Test finds Surface Pro's storage space comparable to MacBook Air - Page 2

So many informed opinions about the Surface Pro. Glad to see that so many people got one already to do some objective testing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drobforever 

Surface pro is DOA but not because of storage. It's really a non-issue for most people

It sounds terrific for artists though. The finger-painting on iOS isn't adequate and won't be until we get Wacom-like line-weight variation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohannjn 

I have a MacBook Air and and MacBook Pro along with two other Macs and three iPads. When I touch the screen on any OS X computer nothing happens. Forget the comments about screen angle, battery life, etc.

I appreciate the comments but there are differences and Apple needs to put touch in OS X at some point.

They promoted this with iOS and customers expect it.

How many times have you seen a 4 year old touch the screen on a MacBook computer (any model). Apple needs to let the 4 years olds guide them.

I think their touch design for laptops makes far more sense. I use gestures on my Mac everyday and my arms don't get tired.  It works far better than having a laptop or desktop computer with an OS that some things work with touch while other don't.  I have a keyboard cover case for my iPad, which by the way was out before Microsoft's "innovation" was even displayed, it is exhausting and annoying going back and forth between the screen and keyboard. I bought this arrangement for taking notes at school but was forced to just go ahead and buy the Macbook Air to keep from carrying my Pro everyday.  In fact, I keep wishing my keyboard case had track pad gesture support, and so the back and forth would be unnecessary. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jragosta 


That's what I thought but I didn't have a recent Mac to check.

Correct. 12GB used, including all the applications AND Microsoft Office 2011 for Mac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banalltv 

 

It sounds terrific for artists though. The finger-painting on iOS isn't adequate and won't be until we get Wacom-like line-weight variation.

If we ignore the fact that magazine covers have been created on the iPhone. Find a new talking point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iandean 

Nonesense! I was in the apple store yesterday looking at brand new MacBook Air. It was using little over 8.5 GB of its 128GB Space. Clearly this guy installed a bunch more apps on the machine greatly effecting the results.

LOL! Exactly 8.5 GB is a lot more realistic. But maybe if you leave all Garageband and iMove extra content on the hard disk it may very well add some more GB. But as far as I know, the Surface comes with very little extra software if at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ankleskater 

So many informed opinions about the Surface Pro. Glad to see that so many people got one already to do some objective testing.

I've read enough reviews of those who did and it doesn't make me want one.  I'm still trying to figure out who they're expecting to buy this.

And the way Microsoft fanboys are defending this product is quite amusing.  On the one hand they compare it to the iPad saying its a much better tablet because you can do real work on it and run real PC programs on it.  Yet when someone brings up crap battery life, weight and thickness (for a tablet) the MS tribe morphs it in to an Ultrabook and says its not fair to compare it to the battery life and form factor of a tablet.  But when some one argues its not really a great laptop because its hard to use on your lap without it falling backwards (all the weight is in the screen) then it becomes a tablet again and we're told it's not meant for use on your lap.

Surface is a very confused product full of compromises.  Only the MS apologists on sites like c|net and ZDNet would try and push it as the future of computing,

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymouse 

 

If we ignore the fact that magazine covers have been created on the iPhone. Find a new talking point.

I've seen some of those, the art produced is limited and crude, like an enlarged sketch. While an enlarged sketch can have a charm of its own these are used as finished art only because of the gimmick of having been produced on a phone.

It's really not the best tool for the job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banalltv 

 

It sounds terrific for artists though. The finger-painting on iOS isn't adequate and won't be until we get Wacom-like line-weight variation.

Really?

You should let David Kassan and David Hockney know that they are wasting their time on the iPad. I'm sure you are in their class as an artist to make such a comment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constable Odo 

Consumers are happy that OSX is an entertainment delivery system. That's why they're buying more Apple computers and less Windows PCs.

Ah yes, the tired old "toy" argument from a resident troll. Yep, "real" work can only be done with Windows.

I've emailed Ed asking him how he got to 92gb of usable space on the Air.  He asks in the article title, who's being honest - and frankly he's being dishonest or disingenuous at best, with this comparison.  The honest answer is that Windows is a hog of an OS and there is no sense making comparisons and trying to suggest otherwise.

The question supporters of MS should be making is "Why doesn't MS figure out how to trim down the OS for mobile hardware?"  Of course I already know the answer is "You get a full "real" OS on the Surface" and "I can run any legacy Windows programs on it".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banalltv 

 

It sounds terrific for artists though. The finger-painting on iOS isn't adequate and won't be until we get Wacom-like line-weight variation.

