or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple's Ive on naming products: 'We're really quite careful with the words we use'
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple's Ive on naming products: 'We're really quite careful with the words we use' - Page 2

post #41 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

And dots are zero length lines.

I would argue that a dot has length and width, just that it's quite minute. I would use the word point to refer to a zero-length line, which is often represented by a dot simply because it's impossible for us to make something visual giving it at both dimensions. 1biggrin.gif

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Reply

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Reply
post #42 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

So much for doubling-down on security ¡

LOL at the box remark. Over here some use it to refer to a woman's, well, can't use the C word I presume.

But you can call a show "Blue Peter", ha ha ha. I know, I know, 8th grade humor, but it keeps me young.
post #43 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

 

Unsurprised. All part of natural selection.

 

Well it started with "Apple is (currently) restricted (by it's design language)" and then waffled off into a description of "Snow White" which hasn't been relevant or even in use in a decade.  

It failed to mention anything about the HIG which would have been more relevant to the point.  

post #44 of 97

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/5/13 at 3:33pm
post #45 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina View Post

Not sure what his comments have to do with the naming of products.  Seems it's more about not having a name define the path you go down when designing a product.

Title should be "...Ive's on designing products..." Apple wants to find their own solutions without preconceived design decisions. This is not a new approach to designing. I was exposed to it in the Architectural program at UC Berkeley in the early 1970s.  It served me well!

Cubist
Reply
Cubist
Reply
post #46 of 97
He wasn't just talking about the product names, but also about the fact that words can hinder ideas during the development process.
post #47 of 97
Actually he is talking about the creative brief here rather than naming the actual product.
post #48 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post


The HIG governs software (and only third-party software; internally Apple takes liberties with their own HIG), while Snow White was about hardware design.

 

Indeed. (Important to note, however, that there was significant synergy between Bill Atkinson and Esslinger, the father of Snow White design language.)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

Well it started with "Apple is (currently) restricted (by it's design language)" and then waffled off into a description of "Snow White" which hasn't been relevant or even in use in a decade.  

It failed to mention anything about the HIG which would have been more relevant to the point.  

 

So tell us why HIG would be more relevant to industrial design than Snow White. In my simple, irrelevant world, the term design language is used much more often in industrial design than software UI. But hey, do tell as I am here to learn.

post #49 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Well it started with "Apple is (currently) restricted (by it's design language)" and then waffled off into a description of "Snow White" which hasn't been relevant or even in use in a decade.  
It failed to mention anything about the HIG which would have been more relevant to the point.  

This is what some refer to as doubling down on stupid. Quit while you're behind.
post #50 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

Indeed. (Important to note, however, that there was significant synergy between Bill Atkinson and Esslinger, the father of Snow White design language.)


So tell us why HIG would be more relevant to industrial design than Snow White. In my simple, irrelevant world, the term design language is used much more often in industrial design than software UI. But hey, do tell as I am here to learn.

Is it necessary to keep baiting him? Is it necessary to digress into another pissing match, knowing his record of never giving ground even when wrong?
post #51 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I would argue that a dot has length and width, just that it's quite minute. I would use the word point to refer to a zero-length line, which is often represented by a dot simply because it's impossible for us to make something visual giving it at both dimensions. 1biggrin.gif

You're correct. Point was the word I was trying to convey.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #52 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I would argue that a dot has length and width, just that it's quite minute. I would use the word point to refer to a zero-length line, which is often represented by a dot simply because it's impossible for us to make something visual giving it at both dimensions. 1biggrin.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


You're correct. Point was the word I was trying to convey.

 

I could be wrong, but AFAIK there is no formal definition of a dot in math. But a point is formally defined as being dimensionless and therefore cannot be considered to have zero length.

post #53 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

But a point is formally defined as being dimensionless and therefore cannot be considered to have zero length.

