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Review roundup: Microsoft's Surface Pro is about compromises - Page 2

post #41 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

 

You mean the tech isn't there at a price point Apple thinks people will be willing to pay? Clearly, Apple could put a Retina Display in the Mini. It just couldn't do it at a price point it wanted to do so. 

 

Its not only price point, its yield, a company producing 1Million devices can afford to go there but that is nowhere near enough for an ipad, not even an order of magnitude near enough.

post #42 of 91
Battery life on SP is a killer, in my opinion, for anyone who needs to use a tablet. It's not a "fixed-laptop" as so many are, so that close-by power supply is not as readily available as for a "fixed-laptop".

As for Mossberg's arguments,

A- Non-touch programs don't run well on the touch interface. Okaaaaay. Predictable, my dear. I remember quite a few apps vetted by Apple that utterly sucked due to being heavy-handedly translated from non-touch to touch, especially games. EA, Ubisoft, Square Enix, you hear me?
7,99$ ones, no less. And these were supposed to be "touch-enabled". If Apple could not enforce that all apps they vetted really were top-notch (to be reaaaaaally nice in the description), probably it's unfair to take the least likely gripe as an argument, that customers might be unhappy that apps that were never designed for that platform, nor updated for it, would not work as well as they do on the platform they were designed for?
Argument invalid, imho.

B- Surface Pro is a study in compromises. So's the iPad. The problem is not "does it compromise", it is "does it compromise well". In that respect,it seems it doesn't, but if it sells millions I'll eat my words...

@Ikrupp Why the random French words? It doesn't really support your argument to insert random words, y'know.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #43 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

That's not a compromise; the tech isn't there yet.

Not true. Nexus 7 has a much better screen than iPad Mini. 

 

Mini is compromised for purely financial reasons. I don't care, I'll get iPad Mini Retina for my girlfriend when it comes out ^^'

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #44 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

“If you see a stylus, they blew it.” - Steve Jobs
LOL I love this line. I believe Samsung recently doubled down on the stylus by purchasing Wacom stock.
post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Mini is compromised for purely financial reasons. 

Source?

post #46 of 91

The whole endeavour to evolve a PC into a tablet is flawed, based on the fact its trying to appease users who want a PC but in a tablet form. The ecosystems are just miles apart and won't work as a marriage. Only a major mind shift by users will see a truly productive tablet evolve. Users have to be drawn into a whole new world of computing, not a renovated old one. Apple have done a good job coaxing its users into a new ecosystem, but its only part the way there. Microsoft needs to do the same, and forget about trying to appease its flock. A totally new way of thinking has to exist before we can move to the next level of tablet computing. You just can't bring old world and new world together and make it work. The next generation has to come with absolutely no compromises.

post #47 of 91

When the Surface was first announced last year and Microsoft showed off the touch covers all these Windows fanboys said "see Apple, that's how you do a Smart Cover".  I remember at the time thinking it seemed gimmicky and that Apple probably had prototyped something similar but decided against it because of poor user experience (and also because they're not trying to converge a laptop and tablet into one device).

 

Well I just watched the Verge's Surface Pro video review and the called the touch cover a gimmick.  lol.gif

 

Has anyone ever seen the Surface (or any other Windows convertible) being used in portrait mode?  I read on my iPad all the time and usually when I do it's in portrait mode.  Seems to me the surface would suck for reading books or magazines.    I wonder what note taking is like as that too I assume would be done more often in portrait mode.  It's hard to know because you never see the device shown that way.  The UI just doesn't seem suited for portrait mode use.

 

Microsoft would have been better off building a nice thin and light laptop that had touch screen/pen digitizer capabilities than a laptop/tablet hybrid. I have yet to see a review that really praises the Surface as a tablet.  And using it on your lap seems like it doesn't work very well.

post #48 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Maybe they shouldn't be trying to pass off a laptop as a tablet, then.

 

Their problem is that it doesn't pass as a decent laptop, either, it's the worst of all possible compromises.

 

As predicted, the Surface Pro (like the RT before it) is DOA because it does nothing well.

 

This is what happens when products are designed in the executive suites, based on "market research" and an idée fixe.


Edited by anonymouse - 2/6/13 at 5:47am
post #49 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Their problem is that it doesn't pass as a decent laptop, either, it's the worst of all possible compromises.

 

As predicted, the Surface Pro (like the RT before it) is DOA because it does nothing well.

Yep.  And what's laughable is Microsoft saying you need to compare the Surface to a Macboom Air + iPad to get a fair comparison.  Really?  I'd love to know how many people will use the Surface as a tablet.  It's too thick and heavy and battery life sucks.  Plus you never see it in portrait orientation without the keyboard/cover.  Which leads me to believe it sucks being used that way or being used without the keyboard cover.

 

This is what I love about Apple.  They get that design involves making compromises, but they're good at making the right ones.  Microsoft tried to design a device that was the best of everything but it ended up being the best at nothing.

post #50 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Yep.  And what's laughable is Microsoft saying you need to compare the Surface to a Macboom Air + iPad to get a fair comparison.  Really?  I'd love to know how many people will use the Surface as a tablet.  It's too thick and heavy and battery life sucks.  Plus you never see it in portrait orientation without the keyboard/cover.  Which leads me to believe it sucks being used that way or being used without the keyboard cover.

This is what I love about Apple.  They get that design involves making compromises, but they're good at making the right ones.  Microsoft tried to design a device that was the best of everything but it ended up being the best at nothing.