Please educate your self, you shouldn't said the most antique form of art is inadequate. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ipad+art&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=iw0VUZbEMOLB0AH1wIHYCQ&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1227&bih=907#hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&rls=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=ipad+art&oq=ipad+art&gs_l=img.3...0.0.0.387803.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c..2.img.6-5U7W66OjU&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.dmQ&fp=23d9bda16109685e&biw=1227&bih=907

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

 

Really?

 

You should let David Kassan and David Hockney know that they are wasting their time on the iPad. I'm sure you are in their class as an artist to make such a comment?

Yes, really.

Hockney's stuff on the iPad is crude and basic and is lauded more because it's by a big name and less because it's objectively good. If you didn't know it was a Hockney, how would you view it? As quality or not as quality?

I looked up Kassan, and it really is nice. If he did this picture of the girl all on an iPad then my hat really is off to him:

http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/david_kassan_ipad_portrait_3.jpg

But my point is that you can produce quicker and better on a full computer with a Cintiq or, as it sounds, on the Surface Pro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMac2 

 

Please educate your self, you shouldn't said the most antique form of art is inadequate. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ipad+art&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=iw0VUZbEMOLB0AH1wIHYCQ&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1227&bih=907#hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&tbo=d&rls=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=ipad+art&oq=ipad+art&gs_l=img.3...0.0.0.387803.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c..2.img.6-5U7W66OjU&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.dmQ&fp=23d9bda16109685e&biw=1227&bih=907

You educate yourself.

I checked your link, there is some good stuff there and they totally look great in thumbnails. But look at them full size and you can clearly see the limitations and inefficiencies that you are freed from when using a Cintiq on a full computer. You surely can produce under those limitations but they do limit you.

Finger painting in iOS is really not the best tool for the job. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banalltv 

 

 

You educate yourself.

 

I checked your link, there is some good stuff there and they totally look great in thumbnails. But look at them full size and you can clearly see the limitations and inefficiencies that you are freed from when using a Cintiq on a full computer. You surely can produce under those limitations but they do limit you.

 

Finger painting in iOS is really not the best tool for the job. 

Have you ever seen a real oil painting in your life, a real Van Gogh with rough brush strokes where you need to steps 10 feet away to enjoy the art? Let's say your points about size, limitation and inefficiencies is ridiculous, an 2048 x 2048 px canvas is more than enough for good looking illustration. Art is about creating amazing stuff with anything, and the iPad is a legit and accessible way to express many form of artistic creation. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMac2 

 

Have you ever seen a real oil painting in your life, a real Van Gogh with rough brush strokes where you need to steps 10 feet away to enjoy the art? Let's say your points about size, limitation and inefficiencies is ridiculous, an 2048 x 2048 px canvas is more than enough for good looking illustration. Art is about creating amazing stuff with anything, and the iPad is a legit and accessible way to express many form of artistic creation. 

Yes, I have.

Sure the iPad is a legit way to do it, but it is limited and it sounds like the Surface Pro has the potential to be a better tool for this use.

This is disingenuous nonsense and the hard numbers are all over the map this morning depending on which version of the article you read.  

This for example (from a version of the same article):  

It's also irrelevant and reprehensible to suggest that the consumer "take out the recovery information and put it on a USB stick."  

There is also the factor (unmentioned in almost every instance of this article), that Office doesn't come stock on the Surface Pro so it isn't mentioned or included.  Whereas there are quite a few stock apps on the MacBook Air (iLife, etc.) that *do* come pre-installed.  The author fails to mention or suggest that removing these would also make a substantial difference in the MacBook Air's favour.  

If you're going to argue that "the Surface Pro is better is you remove this and that," one should also include a variety of configuration options and measure the effect of all of them.  This is clearly biased bullshit. 

People are also overlooking the fact that no matter how you swing the numbers, the MacBook Air still "wins" either by a little or by a substantial amount.  

The more realistic title for these articles might be something like "MacBook Air gives the user ~10% more user space than Surface Pro out of the box."  

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohannjn 

I have a MacBook Air and and MacBook Pro along with two other Macs and three iPads. When I touch the screen on any OS X computer nothing happens. Forget the comments about screen angle, battery life, etc.

I appreciate the comments but there are differences and Apple needs to put touch in OS X at some point.

They promoted this with iOS and customers expect it.

