Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilBoogie 


It's actually both: it was marketed as de desktop for professionals. And the iMac was the desktop for consumers. Surely you remember that slide fromt he old iCEO days. Desktop/Laptop / Professional/Consumer

Yeah, I remember.  But to the consumer it's never been presented as a desktop alternative, that was my only point.  

I just find it sad that the minute this rumour raises it's head, there are half a dozen comments by people who are basically expecting an "X Mac" mini-tower (that Apple has never made and never should make).  You do not need a Mac Pro for an "iPhoto server" for instance.  

It's the same tired old crap over and over again from people who think Macs are just like PC's, and that they should be like PC's because of course *everyone* want's to be able to swap graphics cards, etc. etc. blah-blah-blah. 

If they do finally make what these people want, IMO it would be evidence of Apple's decline because it's placing consumerism over professional well-deisgned products if they go that direction.  

I honestly hope that whatever they come up with, that it still costs $3,000 for a good configuration.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBell 

 

 

To each their own, but I would love to have a business in France. The French are very passionate people and we need more of that in the world. 

I was meaning because of the leaks.  Generally they come from China (and a few from Russia), both essentially lawless countries.  

However France (specifically Mac suppliers and resellers in France), has recently been the source of huge amounts of leaks of Apple products, parts, etc. as well.  

It's what that fact "says" about France, and the general attitude towards the law that would make steer me clear.  You can't do effective business in a country that doesn't value IP and follow the law on IP.  Russia and China have never even pretended to care about such things, but France is supposedly a "western" country in the European Union. They are supposed to follow the law on such things, but they clearly don't.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacApfel 

I'm in a university environment as well - unfortunately this does not mean I'm buffered against cost. I know from different institutions that Wolfram is very difficult to deal with when it comes to licencing. So I don't expect the price to go down. It that way, Mathematica is like Apple: great product, and it will most certainly keep its premium. (It's quite funny that the name Mathematica goes back to a suggestion from Steve Jobs.)

Yes, Steven Wolfram and Steve Jobs were quite close professionally I believe. Interesting to see where Wolfram goes over the next few years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolipsismX 


All towers are desktop PCs. You only have three classes of PC: desktop, notebook, and rack. Only two of those have ever been in the consumer realm. The Mac Pro to the Mac mini to the iMac are all designated as desktop PCs. Within that category you have different types of desktops: tower, AIO (all-in-one), SFF (small form-factor). I'm not sure if those are the only subcategories for desktops but it's all I can think of.

Again, I meant "desktop" in the sense of "consumer desktop."  Apologies for the confusion.  I thought at least here that everyone would know what I mean.  

The Mac Pro is exclusively a high-end professional machine  and has never been suggested as a "desktop" for a consumer.  It's not in the same class, nor is it the same thing as that little plastic mini-tower that people have used for desktops in the past.  

It's never suggested that the Mac Pro is deployed as a "desktop" option in business either.  If you are outfitting an office, you don't give your secretaries a choice between an iMac and a Mac Pro.  You just give the a choice between different types of iMacs or a Mac mini.  

The Mac Pro is also never deployed (or only an idiot would deploy it thusly), as a "desktop" when outfitting something like a call centre either.  

In short, anywhere you would deploy a PC mini-tower as a "desktop," you would not deploy a Mac Pro.  So while "the boss" might flatter himself by buying a Mac Pro for his desktop, and while often the self-verified "important" people in an organisation might use it as a desktop, it's not really a "desktop" in the sense that the word is usually used.  

It's maybe a "vanity desktop" in those situations.  

The Art Department, the Media department, and the IT guys might use it as a "professional desktop," but that still doesn't make it at all the same thing as a PC, mini-tower, "desktop."

I wish people would stop asking for a smaller tower. This is a workstation not a desktop, workstations are trucks. Workstations are certified platforms, with near server specs for reliability. When you use workstations for 99.999% uptime on things like rocket, and satellite control you need a solid platform. Or any other heavy level effort. Apple's desktops are the Mini and the iMac and I do not think they are ever going to make a cheap desktop that's upgradable. 

It is my sincere hope they don't lower the bar, I'm very happy with the current design. I'd be thrilled if they added the latest IO (USB3, SATA 3 or 3.5, ThunderBolt) This workstation should be a measure of the highest order, not a dumbed down desktop. It's a heavy lifting beast, wrapped inside a candy coated shell and I for one would not want it any other way.

