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New York Mag's BlackBerry 10 demo unit dies after only four days - Page 2

post #41 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


They have 70k apps, which is great, but they don't seem to have the right apps. There are some staples I think you need to have from the start, even if you need to pay to have them developed, if you want your ecosystem to be successful.

They are allow working on allowing Android apps to run on the device. I assume it's just a compatible Java runtime which I hope won't affect performance. I guess that could help tremendously but this didn't work out too well for them last time.

 

All the reviews have stated that pretty much 95% of those apps are complete shit or sloppy ports. 

post #42 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Uh, I honestly don't know whats more "Apple-like" than an iPhone- thats the epitome of Apple. Cleaner? When the iPhone was first introduced it was the cleanest looking device Apple had made, and every subsequent version has only gotten cleaner. "Riddled with holes"? I'm pretty sure the Z10 has just as many holes. And things like proximity sensors and earpieces all need holes, there's not a single phone without them. I wouldn't consider the home button a "hole", and thats not going anywhere anytime soon. Quite a bit of reaching in your post. 

But all the pundits said it is boring and some even said it is a piece of cr*p and Apple is doomed....../s
post #43 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

4 days. 

That's interesting; I read it that way at first, too. We must both have insanely-mild, subconscious dyslexia or something. 1tongue.gif

Lol. Yup. It must be dyslexia. Definitely subconscious thing.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #44 of 90

Why is he being such a d*ck? All new tech is going to have bugs and you can't expect a brand new platform to have all the apps.

post #45 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Blackberry will probably get away with it. If there ever any hint of iPhones failing after 10 days, it would be immediately dubbed "10-day-gate," and blown out of proportion by blogs and competitors.

I'm not so sure... The whole "Bold" debacle with quality really hurt them. Not seeing how a repeat of that would bode well when they are so bad off right now.
post #46 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_steve View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

What's up with the black bars at the top and bottom of the device?  That's in addition to the bezel.  Seems like a lot of wasted/non functional space.

I think the Z10 actually looks better than the iPhone, which is riddled with numerous holes for the earpiece, proximity sensor, home button, etc.  Time for Apple to revise the design into something cleaner and more Apple-like.

That picture looks remarkably like the back of an iPhone 5.
post #47 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

They have 70k apps, which is great, but they don't seem to have the right apps. There are some staples I think you need to have from the start, even if you need to pay to have them developed, if you want your ecosystem to be successful.

They are allow working on allowing Android apps to run on the device. I assume it's just a compatible Java runtime which I hope won't affect performance. I guess that could help tremendously but this didn't work out too well for them last time.

Keep in mind the focus. BB has always been focused on business, so those 70K apps are presumably business focused rather than the ones consumers are used to.

Also remember that 95% of apps are garbage on ANY platform. Still, it ultimately comes down to whether they have the apps you need or not.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #48 of 90
Nagromme
Thanks for the chortle. 1
post #49 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Keep in mind the focus. BB has always been focused on business, so those 70K apps are presumably business focused rather than the ones consumers are used to.

Also remember that 95% of apps are garbage on ANY platform. Still, it ultimately comes down to whether they have the apps you need or not.

I am keeping in mind the focus. We are well past a smartphone being used by only business people or geeks. BB needed needs to come out with a device that serves both usage types well out of the box.

I really like they simple swipe to be able to choose from business or personal which will change your app layout. To me this is brilliant. Not that others haven't thought of this in the past but they made it as simple as I can imagine to execute. To me that says BB knows very well that this needs to be business and personal, not just one or the other.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #50 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

All the reviews have stated that pretty much 95% of those apps are complete shit or sloppy ports. 

I'll laugh at the irony if their Android app emulator makes for better apps than their native SDK.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #51 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Why is he being such a d*ck? All new tech is going to have bugs and you can't expect a brand new platform to have all the apps.

It might even have a new standby feature where to get it to turn on you have to shout "wake up" and then bang on it.

I think they'll do fine with the Z10, it's the most impressive development I've seen from RIM since the iPhone made their smartphones look like junk. It has solid features, looks very smooth and still has added appeal for business customers:



http://www.tomshardware.com/news/BlackBerry-Z10-Launch-Record-Breaking-Sales,20966.html

They might not be able to reverse a lot of the sales they've lost to the iPhone and Android phones but it's a good effort. That exposé feature would have been nice to have in iOS. Swipe up from the bottom and you see all the app windows and just tap one to bring forward.
post #52 of 90
Quote:
RIM has made a few hand-made, and hand checked units for special delivery to the press as samples. They presumably got more scrutiny than normal production devices.

