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Apple to cease European Mac Pro sales March 1 due to regulatory requirements - Page 2

post #41 of 162
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post
Why?

It's a legit question. What is so unique about the Xserve, that can't be done with any existing system, that makes it so needed to bring it back.

 

Just ignore him. He can't honestly think a server would be better than a workstation for workstation needs.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #42 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

If that's the case, then good for Apple. They're basically saying, "You know absolutely nothing about cooling systems, so we're not going to sacrifice the quality of our device or engineering to meet your uninformed requirement."

 

Yes, it's better not to conform to laws in such a large market as the EU.  Better to take a principled stand than to chuck in some different fans and make EU sales.

 

/snark

post #43 of 162
Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawg View Post
Yes, it's better not to conform to laws in such a large market as the EU.  Better to take a principled stand than to chuck in some different fans and make EU sales.

 

The laws of physics beat the laws of government every time.

 

I'd rather them be objectively right and make the best product than conform to nonsense.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #44 of 162

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 5/16/13 at 12:40pm
post #45 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


Ah, good to see you post.

I don't get it, how are the fans unprotected? The case is the protection, no? I've never tried to boot it up with the side panel off, don't think you can, but then again there aren't any kids around a Mac Pro in pro environments, are there?

I for one hope they stick to the same design. The outer one that is, the inside gets redesigned almost every time. Which not that many people know or see, but ok.

Yes, you can boot a Mac Pro with the side panel off.  For some diagnostic tests you have to run it with the side panel off to access the logic board.

 

Lots of home users have Mac Pros, and many of them have little brats who like to go sticking their fingers in things.  The fans are unprotected because it's possible, if one tries hard enough, to stick a finder through the grills.  The obvious solution for homeowners is not to let little brats play around an open Mac Pro, and to keep the side panel locked on.

 

The obvious solution for Apple is to change the grill designs on the fans.  It's a simple change that would be done if Apple cared about continuing Mac Pro sales. This suggests that either the Mac Pro will be EOLed soon, or a replacement will be released soon enough to leave only a small gap in availability.

post #46 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

The laws of physics beat the laws of government every time.

 

I'd rather them be objectively right and make the best product than conform to nonsense.

 

I'm sure that sentiment would be widely popular among Apple stockholders, lol.

 

It's not a big deal, the EU just wants different fan grills.  Consumer products must conform to regulations in every country and Apple has plenty of experience in meeting those regulations.  Apple also have plenty of cash on hand to update the fans if they desired.

 

Most likely this isn't really even a problem with a Mac Pro replacement imminent.  Or, the Mac Pro will be EOLed soon anyways.  Either way, it's understandable that Apple would just quietly discontinue MP sales in the EU.

post #47 of 162

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 5/16/13 at 12:40pm
post #48 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

Just kill it and bring back the Xserve.

Why?

It's a legit question. What is so unique about the Xserve, that can't be done with any existing system, that makes it so needed to bring it back.

It's rackable, which makes it better for clustering (I've already answered to this). For stuff that doesn't need the computational power of a cluster, you have the MacBook Pro.
post #49 of 162

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 5/16/13 at 12:39pm
post #50 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

We can't have anybody touching the fan blades now, can we?lol.gif

 

If somebody is pro enough to buy a Mac Pro, you'd assume that they were also pro enough to not touch any fan blades. Maybe Apple should also put a warning label on the power contact, do not eat this cord, this cord is not meant for human consumption. Who knows what somebody might think of, without a regulation in place that would have stopped the person from eating the cord.


As I suspected the document itself is a bit more obscure and generic. I'm assuming this is the part that covers the mac pro. It's just a list of standards that doesn't specifically take aim at the Mac Pro's fan blades. I did laugh at your contrived warning label. I like the wording.

 

 

Quote:
.2.5 Mechanical hazards
Injury may result from:
− sharp edges and corners;
− moving parts that have the potential to cause injury;
− equipment instability;
− flying particles from imploding cathode ray tubes and exploding high pressure lamps.
Examples of measures to reduce risks include:
− rounding of sharp edges and corners;
− guarding;
− provision of SAFETY INTERLOCKS;
− providing sufficient stability to free-standing equipment;
− selecting cathode ray tubes and high pressure lamps that are resistant to implosion and
explosion respectively;
− provision of markings to warn USERS where access is unavoidable
post #51 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

I used to be a fan of XServe but these days, with so much of the software used for those sorts of tasks being free and open source, what does one need a Mac server for that they couldn't do with Linux?