The comparison is really simple:

Surface RT compares to the iPad

Surface Pro compares to the MBA (since every advertisement is bragging more about the keyboard than the device itself, one assumes that they're suggesting that the keyboard is largely necessary).

The Pro is more expansive than a comparably equipped MBA - and has significant limitations. The RT is comparable in price to the iPad but has much poorer app support.
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post #51 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

Hi Tim,

 

I'm wondering though, wouldn't you rather have something like a PC version of the MacBook Air for about the same price as the Surface Pro? With a proper laptop, you have an experience that is designed for keeping your hands on the keyboard, using the touch-pad, etc. With the Surface Pro, you have to switch between touch, stylus and optionally track-pad, and UIs that are designed for a mouse and for touch. It seems like a jumble. Plus, most portables in the MacBook Air category almost double the battery life of the Surface Pro. There's also very little disk space left after the OS has taken it's fill. And there's less expandability and connectivity than you get with a real laptop.
 

As an example the Toshiba Portege:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2410357,00.asp

Costs less than the Surface Pro, and gives you 8 hours battery life.

 

Yes considered a MacBook Air, I usually buy Macs firstly because I like them and because you then have the options of both OS's. But I have 2 issues with the Air, it doesn't have a touch screen and you can't take off the keyboard.

 

For the web I much prefer using my iPad on the sofa over a laptop, but it's an annoying compromise as it doesn't do everything. If I want to type anything over a couple of lines it's not great, and if I want to program or edit an image I need to go back to a laptop. I don't want 2 devices though, it's like having an iPod and a phone. they need to be one device.

 

Yes the battery life is a bit disappointing, and the space is small (although can be expanded). But is it better in my scenario then a laptop that I find clunky or an iPad that doesn't do what I want.

post #52 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

Yes considered a MacBook Air, I usually buy Macs firstly because I like them and because you then have the options of both OS's. But I have 2 issues with the Air, it doesn't have a touch screen and you can't take off the keyboard.

For the web I much prefer using my iPad on the sofa over a laptop, but it's an annoying compromise as it doesn't do everything. If I want to type anything over a couple of lines it's not great, and if I want to program or edit an image I need to go back to a laptop. I don't want 2 devices though, it's like having an iPod and a phone. they need to be one device.

Yes the battery life is a bit disappointing, and the space is small (although can be expanded). But is it better in my scenario then a laptop that I find clunky or an iPad that doesn't do what I want.

Then buy one. No one is suggesting that either the MBA or iPad or Surface RT or Surface Pro is right for everyone. People should choose the product that best meets their needs.

I suspect, however, that people who have your particular set of needs are a tiny minority.
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post #53 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

 

Yes considered a MacBook Air, I usually buy Macs firstly because I like them and because you then have the options of both OS's. But I have 2 issues with the Air, it doesn't have a touch screen and you can't take off the keyboard.

 

For the web I much prefer using my iPad on the sofa over a laptop, but it's an annoying compromise as it doesn't do everything. If I want to type anything over a couple of lines it's not great, and if I want to program or edit an image I need to go back to a laptop. I don't want 2 devices though, it's like having an iPod and a phone. they need to be one device.

 

Yes the battery life is a bit disappointing, and the space is small (although can be expanded). But is it better in my scenario then a laptop that I find clunky or an iPad that doesn't do what I want.

 

Unfortunately for you, your "scenario" won't live up to the promise. Unfortunately for Microsoft, you are the market research they used to design this device.

post #54 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Then buy one. No one is suggesting that either the MBA or iPad or Surface RT or Surface Pro is right for everyone.

 

I am. Well, not really suggesting, stating would be the better word. The Surface Pro is the wrong device for everyone, in all cases. The Surface RT is simply the wrong device. If you need a tablet and a laptop, the only way you're going to get the functionality of both is to buy both. Simply wanting a device that's the best of both worlds doesn't mean the Surface, Pro or RT, is such a device. As they say, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.


Edited by anonymouse - 2/6/13 at 8:22am
post #55 of 91

That's what you get by trying to be "everything at once." Funny that they used Lenka's song for their ad - a self-fulfilling prophecy... Yes, jack of all trades, master of Zune ;-) It's a study in how to burn thru $1B of an advertising budget with mediocre results.

post #56 of 91

This is just funny.. 4 hours of battery life is not that bad. It runs i5 CPU not Arm core like iPad..

Surface Pro has 10.81 x 6.81 x 0.53in

Macbook Air 11" has 11.8 x 7.56 x 0.68in

 

Mackbook Air 11" has 2 USB port + 1 tunder bolt. Surface Pro 1 USB + 1 display port + SD card. Port wise I don't think not much difference between 2 products to me. 1 USB for mouse(if you need one), Either you buy 64GB SD card or 64GB USB stick.. Now only difference is tunderbolt and displayport.

I rather have displayport to easier connect to either TV or monitor. Tunderbolt dongle is too expensive.

 

Also someone mention about buy Mmacbook Air and install windows OS? Do you know how much space on Macbook Air?

I just checked 11" air has either 64 or 128GB.. No SD card expansion.. If you buy 64GB version then both OS will took more then half of 64GB space..

I thought you guys complain about Surface Pro has too little space left for use.

At least Surface Pro has SD card expansion slot.. Another 64GB SD card should be solve your space issues.

Soon 128GB microSD card will lunch.