There are two kinds of points in geometry. There is the zero-dimensional point as being discussed previously and there is the lesser-known point-free geometry that I only know about in concept but couldn't explain even on my best day. The latter one appears to fall into your dimensionless notion.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Reply

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Reply
post #54 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I would argue that a dot has length and width, just that it's quite minute. I would use the word point to refer to a zero-length line, which is often represented by a dot simply because it's impossible for us to make something visual giving it at both dimensions. 1biggrin.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


You're correct. Point was the word I was trying to convey.

 

I could be wrong, but AFAIK there is no formal definition of a dot in math. But a point is formally defined as being dimensionless and therefore cannot be considered to have zero length.

 

 

What's your dot?

 

SOT... it looks like an iTaco

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #55 of 97

I don't care what Apple calls one of the iPads that I own. As far as I'm concerned it's the iPad 3, not the new iPad, since it isn't exactly new anymore, and there's an iPad 4 out. As a matter of fact, people can't even buy "the new iPad" anymore.

post #56 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

 

What's your dot?

 

SOT... it looks like an iTaco


Getting personal, aren't we? ;-)

post #57 of 97

Watch out Jony, Woz says Apple is losing its cool and has to rely more on its brand now.

 

http://www.cultofmac.com/216693/woz-apples-dangerously-close-to-losing-its-cool/

post #58 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Watch out Jony, Woz says Apple is losing its cool and has to rely more on its brand now.

 

http://www.cultofmac.com/216693/woz-apples-dangerously-close-to-losing-its-cool/

And that guy still gets a paycheck from Apple, what a joke.

 

What he may have done or accomplished many decades ago does not make up for the non stop negative Apple comments every time that guy opens his mouth lately.

post #59 of 97

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/5/13 at 3:33pm
post #60 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

And that guy still gets a paycheck from Apple, what a joke.

 

What he may have done or accomplished many decades ago does not make up for the non stop negative Apple comments every time that guy opens his mouth lately.

I don't expect Woz to be an Apple fanboy but I scratch my head why he feels the need to say this stuff all the time.  Why not keep his mouth shut and if he really is worried take it up with Tim Cook?    I mean he has to know every time he says this stuff it's broadcast all over the web. 1rolleyes.gif

post #61 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

"Paycheck"?  What is his job title?

I'm not sure what his job title is, but it should be anti-Apple propagandist.

 

I think that I remember reading that Woz still collects a small paycheck from Apple. It's not a big sum.


Edited by Apple ][ - 2/20/13 at 11:29am
post #62 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I don't expect Woz to be an Apple fanboy but I scratch my head why he feels the need to say this stuff all the time.  Why not keep his mouth shut and if he really is worried take it up with Tim Cook?    I mean he has to know every time he says this stuff it's broadcast all over the web. 1rolleyes.gif

Yeah, there is so much FUD spread around about Apple now. Isn't there enough rumors, lies and worthless opinions around, that we certainly don't need Woz adding to the heap?

 

Whenever I see an article with Apple and Woz in the title, I know that I am going to get pissed off before I even click on it.

post #63 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

And that guy still gets a paycheck from Apple, what a joke.

 

What he may have done or accomplished many decades ago does not make up for the non stop negative Apple comments every time that guy opens his mouth lately.


Maybe we should cut the man some slack. No Woz, no Apple. Furthermore, he did suffer a serious head injury.

post #64 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I'm not sure what his job title is, but it should be anti-Apple propagandist.

 

I think that I remember reading that Woz still collects a small paycheck from Apple. It's not a big sum.


$100k/yr, if I remember correctly. No meager sum either.

post #65 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


Maybe we should cut the man some slack. No Woz, no Apple. Furthermore, he did suffer a serious head injury.

 

Yeah, I believe that he was in some sort of airplane crash a long time ago.

 

And yes of course he was extremely important to Apple in the beginning, I don't think that anybody is denying that.

 

I just think that it's poor form for him to be going around and making comments that are not positive for Apple. It would be better if he said nothing at all, IMO. It's like walking around and trashing one of your family members in public, it's just not a cool thing to do.

post #66 of 97

deleted


Edited by MacRulez - 7/5/13 at 3:32pm
post #67 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


$100k/yr, if I remember correctly. No meager sum either.

