaming. The Xbox 360 is all but the de facto standard console for 3rd party (independent) titles. If Steambox is supposed to be a gaming appliance that connects to an HDTV, then I'd say it's intended to complete against consoles. It would also explain why Gabe feels competition from Apple, since Apple has several devices that can display HD game content on a TV (namely the iPod Touch and iPad via AirPlay). But if Steambox is going head-to-head with Xbox, PS3, and Wii, I don't see what Linux brings to that fight. Maybe it's the lowest hanging branch on the OS tree.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I think the YouTube v. Cinematic Films are great example. A $150 million dollar sci-fi/action movie might be all the talk but YouTube and Vevo will get a lot more views (Gangnam Style has 1.25 billion views on YouTube. Consider the ad revenue from that many views on that single video compared to the risk of investing in a huge blockbuster film).

I hate to say this but the future isn't more of these huge investments in entertainment but a lot more smaller operations that will then be expanded if they become a hit.

 

We are already seeing this yes. But I'm confident that 'big' productions will still be made a lot.

post #63 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


That's a good question. Linux has a 1% marketshare I think, very little software and driver support. I'd say it has to be that he wants to promote a platform where his own Steam service can dominate. I think he is worried about the impact that the Mac App Store and Windows 8 Store will have eventually. I don't see many people migrating away from Steam though as they'd have to abandon their game libraries and Steam has great sales. It might be a gesture to his old employers at Microsoft.
The casual gaming market is definitely a big market but there will always be a desire to play certain types of games. Take the following movie for example:



It has characters, it tells a story, it has nice visuals. For a game to replicate that experience, it's in the category of serious/hardcore games. People will always want that immersion. The market for repetitive, dumbed down games is huge and they appeal to a lot of people but it has to wear out. I know people still watch a lot of poor TV shows but where can casual games really go?

I think we'll see lesser demand for dedicated devices just like with the iPod but developers will probably bring more mature titles to the wider audiences and I'd like to see Apple being more active in bringing it about.

I can see this happening once they get the next PowerVR GPUs in there with OpenGL ES 3. Developers one day soon will be able to deploy games to all the platforms at once but the price expectations in the App Store are going to have to go up. Square Enix has already tried this with their games:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/final-fantasy-iv/id575119311?mt=8

For a full AAA game title, I'd say $15-20 is a good target. They have to keep in mind that every game purchase is a new sale and there is no resale possible and the userbase is much bigger so they don't need to be as expensive as the console games.


Great video! And yes, not anybody can achieve that quality. And more money doesn't mean good either of course. This small video is better than the entire series of Transformers imo.

 

This is just another video game bubble waiting to burst.

http://www.nxistence.net/2012/05/09/the-video-game-bubble/

post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijoyner View Post

Fishstick... I think what Newell is about is computers for geeks. Bring back the complexity in the PC and Windows (and Linux) worlds. 'Computers aren't for the rest of us'. That, I think is why he seems to hate Apple. It has been easy for guys like this to whip up hatred against those who try to make computers useful for the rest of society, not just tools for geeks and business.

Trying to make computers work for geeks and novices alike left everyone not completely satisfied. My hope is that the iPad can satisfy the computing needs of non-geeks and, if anything, enable computers to become *more* geeky again.

post #65 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 
Playing game like, for example, Uncharted franchise... is like having a part in interactive Indiana Jones movie. All 3 games have great stories, great likeable characters, excellent voice acting, cut scenes, music, top notch visuals with beautifully recreated locations and variety in gameplay - tactical 3rd person shooting, brawler, platforming, puzzle solving, occasional on-rail sequence, even an odd driving/horse riding sequences. Stories are based on history and legends, with a fiction twist (Sir Francis Drake, Incas, Shambala...). It is completely different experience than shooting birds, cutting ropes and landing aeroplanes.

Yeah the variety in the games is important. The following videos show how varied the scenes, characters and gameplay can be between higher-end titles:






Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 
1. Storage/distribution. PS3 titles are coming on BD that seem to be filled decently for AAA games. Idea of downloading 20GB + of data and transferring/keeping that on tablet/phone is a bit over the top, even on 64GB devices.

Sizes are increasing more in the desktop market. Max Payne 3 is around 30GB on Steam. Most games tend to be around the 10GB mark but it is an issue. Deus Ex Human Revolution is under 9GB and is a reasonable size they could aim for. The XBox 360 still uses DVDs and although some games have to ship on two discs, I reckon it would work for most games. It's still a bit tight on portable device as you might only get one game on the 16GB units at a time.