It's about Apple's ecosystem, not me. I think the Xserve makes a lot more sense than the Mac Pro, first because currently Apple has no standard-sized rack-mountable server option that one can easily stuff in a data center, and secondly because the modularity that made the Mac Pro relevant can now be accomplished through Thunderbolt (and is also present in the Xserve).
post #52 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

I used to be a fan of XServe but these days, with so much of the software used for those sorts of tasks being free and open source, what does one need a Mac server for that they couldn't do with Linux?

Run Microsoft Office.
Run Quicken.
Run Photoshop
Run iTunes
Run iPhoto
Sync with an iPhone
And 10 million more things.

Even if you want to pretend that servers never run desktop apps, there are Mac server apps that don't run on Linux. Filemaker, for example.
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post #53 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

I used to be a fan of XServe but these days, with so much of the software used for those sorts of tasks being free and open source, what does one need a Mac server for that they couldn't do with Linux?

 

Run Final Cut Pro X, Logic Pro, Adobe After Effects, Illustrator, Cinema 4D, AutoCAD, Maya, Mathematica. I dunno. Big number crunchy stuff. You know, for professionals who'd rather do things using their workstations rather than to their workstations.

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post #54 of 162

Have any new super chips been released lately that Apple would put into a new Mac Pro?

 

Does anybody think that Apple's chip design company they bought a couple of years ago is now up to creating a super chip for the Mac Pro?
 

post #55 of 162

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 5/16/13 at 12:42pm
post #56 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

It's rackable, which makes it better for clustering (I've already answered to this). For stuff that doesn't need the computational power of a cluster, you have the MacBook Pro.

So you see no need for users to want a powerful, non-portable consumer/prosumer machine? All you can think of are users with server racks at their house and users that would need a 13 or 15" display on a notebook PC? Seriously?

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post #57 of 162

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 5/16/13 at 12:42pm
post #58 of 162

can I buy a USB fan after March 1?

post #59 of 162
Apple to cease Mac Pro sales in Europe.

*But* it is possible Apple will totally sell Mac Pros in Europe, even though they just said today that they will cease doing that.

Definitely a great article!
post #60 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

FileMaker's a good use case, but I can't imagine people using a server for the other tasks you listed.  And by itself, Filemaker, fun as it is, apparently wasn't enough to keep the xServe line around, esp. in a world driven by MySQL and MongoDB.

Dude, in case you haven't noticed, the Mac Pro IS a server, it's just built into a tower rather than into a proper rack-mountable box. Those CPUs are designed with reliability in mind; they emphasize things that you don't really need in a workstation but pay premium for in a Mac Pro, such as multi-socket installations, ECC memory, and lower temperatures. These things are important in servers that run 24/7 and can actually extract some benefit from parallel processing to serve requests from multiple, independent sources. On the desktop, the only kinds of applications that can take advantage of lots of cores or CPUs are compression, encoding, and cryptography, which perform lots of processing on very small amounts of data that can easily be cached thus eliminating or mitigating the memory bandwidth and latency bottlenecks, tasks that you can and should be offloading to a server anyway; other kinds of single-user applications that require access to lots of data, such as Photoshop, will always have problems no matter how many CPUs you throw at them because all the CPUs are limited to the performance of the memory bus. While it is theoretically possible to take advantage of multiple memory busses on systems like those for this kind of job, in practice this requires the operating system to keep lots of memory access statistics and physically rearrange memory pages on the fly to make it possible, and current operating systems simply don't do that yet.

Forgot to mention that the memory bandwidth problems are even worse on x86-based systems, because for backward compatibility, x86 forces cache coherence across the board, so any writes to memory done through one cache unit have to be immediately propagated and synced in all other cache units, as well as the RAM itself, if at least one of the other cache units don't have that particular memory space cached.

And this is why multithreaded development is hard. If you thought it was only because of the need to control access to shared resources, you were only scratching the surface. I know this because I've made that mistake myself and had to learn the hard way (watching finished multithreaded implementations perform almost as poorly as single-threaded ones because I didn't know what I was doing).
Edited by Vaelian - 2/1/13 at 1:39am
post #61 of 162

Read somewhere it could be a fan issue: they are unprotected.

 

The next design that Tim said is coming this year could meet the requirements and be sold.

 

We'll see.

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #62 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post

The problem turns out to be that the fans are "unprotected"... but you have to open the case to get at those unprotected fans. Jeez.
Any source to backup your unsubstantiated claim? I doubt it has anything to do with electrical hazard from 5V fans, so I don't believe that at all.
post #63 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

It's kind of stupid reason, but the Europeans always have screwy laws too.
What do you know about that exactly? I fail to see how electrical security requirement can fall under your "screwy law" label...
post #64 of 162
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post
Any source to backup your unsubstantiated claim? I doubt it has anything to do with electrical hazard from 5V fans, so I don't believe that at all.

 

Really? You read 'unprotected fans' and your first guess is "electrical hazard"?