Please do not screw with excellence. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jragosta 



Granted, adding a high end video card is somewhat expensive at this point, but it's possible with some of the expansion boxes.

There are 0 thunderbolt certified video cards. You won't even find one with compliant drivers in Sonnet's supported list. Even if you get it working, you're likely to have to reboot if it becomes disconnected, and I would not count on full performance, although it probably depends on use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jragosta 


Actually, I consider the Mini to be the desired x-Mac. What are the characteristics of the xMac that people want? Expandability and low price. The Mini is clearly low priced and with Thunderbolt has expandability galore.

Granted, adding a high end video card is somewhat expensive at this point, but it's possible with some of the expansion boxes.

The issue with this is and always has been, I don't want cables, boxes, hard drives, etc all over my desk or else the pretty iMac will end p looking like the Dell shown below which is precisely what Apple tries to prevent. If I have a tower, I can put everything inside it where it should be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightknight 

Should be titled "Rumor: New Mac Pro might be headed to France in Spring"

Because of course Apple has always made unique models for the French market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilM 

 

Because of course Apple has always made unique models for the French market.

They do...everything is in French! 

Quote:

Originally Posted by macxpress 

The issue with this is and always has been, I don't want cables, boxes, hard drives, etc all over my desk or else the pretty iMac will end p looking like the Dell shown below. If I have a tower, I can put everything inside it where it should be.

 

Exactly. And that's not only a question of tidiness, but also of reliability: you don't trip over internal cables and accidentally disconnect them in the middle of a job.

Internal drives are also faster and less expensive. These days I routinely configure our Mac Pros with a third party 256GB SSD boot/application drive, and repurpose the original HD as an internal Time machine backup drive. And that still leaves two open drive bays, three if you count the open optical bay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob53 
 As a workstation, it beat the snot out of Dell, HP and Sun workstations but has languished in recent years.

I don't think that is necessarily true.  We have a z800 that is nearly identical to our Mac Pros in every way except the lack of OS X.  The motherboards are very similar and they have comparable feature.  It has run our Autodesk Flame compositing system for year now without issue and with great performance.  Not sure about Sun, but I figure they also have something similar.  Dell?  Who knows.

The Mac Pro is/was a solid performer, but it never has been bleeding edge.

Originally Posted by AndreiD 

We need a real desktop that also is expandable and has easy access.

If anything, that's the exact opposite of what we need and the exact opposite of what people are saying they want. The Mac Pro isn't a desktop.

Originally Posted by Blastdoor 
Apple's increased transparency regarding their plans for the Mac Pro is really encouraging. …it's a big improvement to have Tim Cook announcing a new product way in advance…

This is the complete opposite of what you should be feeling about this.

Originally Posted by rob53 
Remember, Apple can't sell the current Mac Pro in the EU because of power and fan problems so this could simply be a redesigned enclosure to pass regulations.

 

You must be joking about that.

Originally Posted by PhilBoogie 
Will they create a new tagline, or simply reuse an old one?

 

Mac. To the power of 12.

16. Time to Samba.

This could even be the ad, just replace the 16s on sticks with Apple logos and the big 16 with a dancing Mac Pro with eyes.

As for the "desktop" designation,

Originally Posted by PhilBoogie 
It's actually both: it was marketed as de desktop for professionals.

As for the desktop issue, the Mac Pro is closer to the historical "workstation" nomenclature than calling it a pro desktop.

Originally Posted by Elderloc 
This is a workstation not a desktop…

 

Some people get it.

Originally Posted by macxpress 
Correct, its a desktop. It may not be sitting on your desktop, but its still classified as a "desktop" computer.

Originally Posted by AndreiD 
It is a pro desktop sure! But the fact of the matter is it is still a desktop.

 

And some people just do not get it at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rot'nApple 

 

That or March 1st and Europe will go dark for a few months as the new Mac Pro could be introduced on June 19th, the very last day of Spring in the Northern Hemisphere.  Hey, they said iMac would be available in November and it was...  November 30th!   

