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Apple exec John Couch meets with Turkish president over possible $4.5B iPad buy - Page 2

post #41 of 82
I'd have that same exact smile if I was about to make a $4.5 B sale.
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post #42 of 82
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Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post

Microsoft is invincible !




Come back here! I'll bite yer kneecaps!!!
post #43 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by konqerror View Post


I think you misunderstand, Apple accidentally swapped the position of two keys on the Turkish F keyboard from where they're supposed to be. It's a bug.

This is not a bug. Apple simply screwed up.

A bug means it does not work as it is programmed to work.

post #44 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I think these figures must be wrong somehow, $4.5bn?

for 15 million iPads @ $300 each.

Probably a buttload of tech support & services also.

post #45 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Apple will have little chance of winning this contract.

Who else is going to sell them 15 million iPads?

Turkey specifically wants iPad, not tablets.

post #46 of 82
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post
All Apple wants to do is accumulate reserve cash as a safety net for when all carrier subsidies disappear.

 

Why does this make any sense?

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post #47 of 82

If the Turkish government are looking at buying that many iPads, the sales there can't be that high. That's why Apple don't release there with the other big purchasing countries. Someone has to be 1st to get stuff, someone has to be last. There are places that don't get them at all so stop ya whinging.

post #48 of 82
Let me clarify some things. FATIH Project, the project that has ALREADY given some tablets to some students as prototypes, is tried to be nationwide now in Turkey. Now, our government wants to change their choice with iPads. I found it very sensible as the tablets that were given were not that good. I hope this will work because I am also a high school student.

For the "second-class citizens" thing; yes, we are definitely are annoyed with the idea of waiting 2-3 months more than the other countries. Moreover, all the Apple devices are x2-x3 more expensive than the other countries (even more from KSA)! If an Apple Store will be opened in Turkey, which is something that Apple has been considering for some time now, the prices will drop incredibly and more people will be able to buy Apple products. You cannot imagine how many people are buying iPhones from the USA every time when a new generation is released.

I hope these clarified some things.
post #49 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliy155 View Post

Let me clarify some things. FATIH Project, the project that has ALREADY given some tablets to some students as prototypes, is tried to be nationwide now in Turkey. Now, our government wants to change their choice with iPads. I found it very sensible as the tablets that were given were not that good. I hope this will work because I am also a high school student.

For the "second-class citizens" thing; yes, we are definitely are annoyed with the idea of waiting 2-3 months more than the other countries. Moreover, all the Apple devices are x2-x3 more expensive than the other countries (even more from KSA)! If an Apple Store will be opened in Turkey, which is something that Apple has been considering for some time now, the prices will drop incredibly and more people will be able to buy Apple products. You cannot imagine how many people are buying iPhones from the USA every time when a new generation is released.

I hope these clarified some things.

 

Can you post any links that describe the government's desire to change to iPads?

 

 

I did some surfing and it appears that there are some Android tablets already distributed as part of the Faith Project:

 

 

http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=270656

 

http://fatihproject.com

 

 

And, it appears that Microsoft is active as well...  Though this article says that "vendor lock-in" may be a major consideration:

 

http://www.muktware.com/2318/turkish-fatih-project-open-source-vs-vendor-lock


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 2/2/13 at 2:39pm
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post #50 of 82

That's a couple of good articles Dick. Thanks for taking the time to do the research for us.

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post #51 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Apple will have little chance of winning this contract. It will go to the highest bidder and that will be Microsoft. Microsoft has never been shy about spending money and this will be an excellent project to get those ZunePads some quick market share. All Apple wants to do is accumulate reserve cash as a safety net for when all carrier subsidies disappear. Microsoft doesn't need a safety net because Windows OS and Microsoft Office will never go away. A Microsoft tablet venture will only add to sales of both.
Apple has the best chance out of everyone seeing the the country leaders came to our headquarters in Cupertino. Who said they didn't want iPads. Seeing that Apple is the company that makes iPads, I guess they'll be going with Apple
post #52 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAllister View Post


Apple has the best chance out of everyone seeing the the country leaders came to our headquarters in Cupertino. 