I'm not sure if this is still accurate or up to date, but according to this, he receives a bit less than 100k per year.

 

As employee No. 1, Woz still receives a nominal salary of about $12,000 per year from Apple. 

 

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.09/woz_pr.html

post #68 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I'm not sure if this is still accurate or up to date, but according to this, he receives a bit less than 100k per year.

 

As employee No. 1, Woz still receives a nominal salary of about $12,000 per year from Apple. 

 

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.09/woz_pr.html


Could be. I am working from memory, and didn't bother searching.

post #69 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

Yeah, I believe that he was in some sort of airplane crash a long time ago.

 

And yes of course he was extremely important to Apple in the beginning, I don't think that anybody is denying that.

 

I just think that it's poor form for him to be going around and making comments that are not positive for Apple. It would be better if he said nothing at all, IMO. It's like walking around and trashing one of your family members in public, it's just not a cool thing to do.


I think he suffered some form of amnesia. This is pure conjecture, but perhaps that also affected his emotion ties to Apple. Furthermore, Steve Jobs was not one to hold his mouth. I don't think too many Apple admirers admonished his "freedom of speech" when he was alive. So why apply a different standard to Woz?

post #70 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

And there's nothing square (all definitions) about it. Lol
Have you seen one ?
post #71 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts View Post

Have you seen one ?

Many more than you have, and in person.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #72 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Apple 
[" url="/t/156080/apples-ive-on-naming-products-were-really-quite-careful-with-the-words-we-use/60#post_2281180"]Yeah, there is so much FUD spread around about Apple now. Isn't there enough rumors, lies and worthless opinions around, that we certainly don't need Woz adding to the heap?

Whenever I see an article with Apple and Woz in the title, I know that I am going to get pissed off before I even click on it.

Woz is welcome to his opinion. And I'm welcome to not care.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #73 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez View Post

"Paycheck"?  What is his job title?

I'm not sure what his job title is, but it should be anti-Apple propagandist.

 

I think that I remember reading that Woz still collects a small paycheck from Apple. It's not a big sum.

 

When Woz left Apple, he kept his employee number -- but he has no title, no job at Apple and does not receive a paycheck.

 

AIR, Woz sold (and gifted to family) most of his AAPL stock in the 1980s.  Later, when Apple was suffering hard times, I believe Woz invested a large sum in AAPL as a very public statement of support.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #74 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


Maybe we should cut the man some slack. No Woz, no Apple. ...

 

Not true. 

 

No Steve Jobs == no Apple.  

No Woz == slightly slower to start, and not quite as good at first, Apple.  

 

His skills were rare at the time, but not unique.  

post #75 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I'm not sure what his job title is, but it should be anti-Apple propagandist.

 

I think that I remember reading that Woz still collects a small paycheck from Apple. It's not a big sum.


$100k/yr, if I remember correctly. No meager sum either.

 

I believe you are wrong.  I'd be interested to see any citation.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #76 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


Maybe we should cut the man some slack. No Woz, no Apple. ...

 

Not true. 

 

No Steve Jobs == no Apple.  

No Woz == slightly slower to start, and not quite as good at first, Apple.  

 

His skills were rare at the time, but not unique.  

 

No way to prove this one way or another…

 

But I suggest to you that both Steve's personalities -- one of bulldog bluster,  and one with  nerdy naïveté -- were the perfect combination to create the Apple Computer.

 

From what I know (and observed) at that time:

  • No tech engineer but Woz would have tolerated Jobs
  • No one but Jobs could have motivated and targeted the energies of Woz
  • and then there was Mike Markkula -- with the business acumen and sensitivity to catalyze the two Steve's abilities and make Apple into a viable business
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #77 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

From what I know (and observed) at that time:
  • No tech engineer but Woz would have tolerated Jobs
  • No one but Jobs could have motivated and targeted the energies of Woz
  • and then there was Mike Markkula -- with the business acumen and sensitivity to catalyze the two Steve's abilities and make Apple into a viable business
[/quote]

Excellent points!
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
Reply
post #78 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

I believe you are wrong.  I'd be interested to see any citation.