 

My experience, from being on both sides of handing out demo devices, is that there's always a point where management demands that production, "Scrounge up a few more, to send to these extra reviewers"... and that's when devices that didn't test so well, get yanked back into service.  

 

Unfortunately, this unit failed and this reviewer thought it was more important to make a joke, than to call Blackberry and ask for a replacement to try again.


Edited by KDarling - 2/9/13 at 8:17am
post #53 of 90

Quite an appropriate metaphor for the company as a whole. 

post #54 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

My experience, from being on both sides of handing out demo devices, is that there's always a point where management demands that production, "Scrounge up a few more, to send to these extra reviewers"... and that's when devices that didn't test so well, get yanked back into service.  


Unfortunately, the unit failed and this reviewer thought it was more important to make a joke, than to call Blackberry and ask for a replacement to try again.

That's just it. Management isn't doing their job well if they are wanted more units scrounged up at the last minute with little to no QA testing. While it's still possible for CE to die after it's been checked thoroughly the odds are significantly lower which is why every single demo unit needs to be thoroughly checked before it leaves RiM's possession.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #55 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


That's just it. Management isn't doing their job well if they are wanted more units scrounged up at the last minute with little to no QA testing. While it's still possible for CE to die after it's been checked thoroughly the odds are significantly lower which is why every single demo unit needs to be thoroughly checked before it leaves RiM's possession.

 

That'd be great, but it's kind of like claiming there should never be any dud bombs, or failed aircraft engines, or exploding shuttle rockets, because they should've all been thoroughly checked.

 

Sounds wonderful, but real life isn't like that.   Plus perhaps I'm wrong.  Maybe they DID check each unit, and this was just bad luck.

 

Although I do agree that management is usually the problem :)

post #56 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

That'd be great, but it's kind of like claiming there should never be any dud bombs, or failed aircraft engines, or exploding shuttle rockets, because they should've all been thoroughly checked.

Sounds wonderful, but real life isn't like that.

Sure, it can still happen (which I addressed) but you said the guy should not report it to his readers (which you refer to as making a joke). It's not his responsibility to do QA checks on a demo unit before he writes about it. His job is to use the device he receives and anything short of clear damage during shipping would be unethical.
Edited by SolipsismX - 2/9/13 at 8:34am

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #57 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

One only has to refer to RIM's past history, specifically the Storm (read the comments here) to know just what insurmountable odds the Z10 is up against, if RIM is to have any hope of recapturing their lost marketshare.

There is no room for errors like this, after the Storm debacle.

Nokia has a rich uncle named Ballmer. He can help, in return for something.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #58 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucklehead View Post

I like my iPhone but it's not like Apple hasn't had defective units before. If this type of failure with the Z10 becomes commonplace, then there might be an actual issue. Otherwise, it's just an unfortunate occurrence that is not representative of the brand/device.
 

 

 

Except that at this point, BB can't afford *any* negative press, for any reason. The company and their product *must* shine, in every way. 

 

Apple can get away with that whole Maps fiasco and still knock it out of the park in sales. Because overall, the iPhone is . . . the iPhone. A description of the strengths of the platform isn't even necessary at this point. It's all obvious and firmly in the public consciousness. 

 

BlackBerry (er . .  RIM, or whatever), can't afford to let any wrinkles show that will further demonstrate to the industry and the market alike that they're a dead-company-walking. Because that's all they've been showing for several years now. Giving consumers and pundits yet another reason (no matter how silly it might seem to those very conversant in tech) to roll their eyes at BlackBerry - each time it happens - is like another nail in the coffin. 

 

What Apple and Google can get away with, BlackBerry can't.

post #59 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_steve View Post

I think the Z10 actually looks better than the iPhone, which is riddled with numerous holes for the earpiece, proximity sensor, home button, etc.  Time for Apple to revise the design into something cleaner and more Apple-like.