 

That photo is of Apple execs who just flew to Turkey to meet with President Gül.

 

(He did come over last Spring to Silicon Valley, where he met with Apple and Google and Microsoft and Facebook execs.)

post #53 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAllister View Post


Apple has the best chance out of everyone seeing the the country leaders came to our headquarters in Cupertino. 

 

That photo is of Apple execs who just flew to Turkey to meet with President Gül.

 

(He did come over last Spring to Silicon Valley, where he met with Apple and Google and Microsoft and Facebook execs.)

 

It appears that the Prime Minister of Turkey is the one who brought the Faith Project to life and promoted "open source" and Android tablets.  IDK anything about the Turkish government and the relationship between the President and the Prime Minister.

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post #54 of 82

I do not believe in such deals (whatever the country). Procurement people only know about cost, and do not care about any other characteristic (except size, may be (this is the only thing they can measure and understand). Edit : + keyboard layout, of course ....


Edited by umrk_lab - 2/3/13 at 4:41am
post #55 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post

I do not believe in such deals (whatever the country). Procurement people only know about cost, and do not care about any other characteristic (except size, may be (this is the only thing they can measure and understand). Edit : + keyboard layout, of course ....

 

I disagree!  It depends on how the requestor defines the need...   It can be very general -- in which case  "Procurement" does its job and looks for a solution that meets the lowest cost criterion.  

 

However, The request can be very specific -- designating a particular make, model, support services, company track record, etc... going as far as specifying a vendor as sole source (sometimes bypassing the bid process).

 

For example, the Turkey requestor could specify things like:

  • iPad 4 32 GB or better iOS Tablet
  • iTunes U
  • AirPlay to AppleTV capability
  • self-contained (off-line) WP, SS and DB apps
  • 48 hour repair / replacement service for 10% of the units

Edited by Dick Applebaum - 2/3/13 at 9:30am
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post #56 of 82
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Originally Posted by konqerror View Post

You mean EU? Turkey has been NATO since 1952.

Please, slow down. Judging from the level of prejudice and misinformation in this discussion, you risk to burn out someone's brain with too much information.
post #57 of 82
Turkey is a manufacturing country, so I guess they are also trying to move some Apple factory there. Labour cost is low, and Turkey is strategically positioned between Europe and Middle East, two important markets for Apple. Logistic costs could be interesting.
Edited by ptram - 2/3/13 at 9:38am
post #58 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

I disagree!  It depends on the requestor defines the need...   It can be very general -- in which case  "Procurement" does its job and looks for a solution that meets the lowest cost criterion.  

 

<...>

 

 

You were the one to post a link saying :

 

"Turkey is one of the champions of Free software with its own GNU/Linux based operating system Pardus. Using GNU/Linux and other open source technologies helps governments and agencies cut cost and maintain control over the quality of products, something proprietary technologies such as Microsoft Windows or Apple's iOS can never give."

 

NB : I personnally believe this open source argument is fallacious, I am not posting this to draw the discussion on this.

 

 

There are billions of reasons for which a government may believe it is smart to use "Free Software". After all this is just software, it should be free , uh ? /s

post #59 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

I disagree!  It depends on the requestor defines the need...   It can be very general -- in which case  "Procurement" does its job and looks for a solution that meets the lowest cost criterion.  

 

<...>

 

 

You were the one to post a link saying :

 

"Turkey is one of the champions of Free software with its own GNU/Linux based operating system Pardus. Using GNU/Linux and other open source technologies helps governments and agencies cut cost and maintain control over the quality of products, something proprietary technologies such as Microsoft Windows or Apple's iOS can never give."

 

NB : I personnally believe this open source argument is fallacious, I am not posting this to draw the discussion on this.