One way they get round this in the App Store already is splitting the game, which is easier with digital downloads. Riven for the iPad is one of the bigger titles and they got away with 1.8GB:

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/riven-for-ipad/id536344854?mt=8

Then the price can be lower per part when it's split.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 
2. Controls. Most AAA action games have reasonably complex control scheme. I'd say over 10 separate controls... how are you going to simulate all that when only thumbs are free, and are controls going to be even remotely accurate to replace physical controls?

I think they can overcome this largely by just having shoulder buttons or touch on the back or sides. It's really about simultaneous inputs rather than how many total. Contollers let you have 6 simultaneous inputs. The touch screens only really give you two when you hold the device so the first two fingers of each hand need to be put to use on the back or sides of the device. Context controls and motion gestures can make up for a lot of the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 
3. Audience. Yes iPad and iPhone have larger user base than consoles. However, most if not all buy consoles for games, so creator of good AAA title can in theory hope that every console owner can be interested in new game. Of tablet/phone users, primary motive for purchase is not gaming. How many users would be interested in complex AAA game, and how many of them will be willing to pay price much chunkier than average iGame, even for just $20? At the end, number of sold copies on iDevice, regardless of user base, could end up being lower than on console, making $20 price completely unsustainable to cover development and other expenses.

That's what happened with Nintendo. When Sony dropped the first Playstation into the market, they made a clear statement that it was for older players and they've massively outsold Nintendo with the PS 1 and 2. They didn't do so well with the PS3 so hopefully they've learned from it - the failure from the big consoles now is mostly lack of titles and price. They have something coming soon but they haven't clarified what it is:



Apple has sort of let the market decide but all that ever seems to make it into the charts are games like actual Tetris. Imagine if Tetris was in the top 10 charts for the PS3. They at least put up a section for collections and in the Big Name games, they have a good list of higher quality titles.

Fifa 13, Rayman, GTA Vice City, NFS: Most Wanted, Dead Space, The Sims, Sonic, Final Fantasy, Lego Harry potter, Mirror's Edge, Soul Caliber, Tomb Raider Guardian of Light.

A few are still watered down and most are older games but they are creeping in. I wish they'd keep coming and it wasn't the same list but maybe we'll see more once mobile OpenGL has feature parity with desktop OpenGL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijoyner 
Could this be the same Gabe Newell who I am corresponding with on YouTube

That seems unlikely but you never know. He developed Mac software when he was at Microsoft so maybe he decided to put up his opinion on things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton 
I don't think Valve is going after casual gamers, which is why I don't get why he feels threatened by Apple.

There's an interview with him here and he gives some reasons but still leaves a few unanswered questions:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/8/3852144/gabe-newell-interview-steam-box-future-of-gaming

Part of it seems to be the open hardware model. Apple software only runs on Apple hardware. The problem with Windows is:

"The thing about Windows 8 wasn’t just [Microsoft's] distribution. Windows 8 was like this giant sadness. There’s supposed to be a 40 percent uptake, not a 20 percent decline, so that’s what really scares me. When I started using it I was like "oh my god..." I find [Windows 8] unusable."

Then they have a multi-store plan. They want users to be able to sell their own content (like hats for games) and setup their own store. The other store models would make it impossible for users to sell their own downloadable-content for it. One gamer apparently made over $500,000 selling digital hats or something.

for mobile gaming:

"So this [Steam Box] is called "Bigfoot" internally, and we also have "Littlefoot." [Littlefoot] says "what do we need to do to extend this to the mobile space?" Our approach will be pretty similar. We also think there’s a lot that needs to be done in the tablet and mobile space to improve input for games. I understand Apple's [approach]; all the way back in '83 when I met Jobs for the first time, he was so super anti-gaming.

In one of the designs that we’re building on the controller side, it has this touchpad and we’re trying to figure out where that’s useful. We don’t want to waste people’s money by just throwing in a touchpad. Once we understand what the role is of multitouch in these kind of applications then it’s easy to say you can use your phone for it."

That comes back to the open hardware model. With Apple's model, games have to be adapted to the hardware rather than the other way round.