A difference of one hole is hardly the difference between "riddled" and not. It doesn't sound like you know what an iPhone is like. The proximity sensor and front camera doesn't involve any holes, and it looks like the Z10 is similarly featured, just having those devices located slightly differently. There pretty much has to be a hole for the earpiece. The Z10 has an earpiece hole too, just above the glass instead of on the glass.

In short, the Z10 subtracts ONE hole - the home button. That's nice, I guess, not really a ground breaking thing that would swing a purchase choice. I think there are equivalent arguments that can be made on a physical home button vs. virtual. I think it has to do with interrupts and division of clock cycles.
post #60 of 90
Jacking the thread a bit because I think the faulty Z10 topic has been played out by now…


There are two features I really like about BB10 and hope Apple adopts.

  • BlackBerry Balance — I would prefer if Apple's was more intelligence than what BB appears to be offering but I love the concept.
  • Screen sharing — I use this with Macs and Windows often but then having to walk someone through an otherwise simple setup or having them try to explain what is going on in iOS can be nerve racking. Even trying to get them to take a screenshot and send it to you can be a chore.

I also like that they are thinking outside the box with their new intuitive keyboard but I am not convinced it will be faster than simply typing. There seems to be a dramatic shift in how we think to go from tapping on a letter to swiping up a word and then back to tapping on letters. My guess is that this won't be the most natural and fluid way to type, but good for long words you can't spell.




PS: They have also done a bang up job on their website: http://us.blackberry.com/smartphones/blackberry-z10.html
Edited by SolipsismX - 2/9/13 at 9:50am

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #61 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Why is he being such a d*ck? All new tech is going to have bugs and you can't expect a brand new platform to have all the apps.

I agree. It is unfortunate that the unit was defective, but wouldn't it be more informative if he just contacted BB for another device and just mention the first one died in the final review? This seems abnormally cruel. Is he a reviewer or a blogger? I hate these stupid Dear John letters in tech reviews. They serve no purpose for any product.
post #62 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSteelers View Post

I agree. It is unfortunate that the unit was defective, but wouldn't it be more informative if he just contacted BB for another device and just mention the first one died in the final review? This seems abnormally cruel. Is he a reviewer or a blogger? I hate these stupid Dear John letters in tech reviews. They serve no purpose for any product.

I disagree with any implication that he should have kept it hush hush but I do agree that he was overly harsh and glib about it.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #63 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I disagree with any implication that he should have kept it hush hush but I do agree that he was overly harsh and glib about it.

I'm not saying to be quiet about it, just see if he can get another one to thoroughly test it out before being a wise-ass. I will never get one, but I am curious about some of the features. That is done all the time where a reviewer has issues with one device bit gets another one and correctly says that the first device had issues, but the second one was ok and did performed like this or that. Now if the second one had issues as well then all bets are off, but at least give it a second chance.
post #64 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX 
They have also done a bang up job on their website: http://us.blackberry.com/smartphones/blackberry-z10.html

They have demo videos showing the UI:

http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_literature.mp4
http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_entrepreneur.mp4
http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_fashion.mp4
http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_movie.mp4
http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_music.mp4

The website plays an audio track over them but they have a lot of similar parts in the videos. People will have to stretch to reach that cancel button on the 4.2" screen with one hand because the top and bottom bezels are quite large:

post #65 of 90
Originally Posted by iSteelers View Post
I hate these stupid Dear John letters in tech reviews. They serve no purpose for any product.

 

They can occasionally get some companies off their hind quarters, but you're right; it probably wasn't the best way to handle the situation this time.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #66 of 90

All those videos are mostly identical. They have one part at the beginning that appears to be focused on the feature like literature or music but they are still just showing how to take and send a picture of a typewriter and music keyboard, respectively. The rest is the same. Perhaps the sound you mention is unique to each video hence the lack of it in any of the videos. Never seen anything like this before as marketing.
Edited by SolipsismX - 2/9/13 at 12:03pm

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #67 of 90
Young kids know how to take screen shots on a iDevice and sending it via email is also easy.
Seriously what is wrong with people who refuse to take the effort to learn things.
Anyway knowing how a person got to their error screen is more important than the screen itself.
post #68 of 90
Too bad, the phone looks great and I love the gestures they added for closing apps. If only Apple could bring that touch-sensitive bezel with a few easy gestures!
post #69 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