 

 

There are billions of reasons for which a government may believe it is smart to use "Free Software". After all this is just software, it should be free , uh ? /s

 

AFAICT, the original plan promoted by the Prime Minister was for "open source" and Android.  Others have posted that the original plan is/was not successful, and that Turkey now wants to buy iPads... Hence the meeting referred to in this article.  This involves the President of Turkey.  IDK, if the Turkish  office of the Presidency is ceremonial or if he wields political power.

 

i am trying to determine if there is potential for Apple to win this "bid" with iPads and the relatively "closed" iOS platform....  My post was exploring some ways that might be used to win the "bid".

 

A good sales organization with a superior solution, will help the customer specify the requirements of a RFQ.  It's done all the time!

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post #60 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post

 

There are billions of reasons for which a government may believe it is smart to use "Free Software". After all this is just software, it should be free , uh ? /s

It wouldn't necessarily need to be free. It would need to be adaptable enough for the Turkish educational leaders or authorities to customize the software for their own unique needs. Turkish education goals may not match those in the US where Apple has generally concentrated their educational software and books effort. I can certainly understand the Faith Project argument for involving local schools and their students in designing and integrating their own software solutions to address unique needs. iOS would not be as adaptable as Android for that, as I'm certain you would agree.

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post #61 of 82

In a prior post, I mentioned that a vendor will often assist a potential customer write the bid specs -- which usually starts with an RFQ (Request For Quotation).  If the vendor has convinced the customer that it has what the customer wants, the RFQ can be written in such a way as to preclude unwanted bidders (competition).   While I haven't seen the "tender" mentioned below -- it was obviously written to [try to] prevent Apple from bidding the iPad with a 9.7 inch display.

 

Quote:

General Mobile has won the tender for the pilot phase of the Movement to Increase Opportunities and Technology (FATİH) project, which will enable the test trial of tablet PCs in 52 schools this February.

 

General Mobile and Samsung were the two bidders for the tender, which called for devices under the category of 8.9-9.5 inch tablets. General Mobile won the tender with their offer of TL 599 for each device and will hand over 4,000 of before February 6th.

 

http://fatihproject.com/?p=27

 

So, I did some surfing and found the specs of the General Mobile Tablet:

 

http://www.generalmobile.com/Product/e-tablet

 

 

A pretty ordinary set of specs...  I could find no mention of pricing!

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post #62 of 82
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It wouldn't necessarily need to be free. It would need to be adaptable enough for the Turkish educational leaders or authorities to customize the software for their own unique needs. Turkish education goals may not match those in the US where Apple has generally concentrated their educational software and books effort. I can certainly understand the Faith Project argument for involving local schools and their students in designing and integrating their own software solutions to address unique needs. iOS would not be as adaptable as Android for that, as I'm certain you would agree.

 

Nothing prevents an individual or an organization to develop an App (or an iBook) on iOS platform, and decide it is free ...

 

I am not an expert of that Faith project, and it seems difficult to evaluate, because we have contradictory messages about it (what it was, what it is going to be ... (possibly ...)). Beyond this particular project, my point was that although indeed procurement should be the more rational thing, it is frequently not, especially when it comes to public projects, subject to all kind of political interferences.

 

Public projects (and even Corporate projects) are such that the ones who take the purchasing decisions (the "prescribers"), are not the users. So, even if they claim they listen to their point of view, they frequently do not. 

 

Of course Mr Couch is doing his job in this matter, I wish him good luck, but I do not think Apple has a great future in that sort of projects ....

 

Incidentally, this reminds me a quote from an high tech company, saying : we have two types of prospects, some are only interested in the cost, and we do not make too many efforts for them. Others (who also look at the cost, of course) also discuss about the product and what they expect from it. We appreciate those customers, they are the ones who enable us to progress ...


Edited by umrk_lab - 2/3/13 at 3:04pm
post #63 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It wouldn't necessarily need to be free. It would need to be adaptable enough for the Turkish educational leaders or authorities to customize the software for their own unique needs. Turkish education goals may not match those in the US where Apple has generally concentrated their educational software and books effort. I can certainly understand the Faith Project argument for involving local schools and their students in designing and integrating their own software solutions to address unique needs. iOS would not be as adaptable as Android for that, as I'm certain you would agree.