11" Air does not have one.. Very disappointing when it was released without SD card for 11".

 

You all wanted or not PC(include pad, laptop, desktop)already shifted to touch.

Check how many Macbook, iMac, Mac mini sold compare to iPad.

 

Current touch screen on laptop is not that great. it is good but not great. Soon you will see 13", 15" tablet with full OS running.

I hope next windows trim down some size and instant boot like windows RT does.

 

Also about 4G connection. RT has nVidia tegra 3. Which does not have included 4G stuff. The tegra 4 will solve that problem.

It maybe replace current Surface RT by end of this year.(which close to product life cycle to be 1 year)

 

Yeah.. Pen was around long time.. I saw some insurence guy carry bulky tablet PC that has pen.. Surface Pro should be good for sign contract and other thing.

 

At least MS has single UI for pad and PC. Apple has 2 different UI. Soon they will have to think about how to combine them as one and move to touch for everything. If Apple does not want to move this way then they will lose market share soon.

 

Oh.. One more thing about Surface PRO does not have Office.. Soon MS will start promotion to give out Office 365 1 year free.

Surface Pro 64GB($899) with Office 365($99) free is pretty good deal to me.

I think Office 365 is good choice if you have 4-5 computers for family.

 

Anyway I am more concern about MS release Surface PRO too close to next Intel Haswell CPU release date..(It should June 2013)

Current ivybridge CPU has 4 months to live.. Unless Intel give real good price to MS then price drop will soon to follow..

post #57 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by karas11 View Post

This is just funny.. 4 hours of battery life is not that bad. It runs i5 CPU not Arm core like iPad..
Surface Pro has 10.81 x 6.81 x 0.53in
Macbook Air 11" has 11.8 x 7.56 x 0.68in

Mackbook Air 11" has 2 USB port + 1 tunder bolt. Surface Pro 1 USB + 1 display port + SD card. Port wise I don't think not much difference between 2 products to me. 1 USB for mouse(if you need one), Either you buy 64GB SD card or 64GB USB stick.. Now only difference is tunderbolt and displayport.
I rather have displayport to easier connect to either TV or monitor. Tunderbolt dongle is too expensive.

Also someone mention about buy Mmacbook Air and install windows OS? Do you know how much space on Macbook Air?
I just checked 11" air has either 64 or 128GB.. No SD card expansion.. If you buy 64GB version then both OS will took more then half of 64GB space..
I thought you guys complain about Surface Pro has too little space left for use.
At least Surface Pro has SD card expansion slot.. Another 64GB SD card should be solve your space issues.
Soon 128GB microSD card will lunch.
11" Air does not have one.. Very disappointing when it was released without SD card for 11".

You all wanted or not PC(include pad, laptop, desktop)already shifted to touch.
Check how many Macbook, iMac, Mac mini sold compare to iPad.

Current touch screen on laptop is not that great. it is good but not great. Soon you will see 13", 15" tablet with full OS running.
I hope next windows trim down some size and instant boot like windows RT does.

Also about 4G connection. RT has nVidia tegra 3. Which does not have included 4G stuff. The tegra 4 will solve that problem.
It maybe replace current Surface RT by end of this year.(which close to product life cycle to be 1 year)

Yeah.. Pen was around long time.. I saw some insurence guy carry bulky tablet PC that has pen.. Surface Pro should be good for sign contract and other thing.

At least MS has single UI for pad and PC. Apple has 2 different UI. Soon they will have to think about how to combine them as one and move to touch for everything. If Apple does not want to move this way then they will lose market share soon.

Oh.. One more thing about Surface PRO does not have Office.. Soon MS will start promotion to give out Office 365 1 year free.
Surface Pro 64GB($899) with Office 365($99) free is pretty good deal to me.
I think Office 365 is good choice if you have 4-5 computers for family.

Anyway I am more concern about MS release Surface PRO too close to next Intel Haswell CPU release date..(It should June 2013)
Current ivybridge CPU has 4 months to live.. Unless Intel give real good price to MS then price drop will soon to follow..

Wow. You managed to cram a lot of errors into one post. Let's highlight a few of them:

- battery life. The MBA has 5-7 hours of battery life compared to 4 for the Surface.

- Storage space. While less than half of the space on a 64 GB Surface is available for use, somwhere around 75-80% is available on the MBA. OS X doesn't take anywhere near as much space, Apple doesn't stuff the system full of shovelware, and the backup is on the Internet rather than on the disk.

- SD cards have a massive disadvantage - reliability. Not only is the card unreliable, but the extra hardware in the system is a source for problems. But if you really insist on an SD card, you can buy a USB adapter for a few bucks - completely negating your advantage.

- The fact that you consider Thunderbolt to be too expensive is negated by the fact that the Surface Pro is more expensive than the MBA after you pay for the keyboard. Besides, if the cable bothers you so much, just use Airplay. You can buy an MBA with Apple TV for less than the cost of a Surface Pro with keyboard.

- You seem to be confused by the fact that tablets and laptops are not the same thing. That's understandable because Microsoft is apparently confused, as well. Apple has products for both markets without creating silly hybrids that do neither thing well.

- While it is correct to say that MS has a single UI to cover all platforms, it has not been established that this is the way to go. Apple has decided to go with GOOD UIs for both tablets and laptops rather than crappy blended UIs. If you doubt that, just read the reviews of WIndows 8. Hardly anyone is praising the new UI.
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post #58 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by karas11 View Post

At least MS has single UI for pad and PC. ...