People are already buying traditional laptops and computers so I doubt that a Steam Box would offer much. Some of them look quite cool but so does a Mac Mini. I'd take a Mini over a Linux Steam Box. People will also install Windows on the boxes anyway (Windows 7 most likely) because there aren't enough games for Linux so it doesn't really achieve anything.
post #66 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Yeah the variety in the games is important. The following videos show how varied the scenes, characters and gameplay can be between higher-end titles:

[YouTube videos]

Those are all very impressive but I'd personally rather see a movie with all those elements than play a first-person shooter game.

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post #67 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Yeah, Angry Birds and likes are great quick time-killers, and people can accumulate a lot of time playing them in small doses. But.

 

There are more immersive iOS games than Angry Birds.

 

 

Quote:
1. Storage/distribution. PS3 titles are coming on BD that seem to be filled decently for AAA games. Idea of downloading 20GB + of data and transferring/keeping that on tablet/phone is a bit over the top, even on 64GB devices. As storage grows, maybe... but not just yet. Granted, Vita games are smaller - even Vita's Uncharted is around 3GB, probably stripped off cinematics, compared to PS3 titles... but we are talking about replacing consoles in living rooms, not portables.

 

Given that I download most of my AAA titles from Steam this does not appear to be a problem for consoles in living rooms.  The aTV would need more local storage or the ability to store these on a Time Capsule.  The latter more likely and more useful than the former.

 

 

Quote:
2. Controls. Most AAA action games have reasonably complex control scheme. I'd say over 10 separate controls: stick for moving, stick for turning around, directional pad (4 keys, basically) for selecting items and weapons, front sholder keys for shooting, aiming, throwing explosive devices, melee combat, plus keys for jump, duck, stick/unstick to cover, "use" key. Then, general controls for map, pause/calling menu... unless someone comes up with standardised control attachment for phone/tablet, how are you going to simulate all that when only thumbs are free, and are controls going to be even remotely accurate to replace physical controls?

 

 

OMFG.  Like it would be difficult to add BT controllers to an aTV or even buttons to an iPhone/iPod Touch.  Nor are AAA action games the be all and end all of AAA gaming.  For example, Mass Effect can be played without two analog sticks, a d-pad and 16 buttons.  

 

Quote:
3. Audience. Yes iPad and iPhone have larger user base than consoles. However, most if not all buy consoles for games, so creator of good AAA title can in theory hope that every console owner can be interested in new game. Of tablet/phone users, primary motive for purchase is not gaming. How many users would be interested in complex AAA game, and how many of them will be willing to pay price much chunkier than average iGame, even for just $20? At the end, number of sold copies on iDevice, regardless of user base, could end up being lower than on console, making $20 price completely unsustainable to cover development and other expenses.

 

Given that the majority of the revenue stream in the App Store is games I would guess a whole lot even at $20, certainly at $10.  Not so much at $60.

 

A Mass Effect or KOTOR like game would do well on the iPad.  The key to profitability is to sell a AAA base game with a shorter main plot line (8 hours vs 20 hours of playtime content if you zerg rush through the main plotlline) for $19.99 and then several medium sized DLCs (2-3 hour playtime) for $4.99 shortly after launch. 5 high quality 2-3 hour DLCs will get you to about the same level of voice content, level design and additional art assets as the original 20 hour target with a total revenue of $45.00.

 

Diablo like games (aka Dungeon Hunter) do well.  I haven't bothered with DH3 because I tend to not like Freemium games.

post #68 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Those are all very impressive but I'd personally rather see a movie with all those elements than play a first-person shooter game.

 

That's what god mode is for. LOL.

post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

That's what god mode is for. LOL.

I had to look that up if that's any indication of my interest in such games.

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post #70 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


I suppose HL3 wouldn't be in the list but it could be powerful enough to run full AAA games. The current iPad is PS3/XBox 360 quality and they have 1GB shared memory and it runs passively cooled.

Tim Cook put a bit of a damper on it though:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/29/3051733/tim-cook-not-interested-in-console-business

"I'm not interested in being in the console business in what is thought of as traditional gaming".

 

D...the conference where Apple CEO's go to deny what they are working on.

 

Jobs 2003:  "No plans at the current moment to make a tablet."

 

http://allthingsd.com/video/steve-jobs-at-d1-we-think-the-tablets-gonna-fail/?mod=atd_outbrain&mod=obnetwork

 

This despite Protoype 035 built in 2002 sitting in their lab.

post #71 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX 
Those are all very impressive but I'd personally rather see a movie with all those elements than play a first-person shooter game.