 

Nothing prevents an individual or an organization to develop an App (or an iBook) on iOS platform, and decide it is free ...

 

I am not an expert of that Faith project, and it seems difficult to evaluate, because we have contradictory messages about it (what it was, what it is going to be ... (possibly ...)). Beyond this particular project, my point was that although indeed procurement should be the more rational thing, it is frequently not, especially when it comes to public projects, subject to all kind of political interferences.

 

Public projects (and even Corporate projects) are such that the ones who take the purchasing decisions (the "prescribers"), are not the users. So, even if they claim they listen to their point of view, they frequently do not. 

 

Of course Mr Couch is doing his job in this matter, I wish him good luck, but I do not think Apple has a great future in that sort of projects ....

 

Incidentally, this reminds me a quote from an high tech company, saying : we have two types of prospects, some are only interested in the cost, and we do not make too many efforts for them. Others (who also look at the cost, of course) also discuss about the product and what they expect from it. We appreciate those customers, they are the ones who enable us to progress ...

 

I agree that Apple has advantages in creating eBooks -- and could negotiate bulk iOS Developer licenses... So that would be a non-issue.  The iOS ecosystem for iTunes U and Podcasts are unmatched by other vendors.

 

Apple does have a history of "salting" education projects dating back to at least 1980 -- donating 7 Apple ][s to Saratoga [CA] High School to set up a classroom lab.

 

AIR, NeXT and Apple did a lot of collaboration with Carnegie-Mellon, Stanford...

 

Because of his background, I believe that Tim Cook is more in concert with the needs and workings of large organizations, enterprise, education, etc. than Steve Jobs.

 

I see this as a great opportunity for Apple!

 

As to your last paragraph... To a creative sales organization there are ways to influence prospects so that your products are the lowest cost [only] solution... That's called marketing!


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 2/3/13 at 3:25pm
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post #64 of 82
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Originally Posted by konqerror View Post


I think you misunderstand, Apple accidentally swapped the position of two keys on the Turkish F keyboard from where they're supposed to be. It's a bug.


I think it was deliberate. When Turkey asked for a remedy, Apple said, "Sure, we'll fix it for $4.5B."

post #65 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

<..>

 

Apple does have a history of "salting" education projects dating back to at least 1980 -- donating 7 Apple ][s to Saratoga [CA] High School to set up a classroom lab.

 

AIR, NeXT and Apple did a lot of collaboration with Carnegie-Mellon, Stanford...

 

Because of his background, I believe that Tim Cook is more in concert with the needs and workings of large organizations, enterprise, education, etc. than Steve Jobs.

 

<..>

 

 

True, I know. But most education institutions do not have budgets comparable to the ones you mention, you know .. (which do not prevent them from purchasing a few Macs, but only in cases where this decision is taken (mostly at a very local level) by the real users, and not by clerical guys in purchasing departments, who buy computers as they would buy paper stock, pencils ...

 

Anyway we have a clear indication that the Turkish authorities discuss technical issue with Apple : that keyboard ... This is  a very positive indication, in that respect, I admit !


Edited by umrk_lab - 2/4/13 at 12:47am
post #66 of 82

F-A-T-I-H. FATIH.

 

Not "faith"

post #67 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

In a prior post, I mentioned that a vendor will often assist a potential customer write the bid specs -- which usually starts with an RFQ (Request For Quotation).  If the vendor has convinced the customer that it has what the customer wants, the RFQ can be written in such a way as to preclude unwanted bidders (competition).   While I haven't seen the "tender" mentioned below -- it was obviously written to [try to] prevent Apple from bidding the iPad with a 9.7 inch display.

 

Quote:

General Mobile has won the tender for the pilot phase of the Movement to Increase Opportunities and Technology (FATİH) project, which will enable the test trial of tablet PCs in 52 schools this February.