 

You say that like it's a good thing. Although, in actuality, they really don't. What they do have is 2 UIs crammed together on 1 device.

 

Quote:
...  Apple has 2 different UI. Soon they will have to think about how to combine them as one and move to touch for everything. If Apple does not want to move this way then they will lose market share soon. ...

 

An interesting theory, but without any basis in evidence, not even enough to support an inference supporting your assertion. What evidence we do have is that devices that try to combine a traditional "desktop" interface with a touch interface fail miserably. There are a number of products that have tried this over the years, most of them based on Microsoft technology, and including Windows Mobile, and they have all been miserable failures. The Surface Pro looks very much like it will also be a miserable failure. Adding "touch" capabilities to traditional "desktop" interfaces has also been a practical failure. It continues to be a failure, so there a) really isn't any pressure on Apple to do this, and there won't be unless and until it isn't a failure, and b) there's no evidence that, for general use, this is even a useful paradigm.

 

Note: One should keep in mind that a laptop is already a "compromise device". So, creating a laptop tablet hybrid will necessarily compromise a) the tablet aspects of the device, and b) the already compromised desktop aspects.

post #59 of 91
I had high hopes for this. But it looks to be another Microsoft hardware flop like the Zune and the RT before it. Ballmer really needs to go already!
post #60 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Then buy one. No one is suggesting that either the MBA or iPad or Surface RT or Surface Pro is right for everyone. People should choose the product that best meets their needs.

I suspect, however, that people who have your particular set of needs are a tiny minority.

Exactly. People will vote with their checkbooks :-)

post #61 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Wow. You managed to cram a lot of errors into one post. Let's highlight a few of them:

- battery life. The MBA has 5-7 hours of battery life compared to 4 for the Surface.

- Storage space. While less than half of the space on a 64 GB Surface is available for use, somwhere around 75-80% is available on the MBA. OS X doesn't take anywhere near as much space, Apple doesn't stuff the system full of shovelware, and the backup is on the Internet rather than on the disk.

- SD cards have a massive disadvantage - reliability. Not only is the card unreliable, but the extra hardware in the system is a source for problems. But if you really insist on an SD card, you can buy a USB adapter for a few bucks - completely negating your advantage.

- The fact that you consider Thunderbolt to be too expensive is negated by the fact that the Surface Pro is more expensive than the MBA after you pay for the keyboard. Besides, if the cable bothers you so much, just use Airplay. You can buy an MBA with Apple TV for less than the cost of a Surface Pro with keyboard.

- You seem to be confused by the fact that tablets and laptops are not the same thing. That's understandable because Microsoft is apparently confused, as well. Apple has products for both markets without creating silly hybrids that do neither thing well.

- While it is correct to say that MS has a single UI to cover all platforms, it has not been established that this is the way to go. Apple has decided to go with GOOD UIs for both tablets and laptops rather than crappy blended UIs. If you doubt that, just read the reviews of WIndows 8. Hardly anyone is praising the new UI.

I said 4 hours is not bad. I did not said it is good or great.. I guess you don't understand what I said.

For me 4, 5, 7 hours of battery life does not make difference. Why? I don't use much PC any given time more than 3-4 hours stright.

 

Yeah... Air has keyboard. Surface Pro has touch screen.. I have 3 USB corded or wireless keyboards in my house. I don't have to buy Surface keyboard.

Unless I really want one. Lack of keyboard does not make any difference to me either.

 

Space also some one said they rather install windows OS on Air. I did not said Surface Pro has enoguh available space to use.

USB storgae, SD card or any other storage device has limit and problems. I never had any problem with SD card I bought. So is that mean SD card has no problem? No.. it depends what you experenice with.

 

Also what I mentioned stoage expantion with SD card is plus. Which 11" Air not have. That's all.

 

Tunderbolt cost more then any other external device current available. Even cable cost more.

Well unless you are early adapter, I never buy something when first release. I would wait until July(which is sales season) and buy with bundle discount.

 

Also I am not confuse what is what. It does not matter tablet, laptop whatever PC form factor, it depends on what you want. it just computer.

 

Windwows 8 is just lunched. That is the way it MS will roll with their OS UI. UI is also depends on what you expereince with. I have no problem using windows 8 UI. Some people adapt easier then others..

 

Anyway it all matters what you really want. You can buy muach cheaper laptop with windows. if you want OS X then buy Mac.

OSX, Windows, Linux, Chrom OS, etc.. Just a tool to me. How to use it, it just up to you.

post #62 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by karas11 View Post

... Also I am not confuse what is what. It does not matter tablet, laptop whatever PC form factor, it depends on what you want. it just computer. ...

 

Well, yeah, not if you don't care about how well it works, I guess.

post #63 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by karas11 View Post

At least MS has single UI for pad and PC. Apple has 2 different UI. Soon they will have to think about how to combine them as one and move to touch for everything. If Apple does not want to move this way then they will lose market share soon.

 

Wow, what a misunderstanding.  Last time I've check Microsoft had 2 different UI in Windows 8 - RT  and 4 distinct and incompatible runtime platform: Windows 8, Windows RT, Windows Phone 8 and Windows Phone 7.8.

 

Apple got 2 UI, one for desktop and one for mobile, and only one development platform. 

post #64 of 91

Microsoft's Surface Pro reminds me of Tom Waits' "Step Right Up".

post #65 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

 

You mean the tech isn't there at a price point Apple thinks people will be willing to pay? Clearly, Apple could put a Retina Display in the Mini. It just couldn't do it at a price point it wanted to do so. 