/

/

/

Right, but at least there won't be any display manufacturing issues. So probably not as much delay as for the iMac. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin 

Facts we know:

- a Mac Pro is coming in 2013
- Ivy Bridge E is scheduled for Q3 2013 (beginning July)
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Ivy_Bridge-E-LGA_2011-X79-cpu-mobo,16588.html
- right now Intel doesn't have a Xeon chipset for USB 3, SATA 6G, PCIe3 etc - Apple would have to add those themselves without a new chipset

From the above link:
"What remains to be seen is if Intel will launch a new chipset, along with the release of the Ivy Bride-E processors. If history repeats itself, expect Intel to release a new chipset with Ivy Bridge-E to replace the X79 chipset. As with the current Ivy Bridge, Intel released a new chipset with the transfer to the Ivy Bridge processor, though it made certain current LGA 1155 chipsets were compatible. With current X79 chipsets not fully certified for PCIe 3.0, we look for the new chipset to be fully PCIe 3.0 certified, along with other features being implemented with the Lynx Point Chipset on the "Haswell" platform."

If it was coming in early Spring, they either have an early exclusive for both the chipset and the processor (they had a short exclusive with the 2010 model) or they'd be going with Sandy Bridge (2 year old architecture at that point) with likely USB 2, SATA 3G and PCIe 2.
A more likely outcome is that they will launch it at WWDC in early June with Ivy Bridge E and it will have a new chipset supporting USB 3, PCIe 3, SATA 6G and maybe even Thunderbolt. This will mean Europe will have to survive on reseller supplies for 3-4 months so they'd need about 1 million units to avoid all professional creative work grinding to a halt - TV ads will stop running, there will be no music, websites wil revert to text-only and we'll all have to start playing board games instead of going to the movies. The horror. But no, the iMac survived with a 5 week hiatus for the 21.5" and longer for the 27" so a June launch wouldn't be the end of the world and it might have to ship in July if they don't get a short exclusive.

You're looking at the wrong chipset and drifting off into hyperbole (2 year old architecture when sandy bridge EP workstations didn't ship until early Q3 2012). They would use one of the C600 type chipsets unless they switch to completely different parts. These are not likely to change, but every other workstation vendor included usb3. They'd need to test usb3 chipsets for the thunderbolt display as well, so there is no excuse aside from laziness or an unwillingness to devote a couple engineers to development. The same thing happened with nehalem to westmere and from woodcrest to clovertown. Chipsets typically last two generations in this area. Thunderbolt being integrated is even less likely. It solves a problem that intel may not see as a problem in that space. It's also unlikely that they want to risk it being pushed back further. Note the original Sandy Bridge recall where the problem also pushed back Sandy Bridge E/EP/EN.  I also think you're being way too optmistic on Ivy. Intel has continually slipped on these. It's more likely that a shipping product would move to late in the year. I'd say a late Sandy with Ivy showing up next year would be a far more likely scenario. I'm not sure if Ivy Bridge EX will even ship this year, not that it matters for Apple. Those are solely for big iron servers up to 4 sockets. It occurs to me though that they probably aren't expecting exponential growth at the mainstream cpu level, or they'd be more worried about a greater level of cannibalization. I would like it if the mac pro was better designed for some of the gpus they've been using in recent configurations. The 200W gpus weren't there or in use at the time of the G5, and gpu death is one of the more common mac pro complaints. I abhor the form over function concept, but better alignment with the engineering could result in a superior case design if they're serious about that line. I think the predictions of cheaper are silly as they predict a complete reversal in tangent. The mac pros have gone up in price somewhere with every revision. Reversing that is doubtful unless they are going for a completely different pricing strategy.

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil 
As for the "desktop" designation,

 

Some people get it.

 

And some people just do not get it at all.

Sure and wiki is wrong too:

"A desktop computer is a personal computer (PC) in a form intended for regular use at a single location, as opposed to a mobile laptop or portable computer. Early desktop computers are designed to lie flat on the desk, while modern towers stand upright. Most modern desktop computers have separate screens and keyboards."

Describing a Mac Pro? Or a professional DESKTOP if you like?

As you can see nowhere it says that the computer HAS to sit on top of the desk to be called a DESKTOP as some people suggested here. Shiiish!

Quote:

Originally Posted by macxpress 

The issue with this is and always has been, I don't want cables, boxes, hard drives, etc all over my desk or else the pretty iMac will end p looking like the Dell shown below which is precisely what Apple tries to prevent. If I have a tower, I can put everything inside it where it should be.