 

General Mobile and Samsung were the two bidders for the tender, which called for devices under the category of 8.9-9.5 inch tablets. General Mobile won the tender with their offer of TL 599 for each device and will hand over 4,000 of before February 6th.

 

http://fatihproject.com/?p=27

 

So, I did some surfing and found the specs of the General Mobile Tablet:

 

http://www.generalmobile.com/Product/e-tablet

 

 

A pretty ordinary set of specs...  I could find no mention of pricing!

 

I am quoting my own post to add some clarifications.

 

 

Quote:
General Mobile and Samsung were the two bidders for the tender, which called for devices under the category of 8.9-9.5 inch tablets. General Mobile won the tender with their offer of TL 599 for each device and will hand over 4,000 of before February 6th.

 

The TL 599 is the price of the tablet in Turkish Lira... About USD $.57 in March of 2012 (when the contract was awarded).

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=turkish+currency&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

 

So each tablet was purchased for ~= USD $340.  So, the pilot project was for 4,000 tablets @ USD $340 == $1,360,000.

 

 

Edit:  Just as a matter of comparison, here's the BOM+Mfg Cost breakdown of the iPad 3 from March 2012:

 

 

It shows the iPad 3 32GB Wifi at $333.

 

Also, The General Mobile spec shows an external SD card up to 32 GB for storage.  It is unclear  if this is included (or not) and what size.

 

If 16 GB was included, then the iPad 2 16 GB WiFi at $245 BOM+Mfg would apply.


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 2/4/13 at 10:05am
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post #68 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

In a prior post, I mentioned that a vendor will often assist a potential customer write the bid specs -- which usually starts with an RFQ (Request For Quotation).  If the vendor has convinced the customer that it has what the customer wants, the RFQ can be written in such a way as to preclude unwanted bidders (competition).   While I haven't seen the "tender" mentioned below -- it was obviously written to [try to] prevent Apple from bidding the iPad with a 9.7 inch display.


http://fatihproject.com/?p=27

So, I did some surfing and found the specs of the General Mobile Tablet:



http://www.generalmobile.com/Product/e-tablet


A pretty ordinary set of specs...  I could find no mention of pricing!



careful that you could give some ideas to lawyers : bid specs are supposed to let competition occur, but not the opposite ....

the very fact that, as you seem to suggest, it would possible to disguise a predetermined choice into a victory as part of a fair competition battle makes me dubious about the supposedly scientific nature of procurement decisions ...
Edited by umrk_lab - 2/4/13 at 6:53am
post #69 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by PersonMan View Post

F-A-T-I-H. FATIH.

 

Not "faith"

 

Sorry... 73-year-old eyes :(

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post #70 of 82
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Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post


careful that you could give some ideas to lawyers : bid specs are supposed to let competition occur, but not the opposite ....

the fact that, as you suggest, it is possible to disguise a predetermined choice into a victory as part as a fair competition battle makes me dubious about the supposedly scientific nature of procurement decisions ...

It's done all the time. I've received lots of bid requests where it's obvious one particular favored bidder assisted in in writing the bid specs. 

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post #71 of 82
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It's done all the time. I've received lots of bid requests where it's obvious one particular favored bidder assisted in in writing the bid specs. 


I know, but this is the sort of thing you always think about, but never publicly admit .... (you would not, if you were involved ...).
post #72 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Sorry... 73-year-old eyes :(


Then what are other people's excuses, especially those who have so much to say about it.

post #73 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


Then what are other people's excuses, especially those who have so much to say about it.


I was acting in good FAITH .....
post #74 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


Then what are other people's excuses, especially those who have so much to say about it.

Heck I'm just following Dick's lead. He's usually right.

 

Thanks to PersonMan for correcting everyone's misreading. 

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post #75 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post

careful that you could give some ideas to lawyers : bid specs are supposed to let competition occur, but not the opposite ....

the very fact that, as you seem to suggest, it would possible to disguise a predetermined choice into a victory as part as a fair competition battle makes me dubious about the supposedly scientific nature of procurement decisions ...