I found one reference to him getting about 120K per year. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Wozniak#cite_note-iWoz-1

 

Woz kinda jokes off the question, saying he doesn't even look at the paychecks. Says maybe a couple hundred every two weeks or something. 

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/08/25/exp.piers.wozniak.jobs.reaction.cnn#/video/bestoftv/2011/08/25/exp.piers.wozniak.jobs.reaction.cnn

melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #79 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

No way to prove this one way or another…

But I suggest to you that both Steve's personalities -- one of bulldog bluster,  and one with  nerdy naïveté -- were the perfect combination to create the Apple Computer.

From what I know (and observed) at that time:
  • No tech engineer but Woz would have tolerated Jobs
  • No one but Jobs could have motivated and targeted the energies of Woz
  • and then there was Mike Markkula -- with the business acumen and sensitivity to catalyze the two Steve's abilities and make Apple into a viable business

I agree with all your points but I'd like to propose a what if scenario: What if they had never met?

We know Woz was a brilliant engineer, he likely have continued to work at HP, and likely still be one of the many multi-millionaires that came out of Silicon Valley at that time. But would he be a household name? I think it's much less likely without Jobs.

Now Jobs is a more tricky because his character embodies the entrepreneur which is no different than an explorer or adventurer in business. He is the risk taker. He is a thrill seeker. He is a gambler. He may have found another brilliant engineer and still started Apple or some other company that became just as successful. That part of this personality allows him to not require Woz but other talented people in many other fields in which to focus his will into a reality.

Regardless of whatever scenario may have been I'd quite happy to live in a timeline where Woz and Jobs did make history and Apple has pushed the rest of the world in creating better products for 4 decades.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Reply

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

Reply
post #80 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

No way to prove this one way or another…

But I suggest to you that both Steve's personalities -- one of bulldog bluster,  and one with  nerdy naïveté -- were the perfect combination to create the Apple Computer.

From what I know (and observed) at that time:
  • No tech engineer but Woz would have tolerated Jobs
  • No one but Jobs could have motivated and targeted the energies of Woz
  • and then there was Mike Markkula -- with the business acumen and sensitivity to catalyze the two Steve's abilities and make Apple into a viable business

I agree with all your points but I'd like to propose a what if scenario: What if they had never met?

We know Woz was a brilliant engineer, he likely have continued to work at HP, and likely still be one of the many multi-millionaires that came out of Silicon Valley at that time. But would he be a household name? I think it's much less likely without Jobs.

Now Jobs is a more tricky because his character embodies the entrepreneur which is no different than an explorer or adventurer in business. He is the risk taker. He is a thrill seeker. He is a gambler. He may have found another brilliant engineer and still started Apple or some other company that became just as successful. That part of this personality allows him to not require Woz but other talented people in many other fields in which to focus his will into a reality.

Regardless of whatever scenario may have been I'd quite happy to live in a timeline where Woz and Jobs did make history and Apple has pushed the rest of the world in creating better products for 4 decades.

 

I suspect that Woz would have been successful at being a good engineer, doing breakthrough [oddball] things and having fun.  I do not think he would have become a multimillionaire -- he was not motivated by money.

 

Jobs, I did not know well enough, but I suspect that you are correct -- he was driven, I think, by his view of perfection -- and money [or anything/anyone else that]  could be the means to that end.

 

Here's a little different way of saying it:

  • Woz would never release a "thing" he wasn't proud of
  • Jobs would strive for the perfect "thing", but was practical enough to release what was within his grasp... as a stepping-stone to perfection

 

Or:

  • Woz could be satisfied -- and move on
  • Jobs could never be satisfied

 

And... I'm a piss-poor armchair analyst

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Apple's Ive on naming products: 'We're really quite careful with the words we use'