 

It's probably more about the battery in this case. The Mini has to provide all the functionality of the larger iPad in less space. While shaving the GPU saves power -- it's not enough when you lose a good 2x4" area. It's that retina display that added the most power consumption if everyone looks at the specs -- so it's stands to reason that the easiest compromise would be forgo the resolution until you can squeeze a more powerful battery in, or until high rez displays suck less power. Microsoft didn't want to compromise computing power because they wanted Windows 8 apps -- so they ended up with an overpriced netbook with a touchscreen display. Physics being what it is; 3.5hr battery life. Apple got a lot of critique for not having real multitasking with their first versions of iOS. Now we've got a kind of "suspended animation" for apps that quickly pop back to life. I'd like to be able to play iTunes while playing a bunch of games -- but for most tasks, I don't really miss or need multitasking -- as long as important messages are routed and tasks are acted on (like an alarm clock). So "managed" multitasking actually works out best for most users on a pad like device. A lower powered CPU/GPU on the Mac iOS does as much work for the user as a higher powered one on these Android/Microsoft devices. Apple noted that the purpose of the device was to be convenient, so it placed weight, power consumption and durability as priorities. When I interact with an iPhone -- it always responds, whereas a few "swipe to unlock" devices I deal with that are not Apple can take a few precious tens of seconds to respond. >> So yeah, it is clear to me that Apple made a LOT of compromises, but their decisions were much better for the user experience. A touch display that isn't accurate or durable is no good. A super portable device that is bulky or needs a recharge too soon is no good. I would have loved a micro USB storage device -- but everything is not perfect. MS should have differentiated their two RT offerings a lot more, and marketed them that way. The lighter one should have given up on Windows 8 or "laptop like" experience -- and the "Pro" should have given up trying to be an iPad, and been a "Windows experience in a pad like package" -- there are definitely some vertical markets in manufacturing, medicine and the like that WANT to port their Windows solutions to a pad. Microsoft would then come out with a "Pad version" of Microsoft Office -- much like Apple has done for their RT Surface. The RT Surface would free up about 16 Gigs of space and force native software and thus lose emulation and gain about 40% more battery life. Go with a managed multitasking model and save some more. Then they'd have something compelling versus the iPad -- physics being what it is, they cannot effectively do both right now. The constraint is the battery and it will be for some time.
post #66 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

Wow, what a misunderstanding.  Last time I've check Microsoft had 2 different UI in Windows 8 - RT  and 4 distinct and incompatible runtime platform: Windows 8, Windows RT, Windows Phone 8 and Windows Phone 7.8.

 

Apple got 2 UI, one for desktop and one for mobile, and only one development platform. 

 

Well close; Apple has iOS and MacOS platforms. You can't really run an iOS app on a Mac even in emulation (and I've looked for them).

A lot of Microsoft fans are even confused about the different platforms they have now. So they have 2.5 interfaces, 4 OS's and that means about 12 different ways to confuse and create a support nightmare. This is definitely not "keeping down costs" for their Vendors and Platform patrons.

If you are a large company that created a lot of custom solutions in Visual Basic, you are probably looking at; "Convert to something mobile, or run in emulation on a large system and port the 'view', or hold off a decision and run on a Win 8 compatible solution." Microsoft's virtual emulation efforts are top notch and they've bought a lot of companies to provide that -- but asking companies to shell out about $1000 for a 3 hour netbook doesn't look like a good "short term wait and see solution" -- they've given companies more reason to look at; "port to a mobile platform now rather than later."

post #67 of 91
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post
"And over and over again, these useful programs reminded me that they weren’t designed to work well on a new-wave computing device like the Surface Pro."

 

That's the wall that Microsoft keeps running into.  The fundamental problem that they can't solve.  The basic truth that prevents them from making even the slightest dent in the pad computing market.

 

They won't accept the fact that using a pad computer is a different user experience than using a desktop or laptop computer.  And that a pad computer requires a different user interface model than a legacy computer.  No, they keep trying to jam the square windows peg into the round mobile computing hole.  And they keep telling us it fits.  "No compromises," they all say.  But what they really mean is "Microsoft is not going to compromise.  We're sticking with the same old thing, even if it makes no sense to you, the user."

 

There can only a few reasons why Microsoft refuses to totally rewrite Windows and Office to be truly touch-enabled:

 

1. Because they can't, or 

2. Because they won't, or

3. Both of the above.

 

I think it's 3.  But let's look at 1 and 2 a little more closely:

 

1. Because they can't (rewrite Windows and Office to be truly touch-enabled):

 

Microsoft could spend whatever time, money, blood, sweat, and tears it would take to totally rewrite both Windows and Office to be fully multi-touch enabled (with workarounds to avoid being sued by Apple, naturally.)  Of course, that could take many years. And Microsoft is already desperately behind in the mobile space.

 

So, what do you do when you're trailing in a race?  You go as fast as you can.  And the fastest way to get Windows onto a pad computer was to simply port it straight over.  Microsoft did that way back in 2001 with Windows XP Tablet PC Edition.  Stylus and all.  Because of his stunning lack of vision and near-zero understanding of end-users and consumers in general, Bill Gates thought that was all they needed to do.  So that's all they did.