 

 

Only 2 of those cables can't be integrated into a tower. They are the display cord and display power cord. Further if you needed any external storage aside from the obvious backup (which you'd need to add either way) that would bring them into parity.  It's amusing how they display the all in one with all of its usb ports empty and the tower without any kind of cord management to bundle them neatly. As much as I hate spaghetti setups, that image has always been biased.

I am a Mac Pro owner. Luckily mine is not terribly old so I have not been desperate for a new model. I am excited to hear a new one is coming and depending on specs may decide to upgrade.

It seems to me Intel has really dropped the ball with Xeon. They are so far behind their Core series in terms of support for things like USB3, SATA 6G, PCIe3, and thunderbolt. Years ago when the first Intel Macs were released the Xeon was a powerhouse compared to the CPU's they used in the iMac. Now that really is not so clear cut with the newest Core i7's. I haven't followed it that closely but a quick google search turned up this for example. 

Intel Core i7-3970X Extreme Edition Sandy Bridge-E 3.5GHz (4.0GHz Turbo) LGA 2011 150W Six-Core Desktop Processor BX80619i73970X

That is a pretty powerful CPU and with 12 virtual cores, 15MB L3 Cache, and speeds up to 4 GHz would satisfy most Mac Pro owners at least as the entry level model. I wish they would offer this config for entry level, then have the mid and high ends with Xeons. The entry level Mac Pro now only has one Xeon CPU and not two and sells for $2499. If they plan on keeping the entry level model with just one CPU, why not go with a Core i7 which gives us a lot more bang for our buck? 

I also hope the graphics card they use is a new and fast card. In the past they have had a bad habit of using slightly older mid range cards as the base card and then charging a good deal more than retail to get a high end card and even then it is not always the newest or fastest card available. This is important since it is not always easy to buy Mac Pro compatible high end cards a few years later so we are often very limited in our choice. I was excited to hear about EFI as a big advancement years ago but now I curse it since it seems to be the reason why so few cards will work in our Mac Pro which defeats the expandability advantage.

I thought once the Mac went from PPC to Intel that the days of waiting what seemed to be forever for a new G4 or G5 power mac were over. I also thought that prices would actually come down a bit with the switch. At least with the recent Mac Pro I was wrong on both counts. 

I can only hope that this is not the current MacPro with a shield added to the fans to meet the new EU safety standards....

I have a large photo studio/digital printing company, and we have 2 maxed-out MacPros - 2007 and 2009.  I've been waiting for more that a year to spend the $$$ in my equipment savings fund on a new MacPro - with faster processors, expanded RAM, SSD, USB3, Thunderbolt, and improved speeds on an eSATA board for running external drives ... in other words, 2013 computing.

In my studio we work with a digital scan back on a 4x5 camera (Better Light) and we often work on (and store) images that exceed 1.3 GB each --- I spend a lot of time watching progress bars go across a Photoshop screen.  I also keep working to update color profiles and to get Macs to work with our NEC high-end monitors ....  and the latest wide-format printers.  There are just too many daily reminders that things have gotten old and are in need of updates.

My only worry is that a company that would delete a door for RAM upgrades to allow for "thin" edges on a computer that never moves from a desk top has lost contact with (or fired) the design engineers who understand what the concept of a "work station" means to me ....

I've been a Mac user since my first Photoshop efforts - with P.S. v.2.0 on a Mac IIfx in 1991 ---- I've lived through a lot of Macs and Mac Pros (G3, G4, and Intels) - I remain optimistic, but worried. I love my iMacs, my iPad, my iPod, and my iPhone --- but I NEED a real computer.

@Tallest

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerk36 

I love the MacPro.  My 2007 8 core model is still a powerhouse.  

Same here. Too bad it can't run ML

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilBoogie 

11. The 64-bit professional dream machine.

Yeah except it was only partially 64 bit when launched. It did not support 64 bit kernel until 2008.

Originally Posted by AndreiD 

As you can see nowhere it says that the computer HAS to sit on top of the desk to be called a DESKTOP as some people suggested here. Shiiish!

Yes, because that was my point, at all, ever, I'm done with these superlatives; you have to be able to understand both how necessary and how tiring they are, I mean come on, at any time¡ That's certainly my criteria, not anything else at all¡

When you have an actual argument, feel free to post it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigPhotos 

In my studio we work with a digital scan back on a 4x5 camera (Better Light) and we often work on (and store) images that exceed 1.3 GB each --- I spend a lot of time watching progress bars go across a Photoshop screen.  I also keep working to update color profiles and to get Macs to work with our NEC high-end monitors ....  and the latest wide-format printers.  There are just too many daily reminders that things have gotten old and are in need of updates.