 

I see it differently.   Bid specs are supposed to (in order of priority):

  1. provide the requester the products and services he needs
  2. assure that those products and services can be provided by the provider (bid winner)
  3. meet or exceed the cost requirements (competitive bidding when necessary)

 

Turkey could have spec'd the bids for "electronic tablets" and been inundated with bids from 20 or 30 companies.  Each of these bids would need to be processed and each bidder would need to be evaluated (sometimes requiring an on-site visit to their facilities, financial analysis, etc.) to assure that they could perform (deliver the products and services).  The bid process, itself, can be very costly,

 

However, various vendors can help the requester narrow the bidding by providing addition specs.  Actually, this can improve the bid process and reduce costs.

 

This need not be illegal or anti-competitive -- rather getting the requester what he wants at the best price.

 

 

For example, you could spec your assistant to go out and buy the cheapest tablet (no specs) and he could meet your specs by buying a totally unusable <$100 tablet -- wasting time, money and doing you a total disservice.

 

If your assistant came to me, I would ask him things like do you want to use it:

  • to read books
  • to watch movies
  • to surf the web over the cellular network (and which cellular network)
  • ...

 

What I, the vendor, am doing is helping the requester understand the features available and to write the specs to better meet his needs.

 

Another example...  You are the US Army and you want to buy 50,000 Tanks over 4 years -- along with 4x replacement parts.   You could release an RFQ with no specs and everybody from Tesla to the Russians could respond...

 

Or you could limit the bidding to known providers like FMC Corp., Ford, etc. and assure you get what you want. 

 

A potential provider, like FMC, would be doing a disservice to his company and his country if he did not try to assure the Army got what they needed at the best price.  FMC can best assist, by helping the Army write the specs...  Maybe even sole-sourcing FMC as the provider, if justified!

 

That's the way it is supposed to work!

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post #76 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by umrk_lab View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It's done all the time. I've received lots of bid requests where it's obvious one particular favored bidder assisted in in writing the bid specs. 


I know, but this is the sort of thing you always think about, but never publicly admit .... (you would not, if you were involved ...).

 

Bid Specs are not perfect -- especially if the time required to prepare the specs is longer than technology advances.

 

In many cases you can respond to a bid with products or services that exceed the specs and/or request an exception.  Today Apple could bid the iPad Mini, iPad 2 or iPad 4.

 

It's all done to make the process work!   That's apparently what is happening with the Turkish project.

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post #77 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

I see it differently.   Bid specs are supposed to (in order of priority):

  1. provide the requester the products and services he needs
  2. assure that those products and services can be provided by the provider (bid winner)
  3. meet or exceed the cost requirements (competitive bidding when necessary)

 

 

...That's the way it is supposed to work!

Of course, but I know you're not so naive as to think that's the way it always works. Not at all saying that's what occurred in this case. You know more of the details of this bid than any of the rest of us. Nice research by the way.

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post #78 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

I see it differently.   Bid specs are supposed to (in order of priority):

  1. provide the requester the products and services he needs
  2. assure that those products and services can be provided by the provider (bid winner)
  3. meet or exceed the cost requirements (competitive bidding when necessary)

 

 

...That's the way it is supposed to work!

Of course, but I know you're not so naive as to think that's the way it always works. Not at all saying that's what occurred in this case. You know more of the details of this bid than any of the rest of us. Nice research by the way.

 

Most enterprise and governments do procurement through the office of a "purchasing agent" (whatever the name).  Because this office can often be exposed to questionable or illegal influences -- it is usual well regulated and monitored for compliance.

 

When a situation involves the initial or "pilot" use of products or services, the requestor may know what he wants -- but may not know all the potential solutions and providers of those solutions.

 

In this case, the requestor will document his needs, and the entity will issue an RFP (Request For Proposal) to all comers (or selected potential suppliers).  This is the best opportunity for the vendors to provide their solutions, define the necessary specifications... and hopefully get their solution written into the specs.