 

And how well did Windows XP Tablet PC Edition sell?  How have all subsequent pad computing versions of Windows ever sold?  Very poorly.  Over more than 10 years of trying.  It's as if Microsoft did the port as an experiment, it failed, they gave up, crossed their fingers, closed their eyes, and wished very hard that the pad computing era would just somehow go away.  It didn't.

 

Microsoft threw away 10 years.  They could have worked on multi-touch.  They could have thrown away the legacy mouse + keyboard-based interface.  They could have, you know, innovated.  But they didn't.  They failed to see the potential.  Failed to predict the post-PC era.  It would have taken too much time and money to totally rewrite Windows and Office.  So they just slapped another flashy user interface layer onto Windows 7.  The rest of Windows 7 still lurks under the surface, no pun intended.

 

And of course, now it's too late.  Instead of having a 10 year lead on the rest of the industry in the post-PC era, they're now 3 or more years behind.  They're where Apple was when they first started thinking "What would it take to convert OS X and all of its apps to a fully touch-enabled interface?"  And that was probably 3 or 4 years before iPhone shipped.  Back in 2007.  So yeah, that puts Microsoft anywhere from 6 to 9 years behind Apple.

 

So now they can't rewrite Windows and Office.  Because that would take another 3 years at the bare minimum.  And by then they would be even further behind, after ditching the current Surface and Windows 8 with The-User-Interface-Formerly-Known-as-Metro.  So now they're forced to stick with what they have.  To stay the course.  They're stuck.  Can't rewrite Windows + Office because it would simply take too long, if it worked at all.

 

 

2. Because they won't (rewrite Windows and Office to be truly touch-enabled):

 
Question: If Microsoft gave up on the old Windows UI, totally re-did both Windows and Office, and came up with an original multi-touch interface, then what?  What would that say about everything Bill Gates did in his last 10 years at Microsoft?  What would that say about Steve Ballmer's "no compromises" ranting on stage in public on many occasions?
 
Answer: It would confirm everyone's suspicion that Windows and Office are relics of the 20th century.  That Gates and Ballmer were in total denial and that it's time for a totally new OS and office app, maybe not even called Windows or Office.  That Microsoft's two-headed cash cow's days are numbered.
 
Microsoft won't ever do that.  They'll milk the old cow for as long as possible.  They'll milk their OEM PC hardware partners for all they can (ask Michael Dell about that) and they'll milk all those corporate Windows IT shops around the world who are locked in to the old ways of doing things.  Microsoft is just as locked in as they are.  
 
To totally change things would require too much money in re-training classes, too much lost productivity, too much frustration and pain.  Office workers would switch to iPhone and iPad even faster than they already are.
 
No, Microsoft won't do the rewrite, even if it's better for them in the long run.  They can't and they won't.  It will be very interesting to see what they do for Windows 9.  What shallow surface sizzle can they splash onto the tired old Windows?  What new "wow" can they claim in their ads?
 
It really doesn't matter.  Still the legacy keyboard + mouse interface.  Same old thing.  
Same horrible pad computing experience.  Just a different version number.

Edited by SockRolid - 2/6/13 at 12:38pm

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post #68 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

 

Well close; Apple has iOS and MacOS platforms. You can't really run an iOS app on a Mac even in emulation (and I've looked for them).

 

I agree, you can't run unmodified iOS apps on OSX and vice-versa, but since they use the same IDE you can port apps for one to another very easily. iOS IDE has been the Apple trojan horse for bringing a lot of new developers on Objective-C and bringing a whole bunch of new apps coming from the mobile space on OSX, to convince yourself you only got to see how many apps they are on the Mac AppStore that originated from iOS.  

 

I don't know why Microsoft taught Surface RT was a good ideas, this platform is incompatible with both phones and desktops versions of Windows.


Edited by BigMac2 - 2/6/13 at 1:52pm
post #69 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

I don't know why Microsoft taught Surface RT was a good ideas, this platform is incompatible with both phones and desktops versions of Windows.

 

Because Microsoft is run by salesmen.

post #70 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Because Microsoft is run by salesmen.

 

You are probably right, still those salesmen got absolutely no clue on how to built a mobile device ecosystem.

post #71 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

You are probably right, still those salesmen got absolutely no clue on how to built a mobile device ecosystem.

 

Well, yes, they're salesmen.

post #72 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Maybe they shouldn't be trying to pass off a laptop as a tablet, then.

Well... back in the days, Apple tried to pass oversized iPod Touch as a tablet.

It worked brilliantly for them.

Maybe they shouldn't, maybe they should. Only time will tell.
post #73 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

I agree, you can't run unmodified iOS apps on OSX and vice-versa, but since they use the same IDE you can port apps for one to another very easily. iOS IDE has been the Apple trojan horse for bringing a lot of new developers on Objective-C and bringing a whole bunch of new apps coming from the mobile space on OSX, to convince yourself you only got to see how many apps they are on the Mac AppStore that originated from iOS.  

I don't know why Microsoft taught Surface RT was a good ideas, this platform is incompatible with both phones and desktops versions of Windows.