They have demo videos showing the UI:

http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_literature.mp4
http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_entrepreneur.mp4
http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_fashion.mp4
http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_movie.mp4
http://dilbjkjns1wot.cloudfront.net/static/videos/global/desktop_music.mp4

The website plays an audio track over them but they have a lot of similar parts in the videos. People will have to stretch to reach that cancel button on the 4.2" screen with one hand because the top and bottom bezels are quite large:

 

I already need to stretch my hand right now on my iPhone 5, and I've got average hands. It looks worse on the blackberry yes, but I hope that J. Ive will do a great work and simply take that back button at the bottom, as it is in all android phones, it's a lot easier that way.

post #70 of 90

This appears to be yet another poorly written unsubstantiated claim against the BlackBerry Z10. 

 

The New York Times has also written similar attacks on the Z10 claiming that sales are poor.  One example that comes to mind is walking into one or two stores to find the Z10 isn't selling.  This doesn't take into consideration that it is a Tuesday morning or that many sales have come from online pre-order sales.  The author then goes on to say that an Apple store is busy but with no research into why people are in the Apple Store (are they buying? Window Shopping? Or having their Iphone repaired?)  Poor jornalism to make conclustions on anecdotal research.  Feel free to Goolgle New York Times articles about the Z10.  Also check out EBay (Blackberry Z10).

 

With regards to this article I would like to know how hard he shook the Z10 to cause a failure and to repeat on an Android, an Iphone, and another Z10 before drawing conclusions.  More poor analysis.

 

Wall Street has about 140 million shares against blackberry shorted (make money when the share-price goes down) Blackberry was written off until the release of the Z10, the Q10 (keyboard version coming soon), and four new products coming based on new BB10 OS.   Many of these short positions were entered when BB was trading at $10 and now it's close to $17 and poised to go higher!  Big Losses!

 

We all trust wall street don't we?  Think mortgage backed securites, Think camp out protests, think analysts saying BlackBerry is uninvestable and share price going to go to zero, think, think, think.

 

Question everything your read about Blackberry and their motives.

 

For disclosure I'm long Blackberry as I believe they have an excellent new product which is good for all consumers given that we live in a competive marketplace.

 

PS Interesting how all reviews seem to put Blackberry against Android and Apple the dominent players even though Blackberry all but fell off the map.

 

Most reviews I've read from people using this new phone are excellent!  Try the carrier review sections such as Telus or Rogers in Canada.

post #71 of 90

Up here in Canada, the new BlackBerries are already causing a bit of a stir.  It's already the best selling BB device at launch ever.  

 

While no doubt there will be some challenges and shortcomings, I think BlackBerry will be able to make it.  The Q10 is especially interesting, a decent sized 720 by 720 touchscreen plus a physical keyboard is very nice.  

 

Edit - Would also like to add the reviews on Telus' website from customers are stellar...

 

http://www.telusmobility.com/en/AB/blackberry_z10/index.shtml?INTCMP=BlackBerrytradeinBB10

 

If you look around Telus' website you'll actually find despite the iPhone having it's own category, the reviews are not nearly as good as the Blackberry Z10...


Edited by Mikeb85 - 2/9/13 at 1:44pm
post #72 of 90
Originally Posted by Long BB View Post
PS Interesting how all reviews seem to put Blackberry against Android and Apple the dominent players even though Blackberry all but fell off the map.

 

Why would that be interesting in and of itself? Of course they're going to be rated against the ones in the industry that actually matter. Because rating them against the ones that don't matter is stupid.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply
post #73 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Long BB View Post

This appears to be yet another poorly written unsubstantiated claim against the BlackBerry Z10. 

 

The New York Times has also written similar attacks on the Z10 claiming that sales are poor.  One example that comes to mind is walking into one or two stores to find the Z10 isn't selling.  This doesn't take into consideration that it is a Tuesday morning or that many sales have come from online pre-order sales.  The author then goes on to say that an Apple store is busy but with no research into why people are in the Apple Store (are they buying? Window Shopping? Or having their Iphone repaired?)  Poor jornalism to make conclustions on anecdotal research.  Feel free to Goolgle New York Times articles about the Z10.  Also check out EBay (Blackberry Z10).

 

With regards to this article I would like to know how hard he shook the Z10 to cause a failure and to repeat on an Android, an Iphone, and another Z10 before drawing conclusions.  More poor analysis.