 

Often, the requester can look around and see what others are doing * and shorten or bypass the RFP process.  This may include inviting salesmen from known suppliers to discuss the requester needs and outline their solution on an informal basis.

 

*  Fraser SpeIrs in Scotland  http://fraserspeirs.com

 

Once the [formal and/or informal] fact-gathering has been completed, the next step is usually an RFQ for what ever the requester has determined that best meets his needs.

 

As the process is not done in a vacuum and, likely, has sought information from potential suppliers -- there is a strong likelihood that some supplier specs are written into the RFQ.

 

This does not mean that others cannot bid with a solution with specs that are "over and above" those outlined in the RFQ.

 

The RFP/RFQ process must be flexible enough to "get things done" yet rigorous enough to avoid fraud and abuse.

 

Unfortunately this is not always what happens.

 

Either the process is so rigid that you end up paying $100 for $10 Toilet Seats -- or so lax that undo influence is brought to purchase something that doesn't do the job.

 

From outward appearances, the Turkish project seems to be handled quite normally for a project of that size -- a pilot of 4,000 tablets for  project involving millions of units.

 

The pilot could give an advantage to the winner [of the pilot] or it could have just the opposite effect -- if the winner's solution is inadequate.

 

In any case, the pilot lays the groundwork for the entire project -- and you may see the entire project go through another, expedited, RFP/RFQ process from a position of better knowledge of:

  • what they need
  • what specs are required to meet the need
  • what's available
  • how much it should cost

 

Again, I see some things in the bid that raise an eyebrow -- but I expect to see that... and I don't think that it is, necessarily, nefarious... any more so that the Turkish Government meeting with Apple, Samsung, Microsoft...

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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -
"He who laughs, lasts!" - Mary Pettibone Poole -
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post #79 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Most enterprise and governments do procurement through the office of a "purchasing agent" (whatever the name).  Because this office can often be exposed to questionable or illegal influences -- it is usual well regulated and monitored for compliance.

When a situation involves the initial or "pilot" use of products or services, the requestor may know what he wants -- but may not know all the potential solutions and providers of those solutions.

In this case, the requestor will document his needs, and the entity will issue an RFP (Request For Proposal) to all comers (or selected potential suppliers).  This is the best opportunity for the vendors to provide their solutions, define the necessary specifications... and hopefully get their solution written into the specs.

Often, the requester can look around and see what others are doing * and shorten or bypass the RFP process.  This may include inviting salesmen from known suppliers to discuss the requester needs and outline their solution on an informal basis.

*  Fraser SpeIrs in Scotland  http://fraserspeirs.com

Once the [formal and/or informal] fact-gathering has been completed, the next step is usually an RFQ for what ever the requester has determined that best meets his needs.

As the process is not done in a vacuum and, likely, has sought information from potential suppliers -- there is a strong likelihood that some supplier specs are written into the RFQ.

This does not mean that others cannot bid with a solution with specs that are "over and above" those outlined in the RFQ.

The RFP/RFQ process must be flexible enough to "get things done" yet rigorous enough to avoid fraud and abuse.

Unfortunately this is not always what happens.

Either the process is so rigid that you end up paying $100 for $10 Toilet Seats -- or so lax that undo influence is brought to purchase something that doesn't do the job.

From outward appearances, the Turkish project seems to be handled quite normally for a project of that size -- a pilot of 4,000 tablets for  project involving millions of units.

The pilot could give an advantage to the winner [of the pilot] or it could have just the opposite effect -- if the winner's solution is inadequate.

In any case, the pilot lays the groundwork for the entire project -- and you may see the entire project go through another, expedited, RFP/RFQ process from a position of better knowledge of:
  • what they need
  • what specs are required to meet the need
  • what's available
  • how much it should cost

Again, I see some things in the bid that raise an eyebrow -- but I expect to see that... and I don't think that it is, necessarily, nefarious... any more so that the Turkish Government meeting with Apple, Samsung, Microsoft...