What do you shoot? I never hear of anyone using those these days given their somewhat cumbersome nature. I mean you need huge ballasts for lighting as opposed to strobes and the current quality of medium format digital. I figured Better Light was mostly relegated to digitizing old paintings and documents that can't be fit on a large Scitex without the risk of damage. Also what kind of problems are you having with Spectraview? Is it that thing where it sometimes spits out wacky Delta E validations? Do you allow the colorimeter and display to warm up first? Also are you using one of their i1 display bundles if you're using the PA series? I switched to Eizo a while ago mostly because they're quicker about bug fixes. I still like NEC though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by macxpress 

The issue with this is and always has been, I don't want cables, boxes, hard drives, etc all over my desk or else the pretty iMac will end p looking like the Dell shown below which is precisely what Apple tries to prevent. If I have a tower, I can put everything inside it where it should be.

 

 

Why use an image of a Dell computer from about 5 years ago?

Why not a current version similar to the iMac shown? Maybe the latest Del AIO?

Like this one.....Dell XPS One 27 inch touch screen. I would rather have an iMac but at least compare like items....

Originally Posted by rob53 
Remember, Apple can't sell the current Mac Pro in the EU because of power and fan problems so this could simply be a redesigned enclosure to pass regulations.

 

"You must be joking about that."

This was discussed a week or so ago. Apple might be making it up but I didn't.

Originally Posted by rob53 
This was discussed a week or so ago. Apple might be making it up but I didn't.

No, joking that they'd spend millions on a fan redesign, changing nothing else about the product, for the sake of the EU's nannying. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekdad 

Why use an image of a Dell computer from about 5 years ago?

Why not a current version similar to the iMac shown? Maybe the latest Del AIO?

Like this one.....Dell XPS One 27 inch touch screen. I would rather have an iMac but at least compare like items....

You completely didn't get what was getting at. I was trying to get it the wire mess connecting external hard drives, video cards (if ever possible), and other thunderbolt devices as a result of not having an iMac. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jragosta 


That's true, but at the time, the iMac was clearly an entry level machine. Even though I didn't consider myself to be a power user, I bought a Mac Pro at the time - because I wanted the expandability and better capabilities. There were a lot of people for whom the iMac was not sufficient.

Today, the iMac is a very different beast. With i7 processor, up to 16 GB of RAM, SSD, and TB expandability, it's far more power than most people need. Only a tiny percentage need something like the Mac Pro.

Slight correction: you can go up to 32 GB of RAM on the 27" iMacs from mid-2010 onwards, and it's pretty affordable to do so. That probably only reinforces your point, of course.

Initially sales could be very robust due to pent up demand.   Going forward though it will be far more interesting and frankly will depend upon the value that people see in the design.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

It can't come soon enough. Unfortunately, many pros have simply moved on to an iMac or MacBook Pro, so I wouldn't be surprised if sales are a bit soft.

 

Also, they really need to get back to their previous pricing structure where they would sell a bare bones Power Mac for ~$1799.

Actually at $1799 it needs to be better than Bare Bones.   In a nut shell this is the Mac Pros biggest problem today, that. Is the lack of value in the entry level machines.   There are ways for Apple to address this so it will be very interesting to see what the new Mac Pro looks like.    

At least now we have a time frame as it looks like less than two months to go.  

Originally Posted by geekdad 

I can't decide whether that's pathetic or funny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmm 

Only 2 of those cables can't be integrated into a tower. They are the display cord and display power cord. Further if you needed any external storage aside from the obvious backup (which you'd need to add either way) that would bring them into parity.  It's amusing how they display the all in one with all of its usb ports empty and the tower without any kind of cord management to bundle them neatly. As much as I hate spaghetti setups, that image has always been biased.

Again, you didn't get what I was getting at. Read my entire post again and don't just look at the picture. Its not the keyboard and the mouse thats the concern. Its the 50,000 other devices you have to connect if you want other items. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekdad 

Why use an image of a Dell computer from about 5 years ago?

Why not a current version similar to the iMac shown? Maybe the latest Del AIO?

Like this one.....Dell XPS One 27 inch touch screen. I would rather have an iMac but at least compare like items....

 

If you want to compare like with like the current iMac is a lot thinner than that.