How many times have you seen a 4 year old touch the screen on a MacBook computer (any model). Apple needs to let the 4 years olds guide them.

i agree, and expect OSX 10.9 to add basic touch UI elements, for Mac laptops at least, with some models of the next generation of MacBooks adding touch screens. but the new touch elements will be limited in number i think, and more closely mimic OS X trackpad gestures than iOS. Apple will keep them simple and focused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogifan 

I've read enough reviews of those who did and it doesn't make me want one.  I'm still trying to figure out who they're expecting to buy this.

 

And the way Microsoft fanboys are defending this product is quite amusing.  On the one hand they compare it to the iPad saying its a much better tablet because you can do real work on it and run real PC programs on it.  Yet when someone brings up crap battery life, weight and thickness (for a tablet) the MS tribe morphs it in to an Ultrabook and says its not fair to compare it to the battery life and form factor of a tablet.  But when some one argues its not really a great laptop because its hard to use on your lap without it falling backwards (all the weight is in the screen) then it becomes a tablet again and we're told it's not meant for use on your lap.

 

Surface is a very confused product full of compromises.  Only the MS apologists on sites like c|net and ZDNet would try and push it as the future of computing,

exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cash907 

Wait... aren't Tablet's and PC's the same? Didn't I just read AI, as well as a bunch of other AI commenters, try to make that argument all day?

 

Certainly seems to be a prevalence of short memory here.

It's clear that Microsoft thinks tablets and PC's are the same.  

The Surface Pro is by any reasonable estimation (and is identified as such by almost every review of it), a hybrid laptop.  Now, a laptop is a PC, so...  the Surface and the Surface Pro are both "PC's."  

I find it weird that anyone would even suggest that a tablet isn't a PC.  If I attach a keyboard to an iPad, how is it substantially different from any netbook ever made in form and general design? It only has a slightly different screen.  It has a different OS, but putting Linux on a netbook doesn't magically change it into anything other than a netbook.   A tablet is a PC with a virtual keyboard instead of a physically attached one.  A tablet with a bluetooth keyboard is the same as a netbook with a detachable keyboard.  

And finally, the kicker ... 

Microsoft sold "Tablet PC's" for years and included them in it's own "PC" category of sales.  

Other than the OS, a "Microsoft Tablet PC" was essentially the same as any other tablet (including the iPad) sold today.  At least it is in general design and definition.  

Only a moron would argue that a tablet is not a PC.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkrupp 

 

Ah yes, the tired old "toy" argument from a resident troll. Yep, "real" work can only be done with Windows.

In fairness, he has a limited field of view from that bucket he lives in.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banalltv 

 

Yes, really.

 

Hockney's stuff on the iPad is also crude and basic and is lauded more because it's by a big name and less because it's objectively good. If you didn't know it was a Hockney, how would you view it? As quality or not as quality?

 

I looked up Kassan, and it really is nice. If he did this picture of the girl all on an iPad then my hat really is off to him:

 

http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/david_kassan_ipad_portrait_3.jpg

 

But my point is that you can produce quicker and better on a full computer with a Cintiq or, as it sounds, on the Surface Pro.

It sounds like you don't understand art. Art is not about using the most efficient tool (nor is it about creating the most amazing stuff, as someone suggested). Every tool, every medium allows an artist to express himself/herself differently in a creative way. No one would suggest Jackson Pollock was pursuing efficiency when he decided to drip household paint on a canvas spread on the floor. But this method was the right medium for him. That is an extreme example, and I don't mean to marginalize the iPad as an extreme tool. The point is that efficiency (at least not in the sense you imply) is not what art is about. 

I would agree if you argue that finger-painting on an iPad does not give you the precision control or a Wacom pen (for the sake of this argument, let's not even discuss the fact that there are touch pens available for the iPad). But no Wacom pen tool can replicate some of the work being produced on the iPad. For an artist, the consideration is simply - can a tool enable me to express and create what I want to? For many artists, it is a resounding yes. For others, it is a definitive no. But, for sure, your generalization that iOS fingerpainting is not adequate is rooted in a misunderstanding of artistic creation.

FYI, Kassan did that particular portrait on the iPad using the Nomad brush. But you can find him doing portraits using his fingers on YouTube. You should also look up Sam Kerr, who uses the iPhone!!! This brings me to another point. If it is about efficiency, then iOS devices are rather efficient for artists who need/want to create when inspiration strikes. But I won't belabor this, because efficiency is not the issue (at least not in the sense you are thinking).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac101 

I think that is why Apple doesn't build a 64GB notebooks.

They do of course, and they kind of suck at that size, but ... a few offices over from me there is a huge pile of this years MacBook Air 64GB models that are loaned out on a daily basis so I pulled a few and checked the HD's.  