Agreeably RT tablet and Win Phone should be same platform. I think they will merge in future, not unlike Google merged phone and tablet Androids with version 4. Since RT also runs on Snapdragon (Samsung Ativ RT), I would expect that difference between RT and WP is artificial (I might be dead wrong here, though). Where did MS "wisdom" to keep them apart come from, well, I'm not sure even MS really knows. Maybe from their tradition of keeping as many SKUs of essentially same product as possible..?
post #74 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

It's funny, many of the earlier opinions that I read were along the lines of "Surface with Windows RT is useless. Wait for the Surface Pro." But, reading the specs of the Pro, I'd say the exact opposite.
Surface Pro drags the Windows legacy behind it like a dog with cans tied to its tail, and because of that, it stinks as a mobile device. Who'd want this thing instead of a regular laptop?
On the other hand, Surface with Windows RT made a clean break from the past, was much better in terms of power management and had a consistent touch-based GUI. The biggest problems were the price and the lack of apps.
IMO what Microsoft should have done was ONLY release the RT model, but at a substantially lower price-point. This would have fueled many more 'curiosity' purchases and helped to create a market for apps that the platform needs. It also would have reduced market confusion and helped to focus developer energy.
Also "Windows RT" is a bad name. It should have been something like "Metro OS." This is not a windowed operating system! (Or maybe to screw everyone up they could have called in "Command Line.")

That depends on your requirements.

As someone who uses desktop at work and as primary PC at home, I could do Surface Pro-like device just fine. It would give me 100% compatible device in tablet form, which I am finding better than laptop for consumption. At present I'm using Android tablet, but I really am not too happy about things simple on PC, but annoying on tablet - like being part of a workgroup, accessing shared printers/scanner/storage...

In fact I'm looking at Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet 2 which goes for slower dual core Atom, but is less than 600gr and has over 10 hours of battery life, while keeping full x86 compatibility. A test unit we got at work was hijacked by my boss who seems to be really excited aboutit, albeit he is iPhone and iPad user... or maybe I should say "was" as this thing is likely to replace his iPad.

Granted this is work environment where it is still hard to replace full x86 compatibility and still have trouble-free existence in exclusively x86 environment, and Lenovo TP Tablet 2 is created with that on mind. It even has a proper docking station with lan port, display port, a few USB ports... usual things you would find on business notebook... thus converging easily between tablet and light desktop/laptop/thin client device.

Back to Surface Pro, it lacks docking solution which, in my opinion, hampers it's business usability quite a bit... but again, if you need a device that can be part of domain and access all the enterprise services in use, anything but x86 will be a collection of compromises, at best.
post #75 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

The Surface Pro with a keyboard weighs 2.5 lbs. The 11" Macbook Air weighs 2.39 lbs. The Air also has double the battery life and can run OSX and Windows 8. OSX ML on the 64GB Air leaves 56GB of storage space left. Windows 8 on the 64GB Surface Pro leaves 23GB of storage space left. By this time next year, nobody will be talking about the Surface RT or Surface Pro because they are simply crap. Just like nobody talks about the Zune anymore (although at least the Zune was a far better focused device).

Next year, there will be Haswell based Surface Pro with (expected) better battery life and general performance, including much better graphics.

This is, after all, first generation device for Microsoft, and on more than one level. For what it is, it is not bad device.

Re storage, I've posted my findings on some previous posts, based on Windows 8 Enterprise we are using in office.

I've recently checked on some Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet 2 reviews, which is coming with Windows 8 Pro 32-bit. OS takes around 15GB. Recovery partition takes 8GB and can be deleted once backup media is created - in fact, software that creates backup media out of recovery partition will offer user to delete partition after successful media creation. All in all, one can have W8, Office and handful of other smaller apps within 20GB, which is not too bad for 64GB storage, IMHO. And then, there is micro SD card slot, and USB port. And easy access to network shares.
Edited by nikon133 - 2/6/13 at 4:33pm
post #76 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Wow. You managed to cram a lot of errors into one post. Let's highlight a few of them:

- battery life. The MBA has 5-7 hours of battery life compared to 4 for the Surface.

I tend to believe Anandtech more than others when it comes to reviews, so based on them, Surface Pro has:

6 hours of web browsing
5.28 hours of H264 playback in 720p high profile (4Mbps)

They also run their standard battery test for laptops, and it gave them:

5.2 hours in AnandTech 2013 Light test
3.85 hours in AnandTech 2013 Medium test

Unfortunately I don't have Air's scores in same tests. I'm personally finding web browsing and H264 times acceptable.

Quote:
- Storage space. While less than half of the space on a 64 GB Surface is available for use, somwhere around 75-80% is available on the MBA. OS X doesn't take anywhere near as much space, Apple doesn't stuff the system full of shovelware, and the backup is on the Internet rather than on the disk.

This seems to be growing into myth. Windows 8 Pro takes 15GB on comparable Lenovo x86 tablet. Recovery partition and "bonus" software can be removed. Granted you will have more software and data taking space, but OS alone takes about... 23% of 64GB storage?
Quote:
- SD cards have a massive disadvantage - reliability. Not only is the card unreliable, but the extra hardware in the system is a source for problems. But if you really insist on an SD card, you can buy a USB adapter for a few bucks - completely negating your advantage.

I think you are reaching here. I'm yet to have an issue with any flash storage I am using. I do try to keep with good brands, Sandisk, Kingston... No one is forcing you to use it if you have some fears about it, but having an option is bonus. USB adapter would be hanging from tablet, exposed and in a way, which is nowhere as good solution as card completely flush with chasis.
Quote:
- The fact that you consider Thunderbolt to be too expensive is negated by the fact that the Surface Pro is more expensive than the MBA after you pay for the keyboard. Besides, if the cable bothers you so much, just use Airplay. You can buy an MBA with Apple TV for less than the cost of a Surface Pro with keyboard.