 

Wall Street has about 140 million shares against blackberry shorted (make money when the share-price goes down) Blackberry was written off until the release of the Z10, the Q10 (keyboard version coming soon), and four new products coming based on new BB10 OS.   Many of these short positions were entered when BB was trading at $10 and now it's close to $17 and poised to go higher!  Big Losses!

 

We all trust wall street don't we?  Think mortgage backed securites, Think camp out protests, think analysts saying BlackBerry is uninvestable and share price going to go to zero, think, think, think.

 

Question everything your read about Blackberry and their motives.

 

For disclosure I'm long Blackberry as I believe they have an excellent new product which is good for all consumers given that we live in a competive marketplace.

 

PS Interesting how all reviews seem to put Blackberry against Android and Apple the dominent players even though Blackberry all but fell off the map.

 

Most reviews I've read from people using this new phone are excellent!  Try the carrier review sections such as Telus or Rogers in Canada.

 

No viable ecosystem. Nothing revolutionary brought to the table. 

 

It's merely adequate, and barely, at that. And adequate just isn't enough in the dynamics of the current market. 

post #74 of 90

BlackBerry (RIM) has always made very durable hardware, however, they did fall way behind but no more.  Guess some Iphone users have quickly forgotten antenae problems, scratching, and many cracked/ broken screens.

 

I've dropped my BlackBerry a few times and hardly a scratch,  still looks new. I'm happy to see them back in the game with the Z10 and Q10 (coming).

 

This article lacks credibility - see my other post.

post #75 of 90
Originally Posted by Long BB View Post
Guess some Iphone users have quickly forgotten antenae problems, scratching, and many cracked/ broken screens.

 

Is this a claim that BlackBerry devices will (and have) had immaculate reception, never scratch, and, when dropped, will not have a broken screen?


…hardly a scratch…

 

So hypocrisy, then.


This article lacks credibility…

 

So the device didn't fail after four days? Glad you know. Seems it did, and that he tried everything a user would reasonably try to fix it. It's possible that, because he didn't mention it here:


I removed and replaced your battery, tried to manually reset you, and even connected you to my laptop to see if I could revive you that way. But you stayed there, motionless and dark, the lifeblood drained from your mini-USB port.

 

…he did not attempt to charge the device and the battery was simply dead, but that would require the device to, by design, not charge when plugged into a computer, which seems silly.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #76 of 90

BlackBerry only needs to be in 3rd place as a niche player to be successful and profitable that's why.  Seems they've been elevated to 3rd already and challenging Apple and Android, that's why.

post #77 of 90

If you'd like, we have a quote feature where you can reference the specific text to which you're replying. It's this button in the bottom right. 

 

 

Ignore "Reply"; that does nothing. "Multi" is for quoting multiple posts at once (which you finalize by hitting "Quote" on the last one you want).

 

Originally Posted by Long BB View Post
BlackBerry only needs to be in 3rd place as a niche player to be successful and profitable that's why.  Seems they've been elevated to 3rd already and challenging Apple and Android, that's why.

 

Do they? And have they? There's no doubt that it has name presence, but that's all anyone ever has when they start from scratch.

 

I have my doubts that a meaningful operating profit can be made outside the Apple/Android complex, but we'll have to see. And everyone is challenging iOS and Android. Success, however, is a wholly different story. If anything, BlackBerry is 4th, behind Windows Phone 8.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #78 of 90
It's interesting that Blackberry has jumped into bed with android with regards to apps.
The question is, do/will have their own App Store ? Going forward how will they QA source from android developers ? As we all know android is a fragmented malware-infested space, I don't think Blackberry should have anything to do with android, but I do understand why they did it.
post #79 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

 

Hahahaha...your post made me laugh. Apple makes a phone with the least number of openings and gets blasted because there's not a hole to change out the battery, or another to add more memory. and dam Apple for not having a USB port or two. 

 

They're counting every hole in the speaker grille agains the iPhone!

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #80 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post

I already need to stretch my hand right now on my iPhone 5, and I've got average hands. It looks worse on the blackberry yes, but I hope that J. Ive will do a great work and simply take that back button at the bottom, as it is in all android phones, it's a lot easier that way.

I don't really get the intense focus on using a phone single-handed. The number of times I've been restricted to just one hand is minimal.
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