Having a directed movie scene is usually more interesting but there are many gameplay scenarios that don't involve shooting everything that moves. The 3rd person view works best for this. Scenes can vary from looking out from a destroyed spaceship across a planet surface, to a psychotic dream sequence to a horror scenario where you don't know where the noises are coming from:






A lot of games do go down the 'let's just make another first-person shooter' route and most at least have that gameplay element somewhere but a few developers take time to flesh out the good bits. I wish Apple had in internal game studio like Microsoft or at least partner with one (Square Enix would be my preference) so they could set a standard for games and just commission them to develop a few top-tier games that have these more visceral experiences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht 
A Mass Effect or KOTOR like game would do well on the iPad.

They made a mobile version of Mass Effect but it's nowhere near as good as the full Mass Effect.



You can see at 3:05 the combat just doesn't work very well because aim and shoot aren't really separate. Plus the AI and collision detection is quite poor. The AI is one of the worst things about the mobile games. Gameloft games are appalling at this. It could be down to the CPU processing power but they need to fix it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht 
D...the conference where Apple CEO's go to deny what they are working on.

Jobs 2003: "No plans at the current moment to make a tablet."

He was totally convincing too. Tim seems to be a bit too honest but maybe that's his diversion. I doubt it though, I don't think they care much about games. They demoed Halo and Quake at the Keynotes and had Carmack and EA as speakers at times but I see them being dragged into it more than they want to be involved in it.

I understand that feeling towards games because especially older games, you were really messing around with very unrealistic graphics and AI. We are getting much closer to interactive cinema / emotional gaming and it doesn't have to be looked down on.

It would make some serious amounts of revenue too. Imagine if they had major game franchise launches at the keynotes exclusive to iOS. It doesn't matter if they only appeal to a small portion of users, that can bring in a lot of money and makes iOS more attractive over Android.
post #72 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


They made a mobile version of Mass Effect but it's nowhere near as good as the full Mass Effect.

[video deleted]

You can see at 3:05 the combat just doesn't work very well because aim and shoot aren't really separate. Plus the AI and collision detection is quite poor. The AI is one of the worst things about the mobile games. Gameloft games are appalling at this. It could be down to the CPU processing power but they need to fix it.
...
I understand that feeling towards games because especially older games, you were really messing around with very unrealistic graphics and AI. We are getting much closer to interactive cinema / emotional gaming and it doesn't have to be looked down on.

 

First interactive cinema and emotional gaming is possible with 2003 level graphics and CPU.  Meaning XBox level. How do we know this?  KOTOR.

 

Second the Mass Effect Infiltrator game was designed to be played with shoot-on-aim as a game design decision.  You click on the target and then maneuver the cross hair onto the target.  With auto-aim turned off in the update it plays more like other FPS.  

 

Mass Effect Infiltrator is NOT in the same ARPG genre as Mass Effect.  The linear story is designed to move you from combat scene to combat scene.  There are no roleplaying aspects to the game and it's just a 3rd person shooter with an interesting (but not so well liked) take on shooting mechanics.

 

Thus comparing Mass Effect to Mass Effect Infiltrator is dumb.

 

For interactive cinema/emotional gaming the combat mechanics are less important than the characters and plot.  The iPad is certainly good enough for KOTOR level combat mechanics of queued combat maneuvers and cooldowns.  Frankly such combat mechanisms are far more approachable for non-twitch ARPG gamers than hard core FPS or fighting game mechanics.  The combat mechanics of Jade Empire were not that complex either in comparison to fighting games that require twitch-combos to win.  Also something adaptable to the iPad.

 

If anything the Paperman short you posted above shows that a compelling story does not require uber realistic CGI where every hair is rendered and every boob jiggle run through a high fidelity PhysX simulation.

post #73 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post

 

The iPad is certainly good enough for KOTOR level combat mechanics of queued combat maneuvers and cooldowns.  Frankly such combat mechanisms are far more approachable for non-twitch ARPG gamers than hard core FPS or fighting game mechanics.  The combat mechanics of Jade Empire were not that complex either in comparison to fighting games that require twitch-combos to win.  Also something adaptable to the iPad.

Yes the iPad is perfect for traditional RPG style combat. Ironically a "dumbed-down" device needs to go back to more hardcore, nerdy, numbers-game type combat. But I have tried and tried and given up playing shooters on the iPad.

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