This is true. We all know Microsoft will not hold price as good as Air, but at this moment price is definitely not a factor in Surface's advantage. Surface Pro, in the next couple of months, will not be price based choice. It still might sell based on compatibility requirements of individual users, as long as Windows compatibility is required - Air would require additional Windows license. I'm pretty sure battery life under Windows would not be that good either.
Quote:
- You seem to be confused by the fact that tablets and laptops are not the same thing. That's understandable because Microsoft is apparently confused, as well. Apple has products for both markets without creating silly hybrids that do neither thing well.

Don't fall into same trap many did in the last couple of years. Many people believed noone needs oversized iPod Touch, and iPhone sales were considered rounding error. From my experience with Windows 8, low requirement users can completely live in Modern GUI/environment, never-ever touching classic desktop. It is still there somewhere, but it is not in a way unless you want to run something in there. I can see users who might have a need for classic desktop apps once in a while, not often enough to justify laptop and tablet purchase, but still there. Or light laptop users whou would like to get rid of keyboard every now and then and use device to read books, comics or watch something, but again don't want to buy extra device for convenience. So many people, so many individual needs.
Quote:
- While it is correct to say that MS has a single UI to cover all platforms, it has not been established that this is the way to go. Apple has decided to go with GOOD UIs for both tablets and laptops rather than crappy blended UIs. If you doubt that, just read the reviews of WIndows 8. Hardly anyone is praising the new UI.

Much as I have noticed, most people hating Win 8 are quick reviewers and people who tried it for a short period of time. People that I personally know who have actually used it for month or more ar all perfectly fine with it, some enthusiastic, some simply OK. True, it is still early to say if liking will reach mainstream. MS did decide to release new version every year, I think, so they will be basically going for model with cheaper intro price, but will sell small upgrades (service packs?) on yearly basis. If that is correct, we will se Windows 9 this year, and while MS already announced they are not getting rid of tiles and Start Menu is not coming back, I'm sure they will take some of the feedback and polish things to soften the "pain" of people who didn't like their first encounter with Win 8.

Me, I have since upgraded and clean-installed Windows 8 on my work PC, laptop and gaming PC at home, and am really perfectly happy with it. Not that I don't like 7 any more - it is as good as it ever was - but there is no reason I'd ever revert back to 7.
post #77 of 91
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post
Well... back in the days, Apple tried to pass oversized iPod Touch as a tablet.

 

But that's not what it is.


Maybe they shouldn't, maybe they should. Only time will tell.


They shouldn't. Time told before they even announced it. Time told back in 2002 when they did the exact same thing. They haven't learned anything in a decade. They deserve this failure and every one since.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #78 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Zune. 

 

This thing is DOA. MS can't even sell the RT model. The branding is confusing. A laptop trying to be a tablet trying to be a laptop. 

 

The UI is beyond ugly. 

 

Etc., etc. 

 

I can think of virtually no criticism which can't be at least reasonably applied to this ill-conceived attempt at making MS somehow relevant in mobile.

It's the same issue as the netbook fad & the soon to be phablet fad, they are popular for a while until people begin to realize that their compromises make them not really great for anything.  Problem here is they forgot to learn the lesson from forbarers like the transformer.  The market is shifting toward people having a beefy desktop or laptop & then something ultra portable with great battery life for the majority of their use.  

 

The other issue this has is the same issue the Zune had, it's Microsoft brand & they still have this huge stigma thanks to all the bad press they got over the massive Vista flop.  As a Mac guy I don't say this lightly but Win 8 appears to be shaping up into a pretty solid OS for Microsoft, yet they still have a long way to come if they hope to match the simple & intuitive feel of OS X.  I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with that but the Mac GUI is built around functionality with bling thrown in while Windows seems to be designed around impact but with a lot of conflicting functionality.  Microsoft still needs to really streamline their OS & get rid of the 100 ways to do the same thing.  It's very confusing, especially when some of those conflict or are inconsistent.  

post #79 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Apple 
[" url="/t/155828/review-roundup-microsofts-surface-pro-is-about-compromises#post_2272056"]I read that it has a fan?

Several. Short side and long side. Read the AnandTech review, it's full of interesting tiddybits. Can't put the pen away, but you can stick it to the magnetic charge port. I did notice something odd with the first power supply Microsoft sent me. When charging through my power meter, I picked up some interference in the capacitive touch screen itself resulting in around 10% of my taps not being recognized. Microsoft supplied another power supply that seemed to resolve the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Battery life on SP is a killer, in my opinion, for anyone who needs to use a tablet. It's not a "fixed-laptop" as so many are, so that close-by power supply is not as readily available as for a "fixed-laptop".

It's quite a brick, isn't it?

Quote:
@Ikrupp Why the random French words? It doesn't really support your argument to insert random words, y'know.

Touché
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983 View Post

I had high hopes for this. But it looks to be another Microsoft hardware flop like the Zune and the RT before it. Ballmer really needs to go already!

We'd be missing out on all the fun quotes from him. Please, let this fool continue to do exactly what he's doing now.

@SockRolid: good points, good post, thanks
@Fake_William_Shatner: if your enter key is broken you can always CopyPaste them from someplace else. Then I would've read your post.
"Fibonacci: As easy as 1, 1, 2, 3..."
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post #80 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

 

Microsoft would have been better off building a nice thin and light laptop that had touch screen/pen digitizer capabilities than a laptop/tablet hybrid.

Source?

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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