This is fine, and you are very pedagogic. Again, I know nothing about this Turkish project, and I do not project preconceived ideas about it.

But, if you let me continue on this interesting discussion, assuming there would be no bias of any kind in an hypothetic RFP/RFQ process, that would mean the decision would be made on "spec sheet" battle.

Discussion in this forum frequently opposes Apple lovers, who judge on User experience, to Apple haters, who prefer spec sheet arguments. This is a problem, because spec sheets are frequently biased, and also User experience is something which is very difficult to quantify, especially in RFP/RFQ drafting.

this makes me conclude that it will always be difficult for Apple to win in thee, although I know you can mention numerous exceptions (but mostly in the US, I believe).

Consumer markets, where each consumer takes his individual decision alone (although he ca be influenced, of course), are totaly different from corporate or public markets, where the RFP/RFQ process inherently ignores user experience.
post #80 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Most enterprise and governments do procurement through the office of a "purchasing agent" (whatever the name).  Because this office can often be exposed to questionable or illegal influences -- it is usual well regulated and monitored for compliance.

When a situation involves the initial or "pilot" use of products or services, the requestor may know what he wants -- but may not know all the potential solutions and providers of those solutions.

In this case, the requestor will document his needs, and the entity will issue an RFP (Request For Proposal) to all comers (or selected potential suppliers).  This is the best opportunity for the vendors to provide their solutions, define the necessary specifications... and hopefully get their solution written into the specs.

Often, the requester can look around and see what others are doing * and shorten or bypass the RFP process.  This may include inviting salesmen from known suppliers to discuss the requester needs and outline their solution on an informal basis.

*  Fraser SpeIrs in Scotland  http://fraserspeirs.com

Once the [formal and/or informal] fact-gathering has been completed, the next step is usually an RFQ for what ever the requester has determined that best meets his needs.

As the process is not done in a vacuum and, likely, has sought information from potential suppliers -- there is a strong likelihood that some supplier specs are written into the RFQ.

This does not mean that others cannot bid with a solution with specs that are "over and above" those outlined in the RFQ.

The RFP/RFQ process must be flexible enough to "get things done" yet rigorous enough to avoid fraud and abuse.

Unfortunately this is not always what happens.

Either the process is so rigid that you end up paying $100 for $10 Toilet Seats -- or so lax that undo influence is brought to purchase something that doesn't do the job.

From outward appearances, the Turkish project seems to be handled quite normally for a project of that size -- a pilot of 4,000 tablets for  project involving millions of units.

The pilot could give an advantage to the winner [of the pilot] or it could have just the opposite effect -- if the winner's solution is inadequate.

In any case, the pilot lays the groundwork for the entire project -- and you may see the entire project go through another, expedited, RFP/RFQ process from a position of better knowledge of:
  • what they need
  • what specs are required to meet the need
  • what's available
  • how much it should cost

Again, I see some things in the bid that raise an eyebrow -- but I expect to see that... and I don't think that it is, necessarily, nefarious... any more so that the Turkish Government meeting with Apple, Samsung, Microsoft...



This is fine, and you are very pedagogic. Again, I know nothing about this Turkish project, and I do not project preconceived ideas about it.

But, if you let me continue on this interesting discussion, assuming there would be no bias of any kind in an hypothetic RFP/RFQ process, that would mean the decision would be made on "spec sheet" battle.

Discussion in this forum frequently opposes Apple lovers, who judge on User experience, to Apple haters, who prefer spec sheet arguments. This is a problem, because spec sheets are frequently biased, and also User experience is something which is very difficult to quantify, especially in RFP/RFQ drafting.

this makes me conclude that it will always be difficult for Apple to win in thee, although I know you can mention numerous exceptions (but mostly in the US, I believe).

Consumer markets, where each consumer takes his individual decision alone (although he ca be influenced, of course), are totaly different from corporate or public markets, where the RFP/RFQ process inherently ignores user experience.
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