 

Call me old-fashioned, but I wish more fans were like they were a few decades ago. Might instill some intelligence in people early. 

 

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #65 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Apple 
[" url="/t/155739/apple-to-cease-european-mac-pro-sales-march-1-due-to-regulatory-requirements#post_2269057"]
Yes, it is stupid and quite totalitarian. Even though the trend in recent years has been towards lower powered CPUs and mobile devices, if somebody wishes to buy a computer that consumes a bit more power, then nobody should be able to come along and tell them that they can't, especially not a bunch of hypocritical weenies in the EU. A Mac Pro should be damn powerful and not be constrained by any ridiculous energy requirements. If I'm laying down thousands of dollars for a Mac Pro, I demand a beast of a machine, and one that is not limited in any way.

If it is a power issue, then Apple should either halt all sales of the Mac Pro to the EU region, as there probably aren't too many pros there anyway. Or Apple can release a lower powered model for the EU region in which half of the cores are disabled. 
Your typical and ignorant garbage... Don't have a clue of what is in question yet go on with his ridiculous and prejudiced slandering...
post #66 of 162

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/5/13 at 3:09pm
post #67 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Dude, in case you haven't noticed, when the world needs a server they use Linux.  You don't need a server to synch iTunes with your iPod, leaving the only reason to use a Mac server being Filemaker.  For everything else there are reasons the world chooses Linux, such as:

Not really, Linux is not properly suited for all the tasks, has design issues, is not POSIX compliant, and no Linux distribution integrates seamlessly with OS X or Apple's ecosystem. While you can make that happen, it is, again, not seamless, thus justifying investment in the hardware, which is a lot cheaper than human resources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

All the more reason to use the de facto standard for modern servers and supercomputers.  I realize this is a lonely view here, but I support Apple's move to drop XServe.  It wasn't selling; Xeon processors in a rack-mounted form factor are commodities not worth Apple's time to address.

And the Mac Pro isn't?
post #68 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

All fans must be fully encased in a single piece of molecularly-rebonded translucent plastic, just to be safe.

Like Apple fans, you mean¿
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawg View Post

Yes, you can boot a Mac Pro with the side panel off.  For some diagnostic tests you have to run it with the side panel off to access the logic board.

iForgot. RAM test as well, with those lights coming on. Neat stuff.
Quote:
Lots of home users have Mac Pros, and many of them have little brats who like to go sticking their fingers in things.

True. I just cannot phantom the idea of creating a law for every freakin' possibility of injury. What's next? Illegal to cross a street without properly looking because you might get run over?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post

Dude, in case you haven't noticed, the Mac Pro IS a server...

It's not: no LOM, no hot swap HDD, no redundant PSU...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Call me old-fashioned, but I wish more fans were like they were a few decades ago. Might instill some intelligence in people early.

Agree. if we're going to get laws and redesigns just so people don't have to think anymore we'll evolve into being, well, dumb.
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post #69 of 162

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/5/13 at 3:12pm
post #70 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

True, Linux is not UNIX, but tell us:  where has the few areas where the Linux Standard Base isn't a superset of POSIX ever slowed down the dominance of Linux in the server market?

Did you stop discussing technical merits because the subject is no longer convenient to you? Linux succeeds because it's something anyone can easily add their crap to, even I've done it myself as part of a port to PDA nearly a decade ago, not because it's technically superior. Linux's support for real time multithreading is crap as it suffers from inverted priority issues resulting from lacking POSIX compliance; likewise, Linux's support for asynchronous IO is also crap compared to any BSD flavor, OS X included, due to design issues that can not feasibly be fixed without changing a boatload of code. Have these things stopped Linux from growing in popularity? No, but neither did Internet Explorer's issues. Most people, including system administrators don't really understand the kind of effort software engineers like me have to put into working around Linux's issues. As a user I do enjoy Linux, it makes everything feel easy compared to other kernels, but as a software engineer I loathe it, and if given the choice I'd rather write code for Darwin servers, which are at least POSIX 2001 compliant, than for Linux that is roughly, but not exactly, POSIX 2008.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Apple is a consumer electronics company, having positioned themselves as leaders in a "post-PC era".

So you'll have to take that up with Apple.  How many years has it been since they saw it worth their time to update the Pro?

I don't know, I don't care about the Mac Pro, in my opinion it serves no real purpose, which is why I said that they should kill it and bring back the Xserve, which would target a bigger audience than the Mac Pro does. Mac Pro is server hardware in a workstation box that you can't feasibly host in a data center; Xserve is server hardware in a server box that you can host in a datacenter or use as a workstation.
post #71 of 162

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/5/13 at 3:12pm
post #72 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

Here's where you can let Apple know they screwed up by putting a server in a workstation case:
http://www.apple.com/contact/

Good luck with that.  Let us know how it works out.