Result:  

The OS + iLife (standard install in other words with nothing removed) + Microsoft Office 2011 (full install) == 16.28 GB used up out of 59.8GB available. 

Needless to say the install isn't going to be any bigger on a 128GB model.  

This is *with* Office.  

So on a 128 that's roughly 86% free *after* installing Office and all the crap that comes with it. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

It sounds like you don't understand art. 

Yes, I do.

Pollock absolutely was using the most efficient tool for what he wanted to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

I would agree if you argue that finger-painting on an iPad does not give you the precision control or a Wacom pen..

You can still produce a result on an iPad or iPhone, but the process of getting that result is more awkward. Simply that. A Wacom Pen on a desktop will get you to that same result and better, quicker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

But no Wacom pen tool can replicate some of the work being produced on the iPad.

 

Of course it can, if you select a similar brush and turn off line weight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

FYI, Kassan did that particular portrait on the iPad using the Nomad brush.

 

My hat is off to him, it's staggering. The Nomad Brush is new to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

But you can find him doing portraits using his fingers on YouTube.

 

I did, they seem like they would be better and more quickly done on a Cintiq than an iPad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

You should also look up Sam Kerr, who uses the iPhone!!! 

I did, it's really sweet! Thanks! But it's all done within the limitations that the Surface Pro seems like it might have less of. My point is, less limited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

iOS devices are rather efficient for artists who need/want to create when inspiration strikes.

Mobility is the single advantage that iPad and iPhone art production has over producing on a desktop, and the Surface Pro seems to equal that mobility (battery life notwithstanding) but with all the other advantages that a desktop has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfiejr 

i agree, and expect OSX 10.9 to add basic touch UI elements, for Mac laptops at least, with some models of the next generation of MacBooks adding touch screens. but the new touch elements will be limited in number i think, and more closely mimic OS X trackpad gestures than iOS. Apple will keep them simple and focused.

Why does anyone need to touch the screen on a laptop?  Or desktop?  In their present form where your hands operate on a plane almost 90 degrees different than the screen, how is touching the screen even something considered to be normal or desired?  I would argue that the thing Apple will go after on laptops and desktops (iMac and Mac Pro) will be an even bigger trackpad.  Maybe even a virtual keyboard / trackpad combination.  That would make sense, allowing your hands to work on the flat plane they're normally at when working on a laptop or desktop.

I have enough issues with people touching both my mba and iMac screens as it is - just to point out something on-screen.  I can only imagine what a laptop or desktop screen will look like with fingerprints and smudges all over it.  People suggest it will be good for designers and photo pro's to have touch screen - but aren't these people already highly focused on screen perfection?  Adding in fingerprints to their job will not be a benefit as far as I can see.

Originally Posted by jmgregory1 
In their present form where your hands operate on a plane almost 90 degrees different than the screen, how is touching the screen even something considered to be normal or desired?  I would argue that the thing Apple will go after on laptops and desktops (iMac and Mac Pro) will be an even bigger trackpad.  Maybe even a virtual keyboard / trackpad combination.

Apple is going to get rid of laptops entirely. They'll be dropped in favor of tablets.

Not soon, no, but before the end of the decade.

Originally Posted by SolipsismX 
Look at how prolific laptops have been and yet we still have desktops.

Two different uses. Thing is, tablets are going to eclipse the power of laptops, but laptops will never be able to eclipse the power of desktops. Desktops also serve size requirements that laptops and other portable solutions physically can't, nor will they ever (larger and/or multiple screens, storage once we hit the physical limit as well as now, having more, more cheaply, sooner…).

Tablets are in the same vein as laptops—a portable computing solution. They both serve the same purpose, but the tablet does it better, and with more versatility. The only thing left is power, and ARM is rapidly gaining in that regard. 

Originally Posted by jragosta 
End of the decade? 7 years from now? I don't think so. Not even close.

Seems a long time to go with a desktop OS that keeps gaining more and more touch features… Sure you won't change your mind in two years' time?

Eventually a cursor will become an impediment to computing. People will scream for touch done right.

Originally Posted by SolipsismX 
I really don't see the MS Surface with a kickstand and TouchCover as the future of notebook-like computing.

 

Oh, of course not. I see it as iPads with Smart Covers. Software keyboards whose stigma people have gotten over. And enough power to render any modern laptop unusable.