Personally, I support Apple's decision on XServe, and I also support their decision to let the Mac Pro languish given their current product focus.  The world has moved on, and Apple mas moved on to more profitable things.

That's ridiculous. I'm just stating my opinion, I'm not a client for any of those products. I'm a urban digital nomad, my MacBook Pro is my desktop and everything I need. I'm not saying either product is needed, only that if they have to have a modular product, at least let that be the Xserve.
post #73 of 162

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/5/13 at 3:12pm
post #74 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post



I don't know, I don't care about the Mac Pro, in my opinion it serves no real purpose, which is why I said that they should kill it and bring back the Xserve, which would target a bigger audience than the Mac Pro does. Mac Pro is server hardware in a workstation box that you can't feasibly host in a data center; Xserve is server hardware in a server box that you can host in a datacenter or use as a workstation.

Somehow my post got messed up even though I rewrote it, it submitted the old one. Your perception here is off. Intel leverages Sandy Bridge E in both Xeon and i7 builds, and they cost the same amount. Sandy EP is used by Dell, HP, and all of the rest, mostly in dual package workstations. Apple uses both from the Nehalem/Westmere era currently. No data center would build around Apple hardware. Apple didn't even use the Xserve in their own centers. Minis work for small offices. If it's something IO intensive, a mac pro refactored to be rackmount friendly would suffice for limited demand. It's not like Apple even has the infrastructure set up for enterprise server support, yet you think they'd be better off resurrecting something they ditched long ago. Even with the long duty cycles of server hardware, it's unlikely that a large number of customers would return. I think you're way too stuck on it being server hardware. You're thinking of E5-46XX and E7 hardware.


Edited by hmm - 2/1/13 at 1:43pm
post #75 of 162
More EU red tape. Hopefully we'll be out of it soon
post #76 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

 

Europe actually has quite a logical body of law, per country, apart maybe for France which suffers from excessive legislation.

You're joking right? Spain going broke and losing 2 existing jobs for every 1 "green" job they create. Germany going "green" and having electric rates go up 61% since 2000. Greece in such economic turmoil that people are having to cut down every tree they can in order to have heat and cook food. That's logical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


 What's next? Illegal to cross a street without properly looking because you might get run over?
 

No they have pushed the responsibility from the pedestrian to the automaker. Pedestrian Impact Standards are why cars are getting blocky front ends with tall hoods. Larger area to absorb impact and more space between the hood and engine so it crushes when people step in front of your car.

post #77 of 162

All I can say is that I am getting tired of constant OSX updates that are less and less functional and are only designed to increase profit, less attention to Pro Apps, and the neglected Mac Pro. I am really glad I bought into the 2010, 5,1 Mac Pro as it has not changed substantially since. Snow Leopard 10.6.8 will remain my go to OS as it is stable and sane in its operation. I have Mountain Lion on one internal boot drive for those companies like Adobe that only really care about the latest release for stability in their apps. Multiple boots, not very easy on an iMac. Please, a Mac Pro in the future so developers keep developing for pros. I love my iPhone and my iPad, but I’m not buying another one soon, and can only do my work on a Mac Pro level machine. Please, GIVE US A TIMELINE, or get off the pot!

post #78 of 162
Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
All I can say is that I am getting tired of constant OSX updates that are less and less functional and are only designed to increase profit…

 

We'll have to wait for that to start happening before you can say you're tired of it.


…less attention to Pro Apps…

 

Completely redesigned = "less attention to"?


I am really glad I bought into the 2010, 5,1 Mac Pro as it has not changed substantially since.

 

That's because it hasn't changed.


Mac OS 9.2 will remain my go to OS as it is stable and sane in its operation.

 

You, 2001.


I have Mountain Lion on one internal boot drive for those companies like Adobe that only really care about the latest release for stability in their apps.

 

HA! Adobe caring about stability or the latest features! Oh dear, that's a knee-slapper!


Multiple boots, not very easy on an iMac. 

 

Holding Option is hard.


Please, a Mac Pro in the future…

 

Cook promised one. Not sure why people STILL keep sacrificing goats to pagan gods as though we know nothing about its future.


…so developers keep developing for pros.

 

It's called the iMac.


Please, GIVE US A TIMELINE…

 

"This year". You'd think since you care so much you would have paid more attention.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #79 of 162

I stand by my statements despite your derision. Check Mac Performance Guide. We are both talking performance, not promises.

post #80 of 162
Originally Posted by Jim W View Post
We are both talking performance, not promises.

 

Right. There's no question that it's hopelessly out of date, except where it isn't. It's due—overdue in some cases—but that we know we're getting a new one is more than we've ever known before.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
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