Of course, I see a larger iPad, as well. At least 13". Maybe even a 15", but I'm not sure about that. Though, then again, I "wasn't sure" about a smaller iPad, so a 15" probably makes sense to some people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmgregory1 

Why does anyone need to touch the screen on a laptop?  Or desktop?  In their present form where your hands operate on a plane almost 90 degrees different than the screen, how is touching the screen even something considered to be normal or desired?  I would argue that the thing Apple will go after on laptops and desktops (iMac and Mac Pro) will be an even bigger trackpad.  Maybe even a virtual keyboard / trackpad combination.  That would make sense, allowing your hands to work on the flat plane they're normally at when working on a laptop or desktop.

 

I have enough issues with people touching both my mba and iMac screens as it is - just to point out something on-screen.  I can only imagine what a laptop or desktop screen will look like with fingerprints and smudges all over it.  People suggest it will be good for designers and photo pro's to have touch screen - but aren't these people already highly focused on screen perfection?  Adding in fingerprints to their job will not be a benefit as far as I can see.

yes fingerprints are definitely a downside of any touch UI. but then i personally don't really like trackpads at all. right clicks are too darn hard. and why are they always in the middle of the keyboard? i'm right handed, so they would be a lot esier to use if located at the right corner (with left corner options for lefties too). bad ergonomics. i love the Magic Mouse tho.

so when i go back to a MacBook now after using an iPad for a while, i find myself touching the screen without thinking. just for simple one-click kind of stuff and scrolling, pinch/zoom. but of course nothing happens and i realize it's different.

i see touch UI element augmenting, not replacing, standard OSX controls. mainly to increase their convenience. so, unlike Windows 8, software would not need to be redesigned to work well because of touch UI elements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wigby 


Greetings time traveller. When might I be able to purchase the hit products known as iPhone 6 and iPad 5? I hear they're a real hit!

yeah, i lose track of all these sequel numbers. are we at Die Hard 5, 6, or 7?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banalltv 

Yes, I do.

Pollock absolutely was using the most efficient tool for what he wanted to do.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

I would agree if you argue that finger-painting on an iPad does not give you the precision control or a Wacom pen..

 

You can still produce a result on an iPad or iPhone, but the process of getting that result is more awkward. Simply that. A Wacom Pen on a desktop will get you to that same result and better, quicker.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

But no Wacom pen tool can replicate some of the work being produced on the iPad.

 

 

Of course it can, if you select a similar brush and turn off line weight.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

FYI, Kassan did that particular portrait on the iPad using the Nomad brush.

 

 

My hat is off to him, it's staggering. The Nomad Brush is new to me.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

But you can find him doing portraits using his fingers on YouTube.

 

 

I did, they seem like they would be better and more quickly done on a Cintiq than an iPad.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

You should also look up Sam Kerr, who uses the iPhone!!! 

 

I did, it's really sweet! Thanks! But it's all done within the limitations that the Surface Pro seems like it might have less of. My point is, less limited.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by stelligent 

 

iOS devices are rather efficient for artists who need/want to create when inspiration strikes.

 

Mobility is the single advantage that iPad and iPhone art production has over producing on a desktop, and the Surface Pro seems to equal that mobility (battery life notwithstanding) but with all the other advantages that a desktop has.

I'd like to point out that your original premise was that iOS fingerpainting was inadequate. It sounds that you are either no longer espousing that extreme view or have at least agreed that more than adequate art can be and has been created using iOS.

Wacom pen tools and tablets are wonderful. But a few last thoughts:

- It is simply not true that, whatever brush effects you tweak (line weight, etc.), Wacom pen tools can replicate finger painting. A finger on glass (or canvas) is a different tool than a brush in hand. Brushes (and digital pens) are more versatile. But the tactile and kinesthetic feedback of a finger are different than those of a pressure sensitive pen and will lead to a different painting.

- Pollock was not using the most efficient tool. He was using the tool that felt right, artistically and emotionally. From what you are writing,  I am sorry to say, you don't appreciate the difference. I mean no disrespect because you have been respectful and thoughtful in our discourse.

- I'm puzzled about your assumption that Surface Pro will give you the same functionality as a Wacom tablet. Microsoft did indeed incorporate Wacom technology in the SP (reportedly 1024 levels of pressure sensing in their pen). But reviews suggest that the performance is nothing like the real thing. Furthermore, as mentioned, there are pressure-sensitive pens available for the iPad, including one from Wacom. So, what is it that makes you think the Surface Pro is superior for art and the iPad is inadequate?

- In the end, it's about the software. If you have used Paper on the iPad, particularly its color mixing tool, you just might come around in your thinking.

As mentioned, these are my last thoughts. So, feel free to have a last word if you are up for it, even if it is likely wrong :)